ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Mooseman on June 28, 2021, 05:38:08 AM
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As much as I love my first electric motorcycle, a Zero SR/S Premium with a power tank, there are a few things that seem odd.
1. The lack of a parking brake. A regular bike doesn't need one, but I feel like an electric bike should come with a parking brake. Luckily for me the area around here is rather flat, so I never have to park on a slope.
2. The lack of a brake light that lights up when decelerating regardless of me using the friction brakes. This seems like a safety hazard to me, especially at higher speeds. I use a custom profile with full regen to extend range as much as possible and to reduce brake wear. It's pretty much the equivalent to one-pedal driving in my car (also EV). The highest speed limit around here is 110 kph. People regularly go faster, I'd say up to about 130 kph according to the speedo which seems a bit too optimistic. In reality that's about 124 kph. At that speed, even without regen, the deceleration would be pretty hard due to air drag. With regen it's even stronger and traffic behind me never sees the brake light. Just lightly pulling the brake lever to activate the brake switch is not an option because the bike will immediately go into full regen. I feel like this is something that Zero should address. I know that there is already a three page long thread about this topic so I'll just leave it to that.
3. An electric bike for about C$38,000 (SR/S Premium with Power tank incl. fees and taxes) is delivered with incandescent bulbs for the turn signals. Seriously? This is a disgrace, especially since they have LED turn signals in their parts catalog. This is just a money grab. It appears that aftermarket LED turn signals only work with a resistor built in which artificially increases the power consumption, so no, thank you. Does anyone have the Zero LED turn lights and knows how much they cost? My dealership is not competent enough to even respond to this question.
4. There is a number of bugs in the software. Most notably is that if I set the charge target to let's say 30%, the bike will send a message to my phone saying that charging has completed at 30%, however it won't stop charging until it reaches 36%. I've tried this with various settings and it always keeps charging for a couple more percent. I contacted Zero about this and they recommended to use the provided charger rather than my Tesla Gen2/Gen3 Wall Connector (I have one of each and use a Lectron adapter [Tesla -> J1772]). That's not something I'd want to do on a daily basis as... well, I'll get to that in 5. Suffice to say that the Tesla Wall Connector is not the problem. I tried the Aptiv unit and while everything wen t a lot slower, the effect itself was the same. Either way, there is no way a wall connector can force anything on the battery. The bike actively has to request power, otherwise the contactor will open. This is precisely what should happen at the target percentage. I have attached a picture that shows this very effect at a charge target of 55% and it keeps going with time left showing 0:00. This was with the Aptiv level 1 charger, thus the low power (1.4 kW). Do others have the same issue? I'm not entirely sure yet if this a software bug or a botched power tank installation.
5. As far as I know the Energica and the LifeWire have DCFC options. I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, it would be great to be able to fully recharge while having a coffee at a Timmies, but then again, I can't tell how much stress this would put on the battery. No active cooling, a relatively small battery to begin with... If I recharge from 20-80% in just 20 minutes, there is a good chance that this will affect battery life. Does anybody have first hand experience with other bikes? Am I just being overcautious or is that really an issue?
6. The service plan is ridiculous. It appears as though Zero is trying to do their dealers a favour by scheduling way more visits at the shop than necessary. Seriously, who changes their brake fluid every year? I barely even use my brake thanks to the regen. It would probably still be working fine if I used water instead of actual brake fluid (just exaggerating to make my point, of course I'm not going to do it).
That's it so far. Otherwise I'm really happy not to deal with a chain and grease anymore. Driving is a lot more fun than before, especially the part where you don't have to shift down if you need acceleration. The power is always available, no matter what. I had a dude with a Ninja next to me at a light the other day and he was looking at me like "what's wrong with your engine, I can't hear anything"). When the light turned green I opened throttle and he was still standing there when I was already past the intersection. He's probably still wondering what got him ;D.
What else... I brought my bike to a local detail shop to get a ceramic coating:
I tried to insert a link here but it just won't work. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. Let's try something else:
https://www.facebook.com/thedetailshopcornwall/posts/2271098876356345I haven't checked here but people are usually pretty divided about that, so feel about it any way you like, I'm not going to hate you :P
Last but not least the light appears a lot better than pretty much anything I've seen before on a motorcycle. It seems to be a bit out of alignment though and I'm not riding much in the dark, so I'll have to check that at a later time. From what I've seen so far the lights are pretty strong though.
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I agree that not having a parking brake is a real issue. What I have done is to use a strip of Velcro to wrap around the front brake lever to lock it on. I think Zero used to sell a parking brake for perhaps more money than it is worth. If you don't like Velcro, you can check their accessory catalog for your bike to see if they still sell that.
What I have done with my S is to use maximum regen when braking and no regen when coasting with the throttle closed. When I want to slow down using the regen, I will lightly touch the front brake just enough to turn on the regen braking and the rear brake light, but not hard enough to actually result in braking by the front caliper.
The only time I have had any servicing performed on my bike was at the 600-mile initial checkup. All the tech did was to check over the chassis and "commission" the motor. That service only cost $200, compared with the $650 I was charged for the 600-mile servicing on my 2020 KTM 390 Duke. :o I now do all of my own servicing on all of my motorcycles, especially around here where motorcycle shops are now charging $180 an hour. :(
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I had Chevy EV and now a Tesla that both use some algorithm to determine if the brake light should activate with regen coasting. Surprised Zero hasn't started doing so yet. What Richard230 mentions to get around this is what I do as well, except I tend to start my braking with the rear and then begin to apply the front if I need to be serious about slowing down.
For the brake lock, again I'm surprised this isn't built in at this point. I use a this brake level lock that I got from Amazon. It adds a couple seconds to my pre and post ride routine, but on top of keeping the bike stationary, it also acts as an extra layer of security.
Also a reverse switch would be nice. Can this system not spin the motor backwards, or is there a safety concern? Even if it's capped at half a mph, I'll take it.
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I agree that not having a parking brake is a real issue.
I don't know how I got by without my Bullet Brake (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10463.0). It also makes a great hill hold at stoplights on a hill.
-Don- Reno, NV
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About point 5...
Energica (and guessing also Livewire) has active water cooling so that's why they can DC charge without putting much stress on the batttery. Should also mean they can take more of a beating before getting heat buildup warnings (I believe).
Downside is more servicing than Zero.
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Er, I don't think the Energica pack is liquid cooled? It's got ventilation holes through it instead.
My corroboration after 3500 miles on the SR/F:
1. The only time I've ever, ever needed a parking brake for a motorcycle in the last 32 years / 250,000 miles was when I put them on the ferry. I'm sure that there are situations involving crazy hills and orientation that you might come across but seriously... just park somewhere else! The velcro strap round the front brake sounds like a brilliantly inexpensive and very light solution. I suppose almost anything will do that you can ratchet tight. Even hairbands might work fine.
2. I sort of agree here, except I have 0% extra regen on braking - I don't want the rear brake to suddenly come on any stronger than I'm actually pressing on the lever and upsetting the chassis - so instead it's just down to whether a brake light should come on under "normal" regen settings. I ride with 40% passive regen (aka plain vanilla Street mode) as it feels just like a big twin cylinder engine and I wouldn't want the brake light to come on. The 100% regen setting seems far more fierce. The solution I think would be to be able to specify at what % of regeneration you'd like the brake light to come on at, something that could be implemented in software nice and easily. If Zero had any software engineers...
3. Something to do with the US construction regs. Daft. Exported bikes should be fitted with LEDs as standard though. There is a software setting that mitigates the need to use resistors which a dealer can apply.
4. Don't get me started on how they could get the software so badly wrong. Mercifully I've never suffered from "magic charging" (v19 here) and it all seems to ride ok. The phone app is next to useless at doing the very few things it is supposed to do. Suspect they had a contractor who's since just buggered off completely and left them with a heap of code they have no idea what to do with. As for the firmware... seems they need some more experienced software engineers on the team there too.
5. There's no DCFC because the battery voltage is too low for any existing CCS specs. Chademo might have worked (they made it) but Chademo is for freaks and weirdos anyway, and also, most charging stations failed to fully implement the spec and couldn't provide the low voltage Zero needs. Zero can't easily change the voltage because their entire power train is designed around a low-volts-big-amps paradigm. Don't worry about battery stress, you're far more likely to have one of the expensive ancillary control units blow up instead.
6. Oddly the dealer never mentioned the service plan to me. I asked him if the belt ever needed adjusting and he said nope, don't even worry about touching it. Personally I'm not going to get it serviced, I'll just have the brake pads replaced on tyre change if they look thin and get the brake and fork oil changed after maybe 20k miles. Keep an eye on the belt though. I've bought the Krikit gauge, but I've yet to use it.
Cas :)
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I find I have to park crosswise in a parking space about half the time. A parking brake would be really useful.
-Crissa
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There is nothing fierce about the regen braking on my 2018 S, even at a 100% setting. About the same as having an ICE bike in fourth gear with the throttle closed. And you hardly even notice regen in the sport or eco modes. I also note that manual braking on either in either of those two modes seems to make no increase in regen braking over the closed throttle drag. ???
I have parked on relative steep grades where my Zero will start to roll backward. And if facing forward on much more than a slight downhill grade a way to lock one of the brakes is definitely needed. The Velcro strap works just fine for me.
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100% regen on the SR/F feels even more strong than chopping the throttle closed on my 690.
Still can't figure out how everyone is having trouble parking on slopes and rolling bikes... I park my SR/F at the top of a reasonably steep (and very uneven) path every time I get it out of the garden so I can close the gate behind me, but that's sort of by the by... on any particular slope there is always an angle you can position the bike at so that it can't or won't roll... which is what I've always done, and why I don't need a parking brake.
Cas :)
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It's difficult to photo slopes, but there's one gate in my neighborhood that I can't seem to manage to stop my bike on.
-Crissa
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Thanks all for your valuable feedback. Cas got right to the one situation where I would really like to have a parking brake: on ferries. Either way, I stand by my initial statement that electric bikes should have one.
I got feedback from Zero today acknowledging that the overcharging is indeed a firmware issue. I was told that the issue should be fixed in an upcoming firmware update. We'll see. At least they're honest about it.
I also found another software bug: if you display the trip efficiency on the dash and reset the trip counter right before a trip, you'll see that even if you go at a constant speed, the consumption keeps increasing (well above the instant Wh/km) only to suddenly drop at some point. And after that it's rinse and repeat, however the effect slowly fades with increased mileage.
What I believe is happening is that they know the exact energy consumed at any given time, but instead of dividing that number by the exact distance driven, they devide it by INT(distance driven). So let's say you use 80 Wh/km and the dash updates every 0.1 km. Instead of showing
80 Wh / 1 km = 80 Wh/km
88 Wh / 1.1 km = 80 Wh/km
96 Wh / 1.2 km = 80 Wh/km
and so on it shows
80 Wh / 1 km = 80 Wh/km
88 Wh / 1 km = 88 Wh/km
96 Wh / 1 km = 96 Wh/km
...
152 Wh / 1 km = 152 Wh/km
160 Wh / 2 km = 80 Wh/km
and so forth. The effect is similar when you switch to miles instead of kilometres, except it appears to update the distance driven internally every half mile.
Not really an issue, just sloppy programming. I hope they'll actually make changes to make their product better, but from what I read here, this might just be me being naïve.
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Er, I don't think the Energica pack is liquid cooled? It's got ventilation holes through it instead...
Oh... I thought that it was liquid cooled since it's ability to DC "fast" charge and not as easily run hot on a racetrack. I guess the only liquid is for the motor/gear then. :)
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Regen provides such miniscule charge that it's practically worthless. I would turn it off and let go of the throttle little bit earlier to slow down.
Depends on what you want from it. I agree that it's not really extending your range, I like it as a "third" brake and I'm used to engine braking from my ICE bike.
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Same here... it's a very useful tool and should help the brake pads last an awful lot longer.
Also, maybe one day, maybe, you'll be really glad of that extra 2 miles it eked out of the range ;)
Cas :)
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One of my riding routes I gain 5+% over four miles.
So regen is super-helpful for me. On a good day, I only use physical brakes while sitting still. (Or turning off my street)
-Crissa
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One of my riding routes I gain 5+% over four miles.
Is the amount of regen displayed somewhere? I'd expect a rather low effect in terms of range although it really depends on how you ride the bike. I just hate the idea of converting precious momentum into heat if I can avoid it.
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100% regen on the SR/F feels even more strong than chopping the throttle closed on my 690.
Still can't figure out how everyone is having trouble parking on slopes and rolling bikes... I park my SR/F at the top of a reasonably steep (and very uneven) path every time I get it out of the garden so I can close the gate behind me, but that's sort of by the by... on any particular slope there is always an angle you can position the bike at so that it can't or won't roll... which is what I've always done, and why I don't need a parking brake.
Cas :)
I've somehow managed to have the bike roll off the side stand twice on a slight decline (SR/F). Bike went down (very, very slowly) both times. Now I use the dumb rubber zero parking break if there is ANY slope when parking (yes, it only takes twice for me to learn).
Steve
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One of my riding routes I gain 5+% over four miles.
Is the amount of regen displayed somewhere? I'd expect a rather low effect in terms of range although it really depends on how you ride the bike. I just hate the idea of converting precious momentum into heat if I can avoid it.
On the SR/F, SR/S it's shown on the screen as lines on the side (power and torque go negative on regen). It's progressive when using 100% off throttle regen with throttle position. You can watch it increase as you roll further off throttle. That's how my custom mode is set up, 100% everything except a max speed of 85MPH.
Steve
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Some of its properties are positive. Adjustable engine braking can be very nice feature, especially downhill.
I'm happy you wrote this. Because what you wrote earlier "Regen provides such miniscule charge that it's practically worthless" was just nonsense in my opinion. Come to Switzerland an ride some mountain passes. Last Saturday I gained 10% riding downhill the Stilfserjoch ....
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Regarding No 4:
Being on FW19 with an SR/F, I also experience always an overshooting of targeted charging. It can be as extreme as 20% (targeted 80%, stops at 100%). However: This is only at the moment. Several hours later (usually the next morning), the SoC is exactly or very close (1% difference) as was targeted in the first place.
I also experience 'magic charging' despite being on FW19.
Especially after riding rather fast for a while on the motorway, coming home with quite low SoC like 8%. After a while SoC goes up nearly 10% without charging.
Also, when charging for 100%, reduction of kW going in for balancing seems to start later than on FW17 (or 18). At the same time, if I wait until the charging is really finished (stopped by the SR/F) the SR/F draws quite many kW for quite a long time while already SoC you giving 100%.
Consequently: If I need a really full or quite full battery, I do not stop charging at the moment SoC reaches 100% at the display. Experience says, that otherwise SoC goes quickly down the first few % right after riding.
To prevent that, I wait until the power going in is < ~ 6 kW (Premium Version with Rapid Charger on a 22 kW Station).
It's quite a while I'm asking me what the reason could be for this worsening of SoC calculation.
I'm not a technician / engineer at all and it may be farfetched. However:
I have read several times, that customers would expect a battery upgrade of some sort, since it is some time since the last.
WHAT IF there is such a upgrade under way and Zero tries to adapt the FW in a way it will work for coming batteries and the ones in use at the moment (14.4 kWh)?
Pure speculation ....
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One of my riding routes I gain 5+% over four miles.
Is the amount of regen displayed somewhere? I'd expect a rather low effect in terms of range although it really depends on how you ride the bike. I just hate the idea of converting precious momentum into heat if I can avoid it.
Yes, there's little meters displayed on the dash in the lower right corner on ben 2 bikes. Not sure where it is on the gen 3 bikes, but the torque meter inverts.
-Crissa
Whoa, 10%? Nice! Usually I lose from 1-2% per mile (once on the freeway in the cold I was losing 3%!) but the hills where I can gain it back are fun ^-^
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About number four:
On my SRS the bike charges past the charge target by a bit less than 10% . I was confused about this too... at first. Then I realized, after it quits charging, some sort of levelling occurs and the end result after about 20 minutes of sitting is a lower value than when the charging stopped. I have mine set to 88% for the ride in to work, and in the time before I start my ride if the bike is still charging when I walk by to pack the bags or whatever I may see 95% on the display. But once its finished, and I go out there to ride away, its spot on the charge target within 1%.
You can see the same levelling effect at the other end of a ride too. For example when I arrive at work it may show 26 -28%, but when it begins to charge at 7PM the initial reading is 33-36%.
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SoC is a computed value, so it's really an estimate anyhow. But temperature shifts and power draw can change what the computer sees, and then it will recalculate in the background.
-Crissa
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While that is all correct (the numbers might not be 100% accurate but should provide a good estimate), a little free energy trumps wear on the brake pads and brake dust every day. I still enjoy the regen and will use it whenever I can. Point taken though, every energy conversion comes with losses.
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Some years ago one of the U.S. monthly print magazines was testing a Zero and commented that the regen power developed when maxed out on the bike was limited to 25% of the controller maximum output. I assumed they got that information from one of the company's engineers and didn't just make it up.
That sounds about right to me, based upon my riding both my 2014 and 2018 Zeros. If that is the case and you figure how little time you are on regen compared with when the throttle is opened, you don't put a lot of power back into your battery pack when regen is activated during a ride. However, as mentioned previously, every little bit helps. ;)
My second electric motorcycle, a 2010 Electric Motorsport GPR-S with a very large D&D "SepEx" motor, featured the ability to generate power on overrun and feed it back into its unhappy Hi Power battery pack. That bike had one of those meters that kept track of such things and it would typically indicate that regen was adding about 2% to the pack's capacity during a typical ride. Just for fun attached is the performance specifications of that golf cart motor.
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"regenerative braking only adds 10-15% more range with city driving and a negligible amount with highway driving"
So... it 'only' adds 10% of range in the city, and then nearly none when you're not stopping at all. What a great piece of logic (not). As opposed to not having that 10% at all? 10% range is a huge gain.
-Crissa
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Or to rephrase. It adds 10%, 'only' in the city, nearly none while cruising.
While 10% in the city is certainly nice, it is exactly the place where most people have least worries about range.
Or to rephrase even better: Regen is great then you MUST slow down. Such as coming up to a red light or stop sign. Then, you want as much regen as possible.
Otherwise, the misuse of having too much regen can waste a lot more energy than it gains, such as having too much regen to go down hill when you have to go uphill again at the bottom. Then it's better to coast down the hill, or just stay at a steady speed.
As a general rule, use the most regen at slower speeds. Use very little or none at all at higher speeds. That's for deceleration regen.
For braking regen, I see no reason to NOT keep it at 100% at all times. When you want to use the brakes, it means you must want to slow down or stop regardless of speed.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I thought Stilfserjoch was in Italy.
[...]
The physics say that you'll always use lot more energy going up the hill than you can possibly get by going down.
You are right, Stilfserjoch is in Italy. (l was wondering, if someone would comment on that.) However: Going downhill, after the first sharp turns you can turn right to the Umbrail pass, which is in Switzerland. Stilfserjoch itself is ~100m away from the Swiss boarder.
Ofcourse I know that physical law. I certainly do not drive up a hill IN ORDER TO gain energy by going downhill afterwards. But if I drove up the hill for fun purposes, I'd be silly not to use regen downhill.
As DonTom wrote: "Regen is great when you MUST slow down."
And riding down from the Stilfserjoch to Santa Maria you definitively MUST slow down (1640m decrease / 264m ascent on 16.8 km road). If I'm correct that's nearly a 10% steep gradient on 16 km ...
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Because too much braking regen skips the fine control of friction brakes and abs, Don. Or you're going down a hill and pacing traffic.
That regen does little for freeway driving is just a dumb statement. You'd rather regen than brakes on the freeway anyhow.
-Crissa
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Regen would be far more useful if there was a bit of room for some supercaps to actually store all the energy instead of just dumping most of it. Then it could be bled back into the battery at a reasonable rate.
Cas :)
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Or to rephrase. It adds 10%, 'only' in the city, nearly none while cruising.
While 10% in the city is certainly nice, it is exactly the place where most people have least worries about range.
Or to rephrase even better: Regen is great then you MUST slow down. Such as coming up to a red light or stop sign. Then, you want as much regen as possible.
Otherwise, the misuse of having too much regen can waste a lot more energy than it gains, such as having too much regen to go down hill when you have to go uphill again at the bottom. Then it's better to coast down the hill, or just stay at a steady speed.
As a general rule, use the most regen at slower speeds. Use very little or none at all at higher speeds. That's for deceleration regen.
For braking regen, I see no reason to NOT keep it at 100% at all times. When you want to use the brakes, it means you must want to slow down or stop regardless of speed.
-Don- Reno, NV
Regen on the SR/F, SR/S is progressive. You control the amount on deceleration based on the throttle position. To me this is ideal, you use what you need. 100% is just the maximum applied, you don't need to apply it. It just depends on how much you roll off the throttle. It seems like many people are still confusing regen on the new bikes with the old ones (where regen was not progressive). The only time I use my friction breaks is in a fast/panic stop, or coming to a full stop at a light, and I can "coast" by just controlling throttle position.
Steve
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It'd be nice if the regen throttle position and curves could be adjusted with the app. I still don't see a sane use case for turning on regen when the brakes are applied though. Braking is like, one of the most finely controlled and critical things you can do - the last thing you want is the rear to suddenly jam on the anchors at the slightest touch of brake application. For one thing it'll fuck with trail braking.
(If you don't know what trail braking is yet - hie thee to Youtube and find out, quickly, before you discover the hard way about what happens if you do as you've been taught by the official instructors. Seriously this will one day save your life)
Cas :)
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It'd be nice if the regen throttle position and curves could be adjusted with the app. I still don't see a sane use case for turning on regen when the brakes are applied though. Braking is like, one of the most finely controlled and critical things you can do - the last thing you want is the rear to suddenly jam on the anchors at the slightest touch of brake application. For one thing it'll fuck with trail braking.
(If you don't know what trail braking is yet - hie thee to Youtube and find out, quickly, before you discover the hard way about what happens if you do as you've been taught by the official instructors. Seriously this will one day save your life)
Cas :)
You get some control with the percentage (really max regen applied fully off throttle), but it would be really nice to be able to "set the curve", I'd like a little wider zero regen zone coming off throttle before regen starts to be applied. It is also not "smooth" it seems that Zero applies different levels in steps based on the throttle position, not really a linear curve.
Steve
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The original poster stated "I use a custom profile with full regen to extend range as much as possible and to reduce brake wear." It was to that comment that I originally replied of regen being practically useless.
Just to clarify: The max regen is set to 100%. It doesn't mean I usually go fast so I can use the full regen in order to extend my range. Regen always happens at questionable efficiency, so it's better not to waste energy to begin with. Most of the time when a speed limit changes fron let's say 80 kph to 60 kph I will close the throttle only far enough to get slowed down by air drag without actually using regen.
Still, if I have to slow down faster I prefer to do it through regen rather than friction brakes. I do agree though that this helps with range less than going just a bit slower. Regen is definitely not a huge range extender.
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Re: parking brake - you could try one of these:
http://www.ifam.es/en/product/rpm-motorcycle-lock/
(http://www.ifam.es/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/rpm-12.jpg)
As a bonus, it's more of a deterrent than a disc lock, and you can't forget it.
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While all the offered solutions seem to work, I feel like this is something that should be addressed by the manufacturer and not by the end user. I shouldn't have to buy a pair of crutches just to make up for their shortcomings. This is supposed to be a high-tech bike and they can't even come up with a solution for a usable parking brake? Zero Motorcycles has been around for many years now and I refuse to believe that none of their engineers has ever noticed that there is some basic functionality missing.
I do appreciate all of the offered workarounds, though. I do have a velcro in my pocket now. Still a disgrace but at least it works.
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My recollection is that a number of ICE scooters with a variable belt drive have a brake lock that is automatically activated when the side stand is deployed. That seems like a good idea to me.
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Not automatically deployed, there's a parking brake lever on them (I've owned two).
Cas :)