ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Harley LiveWire Forum => Topic started by: DonTom on June 24, 2021, 07:04:51 AM
-
The LW is said to be the best selling electric motorcycle in the USA. And is most likely true.
I have a few guesses of why, I want to see if others some up with the same.
-Don- Colds Springs Valley, NV
-
Don what I saw said they have only sold a few hundred bikes.
They may have said it was the "best" US made electric bike sold but it's over priced for the range and charging options at $30k MSRP.
I've seen plenty of reviews where people were happy with the bike as a whole but it's needed to be priced closer to $24k maybe.
-
Don what I saw said they have only sold a few hundred bikes.
They may have said it was the "best" US made electric bike sold but it's over priced for the range and charging options at $30k MSRP.
I've seen plenty of reviews where people were happy with the bike as a whole but it's needed to be priced closer to $24k maybe.
Then see here. (https://electrek.co/2021/06/04/harley-davidsons-next-mystery-electric-motorcycle-coming-next-month-heres-what-it-could-be/)
"The $30,000 LiveWire electric motorcycle may have sold enough units to become the No. 1 best-selling electric motorcycle model in North America, (https://electrek.co/2021/01/12/harley-davidson-likely-wont-cancel-the-livewire-electric-motorcycle/) but it still priced out most of the market – especially critical younger riders."
How many bikes has Zero sold in the USA since the LW was available?
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Well there is the "MAY" in that statement. And maybe compared to any one Zero model but Zero sales could be spread across at least ten different models and more if you count standard and premium.
-
Well there is the "MAY" in that statement. And maybe compared to any one Zero model but Zero sales could be spread across at least ten different models and more if you count standard and premium.
" That would put them at around 200 bikes per month."
How many bikes does Zero sell in a month? Zero doesn't say, so how does Harley even know?
But there is no "may" in the linked statement.
I suppose HD could be playing word games, but according to the HD shops, they sell quite well.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Well, interestingly enough, we have data from DVLA in the UK, that's actually accurate. I don't know whether we can meaningfully extrapolate the sales in the UK market to the US market (the US is basically weird af with their odd penchant for useless Harleys), but for example, in 2019, there were 19 Zero SR/Fs on the road in the whole of the country, and I suspect they sold a whole lot more of them in 2020. There are only 9 FXSes, 7 DSes, etc. You get the picture... not a whole lot. Unfortuantely there's no data yet for 2020 so there's no LW stats.
I can't help but be absolutely certain they'd shift an order of magnitude more of all of these bikes if they were priced at something like 2/3rds of their current RRP.
Cas :)
-
Don,
The $30,000 LiveWire electric motorcycle !"MAY"! have sold enough units to become the No. 1 best-selling electric motorcycle model in North America, but it still priced out most of the market – especially critical younger riders."
There is a "may" in the quote.
Earlier in the year I heard they had only sold like 400 bikes total.
They are ending the model as a HD and spinning it off with other smaller electric offerings.
-
That Electrek article that Don references contains nothing but their opinion regarding which direction H-D might take in the future if they continue to introduce electric motorcycles into their lineup. While interesting, I am not seeing any quotable facts or numbers to support their position.
However, it won't be long before H-D introduces the new LiveWire One to the market and gives some hints regarding their new EV brand's future. Maybe by then the mud that we are standing on will start to dry out a bit. But even then, H-D has a history of not going through with many of their plans and concepts due to their board looking more for short term monetary gains instead of investing in the future even if they loose money now.
I suspect that their new EV brand is an attempt to insulate the company from likely low volume EV sales and a potential for company losses over the next 5 years. I am pretty sure that H-D's corporate board does not have the same resources or financial guts that Tesla had during their first 10 years. I have no doubt that most of the members of the H-D board have "V-twin" tattooed to their foreheads. ::)
-
Well there is the "MAY" in that statement. And maybe compared to any one Zero model but Zero sales could be spread across at least ten different models and more if you count standard and premium.
"And then there’s the fact that the LiveWire is the number-one-selling electric motorcycle in the US, according to Harley-Davidson."
But yeah, in this world of BS, that can mean anything, especially if they see every Zero as a different model. It would be nice to have some real numbers.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Leaving aside whether the ELW is the best-selling electric motorcycle or not, there's also the issue of dealers quietly letting LiveWires go for substantially less than MSRP. I've heard some people have been getting them for as little as $20k. So we don't know how many of those buyers paid the full MSRP.
-
Leaving aside whether the ELW is the best-selling electric motorcycle or not, there's also the issue of dealers quietly letting LiveWires go for substantially less than MSRP. I've heard some people have been getting them for as little as $20k. So we don't know how many of those buyers paid the full MSRP.
Yeah, I also heard recently that many HD dealers have lowered the prices substantially of their demo bikes, as happens with many bikes near the end of the model year. But I don't think I have heard of much reduction on bikes that are NOT demos.
FWIW, I wouldn't pay 20K$ for a new LW, just not what I want in an electric bike. IMO, it would make a lot more sense to buy an Energica or Zero SR/S, even for a few thousand bucks more, IMO.
However, the LW does look like a very high quality bike. Photos don't do it justice. One has to see it in person. It almost looks like it should sell for 30K$, IMO.
But if the LW is really the best selling electric, I think the number of dealers where it is sold is the main reason. But I am not even sure about that, when I discovered in Tucson, AZ there is no LW at the HD dealer, but I can buy a Zero in Tucson. Could the HD name also be a reason?
Or the many people who have tried a LW at a HD dealer and never tried any other electric motorcycle and was impressed with the torque and such?
-Don- Reno, NV
-
I suppose if you don't consider ANY factors like how many models are in their portfolio, marketing budget, and brand loyalists the LiveWire's numbers might be impressive, yeah.
Try factoring some of those things in and it might be less so.
-
I still think this is where H-D's interest really lies: https://www.motorcycle.com/features/what-we-know-about-the-harley-davidson-high-performance-custom-1250.html
-
I still think this is where H-D's interest really lies: https://www.motorcycle.com/features/what-we-know-about-the-harley-davidson-high-performance-custom-1250.html (https://www.motorcycle.com/features/what-we-know-about-the-harley-davidson-high-performance-custom-1250.html)
I wonder what the purpose is to release the info on a certain date.
But I can clearly understand one possible reason. Such as when I purchased my Energica. I had no idea I could buy the 21.5 models at the same price if I waited a month later. They would have lost a sale on the smaller battery if they released the information earlier that a much larger battery was coming a month or two later.
-Don- (CCS Charging in Fernley, NV)
-
I just finished reading an article published today by Motorcycle.com showing spy shots of a new fully water-cooled and completely redesigned BMW R1300GS prototype being tested. So BMW is still on board with ICE for the future. So far I haven't seen a single spy shot or speculative article regarding an electric GS. I think that says something about how the major motorcycle manufacturers regard the EV market.
H-D is an outlier, of course and is taking a chance on the high-end EV market. But I still can't understand why they haven't come up with a cruiser model. ??? While BMW did develop and market their electric scooter, it sure didn't sell well in the U.S. With the big push to go fully electric by 2030 (not all that far away) with autos I am not seeing any big stampede to do the same with motorcycles. ???
-
Well, that goes back to FortNine's video about the condundrum... the major manufacturers are basically totally missing the point. The point they aren't going to miss is suddenly being unable to sell ICE bikes by law in most of Europe by about 2030, so they've got less than 9 years to have viable products. Maybe their strategy to avoid comparisons with ICE bikes they're selling alongside EV models is to simply not sell them alongside EV models, but suddenly switch their ranges over. That way choice comparisons with price, range, and charging duration will be much harder to make as there will be literally no choice, some grumbling, and then capitulation amongst reluctant consumers. (Hopefully they will be pleasantly surprised)
Cas :)
-
While BMW did develop and market their electric scooter, it sure didn't sell well in the U.S. With the big push to go fully electric by 2030 (not all that far away) with autos I am not seeing any big stampede to do the same with motorcycles. ???
How can it sell well when most of the BMW shops in the USA will not stock it? The last I heard, it cannot be purchased in the entire state of NV, not even in a BMW shop in Clark County (Las Vegas). Nor can it be serviced in NV.
I recall in this forum, a guy who owned one near Salt Lake City, whose local BMW shop would NOT service it, and it was a big hassle to deal with.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
It was also a bit lame and ludicrously expensive too...
Cas :)
-
Cruisers are heavy to begin with, and people generally want range with them. Two things EV bikes do poorly at.
I also think Harley-Davidson was really worried about people triggering traction control. I wonder why? Don't they have some of the best in the biz?
-Crissa
-
Cruisers are heavy to begin with, and people generally want range with them. Two things EV bikes do poorly at.
I also think Harley-Davidson was really worried about people triggering traction control. I wonder why? Don't they have some of the best in the biz?
-Crissa
I thought their TC was based on there being a fat bloke in the saddle. Miaow. :o
-
I still find if interesting that when H-D showed off the prototype LiveWire, their primary competitor, Polaris, ran out and bought the Brammo Empulse and then two years later dropped it along with Victory. (I never really understood why the Empulse had to be sacrificed on the Victory altar. They could have renamed it an Indian. ??? ) I wonder if Polaris is now having second thoughts now that the LW is selling enough to given its own brand and dealerships? The Empulse certainly was a good platform, considering that it was designed about 9 years ago. Given a little updating it could have been a decent rival to the LW, Zero and the Energica.
-
As a former owner of a Victory Cross Country Tour, I was very disheartened to see Polaris shutdown Victory. I always felt that they should have rolled it into Indian and keep one or two of the Victorys as re-badged Indian Models. Definitely the Empulse, if they continued development of the platform and made improvements.
I had the opportunity to test ride the Empulse and although it felt too small for me, it was a decent bike. Unfortunately it didn't have the range I needed to make it work but that was a solvable problem.
I digress from the original topic though...I definitely question the method used to determine that the LiveWire is the best selling electric motorcycle in America. Like others have said, maybe if you consider the single model vs any other single model but when you consider how long Zero has been selling in the US and the variety of models, I would argue that due to the shared platform between most of their models that Zero has a better claim to the best selling electric motorcycle in America.
-
Polaris is buying drivetrains from Zero now.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/polaris
-Crissa
-
Don what I saw said they have only sold a few hundred bikes.
With well more than 1,200 members in the LW forum (https://www.hdlivewireforum.com/forums/)?
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Polaris is buying drivetrains from Zero now.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/polaris
-Crissa
Well, that is certainly an interesting development. I guess Polaris has given up on developing their own electric power trains in-house. I bet H-D won't be selling or licensing any of their LW components to other manufacturers or new platform developers.
-
Don what I saw said they have only sold a few hundred bikes.
With well more than 1,200 members in the LW forum (https://www.hdlivewireforum.com/forums/)?
-Don- Reno, NV
Yep even with that.
There are over 1000 members of the Damon Lab and no one has bought a bike yet.
-
770 people in the Lightning Owners Group on Facebook.
-
I'm in both, and own neither.
Does LW actually sell so well?
-
I just checked out the Livewire site and the Livewire One (aka HD Livewire) is now starting at $20k. At that price the bike becomes very competitive with the Zero and Energica. I have a hard time seeing them making a profit on them though...but given their manufacturing capabilities, maybe they are.
At any rate...it's great to see competition in the electric motorcycle space.
-
It DOES Show as entry level under $20K, but they are doing what the car companies did a dozen years ago, including the tax credit.
So, if you start to build, it is $22K
-
At that price the bike becomes very competitive with the Zero and Energica.
Not in my opinion. No level two charging, no reverse, cannot add any luggage, centerstand, etc. Even slow to charge on CCS.
Still over-priced for its features, IMO.
But I do wonder what the new LW will be like. There is a lot that they can improve.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
I just bought my 2020 LW yesterday for $22k MSRP. It was a demo model and the dealer wanted it gone. I test drove it the day before the LiveWire event and held out on a deal until that happened. The dealer tried to get me to buy at $25k, but I told him unless he could compete with the LiveWire One MSRP - then I would take my happy ass down/up/over to CA, TX or NY to buy a 'new' LiveWireOne.
Within a few hours he called me and conceded $21,999. I traded in my 2017 DSR and walked (rode) away with a $16k 2020 LiveWire. Loving it so far and glad I waited until after the LW event to settle a price.
-
MMMMmm so the cheapest 2017 DSR listed on Cycle Trader is $12,500. You got $6k for the trade-in so you lost at least $4k from the value of the DSR. The Harley dealer went down $3k from his first asking price on a bike that they really did want to get rid of.
As long as you're happy, I know the dealer's happy.
-
DSRs go for about $11k in my area and I only paid $10k for it used and put 13K miles on it in less than 9 months.
I was given $8.5k as a trade in and this is the only HD LiveWire at a dealership in my state (from what I could tell when I purchased). Although they may have gotten a better deal on the trade in - I don't have to sit on it for a long time. The used EV market is hard, as people are skeptical about usage and charging. It's their problem now (selling it). I walked out at $16k - good enough for me.
-
DSRs go for about $11k in my area and I only paid $10k for it used and put 13K miles on it in less than 9 months.
I was given $8.5k as a trade in and this is the only HD LiveWire at a dealership in my state (from what I could tell when I purchased). Although they may have gotten a better deal on the trade in - I don't have to sit on it for a long time. The used EV market is hard, as people are skeptical about usage and charging. It's their problem now (selling it). I walked out at $16k - good enough for me.
There's definitely something to be said for making a bike sale the dealer's problem - they are better equipped to do it, have the time to do it, and if they can't sell it on their floor, they have access to wholesale channels to dump it. I've tried to sell three bikes recently and it was a huge waste of my time and in the end I was only able to sell one for more than what the dealer would've offered me in trade. A bike is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it. Book value be damned.
-
:) just a cheeky comment on my part.
I read the post then thought good deal then I thought wait not so good a deal.
All kidding aside it's a shame more people don't buy and sale private any more. Better for both parties.
Most people can't get a loan for a used vehicle at the bank and sellers get tired of waiting so it is what it is.
Yours will be the more valuable Livewire in years to come, so there is that.
-
DSRs go for about $11k in my area and I only paid $10k for it used and put 13K miles on it in less than 9 months.
I was given $8.5k as a trade in and this is the only HD LiveWire at a dealership in my state (from what I could tell when I purchased). Although they may have gotten a better deal on the trade in - I don't have to sit on it for a long time. The used EV market is hard, as people are skeptical about usage and charging. It's their problem now (selling it). I walked out at $16k - good enough for me.
There's definitely something to be said for making a bike sale the dealer's problem - they are better equipped to do it, have the time to do it, and if they can't sell it on their floor, they have access to wholesale channels to dump it. I've tried to sell three bikes recently and it was a huge waste of my time and in the end I was only able to sell one for more than what the dealer would've offered me in trade. A bike is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it. Book value be damned.
Yep, and if they have someone in another state or region that runs a dealership - they're more likely to work up some exchange or back scratch. I think the biggest hurdle is that no one knows EV motorcycles exist beyond our little community. When I bought my DSR, I drove all the way to CT from VA to buy it - there just wasn't anything closer for a good deal. The owner just wanted to get rid of it at that point.
-
:) just a cheeky comment on my part.
I read the post then thought good deal then I thought wait not so good a deal.
All kidding aside it's a shame more people don't buy and sale private any more. Better for both parties.
Most people can't get a loan for a used vehicle at the bank and sellers get tired of waiting so it is what it is.
Yours will be the more valuable Livewire in years to come, so there is that.
Yep, it is a shame. I think once the communities get bigger and more main stream (for EV moto), selling privately won't be an issue. I didn't want to pass up on the Harley Davidson branding - it gets a double "holy ****, it's a Harley!?" when people come over to check it out when I charge.
-
I have yet to see a LiveWire in person. But I should rectify that situation at the Northern California motorcycle show this weekend, where they will be offering test rides on the bike. ;)
On the other hand, I have already seen a couple of H-D's new 1250cc ICE V-twin adventure models recently that were introduced to the market earlier his month.
-
One came to the bike church down here last year. It was quite a sexy bike, Richard.
-Crissa
-
One came to the bike church down here last year. It was quite a sexy bike, Richard.
-Crissa
Yeah, it almost looks like it is worth 30K$. Looks much better in real life than in photos. But not my type of bike for other reasons.
-Don- Auburn, CA