ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: rogerpiano on June 07, 2021, 11:45:45 PM
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Hello everybody. Unfortunately I find myself writing because of a serious problem and I was hoping I would never have to do it ...
This is the summary:
- Zero S 2019 11kw, 8000 km traveled
For two years the bike was perfect. Last week I decided to have the maintenance done by an official dealer who has just started their business in my region. I traveled 250km (on one charge!) At 70km / h on average and hit the dealership.
He made the following interventions:
- replacement of the belt (he felt he had to replace it because there were cuts)
- motor calibration with the bike connected to the PC (this was the intervention for which I decided to do maintenance)
- installation of led headlights (high / low beams and position light)
- cleaning
I went home (another 250 km always at 70 km / h on average, this time I did a 10% top-up because I had a headwind).
Yesterday I got back on the bike two days after that trip and disaster happened.
I drove an easy 8km at 80-90km / h, then I accelerated more vigorously and felt like I was losing power for a moment.
The bike then began to vibrate as if I had a puncture in the rear and I saw that the engine temperature was rising rapidly.
I have slowly managed to take it to a traditional mechanic who will keep it parked waiting for news.
- I downloaded the logs and sent them to the dealer. "Low chassis isolation" appears and a sudden rise in temperature from 50 ° to 82 ° within a minute (06718 and 06719 of the log)
- Errors 20-28-29 appear on the display
- The motorcycle starts up regularly and starts, but there is an intermittent red flash on the display.
- The rear wheel jerks both forward and backward and is like braking. Removing the belt the wheel turns normally, so I assume something has happened to the engine
I am desperate! :'(
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Low isolation means a unsafe or dangerous path to ground was detected on the high voltage circuit. Spike in motor temperature may be a tell tale to where the fault lies.
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This is neither here nor there to the original problem BUT: 11kw?? I thought the S (in Europe) was either 7.2 or 14.4?
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That's the power output, not the battery size.
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This is neither here nor there to the original problem BUT: 11kw?? I thought the S (in Europe) was either 7.2 or 14.4?
11kW refers to the motor power, not the battery capacity (which would be in kWh).
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Honestly it sounds like he screwed up the motor calibration. Needs to be redone.
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Yep the back and forth is the tell tale sign.
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Commissioning.
That's what it's called. Couldn't remember the term.
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Honestly it sounds like he screwed up the motor calibration. Needs to be redone.
I think it is the most probable hypothesis.
I attended the implementation and I noticed some oddities.
The software, after connecting with the bike, asked you to move the rear wheel with your hand and the dealer moved it backwards.
Setup started on the PC display but never seemed to finish.
He insisted on repeating this several times until I suggested that he spin the wheel forward with his hand.
At that point the implementation (# 3 I believe) took only a few minutes.
This third implementation produced log files which, according to him, were free of errors. I asked to send them to me but at the moment I haven't had them yet.
What I am wondering is:
- the engine jerks both forward and backward. Does this mean it has sustained permanent damage?
- could it be reset with a new calibration or should it be replaced?
-How can I prove that there was an error on his part?
For all the 250 km of the return I never accelerated sharply and I kept the speed of 70km / h so as not to have to recharge. The problem arose at the first real acceleration after two days.
I also wanted to add (and here I think I will open a new thread) that already in September 2020 I would have wanted to do the installation but the dealer from whom I bought my Zero did not even know what I was talking about. I approached this new dealer with the hope that he was prepared but I am beginning to think it would have been better not to do anything.
(sorry for the automatic translation)
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No, the jerking is the motor trying to spin but 'misfiring' the alternating current impulses to the motor. It reads an encoder for the motor position and if it reads wrong, this can happen. I suppose if you do it enough you could bend something, but a few time, most likely not. It has to deal with far more pressure when you're accelerating normally.
Yes, a new calibration fixes the position of the encoder marks.
That it doesn't work right after he touched it is proof, it doesn't just pop off after a few miles like that. His repair should have worked for thousands of miles. It's very rare to go out of commission.
-Crissa
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What about the decoder though? Is that a part that's prone to failing for any reason?
Cas :)
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What about the decoder though? Is that a part that's prone to failing for any reason?
No, it's about as basic a component as it comes, and hence, is built into the motor and controller. They're a solid-state component but I don't know whether it's a hall sensor or a photoresistor. If it fails, the motor is probably corroded in some horrible way.
^-^
-Crissa
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What about the decoder though? Is that a part that's prone to failing for any reason?
No, it's about as basic a component as it comes, and hence, is built into the motor and controller. They're a solid-state component but I don't know whether it's a hall sensor or a photoresistor. If it fails, the motor is probably corroded in some horrible way.
^-^
-Crissa
There is the possibility that the encoder is broken. Whether the magnetic sensor is broken, or the magnet is no longer securely attached to the motor shaft, this definitely can happen. While it's a big difficult to tell from what you said, if it didn't complete the process consistently, that's not a good sign.
Improper motor calibration does not cause isolation faults usually, but it would cause the motor jerking as you described. It's also odd that you were able to ride it for a while, That could suggest the motor magnet issue.
Your logs should shed some light on it, but if I recall the unoffical decoder doesn't do well with decoding motor controller errors.
Sorry you're having problems with your bike and the dealer.
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Did anyone have these error's before?
06750 06/03/2021 14:36:13 Sevcon not ready to be checked for 11kW, Disabling Bike until a battery has connected and we can check the sevcon
06770 06/03/2021 14:41:01 SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame Error Code: 0x4000, Error Reg: 0x09 Sevcon Error Code: 0x4603, Data: 0x00 0xff 0x00 0xa0 0x01 , Unknown
I see them in your log..... but i have never seen them before.
In anycase it all sounds as if you have a mis-allignment causing the motor to heat up since it is unable to supply the current at the correct times.
It would explain why you are able to drive at "low" speeds, but unable to drive a high speeds. I cannot think of any other way for you motorcycle to behave like this. At least nothing that you could have done to cause it.
Let us assume that Zero's bike protects itself from high temperatures and will cut-off it self in advance.
I am not to sure what the Low isolation faults are. I do not understand them in general. https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Gen2/Isolation_Faults (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Gen2/Isolation_Faults) might help.
It does state something regarding the motor controller. That would mean that every symptom could have 1 cause.... motor realignment...
Might it be an idea to go to another zero dealer?
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Thanks everyone for the answers.
I am a musician and I owe everything I know about Zero to this wonderful forum, which I will never stop thanking. But my knowledge is pretty basic.
The error that signals victor6.7y also appears in all the logs of the previous months, in which the bike was perfect.
About ten days before going to the dealer I sent him all the logs by email to understand that type of error. He handed them over to the Zero technicians and the answer was that if the bike went well, there was nothing to worry about.
Tomorrow I will take a van and take the bike back to the dealer, but I am very disheartened.
His responses, immediately after the disaster, were:
1) You made the firmware update wrong. The last update had to be done partially (without battery update I think), and this is a suggestion from the Zero technicians (...)
2) Try turning off and on again
3) Remove the belt and check the rotation of the rear wheel. It's definitely a bearing problem
4) (When I assumed that the motor bearing was broken) These motors have no bearings
The dealer from whom I bought the S (220km) in September 2020 knew nothing about the implementation. This is the second reseller (270km) who, at least on its site, is a Zero Authorized Technician.
I would like this forum to give me above all the hope of still being able to believe in Zero. Until last week I was enthusiastic, I was promoting electric mobility with all my friends, but now the temptation to give up everything is starting to rise. This thing has really demoralized me
I don't even know if, with a new calibration, the problem can be solved and if, in this case, I can still trust the bike.
I imagine that I will go through the replacement of the motor, and it must be considered that at the time of the break the warranty had expired for about 20 days!
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It is possible that irreparable damage was done to the motor. Tesla’s with permanent magnet rotors like ours are not recommended to be towed on flat surfaces past 5mph. Doing so could demagnetize the rotor.
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Update
The bike has been at the dealer for a week and he says it is being worked on and that he awaits the response from the Zero technicians.
If just a week is not enough to understand the problem, I imagine that I will be able to get the bike back in a few months
In the meantime, I publish here the logs of the maintenance he carried out.
I am not able to fully understand them and I hope someone here can help me.
Surely in the final part of the files I notice some not very reassuring messages, and I wondered if the bike could be put back on the road after a maintenance in the presence of those messages.
Please give me a hand to understand what I can do :'(
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The second set of logs you posted are from the 28th, and do not include the dates you had the issue. My best guess of the isolation fault + temp jump in the motor from your original logs are that the coatings on some of your motor windings have partially worn through. If that's the case, it'll probably be a couple weeks to get a new motor and a few hours to install it.
I'm assuming that its not the encoder/commissioning process, as that doesn't usually cause isolation faults and should have been apparent before you rode it away.
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The maintenance was done on May 28th, I went home on the 29th and got back on the bike on June 3rd when the problem occurred.
I would also like to think of an unfortunate coincidence of the event but I find it hard to think that nothing happened for two years and immediately after the engine maintenance, as soon as I exceeded about 90 km / h, the problem occurred. Even only from a statistical point of view it would be a really curious coincidence.
I'd like to understand what the last lines of the maintenance logs mean where it seems to me there are anomalies (I am attaching the extract of the logs)
Unfortunately, several solutions are coming to mind if the problem does not resolve itself quickly, including completely abandoning the two wheels.
I would not be able to switch to a petrol bike, I liked my Zero and the dealer promptly offered me to trade it in to buy another one, but the prices offered are beyond all logic.
The disappointment is great
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Those dates are... out of sequence. The corruption was probably from the system crashing after the faults, but ouch.
-Crissa
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Update
Eventually I had to replace the engine.
It is not clear what happened and whether the failure is related to the commissioning carried out a few days earlier. The dealer's hypothesis is that the engine was defective, but the timing of the breakdown remains very doubtful.
Now the new engine has a one year warranty and I would like to understand how I should adjust for the engine to be put into service at 600 miles, as I have great concern about that.
On the one hand, I think that if I hadn't done the commissioning in May, perhaps nothing would have happened, but then I also think that the problem was perhaps caused by having done it at 8500 km (again because the first dealer was unaware of its existence)
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I would be rather upset if a repair didn't come with any warranty.
I'm glad you were able to get back on the road!
-Crissa
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Now the new engine has a one year warranty and I would like to understand how I should adjust for the engine to be put into service at 600 miles, as I have great concern about that.
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It was explained to me that the performance of permanent magnets does vary and may drift out of specification after heat cycling (in-use from use of the motorcycle on rides). The most significant shift occurs in the first 600 miles approx. of use, and after that there is no significant expected shift to occur so then it is preventative maintenance to detect whether there is some bigger problem or failure.
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I would be rather upset if a repair didn't come with any warranty.
I'm glad you were able to get back on the road!
Thanks Crissa. Unfortunately I had to pay for the replacement, even though Zero gave me a discount on the engine.
I would like to understand which hypothesis, in your opinion, is the most likely:
1) Failure to put into service at 600 miles led to engine failure
2) Incorrect dealer commissioning led to engine failure
3) Proper dealer commissioning triggered something that led to engine failure
4) Extreme bad luck
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Definitely 4, but my money is on who-touched-it-last.
-Crissa