ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Kill3rT0fu on May 11, 2021, 10:24:36 PM
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I'm looking into getting a charge tank, but the biggest thing for me is speed of charge. My ideal situation is a 6kw fast charger like the SR/F. But in doing my research, I see there's people still seeking DigiNow v2.5 chargers, there's Elcon chargers, and there's QuiqChargers.... Some of you only have 3.3kw chargers installed, some of you have 6. What made you pick the chargers you did over just getting a charge tank?
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DigiNow, TCCharger and Elcon are all the same charger.
I sold my QuiQ chargers and bought some TC chargers, cause the QuiQ are low power for their size, weight and cost.
The charge tank costs over 2000, I payed half of that for 2 TCs, getting slightly more power and I can use them for any future homemade electric vehicle:)
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DigiNow, TCCharger and Elcon are all the same charger.
I sold my QuiQ chargers and bought some TC chargers, cause the QuiQ are low power for their size, weight and cost.
The charge tank costs over 2000, I payed half of that for 2 TCs, getting slightly more power and I can use them for any future homemade electric vehicle:)
Similar. You cannot buy the ones we (digiNow) offered because TC made them specially to our specs. Elcon is a US distributor for TC.
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DigiNow, TCCharger and Elcon are all the same charger.
I sold my QuiQ chargers and bought some TC chargers, cause the QuiQ are low power for their size, weight and cost.
The charge tank costs over 2000, I payed half of that for 2 TCs, getting slightly more power and I can use them for any future homemade electric vehicle:)
How did you decide to mount the 2 TCs? And how fast do they charge?
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32 amps
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well 6.6kW for a roughly 10kWh battery means about one and a half hour. (I have a 12.5kWh battery but the real capacity is about 10).
I mounted them in the tank.
@MVetter what was the special spec? Since they charge CCCV, I'd imagine CC and CV is all that's needed.
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I'm looking into getting a charge tank, but the biggest thing for me is speed of charge. My ideal situation is a 6kw fast charger like the SR/F. But in doing my research, I see there's people still seeking DigiNow v2.5 chargers, there's Elcon chargers, and there's QuiqChargers.... Some of you only have 3.3kw chargers installed, some of you have 6. What made you pick the chargers you did over just getting a charge tank?
I use a couple of Elcons, but only for longer trips. I keep the bike light for local stuff, with plenty of storage space. But for longer trips, a 3.3 KW charger goes in each sidebag and with the OBC I can charge at close to 8KW when on the road, more than most J-1772 stations can handle, but I have ways to deal with such, like not using the OBC or using two J-1772 stations.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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You guys think I could fit 4 3300w TC elcon chargers under the bottom pan?
Can I use a charge tank in conjunction with 2 extra TC chargers?
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Uhh... technically, but not sure why you'd not just get the OEM charger on the F platform bikes?
-Crissa
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I considered the SR/F because it had fast charging. But I just didn't like the bike. I sat on it, and tried so hard to like it. The SR was more my style and comfort. I also don't take long enough rides to justify the SR/F, and these mods I'm doing to the SR are a "just in case" type thing.
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I considered the SR/F because it had fast charging. But I just didn't like the bike. I sat on it, and tried so hard to like it. The SR was more my style and comfort. I also don't take long enough rides to justify the SR/F, and these mods I'm doing to the SR are a "just in case" type thing.
If you consider any AC charging as "fast" at 6KW max. But if you have the charge tank and can charge at 12KW, that is almost as fast as the CCS on my Energica when I charge at HD shops, perhaps 15KW max.
I also didn't care for the lack of comfort on the SR/F, but it sure performed very well.
The SR/S is MUCH better for comfort.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I considered the SR/F because it had fast charging. But I just didn't like the bike. I sat on it, and tried so hard to like it. The SR was more my style and comfort. I also don't take long enough rides to justify the SR/F, and these mods I'm doing to the SR are a "just in case" type thing.
If you consider any AC charging as "fast" at 6KW max. But if you have the charge tank and can charge at 12KW, that is almost as fast as the CCS on my Energica when I charge at HD shops, perhaps 15KW max.
I also didn't care for the lack of comfort on the SR/F, but it sure performed very well.
The SR/S is MUCH better for comfort.
-Don- Auburn, CA
The SR/F is the far superior bike, but yeah, specs are one thing. Making sure my back is going to be okay is top priority.
What's your preferred way to achieve 12kw charging on the SR? The charge tank is only 6kw. Wouldn't that mean finding some other place to mount 2 more 6kw chargers?
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...some other place to mount 2 more 6kw chargers?
Yes, probably side bags like Don does.
Tho only 6kW of more chargers, the Zero won't accept more than 12 of charging.
-Crissa
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What's your preferred way to achieve 12kw charging on the SR? The charge tank is only 6kw. Wouldn't that mean finding some other place to mount 2 more 6kw chargers?
I don't mount mine. I like to keep the bike light with luggage I can use for local stuff. But if I need a charge on a road trip, I can charge as high as around 8KW, ten when at home by adding in a couple of Delta Q's to my two 3.3 KW Elcons and OBC.
I rarely need to charge at ten KW when home, but I have done so a couple of times.
-Don- Reno, NV
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What's your preferred way to achieve 12kw charging on the SR? The charge tank is only 6kw. Wouldn't that mean finding some other place to mount 2 more 6kw chargers?
I don't mount mine. I like to keep the bike light with luggage I can use for local stuff. But if I need a charge on a road trip, I can charge as high as around 8KW, ten when at home by adding in a couple of Delta Q's to my two 3.3 KW Elcons and OBC.
I rarely need to charge at ten KW when home, but I have done so a couple of times.
-Don- Reno, NV
Ultimately this seems to be the path I'm going down. Get the charge tank, and then get some saddle tanks with some chargers. Because I don't do long trips often (never gone more than 35 miles, even on an ICE bike ) I'd like to start, and a temporary removable setup seems best.
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Ultimately this seems to be the path I'm going down. Get the charge tank, and then get some saddle tanks with some chargers. Because I don't do long trips often (never gone more than 35 miles, even on an ICE bike ) I'd like to start, and a temporary removable setup seems best.
If you never do more than 35 miles, why even get extra chargers?
It could make more sense for you to get the power tank, just to add a little range. And then you can still add chargers. I charge my 2017 SR at 8KW on the road and it has a power tank. I have taken several all day trips (>150 miles) on my electrics. But for 35 miles, or 70 miles round trip, if you have the larger battery, you shouldn't need anything else. If I were going only 35 miles, 70 miles round trip, I would not bring anything extra on my SR.
-Don- Reno, NV
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If you rarely go further, the power tank makes even less sense, don.
-Crissa
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If you rarely go further, the power tank makes even less sense, don.
-Crissa
It helps prevent range anxiety on a 70 mile round trip. Conditions change a little almost every day. Perhaps a head wind one day and the power tank makes the difference.
FWIW, the charge tank is usually better for MUCH longer trips than the power tank. Depends on how far. My SR has better range than my Energica but notice I took the Energica for my trip to Livermore. The power tank is better for shorter long trips as then no recharge is necessary.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I often see the Elcon/TC chargers recommended in these threads, but it’s still unclear to me how to get one. I’ve been to sites like elconchargers.com — I’m curious what inputs buyers provide to them to end up with an appropriate charger — just the kwh of the battery, and the desired charging wattage? Do they ship them with the Zero battery connector?
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They're not shipped with a Zero Adapter, if you buy from China. I bought mine at evcomponents, but there's much faster (and more expensive) places to buy them from the EU.
There was a thread in the last few weeks with the exact details to give to them in order to charge a Zero. Go back one or two pages in the threads:) tell me if you can't find it
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I often see the Elcon/TC chargers recommended in these threads, but it’s still unclear to me how to get one. I’ve been to sites like elconchargers.com — I’m curious what inputs buyers provide to them to end up with an appropriate charger — just the kwh of the battery, and the desired charging wattage? Do they ship them with the Zero battery connector?
Just talk to Sayyed at Elcon and tell him it's for a Zero. He is the one who programmed mine for both my Zeros.
I wired mine to the motor controller battery contacts. But perhaps you can get a connector to work with your Quick Charger cable if you don't want to wire it in yourself.
Tell him you do not want to bother with the CANBUS BS. But at 95% SOC, your OBC will do all of the charging to 100%. The non-CANBUS Elcons will switch off at 95% SOC. I use that time to put to disconnect and put my Elcon chargers away as the OBC is still charging to 100%.
But it's best for the battery to simply disconnect at 95% SOC anyway when you do not need the extra range, but with an occasional charge to full for better cell balancing.
-Don- Reno, NV
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If you rarely go further, the power tank makes even less sense, don.
-Crissa
I was never really adventurous enough to want to. Now that I know the area, I'm wanting to explore the state more and more willing to do it on a bike.
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If you rarely go further, the power tank makes even less sense, don.
I was never really adventurous enough to want to. Now that I know the area, I'm wanting to explore the state more and more willing to do it on a bike.
A Power Tank is a single battery module. So it just gets a Zero about 25% further..
A Charge Tank is more useful to explore with, as you can recharge to full in just over two hours. That means with a half hour charge on a compatible charge point you can regain the same energy a Power Tank contains.
-Crissa
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Yeah, on the Gen2 bikes with their Either/Or configuration a Charge Tank makes a lot more sense for where I live. There are L2 stations popping up everywhere like mushrooms after a rain storm. Getting up to 80% is usually an hour or less with my 13kWh battery, enough time for a leisurely lunch or to read a few chapters on my Kindle before continuing on.
If you live where L2 chargers are few and far between then I could see the logic for the Power Tank though. Bear in mind that the larger the battery capacity, the longer it will take to recharge. Everything is a compromise. TANSTAAFL.
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Bear in mind that the larger the battery capacity, the longer it will take to recharge. Everything is a compromise. TANSTAAFL.
Not exactly true. To charge to full, it takes longer. But you get the same distance added per minute of charge. Perhaps even a little better on the larger battery because you have a wider midrange where it can accept a higher current rate when you avoid the upper end.
So other than weight, the larger battery has nothing but advantages. You have a choice to charge to full.
Another advantage is a larger battery on the same load will have a much longer service life.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The math isn't adding up. Charging even to 80% on the larger capacity battery is going to take longer than charging to 80% on the smaller battery. And if you don't plan on charging it all the way up, what's the point?? Might as well stick with the smaller battery and save the $$$ and weight.
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The math isn't adding up. Charging even to 80% on the larger capacity battery is going to take longer than charging to 80% on the smaller battery. And if you don't plan on charging it all the way up, what's the point?? Might as well stick with the smaller battery and save the $$$ and weight.
The math is near perfect. Yes, it takes twice as long (or just a little less) to charge to 80% to get DOUBLE the distance with the larger battery that is double in size.
Yes, get the smaller battery unless the next charge station is past your range. With the larger battery you have the choice. That is the nice thing. You have no such choice with the small battery if you don't have the range to the next charge station. You simply cannot get there.
Seems you're making the mistake that if one has the larger battery they must charge to full. Charge to 50% in the same time as a battery half the size to full. And get the same range, or a little better on the larger battery even then because you don't have the slow down at the end of the SOC.
The only argument for NOT having the larger battery is weight.
And the larger capacity battery will also have a much longer service life.
And my Energica has the smaller battery, so you know I am not being biased by what I own. I certainly would prefer the larger, and I would only rarely then charge to full.
But IMO, more charge locations are more important than a larger battery. But both is best.
They should rate battery charge rate in MPH (miles added per hour of charge). You would then see why the larger double KWH battery is better. More than twice as better.
-Don- Reno, NV
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If you have the larger battery, you're still stuck charging at 17mph, instead of 60mph with the Charge Tank.
Larger battery doesn't reduce your charging time unless your trip is inside its capacity.
-Crissa
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If you have the larger battery, you're still stuck charging at 17mph, instead of 60mph with the Charge Tank.
Larger battery doesn't reduce your charging time unless your trip is inside its capacity.
-Crissa
The battery charge slows down a lot near the end of the SOC. On both batteries. At around 85% SOC and drops even lower as you get near full. Perhaps down to two KW, about the same as you charge at, where the difference is much less noticeable.
Say we have two different batteries. Say a 10KWH and a 5KWH.
Let's assume the 10 KW is good for 80 miles. 40 miles for the 5 KWH.
Charge both to get 40 miles added range from the same CCS charger.
The ten KWH will be MUCH faster, especially at higher charge rates.
Charge both from a 20 KW charger. The larger battery will be charging at 20 KW at 50% SOC. The smaller battery will be charging from that same charger at 3 KW max at above 90% SOC. The BMS will not allow more than that above 90% SOC.
So the larger battery has to wait for the smaller battery to get done to go the same distance from the same charger.
That makes the larger battery MUCH faster to charge from the same charger for the same distance than from the smaller battery.
The larger battery will also have to be at 90% SOC to slow down, but you will disconnect at 50% for the same distance, when it is still getting the full 20KW, unlike the smaller battery, then getting a 3KW charge from that 20kw Charger.
The slowdown at 90% SOC is very noticeable on Zeros as well when charging at 6KW or above. Near the end, you may as well just use the OBC as there isn't that much difference between the OBC and a 6KW charger at above 90% SOC.
One of the major reasons why I didn't care if my Elcons shut off totally at 95% SOC. So I get 1.4 KWs instead of 2KW at 95% SOC. Not a big deal.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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If you have the larger battery, you're still stuck charging at 17mph, instead of 60mph with the Charge Tank.
Larger battery doesn't reduce your charging time unless your trip is inside its capacity.
-Crissa
I see you never thought about the reason they rate charge times to 80% SOC.
It's about the big slowdown above 80% SOC. And gets much worse as you get closer to 100%.
You need some experience on charging at 6KW and above on the road. It's obvious you have none at all.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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The battery charge slows down a lot near the end of the SOC. On...
Irrelevant to the question of Power Tank vs Charge Tank.
-Crissa
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Irrelevant to the question of Power Tank vs Charge Tank.
-Crissa
But was relevant to your previous post.
-Don-
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No, it wasn't, Don. The slowdown happens at the same battery percentage.
-Crissa
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No, it wasn't, Don. The slowdown happens at the same battery percentage.
-Crissa
Yes, it happens at around 80% SOC on each, regardless of battery size.
That is exactly why the larger battery will give more range at less charge time.
At 50% SOC on the double sized battery, the half sized battery will at 100% SOC. There is no slowdown at 50% SOC and only the smaller battery will have to get to the slowdown for the same range.
-Don- Reno, NV
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That's still more time, Don.
-Crissa
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That's still more time, Don.
-Crissa
Yes, the smaller battery will take more time to charge for the same range when the smaller battery is charged to 100% and the double sized battery is charged to 50%. Same range, less charge time, on the larger battery, just as I was saying.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Same range, less charge time, on the larger battery, just as I was saying.
No. It's the same charge time per miles, Don.
Only in the very edge case that you get to the ramp-down with the smaller battery and you don't with the big battery would there be a speed difference.
But it's an edge case that in practice you rarely encounter.
-Crissa
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No. It's the same charge time per miles, Don.
Only in the very edge case that you get to the ramp-down with the smaller battery and you don't with the big battery would there be a speed difference.
But it's an edge case that in practice you rarely encounter.
-Crissa
???
What is the difference between a "charging speed difference" and "miles per minute" of charge? And small batteries MUST charge to full to get the same range as a double sized battery at 50% SOC, therefor the larger battery charges faster, in most cases. A large battery doesn't nearly as often have a need to charge to full as a smaller battery.
In fact, I charge to 100% SOC every time on my DS on a trip. Almost never on my SR.
-Don- Reno, NV
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...small batteries MUST charge to full to get the same range as a double sized battery at 50% SOC, therefor the larger battery charges faster,
Oh, I see your confusion.
A Power Tank is not a double-sized battery.
Secondly, you don't need to charge to 100% of the smaller battery except in specific edge cases. Not 'most cases'.
A smaller battery has to charge more often, but it does not have to charge slower.
-Crissa
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.Oh, I see your confusion.
A Power Tank is not a double-sized battery.
I never claimed such. But the charge tank still helps avoid the charge slowdown for going the same distance as not having it.
IOW, I can charge longer at 8KW with no slowdown, because of the power tank, when I don't need the last 20% for extra range. IOW, the advantage of the power tank is more than range, also allows faster charging when a full charge is unnecessary.
It's faster to charge more often than less often because of this. On any EV, best to avoid the top 15 to 20% SOC to get more MPH of charge, as well for being better for the service life of the battery. That includes my Tesla as well as all three of my electric motorcycles.
IOW, charge to full when necessary to get to the next charge station. And once in a while for cell balancing, even if the extra range is not needed.
On today's ride, I will only charge to full in Schurz as I do not know if I will be able to slow charge in Yerington (no CCS there at all). I may have to make it all the way to Silver Springs (55 miles). I will stop all my other charges at around 85% SOC. The faster the charge, the more charge slowdown near the end above ~85% SOC.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I'm awestruck at the amount of urine still going here...the contest continues :o
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I'm awestruck at the amount of urine still going here...the contest continues :o
Well, I am done here on this subject anyway. I said all I wanted to say--and then some--on this issue. :)
-Don- Reno, NV
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I'm awestruck at the amount of urine still going here...the contest continues :o
I'm drenched bby
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For the sake of example, if I have the charge tank, how would I wire 2 extra 3kw chargers? Would I be able to charge through one socket? Or Would I need 2 charge ports?
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For the sake of example, if I have the charge tank, how would I wire 2 extra 3kw chargers? Would I be able to charge through one socket? Or Would I need 2 charge ports?
Need more info. 240 VAC outlets are normally good for close to 12KW. 120 VAC outlets are normally only good for less than 2 KW.
J-1772 is usually good for around 7KW, but varies.
-Don- Reno, NV
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For the sake of example, if I have the charge tank, how would I wire 2 extra 3kw chargers? Would I be able to charge through one socket? Or Would I need 2 charge ports?
Need more info. 240 VAC outlets are normally good for close to 12KW. 120 VAC outlets are normally only good for less than 2 KW.
J-1772 is usually good for around 7KW, but varies.
-Don- Reno, NV
I meant from a single J-1772 port. From a charging station.
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I meant from a single J-1772 port. From a charging station.
Do you mean you want to add chargers to an existing charge tank, using the same J-1772 inlet on the bike?
Technically, it is possible, but I am not sure about how mechanically possible. I have never seen the mechanics of the chargetank and how easy it will be to get in the connector cable. But with a 6KW charge tank, I probably wouldn't want to add chargers. Many ChargePoints can only handle 6.6 KW max, is one reason. But if the chargers use the J-1772 pilot signal to automatically lower all the chargers to be within the capacity of the charge station, then you can add as many as you want and all should be okay. So it depends on many things.
I do mine manually at each station, up to 8KW, sometimes I use two J-1772 adapters and two charge stations.
I have noticed I can go a little over the stated limit but not by a lot. A few hundred watts at the most and then a circuit breaker opens or whatever at the charge station. The newer Chargepoints will atomically reset themselves in around 30 seconds or so, IIRC. And will send you a message to your ChargePoint account that you have a charging problem.
-Don- Reno, NV