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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: DonTom on June 29, 2021, 12:51:33 PM
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Here in Reno, it was only 100F/ 38C, today, so I decided to warm up a bit and take a nice ride out to the middle of the desert east of here where it was a bit warmer and all in bright sunlight. :)
I took my 2017 Zero DS, with the 7.2KWH battery (the 6.5 KWH battery was replaced under warranty). All was fine charging at Silver Springs. But from there, I had to ride to Carson City for my next charge, around 35 miles at an average speed of perhaps around 60 MPH, some hills. Very hot in the middle of the day. And full bright sunshine, no shade.
The first thing I noticed was when I went down a hill, I would have regen for about one second and then NONE at all. And I mean NONE. And I mean A LOT LESS than Zero Regen as set in the Custom Mode. When I lost the regen, I thought my drive belt broke as I went down the hill. The bike has never coasted like that before, even with regen set at 0 in custom mode. It was picking up speed very fast with the throttle all the way back to nothing as I went down hills. Much like my Energica with Regen OFF, but I didn't expect that to happen on a Zero.
At first, I had no idea what was going on.
But when I got to Carson City to recharge, it became clear. I could NOT charge at all, I had my hot indicator on the dash which I have never even seen before. I didn't even know I had such.
So I want to pass on some of the info. I discovered today about charging in the heat.
The battery stops charging at 50C / 122F according to the Zero Voltage App (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bitshape.zero_voltage&hl=en_US&gl=US).
It takes a long time for the battery to cool down-- a lot longer than charging at anything above 3KW to a full charge. At least on a very hot day like today. I charged in the shade at the Hampton Hotel (https://www.plugshare.com/location/85720) after around a 40 minute wait to charge. I than tried the full charge and a 6KW and I got another 10 SOC before it started to overheat and shut off again when it hit 50C. Perhaps a 3KW charge would not have overheated, but will still take longer to get that 10% increase which was enough to get to the Tamarack Casino in Reno where I can also charge.
After that ride, it was too hot to charge again, even though I kept the bike in Eco mode and stayed off the freeway. I had the over heat alarm again, but now am only have the OBC plugged into the bike from the J-1772 station. Still in alarm, still overheating, not charging. I left it this way as I went for dinner with ChargePoint sending me these E-mails:
"Dear Donald,
We wanted to let you know that your vehicle, which is charging at SULLYS WEST LOT / TAMARACK STA1, is drawing very little power. Typically, this means it's fully charged, however, it may also indicate that your vehicle is configured for delayed charging. Your vehicle has accepted 0.00 kWh of electricity and has been plugged in for 00:15:07 (hh:mm:ss).
Team ChargePoint"
After I ate, I came back to the bike, and to my surprise, it is now charging. I did NOT have to reset anything. So the bike will go from an over heat alarm and start charging on its own when the battery cools down a bit. I than added in one 2.5 KW charger and got another 10 SOC, overheated again, but I then had more than enough to get home.
So both times, with 6 KW as well as with 3 KW, I got 10 more SOC before overheating, which makes me think I should just use the higher power when it is over heated as I will still get a 10 SOC gain before it shuts off from overheating.
My advice:
Leave your Zero at home on very hot days if you are going far enough to need a recharge. I probably spent most of the day today waiting for my battery to cool down so I can charge and get home. I got home hours later than I would have on a cool day.
FWIW, the bike ran fine in the heat, and the NO regen at all, I liked. I wonder why we cannot set it like that in custom. I think when we set it to zero regen in custom, there is still some regen, just too low to read, but enough to slow the bike down, very unlike what I experienced today where there was no doubt there was no regen at all, with the bike going downhill picking up speed fast at no throttle. The downside was I had to use full brakes when I came to stoplights and go no regen when I wanted it at slower speeds.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Probably was a bad idea to make the battery box black.
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A couple of years ago one of the monthly print motorcycle magazines (it might have been Motorcycle Consumer News), before they all went out of business, had the same issue with the new Zero SR with a Charge Tank that they were testing in the LA area during the summer. The battery overheated and wouldn't accept an L2 charge. They were really pissed and said so in their review. Apparently, motorcycle magazine testers don't like to be stranded at a charging station on a hot day waiting for the compact Zero battery to take its own sweet time to cool off. ;)
I never have that problem with my Zero. I feel fortunate when I see a temperature of 75 degrees F during my local rides. Right now it is foggy, drizzly and 52 degrees F. Our June Gloom has arrived. :(
BTW, it is not a good time to go riding in Oregon, Washington, or British Columbia. Portland hit 116 F yesterday, Seattle 107 and one location in British Columbia made it to 116 F yesterday with 118 being predicted for the high today. :o The Zero battery sure wouldn't like those temperatures.
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A couple of years ago one of the monthly print motorcycle magazines (it might have been Motorcycle Consumer News), before they all went out of business, had the same issue with the new Zero SR with a Charge Tank that they were testing in the LA area during the summer. The battery overheated and wouldn't accept an L2 charge. They were really pissed and said so in their review. Apparently, motorcycle magazine testers don't like to be stranded at a charging station on a hot day waiting for the compact Zero battery to take its own sweet time to cool off. ;)
I never have that problem with my Zero. I feel fortunate when I see a temperature of 75 degrees F during my local rides. Right now it is foggy, drizzly and 52 degrees F. Our June Gloom has arrived. :(
BTW, it is not a good time to go riding in Oregon, Washington, or British Columbia. Portland hit 116 F yesterday, Seattle 107 and one location in British Columbia made it to 116 F yesterday with 118 being predicted for the high today. :o The Zero battery sure wouldn't like those temperatures.
Sounds unfortunate. I have an SR, and wanted to move to phoenix sometime. Sounds like I'll need to ditch the bike for something liquid cooled.
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I've been lucking on this forum for a while now, and back when people were going HAM with aftermarket chargers, overheating the battery has come up a lot, especially with extended highway riding or riding in very hot weather and charging. Basic notes are that once the battery gets that warm, it holds the heat for a long time. Its basically cells wrapped in 2 blankets and a case.. not the best thermal engineering. From what I've read, hosing the battery down with water and / or putting a fan on it is the quickest way to cool it down enough to charge. I would expect the SR/S / SR/F to have better cooling properties, as well as any motorcycle from the other 2 big ones out there.
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It seems this is a trade off for not having to deal with coolant, even some air cooled ice motorcycles will overheat on very hot days. One could get creative and mount fan+heatsinks or even mist the exterior of the battery box, as they're filled with a resin that takes the heat from the cells and expels them to the outside of the box, the whole thing is really a giant heatsink. No idea if that would help though.
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Sounds unfortunate. I have an SR, and wanted to move to phoenix sometime. Sounds like I'll need to ditch the bike for something liquid cooled.
Your riding season in Phoenix will simply be the opposite of most cooler places. Winter will be your main riding season.
FWIW, Phoenix is a place I try my best to avoid. Much like Los Angeles. But I love west Tucson and usually go there every year in my RV (with my Zero DS). And Tucson has a Zero dealer as does Phoenix.
Payson is another town I like near Phoenix. Or even Casa Grande. Phoenix is just way too packed with people and cars. Have you been to any of these other palaces. But big fire (https://www.gilacountyaz.gov/news_detail_T5_R32.php) north of Payson right now.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Payson is another town I like near Phoenix. Or even Casa Grande. Phoenix is just way too packed with people and cars. Have you been to any of these other palaces. But big fire (https://www.gilacountyaz.gov/news_detail_T5_R32.php) north of Payson right now.
-Don- Reno, NV
I've been to phoenix a few times when I lived in vegas. They have so many lanes in phoenix, even if there's traffic, it flows. I lived in Denver too long and anything more than 2 lanes is heaven to me. Took Denver 8+ years to widen I-25 by just 2 lanes, and one of them is a toll lane.
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I've been to phoenix a few times when I lived in vegas. They have so many lanes in phoenix, even if there's traffic, it flows. I lived in Denver too long and anything more than 2 lanes is heaven to me.
How bad will Phoenix be going trough in an RV? It's been many years since I have been there, so it sounds likes things have changed for the better.
BTW, Zeros are fine on hot days if you don't need a charge on the road. At home, you can use a fan or whatever to blow some of the heat off the battery as you charge. Just avoid longer trips on very hot days where you could need to recharge when on the road.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Probably was a bad idea to make the battery box black.
You have the opposite problem in the winter.
I get that 'regen failure' about once or twice a month, usually if I've just charged for a ride because I live atop a hill, but I've gotten it when recharging on the road, too.
-Crissa
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I don't know how much it helps, but have read that turning off any regen via the custom profile can help not generate so much heat while riding. That and lower speeds/less acceleration I'm sure could help. Still no quick way to cool down, that battery holds the heat a long time. I wonder if an off board charger would be better than the OBC or Charge Tank even.
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You have the opposite problem in the winter.
I get that 'regen failure' about once or twice a month, usually if I've just charged for a ride because I live atop a hill, but I've gotten it when recharging on the road, too.
-Crissa
Is your FW up to date? I would not expect you to have any charging issues with temperature where you live, with either cold or hot. But you do have an older bike.
But if you're on the top of a hill, like I am here (the very top) it's normal to have no regen at 100 SOC going down the hill to prevent overcharging the battery. That has nothing to do with the battery temp. Tesla also does that, as well as my Energica. Best to only charge to less than 95% and then still have your regen. But on our older Zeros, there is no easy way to shut off at exactly 95% without watching it. I have my DS fully charged right now, so I will have to brake to go down the hill at the 25 MPH (often enforced here with a cop hiding) with no regen.
I can have the Tesla and my Energica stop charging automatically at any SOC I want. But not with either of my Zeros.
Not a big issue. That's an issue I can live with, unlike yesterday when it took three times as long to wait for my battery to cool off than the time for the charge itself. That means four times as long, which is unreasonable. No more long rides on hot days for me on my Zeros.
FWIW, I have also ridden my Energica on days just as hot but with no serious charging issues, perhaps just fast charged a little slower than usual, but not enough difference for me to even notice. But my battery indicator would stay mostly yellow (means just a little warmer than ideal).
-Don- Reno, NV
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Yeah, when it cuts out regen is... weird. It's not directly to displayed SoC, but it's related to it somehow.
I have had rides where regen gets extra-powerful, and rides where it stays turned off, like the bike goes back to some default or forgets to update the regen map.
I assume it's not temperature for me (though my only stranding may have been) but that I live in the mountains and max out regen on downhills frequently and tend to recharge in the cold.
-Crissa
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Yeah, when it cuts out regen is... weird. It's not directly to displayed SoC, but it's related to it somehow.
I have had rides where regen gets extra-powerful, and rides where it stays turned off, like the bike goes back to some default or forgets to update the regen map.
I assume it's not temperature for me (though my only stranding may have been) but that I live in the mountains and max out regen on downhills frequently and tend to recharge in the cold.
-Crissa
Regen is not related to SOC when it's from an overheated battery. I had no regen at 20% SOC yesterday. But being fully charged (even on a cool day) is related to SOC. The battery needs a place to store the extra energy without exceeding the battery's nominal capacity. So the easiest way to deal with that is to have the regen shut off automatically until there is some room in the battery left for it.
But I have wondered what would happen, by such a small amount, if they just let it charge above the nominal capacity to a bit closer to the max battery capacity. I have a hard time believing it can make that much difference, but they do it on every EV made, so there has to be a good reason for it. I mean it is just for a few seconds, or perhaps a minute to get down a hill, so why can't they just leave it at max regen? Perhaps one of the battery experts in this forum can explain that one. Even several thousand watts for a minute isn't all that much when it comes to recharging an EV battery.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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Yeah, when it cuts out regen is... weird. It's not directly to displayed SoC, but it's related to it somehow.
I have had rides where regen gets extra-powerful, and rides where it stays turned off, like the bike goes back to some default or forgets to update the regen map.
I assume it's not temperature for me (though my only stranding may have been) but that I live in the mountains and max out regen on downhills frequently and tend to recharge in the cold.
-Crissa
Regen is not related to SOC when it's from an overheated battery. I had no regen at 20% SOC yesterday. But being fully charged (even on a cool day) is related to SOC. The battery needs a place to store the extra energy without exceeding the battery's nominal capacity. So the easiest way to deal with that is to have the regen shut off automatically until there is some room in the battery left for it.
But I have wondered what would happen, by such a small amount, if they just let it charge above the nominal capacity to a bit closer to the max battery capacity. I have a hard time believing it can make that much difference, but they do it on every EV made, so there has to be a good reason for it. I mean it is just for a few seconds, or perhaps a minute to get down a hill, so why can't they just leave it at max regen? Perhaps one of the battery experts in this forum can explain that one. Even several thousand watts for a minute isn't all that much when it comes to recharging an EV battery.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
Even a slight overcharge would cause a permanently decreased discharge capacity for that cell. If it lasts too long, the cell will pressurize/catch fire/explode. And the effects are cumulative.
The other thing to note is that batteries involve chemical processes. Dumping power into it will cause the voltage to overshoot the target for a brief time, and the reverse is true when you draw a big load. Further, overcharging causes irreversible negative chemical reactions like overgassing and the formation of lithium metal on the anode, and could lead to thermal runaway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuKF8XfCVKQ
To protect against that, if any cell exceeds the upper safety limit, it'll cause the bike to open its contactor and quit while running.
Would not recommend.
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On my SRS, I usually lose regen on the way home. This is in Florida so even at night the temp may be in 80F. Almost every night it happens.
The battery temp display is in the middle of its range when I turn the bike on. I ride 50-70 MPH 10 minutes to a superslab highway, where I then ride 100-115MPH for about 10 minutes. The batter temp is rising the whole time. By the time I hit the highway exit the battery temp is at the top of its range, but has not turned red. The regen is off and I have to use full brakes to stop there. In the slower backroads for the remainder of the trip home, the regen is usually restored by the time I get to the house.
On the way TO work in the mid day when its 90-100F , I rarely lose regen because the traffic does not permit going above 90MPH for extended periods. It used to happen a lot when I first got the bike because I was flying around everyone like an electrical God of the road. I was overheating the motor a lot too in those days. Even put a fan on it. Finally I calmed down.
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Even a slight overcharge would cause a permanently decreased discharge capacity for that cell. If it lasts too long, the cell will pressurize/catch fire/explode. And the effects are cumulative.
The other thing to note is that batteries involve chemical processes. Dumping power into it will cause the voltage to overshoot the target for a brief time, and the reverse is true when you draw a big load. Further, overcharging causes irreversible negative chemical reactions like overgassing and the formation of lithium metal on the anode, and could lead to thermal runaway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuKF8XfCVKQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuKF8XfCVKQ)
To protect against that, if any cell exceeds the upper safety limit, it'll cause the bike to open its contactor and quit while running.
Would not recommend.
But I am not asking about exceeding the max capacity, only the nominal capacity which is probably arbitrary anyway. Why even bother to rate batteries in max capacity if it cannot be used in any possible way for anything without damage? Why doesn't capacity mean capacity when it comes to batteries? If max capacity doesn't mean max capacity with batteries, what does it mean?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Even a slight overcharge would cause a permanently decreased discharge capacity for that cell. If it lasts too long, the cell will pressurize/catch fire/explode. And the effects are cumulative.
The other thing to note is that batteries involve chemical processes. Dumping power into it will cause the voltage to overshoot the target for a brief time, and the reverse is true when you draw a big load. Further, overcharging causes irreversible negative chemical reactions like overgassing and the formation of lithium metal on the anode, and could lead to thermal runaway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuKF8XfCVKQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuKF8XfCVKQ)
To protect against that, if any cell exceeds the upper safety limit, it'll cause the bike to open its contactor and quit while running.
Would not recommend.
But I am not asking about exceeding the max capacity, only the nominal capacity which is probably arbitrary anyway. Why even bother to rate batteries in max capacity if it cannot be used in any possible way for anything without damage? Why doesn't capacity mean capacity when it comes to batteries? If max capacity doesn't mean max capacity with batteries, what does it mean?
-Don- Reno, NV
Capacity really doesn't enter the equation when talking about charging or regen Starting and stopping charging is a function of cell voltage, not capacity. Nominal v max capacity measure different things, and max is really a marketing number.
If you're asking why Zero probably doesn't quite charge to the max cell voltage, it's a function of longevity. Negative chemical reactions occur a lot faster as you get close to the cell's max voltage, and as the cell ages, the max voltage actually decreases! If you exceed that new cell voltage, aging increases way way faster for that cell, often leading to a few completely dead cells.
They're trying to get you to through that five year warranty and beyond.
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Capacity really doesn't enter the equation when talking about charging or regen Starting and stopping charging is a function of cell voltage, not capacity. Nominal v max capacity measure different things, and max is really a marketing number.
If you're asking why Zero probably doesn't quite charge to the max cell voltage, it's a function of longevity. Negative chemical reactions occur a lot faster as you get close to the cell's max voltage, and as the cell ages, the max voltage actually decreases! If you exceed that new cell voltage, aging increases way way faster for that cell, often leading to a few completely dead cells.
They're trying to get you to through that five year warranty and beyond.
Yeah, I understand all that, but do you really believe getting a bit closer to the max cell voltage for a couple of seconds of regen can cause all that much harm?
But I guess every EV maker must think so, as they all turn regen off at 100SOC and i assume they know more about it than I do.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Zero caps us at 80% of the cells normal 'maximum', it just seems funny they turn off regen at that point, too. Let us use that headroom for regen, we're on the road, we'll use it up in the next few minutes anyhow.
-Crissa
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I wonder if an off board charger would be better than the OBC or Charge Tank even.
When I bought my SR with Charge Tank last year I checked the logs to compare the battery charging and noted that the 6kW Charge Tank increased the battery pack temperature less than the 1.2kW OBC did for the same amount of SOC increase.
For example, OBC charging from 53% to 100% increased the battery temperature from 19C to 32C (in 5 hours), whereas the 6kW Charge Tank charging from 50% to 100% increased the batttery temperature from 19C to 26C (in 1 hour 30 minutes). The logged ambient temperature (I'm not sure where the sensor for that is) rose from 12C to 20C for the OBC but from 14C to 25C for the Charge Tank for those two charges.
I presume the OBC heats the battery more because it is mounted below the battery pack and conducts heat into it, whereas the Charge Tank is mounted above the battery pack and there is a gap between them (plus it has cooling fans blowing heat away from the battery).
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That'll be why they moved it on top of the battery for the SR/F along with the other subtle thermal management tricks.
Cas :)
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That makes the OBC better for charging in winter and overnight!
-Crissa
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Perhaps I should have ran my Elcons without the OBC when I was overheating. I never even thought about the OBC making the batteries warmer by getting hot just below the battery.
My Elcons are external and have fans, unlike the OBC.
I almost want to take another ride in the heat to try it!
But it also could be that the OBCs very slow charge rate gives a lot more time to heat up the battery.
That sure would be an easy fix, to charge at 5KW instead of 6.3 KW by not using my OBC.
I can live with a 5KW charge, that is nothing compared to waiting for the batteries to cool down.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I live in Phoenix. The heat makes charging a PAIN.I bought my 2018 S 13.0 with a Charge Tank, used, back in January. The Charge Tank has NEVER worked well, the best I’ve ever gotten out of it is 25%. Right now I get 5-10% SOC increase if it doesn’t just shut off after 5 minutes. I have a 15 mile commute, 13 of it interstate, and I’m usually going 80-90mph. I get a little bit of charge at work, and am usually around 60% SOC when I get home. I leave the garage door cracked for ventilation and let the bike cool off for a few hours, but it’s often still around 100F ambient temperature when I plug it in around 9:30pm. I’m happy if it’s back up to 90% in the morning. It rarely ever charges fully right now; the temp indicator is always flashing when I check on it in the morning.
For those curious about Phoenix, I lived here in 2009/2010 and loved it. Traffic was light and flowed well. Moved back home to Wyoming, then went to school in California, and came back to Phoenix 2 years ago. It is WAY different. Covid has lessened the traffic some, but I’d rather deal with Southern California traffic. The drivers i. cali are aggressive but predictable, and you can filter. Deivers here are just bad; super unpredictable, and I think we lead the nation in wrong way drivers and red light runners.
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I live in Phoenix. The heat makes charging a PAIN.I bought my 2018 S 13.0 with a Charge Tank, used, back in January. The Charge Tank has NEVER worked well, the best I’ve ever gotten out of it is 25%. Right now I get 5-10% SOC increase if it doesn’t just shut off after 5 minutes. I have a 15 mile commute, 13 of it interstate, and I’m usually going 80-90mph. I get a little bit of charge at work, and am usually around 60% SOC when I get home. I leave the garage door cracked for ventilation and let the bike cool off for a few hours, but it’s often still around 100F ambient temperature when I plug it in around 9:30pm. I’m happy if it’s back up to 90% in the morning. It rarely ever charges fully right now; the temp indicator is always flashing when I check on it in the morning.
For those curious about Phoenix, I lived here in 2009/2010 and loved it. Traffic was light and flowed well. Moved back home to Wyoming, then went to school in California, and came back to Phoenix 2 years ago. It is WAY different. Covid has lessened the traffic some, but I’d rather deal with Southern California traffic. The drivers i. cali are aggressive but predictable, and you can filter. Deivers here are just bad; super unpredictable, and I think we lead the nation in wrong way drivers and red light runners.
Have you yet charged on a cool Phoenix December day?
I am glad to know that I still have to avoid Phoenix on my yearly RV trip to Tucson and OPCNM, etc. I love AZ, except for Phoenix. I have wondered why that place builds up so fast and non-stop. I assume there are always many high paying jobs around or something like that. I have not been inside of Phoenix since the early 1980's and it was even packed then.
Los Angeles, CA & Phoenix, AZ I want to stay around 100 miles away from during my trips.
Anyway, you should measure your battery temp with the Zero Voltage App as you charge to see what is happening when.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I live in Phoenix. The heat makes charging a PAIN.I bought my 2018 S 13.0 with a Charge Tank, used, back in January. The Charge Tank has NEVER worked well, the best I’ve ever gotten out of it is 25%. Right now I get 5-10% SOC increase if it doesn’t just shut off after 5 minutes. I have a 15 mile commute, 13 of it interstate, and I’m usually going 80-90mph. I get a little bit of charge at work, and am usually around 60% SOC when I get home. I leave the garage door cracked for ventilation and let the bike cool off for a few hours, but it’s often still around 100F ambient temperature when I plug it in around 9:30pm. I’m happy if it’s back up to 90% in the morning. It rarely ever charges fully right now; the temp indicator is always flashing when I check on it in the morning.
For those curious about Phoenix, I lived here in 2009/2010 and loved it. Traffic was light and flowed well. Moved back home to Wyoming, then went to school in California, and came back to Phoenix 2 years ago. It is WAY different. Covid has lessened the traffic some, but I’d rather deal with Southern California traffic. The drivers i. cali are aggressive but predictable, and you can filter. Deivers here are just bad; super unpredictable, and I think we lead the nation in wrong way drivers and red light runners.
Have you yet charged on a cool Phoenix December day?
I am glad to know that I still have to avoid Phoenix on my yearly RV trip to Tucson and OPCNM, etc. I love AZ, except for Phoenix. I have wondered why that place builds up so fast and non-stop. I assume there are always many high paying jobs around or something like that. I have not been inside of Phoenix since the early 1980's and it was even packed then.
Los Angeles, CA & Phoenix, AZ I want to stay around 100 miles away from during my trips.
Anyway, you should measure your battery temp with the Zero Voltage App as you charge to see what is happening when.
-Don- Reno, NV
Level 1 charging was fine up until a few weeks ago, no problem. Level 2 has never worked well for me, even on 50F mornings. After charging 20-25% it shuts off. I assume there’s something wrong with the charge tank, and the summer heat just makes it worse.
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Level 1 charging was fine up until a few weeks ago, no problem. Level 2 has never worked well for me, even on 50F mornings. After charging 20-25% it shuts off. I assume there’s something wrong with the charge tank, and the summer heat just makes it worse.
Yeah, you for sure have a charge tank problem. Does the station click off, or does it think the bike is still charging?
I mean off just like when you disconnect a J1772 adapter that still has power. A click that disengages the station, heard from the charger, not the bike.
IOw, is it shutting off the station or just no longer charging?
-Don- USA Parkway, Patrick, NV (charging Xero DS)
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Level 1 charging was fine up until a few weeks ago, no problem. Level 2 has never worked well for me, even on 50F mornings. After charging 20-25% it shuts off. I assume there’s something wrong with the charge tank, and the summer heat just makes it worse.
Yeah, you for sure have a charge tank problem. Does the station click off, or does it think the bike is still charging?
I mean off just like when you disconnect a J1772 adapter that still has power. A click that disengages the station, heard from the charger, not the bike.
IOw, is it shutting off the station or just no longer charging?
-Don- USA Parkway, Patrick, NV (charging Xero DS)
It… sort of shuts the station off? It doesn’t shut off the station immediately. You’ll hear the station click off, and them click back on a few seconds later. The station might show charging at less than 100w, and a few seconds later it clicks off again. It’ll do that cycle for a few minutes and then the station goes into standby and the bike dash goes blank.
I sat with it and monitored it through the app for an attempted charge back in march. 60F. The battery charged at up to 56amps, but battery temp never exceeded 84F according to the app. It still shut off after almost 30 mins and on 64% SOC.
I figured it’s a problem with the charge tank, but I hate going to dealers for service. Took my Yamaha in for standard maintenance last November and it still doesn’t work after they did… whatever it is they do.
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It… sort of shuts the station off? It doesn’t shut off the station immediately. You’ll hear the station click off, and them click back on a few seconds later. The station might show charging at less than 100w, and a few seconds later it clicks off again. It’ll do that cycle for a few minutes and then the station goes into standby and the bike dash goes blank.
I sat with it and monitored it through the app for an attempted charge back in march. 60F. The battery charged at up to 56amps, but battery temp never exceeded 84F according to the app. It still shut off after almost 30 mins and on 64% SOC.
I figured it’s a problem with the charge tank, but I hate going to dealers for service. Took my Yamaha in for standard maintenance last November and it still doesn’t work after they did… whatever it is they do.
Do you have a high power granny cable? If so, does it work okay with your charge tank?
Is your charge tank 6 KW?
Have you tried different company J-1772 stations? Does your charge tank ever work normally? How do you charge at home?
BTW, when you have the charge tank, can you still use the OBC to get another 1.3 KW or is the charge tank already using it?
FWIW, I also try to avoid dealers as much as I can.
-Don- Reno, NV
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It… sort of shuts the station off? It doesn’t shut off the station immediately. You’ll hear the station click off, and them click back on a few seconds later. The station might show charging at less than 100w, and a few seconds later it clicks off again. It’ll do that cycle for a few minutes and then the station goes into standby and the bike dash goes blank.
I sat with it and monitored it through the app for an attempted charge back in march. 60F. The battery charged at up to 56amps, but battery temp never exceeded 84F according to the app. It still shut off after almost 30 mins and on 64% SOC.
I figured it’s a problem with the charge tank, but I hate going to dealers for service. Took my Yamaha in for standard maintenance last November and it still doesn’t work after they did… whatever it is they do.
Do you have a high power granny cable? If so, does it work okay with your charge tank?
Is your charge tank 6 KW?
Have you tried different company J-1772 stations? Does your charge tank ever work normally? How do you charge at home?
BTW, when you have the charge tank, can you still use the OBC to get another 1.3 KW or is the charge tank already using it?
FWIW, I also try to avoid dealers as much as I can.
-Don- Reno, NV
Thank you for the questIons!
I had to look up granny charging cables; I do not have one. I have a 20amp circuit in the garage and use that with the on board charger at home
I don’t know for a fact that it’s a 6kW charge tank. I bought it used, privately. It was supposed to be factory installed, and given the current I see it pull, I’m in trouble if it’s not 6kW. Is there a way to check?
I have tried ChargePoint and SemaConnect. Multiple ChargePoints in different locations. We have two SemaConnects at work, and one of them was recently replaced. But the ChargeTank never worked well. Made the ride back from Tuscon complicated. The only time I’ve achieved 100% SOC was restarting the charging multiple times. It normally stops after increasing by 20-25% in cool weather, and 5-10% in the current 100+ weather. Restarting charging always has diminished returns, something like half of what the previous charge provided.
I haven’t tried using the onboard with the charge tank. Our parking garage attendants block off the outlets to keep the car people from charging all day.
I’ll probably take it to the dealer since level 1 charging is unreliable in this heat. Just gotta convince myself it’ll be better than last time.
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Thank you for the questIons!
I had to look up granny charging cables; I do not have one. I have a 20amp circuit in the garage and use that with the on board charger at home
I don’t know for a fact that it’s a 6kW charge tank. I bought it used, privately. It was supposed to be factory installed, and given the current I see it pull, I’m in trouble if it’s not 6kW. Is there a way to check?
I have tried ChargePoint and SemaConnect. Multiple ChargePoints in different locations. We have two SemaConnects at work, and one of them was recently replaced. But the ChargeTank never worked well. Made the ride back from Tuscon complicated. The only time I’ve achieved 100% SOC was restarting the charging multiple times. It normally stops after increasing by 20-25% in cool weather, and 5-10% in the current 100+ weather. Restarting charging always has diminished returns, something like half of what the previous charge provided.
I haven’t tried using the onboard with the charge tank. Our parking garage attendants block off the outlets to keep the car people from charging all day.
I’ll probably take it to the dealer since level 1 charging is unreliable in this heat. Just gotta convince myself it’ll be better than last time.
If you charged at 56 amps DC to the battery, you must have the 6KW charge tank. Say 103 volts (about 60% SOC)times 56 amps=5,768 watts.
All Zero charging in unreliable in the heat, but that doesn't explain your problem on cooler days.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I don't want to hijack the thread, but I have a question concerning heat.
WHat's the main bottleneck for charging in the heat? Is it the charger getting too hot, or the battery? Would 3 diginows suffer the heat bottleneck as badly as one 6kw charger? (my thinking is 3 diginows can spread the workload out)
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I don't want to hijack the thread, but I have a question concerning heat.
WHat's the main bottleneck for charging in the heat? Is it the charger getting too hot, or the battery? Would 3 diginows suffer the heat bottleneck as badly as one 6kw charger? (my thinking is 3 diginows can spread the workload out)
What I have heard over the years is that the issue is the battery getting too hot and the to protect the battery the BMS shuts down the charging current. Once that happens it takes a long time for the battery to cool off as it is just a big enclosed heat-sink and has no active cooling system. Until the battery finally cools off enough that the BMS will allow charging to commence again, you are starting to grow a 5-O'clock shadow. ;)
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I don't want to hijack the thread, but I have a question concerning heat.
WHat's the main bottleneck for charging in the heat? Is it the charger getting too hot, or the battery? Would 3 diginows suffer the heat bottleneck as badly as one 6kw charger? (my thinking is 3 diginows can spread the workload out)
What I have heard over the years is that the issue is the battery getting too hot and the to protect the battery the BMS shuts down the charging current. Once that happens it takes a long time for the battery to cool off as it is just a big enclosed heat-sink and has no active cooling system. Until the battery finally cools off enough that the BMS will allow charging to commence again, you are starting to grow a 5-O'clock shadow. ;)
What I've gathered (from a post I'm not finding how - it was in one of DonTom's recent charging threads) is the the proximity of the onboard charger to the battery can heat the battery up substantially more (esp. for the relative charge provided) than and external charger (numbers were posted in the post I'm referring to), and the ChargeTank avoids this by sitting above the battery for better heat dissipation.
I've got two external chargers I use (EVtricity) and I *think* - I'll need more testing and have to pay attention that those have perhaps overheated in the past (being the bottleneck, so to speak) perhaps before the BMS went into protection mode and slowed / cut off charging.
It's also possible that when I've had problems, the battery was getting hot and my chargers, because they're just trying to pull at their respective 3.3kw or 6.6 kW rate rather than coordinating with the battery, may also cause the BMS to jump ship even when a slower rate of charging would have been acceptable. I would presume this would be an advantage of a charge tank, as it would communicate with the BMS to adjust charging as battery temp became an issue, whereas the BMS just balks (???) at an attempted charge rate that is beyond acceptable.
This is a lot of guesswork here and I wasn't looking at the situation in the past with these ideas in mind.
Next time I'm on a long trip, I'm going to attempt a full on charge (6.6kW plus 3.3kW (2nd changer) + ~1.5kW from the onboard) and if charging stops, I'll just go with the 6.6kW charger to see if a slower charge rate (without underbelly heating from the OBC) is possible.
-Scott
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What I've gathered (from a post I'm not finding how - it was in one of DonTom's recent charging threads)
Reply number 20 here. (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=11224.15) By HotRob in this same thread.
is the the proximity of the onboard charger to the battery can heat the battery up substantially more (esp. for the relative charge provided) than and external charger (numbers were posted in the post I'm referring to), and the ChargeTank avoids this by sitting above the battery for better heat dissipation.
Next time I am riding on very hot day, I will no longer use the OBC and see if there is a difference in temp and battery charging. I wish I knew to try that last time in the 100F/ 38C heat.
-Don- Reno, NV
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What I've gathered (from a post I'm not finding how - it was in one of DonTom's recent charging threads)
Reply number 20 here. (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=11224.15) By HotRob in this same thread.
is the the proximity of the onboard charger to the battery can heat the battery up substantially more (esp. for the relative charge provided) than and external charger (numbers were posted in the post I'm referring to), and the ChargeTank avoids this by sitting above the battery for better heat dissipation.
Next time I am riding on very hot day, I will no longer use the OBC and see if there is a difference in temp and battery charging. I wish I knew to try that last time in the 100F/ 38C heat.
-Don- Reno, NV
I plan on doing the same! (Thanks for finding that post.)
If hot, a rule of thumb from here on out could be: OBC when charging at home, overnight. External chargers otherwise.
(I think I mentioned too, that I tried out plugging in the OBC at home when there was a temp error (charging was not proceeding) but just leaving the bike there. Eventually, still plugged in, the battery cooled and the OBC was able to do it's job. That's a nice feature (to be able to plug in and leave it to cool down rather than checking back regularly to start charging only after the battery's cooled down) when there's no hurry in charging back up.
-S
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(I think I mentioned too, that I tried out plugging in the OBC at home when there was a temp error (charging was not proceeding) but just leaving the bike there. Eventually, still plugged in, the battery cooled and the OBC was able to do it's job. That's a nice feature (to be able to plug in and leave it to cool down rather than checking back regularly to start charging only after the battery's cooled down) when there's no hurry in charging back up.
Yeah, but what happened to me is it started to charge again on its own, got 10 more SOC, over-heated and shut down again. This happened twice to me. Perhaps without the OBC, it will still overheat, but just may do 15 SOC at a time instead of ten or whatever. And it could take just as long either way to gain the 15 SOC. But is worth a try, perhaps it could make it all the way to full under some conditions, with the OBC being off making the difference.
If the OBC really does heat up the battery enough to make a difference, then, IMO, there is a poor design issue there.
OTOH, that could be a good idea where very cold.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Is it a poor design when it extends how much you can charge in winter?
-Crissa
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Is it a poor design when it extends how much you can charge in winter?
-Crissa
For me, that is useless. I mainly ride ICE bikes when it is cold.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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For me, that is useless. I mainly ride ICE bikes when it is cold.
So lucky for you to have a selection of bikes and not worry about the cold limiting the ability to charge or start the bike.
-Crissa
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(I think I mentioned too, that I tried out plugging in the OBC at home when there was a temp error (charging was not proceeding) but just leaving the bike there. Eventually, still plugged in, the battery cooled and the OBC was able to do it's job. That's a nice feature (to be able to plug in and leave it to cool down rather than checking back regularly to start charging only after the battery's cooled down) when there's no hurry in charging back up.
Yeah, but what happened to me is it started to charge again on its own, got 10 more SOC, over-heated and shut down again. This happened twice to me. Perhaps without the OBC, it will still overheat, but just may do 15 SOC at a time instead of ten or whatever. And it could take just as long either way to gain the 15 SOC. But is worth a try, perhaps it could make it all the way to full under some conditions, with the OBC being off making the difference.
If the OBC really does heat up the battery enough to make a difference, then, IMO, there is a poor design issue there.
OTOH, that could be a good idea where very cold.
-Don- Reno, NV
Yes, agreed on the above.
For me, when arriving home at the end of the day, it seemed that that volleying between charging, overheating, cooling down, charging initiated again was dampened rapidly enough d/t the "cooler" conditions (shaded, <80?F, etc.) parked in my carport at home to fully recharge in a <12 hr (so maybe an hour or two of waiting time d/t the need to cool). "Leave it and forget it" viable. :)
In the middle of hot day at an unshaded charging station - definitely not a first like strategy of course!
-S
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Richard mentioned the heat wave in Portland OR. On Sunday the 27th ( 115 F daytime high in Portland ) I rode my 2020 SR/S Premium to Tillamook on the coast for a few days of camping to avoid the 115 degree temps which is a record temp for Portland. It's 75 miles total with a 1500 ft pass in the Coast Range and the last 30 miles or so are downhill to Tillamook. The speed limit on the highway is 55 so never got over 60mph. I left Portland at 10:00am with a 90 F ambient temp and rolled into Tillamook with 90 F ambient showing on the dash and plugged into a level 2 EVSE in direct sunlight and was charging at the normal 5.8 KW to 100 % while I had lunch. Regen was normal coming down off the 1500 ft pass and charging was normal. I didn't check the batt temp but now have it on my dash. So at least at temps of 90F or below all is ok on the SR/S.
As far as regen with a full battery goes, if regen was allowed when the cells are fully charged and you went down a big hill wouldn't the BMS shut the bike down because of over voltage? My Vectrix, my Brammo Empulse and my Chevy Spark all loose regen for a short time when fully charged. Even so it always surprises me for a second when it happens.
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My 2014S would charge to 117 V. When fully charged the bike would disable regen until voltage dropped a bit after a mile of riding. Then the regen would return and act normally for the rest of the ride. Other than being a bit of a surprise when the regen turns off and you had to brake harder when coming to a stop, it never was an issue for me. On my 2018S that doesn't happen because the BMS cuts off charging at 115V.