ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Marketplace => Buy Sell Trade => Topic started by: travbee on May 04, 2021, 09:29:41 AM
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Hope this is acceptable for me to post this.
I know I'm new to the forums - but would like to see if there is any interest in a group buy in some of the Elcon 3.3kw external chargers.
https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295140.htm
I have spoken with Sayyed @ Elcon quite a bit.
This charger fully programmed for our Zero is $750 + $45 shipping, when purchased alone.
If we can get commitment to 5 or more, the price drops substantially to $638 per charger (plus shipping.)
I plan to purchase 2, and I'm fairly confident from speaking with other members that there is plenty of interest for us to hit the 5 mark and save some money.
Post up if you're interested!
Also if this breaking forum rules in some way, I apologize. Please let me know how I can set this up with our members.
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I’d be interested.
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How are you planning to connect them to the bikes and AC power?
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I'm solidifying connections with Sayyed @ Elcon currently.
I'd like plug and play but am not staying thats what it will be.
I may possibly assist with adapters that connect from the SBS50 on the Elcon to the SBS75 on the accessory port.
This is still a work in progress.
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The DC out lines are the easy part. Right now the AC lines use a sumitomo for which you'll either need to get the other side of the connector or cut up the wires, re-pin, and use a new connector, then attach to a J1772 inlet with EVSE protocol.
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Well maybe that's where you come into play :) helping with the J to AC in portion.
I know you have the skillset :)
And I'm being entirely serious.
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I don't do a lot of road tripping these days, but carry an Elcon 2500 and QuiQ 1KW and J1772 Adaptor when I do.
Takes about 2 hours to fill. Might be interested in one if Plug and Play.
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Well maybe that's where you come into play :) helping with the J to AC in portion.
I know you have the skillset :)
And I'm being entirely serious.
I will not be offering such a service; been down that road before.
What Brandon and I are still kicking around, however is the idea of open-sourcing everything. And I mean everything. The v2.5 code, the beta code that obeyed EVSE protocols with dub-j but was never finalized, the emergency v3 code. With it I would probably make one video of every step/connector and modification done to one of these units to make it similar to the ones we used to make/sell. I think Brandon is more interested in getting at least a little bit of money for his code, as he did put a ton of work into it, before making it open to all, and I think he has absolutely zero interest in showing people how to hack up chargers. So if we do this he'd explain the software side of things and I'd need a donor unit and aaaaallllll the components necessary to make one; I'd then do that part on my own.
In theory.
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...What Brandon and I are still kicking around, however is the idea of open-sourcing everything. And I mean everything. The v2.5 code, the beta code that obeyed EVSE protocols with dub-j but was never finalized, the emergency v3 code. With it I would probably make one video of every step/connector and modification done to one of these units to make it similar to the ones we used to make/sell...
That ship has sailed years ago concerning fear about good will from Zero - a then-precarious situation of not wanting to sandbag the only reputable EV moto manufacturer of that period. Now there's easy-enough access to parts and technical information that I wouldn't be too concerned about unfinished code and documenting everything upfront... release the trove as-is in reproducible source form (no firmware binaries) as a git scm repository? Is there any legally-protected secret sauce in the from Zero to worry about?
If you give it away it frees you up to create revenue from new content (making videos, hyping up interesting pull requests, patreon, drawing attention to new projects) instead of worrying about whether what you've got is presentable. There are independently developed arduino sketches with source code to control the 3.3kW module on Zero bikes... nothing too fancy but Zero now sells a bike with optional 12kW charging and there's the L3-capable Energica... publishing that DigiNow Supercharger information on a permissive open source license would be a great way to showcase the advantages the product had over "good enough" DIY solutions.
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I ordered one before I saw this thread, oops. Is this still active?
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I’m interested (possibly in two units).
Will need to figure it all out as I’ve got Zero experience in EV charging other then the built in 120v on my DSR.
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This is still 100% active. I'm waiting for Sayyed from Elcon to get some parts to make these more plug and play for us - apparently go time will be around end of May.
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If those parts solve the AC connector issues that MVetter referenced, then I'm in for two.
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These SHOULD be set up with a standard US style AC cable.
I will email Sayyed again to see how close we are to getting the required parts.
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I would definitely be interested.
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Travbee, it's really nice of you to work with the forum to get a group buy together.
I would want a lot more info on how this is set up and what is needed.
I would have some interest in one but I would want it to have the Andersen connector for the output so plug and play with the Zero.
Also some type of options for input, either J plug or Nema 14-50 or both.
I would assume a 3.3 kw charger would trip the breaker of any other US outlet if it pulls 32 Amps. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
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Yes, standard US outlets allow 15a or 20a. And you really shouldn't max them out.
-Crissa
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I would assume a 3.3 kw charger would trip the breaker of any other US outlet if it pulls 32 Amps. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
The charger will not pull 32 amps of AC power. That number is the output on the DC side.
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The charger will not pull 32 amps of AC power. That number is the output on the DC side.
It'll pull about 16a at 240v, but US outlets are not generally 240v.
I don't know what it'll do if given half the voltage it wants, but I wouldn't try it.
-Crissa
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I am fairly certain these chargers are half the power (1.7kw) at 120v and only 3.3kw at 220v, but confirmation from your source would be good.
See the attachment from elconchargers.com
https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295140.htm
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That would be really handy. You might be able to replace the onboard charger with a spec like that.
-Crissa
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I am fairly certain these chargers are half the power (1.7kw) at 120v and only 3.3kw at 220v, but confirmation from your source would be good.
See the attachment from elconchargers.com
https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295140.htm (https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295140.htm)
Yes, the Elcons even come stock with 120 VAC plugs. AFAIK, all EV chargers can accept any AC voltage for around 90 to 250 VAC. I have never tried my Elcons out on 120 VAC, but I would expect them to work at half the DC power output.
-Don- Reno, NV
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from Elcons spec sheet @ https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295140.htm
Output Power 3300W @220vac or 1600W@110VAC
Which AC plug is included? A NEMA 5-20p, or the Sumitomo mentioned in other threads?
I am currently charging with the OBC @ 220v by plugging into an old dryer 10-30R receptacle with a Parkworld 886334 adapter (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078PHY3ZJ?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details). I could have made the adapter myself cheaper but I was hesitant to do so originally.
If I wanted to charge with both the 1300w OBC and one 3300w Elcon at 220 v at the same time I will need to buy/make a splitter to charge both from the same 30 amp max (24 amp continuous) circuit.
Draw: 15 amp Elcon + 6 amp OBC = 21 amps so I should be ok.
Finally, to charge with only the Elcon I need to keep the bike keyed on, plug it in and it will charge to 95%?
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I am fairly certain these chargers are half the power (1.7kw) at 120v and only 3.3kw at 220v, but confirmation from your source would be good.
See the attachment from elconchargers.com
https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295140.htm (https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295140.htm)
Yes, the Elcons even come stock with 120 VAC plugs. AFAIK, all EV chargers can accept any AC voltage for around 90 to 250 VAC. I have never tried my Elcons out on 120 VAC, but I would expect them to work at half the DC power output.
-Don- Reno, NV
I have used 120 with my charger, and it does charge at half power in that situation. The documentation is correct.
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Ok so it can take different AC voltage inputs and won't trip the breaker. That's good. So at "worst" it serves same as a Delta Q but for a bit more money.
Don I understand you have yours hooked up to your controller at the bike. You say it comes with a US 110 plug. Does that plug go into a C13 plug like the Delta Q charger or is it a permanent plug cord?
Also how do you hook up the J plugs either at your house or at stations?
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Ok so it can take different AC voltage inputs and won't trip the breaker. That's good. So at "worst" it serves same as a Delta Q but for a bit more money.
At "worst" it's still ~1.7kWh vs the DeltaQ which, I believe, is 1kWh.
Don I understand you have yours hooked up to your controller at the bike. You say it comes with a US 110 plug. Does that plug go into a C13 plug like the Delta Q charger or is it a permanent plug cord?
A standard US 110 plug is a NEMA 5-15p. There is a sumitomo (?) connection in line, but it still ends in NEMA plug.
Also how do you hook up the J plugs either at your house or at stations?
See this in another active thread:
Just bought a 2021 Zero S..Interested in the J1772 charge adapter. Will the one listed below work?
https://www.evseadapters.com/products/j1772-to-c-13-adapter-for-electric-motorcycle-scooter/ (https://www.evseadapters.com/products/j1772-to-c-13-adapter-for-electric-motorcycle-scooter/)
Yes, it will work if you do not ever want to add chargers.
A much better deal are these here. (https://tucsonev.com/)The 3 times C-13. Not shown, but ask and one will be made for you at a very reasonable price. The quality is the best you will find anywhere. The times 2 C-13 is shown. I had him make mine as three C-13's. That way I can use the OBC as well as two Delta Q's plus many other options with adapters (https://www.amazon.com/5-15R-Adapter-Vellcon-Female-Converter/dp/B06XVW2X8N/ref=sr_1_21?dchild=1&keywords=server+AC+adapter&qid=1621121247&sr=8-21)for the C-13.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I'd be interested in at least one if it's "plug and play". On the AC side I'd prefer C-19.
Anyone know what the 1C is for the 14.4 battery? Wondering if I get the 6KW Charge Tank installed and dub-J with two of these 3.3 Elcon's whether I'd remain within the 1C rating. My onboard is dead and I have no plans to replace it.
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I'd be interested in at least one if it's "plug and play". On the AC side I'd prefer C-19.
Anyone know what the 1C is for the 14.4 battery? Wondering if I get the 6KW Charge Tank installed and dub-J with two of these 3.3 Elcon's whether I'd remain within the 1C rating. My onboard is dead and I have no plans to replace it.
1C is normally close to the NOMINAL KWH rating of the battery. I would not want to go much over 12KW charging on your 14.4KW battery. While it could sound like you're slightly over with 12.6 KW, you will be fine. There will be a nice voltage drop at 12.6 KW that will most likely put you below the 12KW. So you will be okay, IMO, but I wouldn't want to charge at a higher rate than that.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Related to evdjerome’s question, if you exceed 1C and the external chargers are plugged into the accessory port will the bike just throttle back its charge tank speed to stay under 1C or will it cut out completely?
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Related to evdjerome’s question, if you exceed 1C and the external chargers are plugged into the accessory port will the bike just throttle back its charge tank speed to stay under 1C or will it cut out completely?
It will not, because it won't know that's happening.
You can pop the fuses in both the battery pack and the and EVSE that way.
-Crissa
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Related to evdjerome’s question, if you exceed 1C and the external chargers are plugged into the accessory port will the bike just throttle back its charge tank speed to stay under 1C or will it cut out completely?
IIRC, the battery fuse is 100 amps. 100 amps is 24KW at 240 VAC so you're unlikely to blow it. But the fuse for the DeltaQ charger is less, perhaps 50 amps? Sorry, I am not 100% sure but I think that is correct. Perhaps somebody here can verify.
If you're just a little over 1C, it just means the battery cells will get warmer than they should. Too much of it will be bad for the battery, but I doubt if a little over 1C for a few times will make that big of a difference compared to being just under 1C.
I don't think our Zero BMS will reduce the current for you. But some BMSes in other batteries will.
I have a $1,600.00 12 volt lith battery in my RV to run the house stuff. I could not blow it out if I try. The internal BMS takes care of everything possible. No fuse, but an internal circuit breaker. OTOH, it will never have the type of load our Zero batteries have as we speed up a hill. In fact, it's even very poor as an engine starting battery. It's designed for lighter loads only, but for a very long time. And is rated at 12.8 VDC at 95% discharged. No Lead acid battery can do such when only 5% is left. It's still good for loads such as running an inverter to a 1200 watt MW oven. A lot less current draw than engine starting or Zero motor. There are different designs of lith batteries, The ones in my RV are Lithium iron phosphate . (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery)
EV batteries are quite a bit different. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery)
And so is the BMS. (https://circuitdigest.com/article/battery-management-system-bms-for-electric-vehicles)
-Don- Reno, NV
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Don how do you plug in your AC power to these chargers?
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Don how do you plug in your AC power to these chargers?
I made or purchased many types of adapters, so I can charge from anything possible on my trips. J-1772, 14-50R, Tesla Destination, even weird stuff such as here. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/94986) Click on the photo and see the 4th photo for a closeup of the outlet there.
I wonder why I am the only check-in there . . . ;D
The chargers come with the usual 120 VAC USA AC plugs. But I always use them for 240 VAC and AFAIK, they do not make any adapters from 240 VAC to 120 VAC, so I make my own. Such as using one of these, (https://www.harborfreight.com/2-ft-triple-tap-3-outlet-extension-cord-56764.html) and chopping off the AC plug putting a 14-50P on the input.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Ok, wow.
So it comes with a Nema 5-15 plug. But a 15 amp 110 US outlet only gives you half of the 3.3kw power.
How can that cord handle the 220V 15amp power from a J plug converter? Or does it handle it with no problem?
IOW could it plug into the J adapter linked below and power the bike through the Andersen (my preferred method)?
I guess you need one of these like you kinked to. One plug each for an Elcon and one for the OBC, correct?
https://tucsonev.com/images/Zero/3-x-5-15-Combo.jpg
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I guess you need one of these like you kinked to. One plug each for an Elcon and one for the OBC, correct?
https://tucsonev.com/images/Zero/3-x-5-15-Combo.jpg (https://tucsonev.com/images/Zero/3-x-5-15-Combo.jpg)
Yes, that is what I use for my J-1772 connections. But with the C-14's. I use them with adapters (https://www.amazon.com/Toptekits-Adapter-5-15r-Converter-adaptor/dp/B002OFR6R4/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=5-15R+to+C14&qid=1621272047&sr=8-9) as necessary. That way I do not have to use the 120 VAC cord for my DeltaQ's or Elcons.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Related to evdjerome’s question, if you exceed 1C and the external chargers are plugged into the accessory port will the bike just throttle back its charge tank speed to stay under 1C or will it cut out completely?
IIRC, the battery fuse is 100 amps. 100 amps is 24KW at 240 VAC so you're unlikely to blow it. But the fuse for the DeltaQ charger is less, perhaps 50 amps? Sorry, I am not 100% sure but I think that is correct. Perhaps somebody here can verify.
If you're just a little over 1C, it just means the battery cells will get warmer than they should. Too much of it will be bad for the battery, but I doubt if a little over 1C for a few times will make that big of a difference compared to being just under 1C.
I don't think our Zero BMS will reduce the current for you. But some BMSes in other batteries will.
So it's possible to exceed 1C with Elcon external chargers plugged into the accessory port? I thought people used the battery terminals on the controller because the accessory port wouldn't allow for that.
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So it's possible to exceed 1C with Elcon external chargers plugged into the accessory port? I thought people used the battery terminals on the controller because the accessory port wouldn't allow for that.
Yes, I would NOT use the accessory port at 1C. That is not designed for 1C, put should be okay at 4KW (same as four DelatQ's).
There is very heavy current draw at the motor controller when the bike is being used at speed going up hill. Many KWs. So it must be capable of very high current, which will include charging, which will never get anything near the current the motor can safely draw.
Some here are saying if the controller bolts are not torqued correctly, either too tight or too loose, it can cause a fire. I probably have mine a bit over-torqued but it's been that way for years so I am not going to touch it.
-Don- Reno, NV
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In the past I've charged two Hollywood Electric 2.5 KW Elcons off the aux port. So 2.5 + 2.5 = 5 KW.
Is there any reason to think two of these 3.3 KW Elcons can't be charged together off of the aux port (6.6 KW)?
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In the past I've charged two Hollywood Electric 2.5 KW Elcons off the aux port. So 2.5 + 2.5 = 5 KW.
Is there any reason to think two of these 3.3 KW Elcons can't be charged together off of the aux port (6.6 KW)?
Zero says there is a four DeltaQ charger limit on those aux ports. That is 4KW. Above that, well we already know what Zero says, but that doesn't mean it cannot be done, but I would at least want to know the current rating of the charging fuse that is almost impossible to get to. And that still doesn't make it safe.
BTW, did Hollywood Electric say using two of their chargers was okay on the AUX port or did you simply do it on your own?
I would not be comfortable charging from there at 6.3 KW without having more info. But I wouldn't expect 5 KW to cause a problem.
I like they way I did mine using a separate 50 amp Anderson for each Elcon to the motor controller. There we know it can handle very high current.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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A 9.9kW set of diginows uses two 3.3’s that are crimped from 2->1->SBS connector that goes into the aux port, at full power it’s at most 30A? 4x Deltas would be 20A, but even that 50% increase is well within fuse limits
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I guess you need one of these like you kinked to. One plug each for an Elcon and one for the OBC, correct?
https://tucsonev.com/images/Zero/3-x-5-15-Combo.jpg (https://tucsonev.com/images/Zero/3-x-5-15-Combo.jpg)
Yes, that is what I use for my J-1772 connections. But with the C-14's. I use them with adapters (https://www.amazon.com/Toptekits-Adapter-5-15r-Converter-adaptor/dp/B002OFR6R4/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=5-15R+to+C14&qid=1621272047&sr=8-9) as necessary. That way I do not have to use the 120 VAC cord for my DeltaQ's or Elcons.
-Don- Reno, NV
Just a quick question, do you use the thunderstruck EVCC when you use j-1772? They say the EVCC basic doesn't include the additional 8 pin connector that allows for J-1772. Are these connections necessary for J-1772 at most charge stations or when using a Tesla to J-1772 connector?
Edit: According to a little research, it seems that the TusconEv adapters have a circuit inside of them that trigger the charge station, so in theory I wouldn't need the double price Thunderstruck EVCC Standard and could get away with the Thunderstruck EVCC basic controller
Edit 2: OP please count me out. I scored an Elcon 3.3kw on ebay for very cheap and will be doing the Thunderstruck controller method and modifying the charger connections myself. Will keep you all updated
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Edit: According to a little research, it seems that the TusconEv adapters have a circuit inside of them that trigger the charge station, so in theory I wouldn't need the double price Thunderstruck EVCC Standard and could get away with the Thunderstruck EVCC basic controller
I use no controller, no CANBUS connection. My Elcons switch off at 95% SOC and use no external hardware other than connectors any my own wiring.
I use a Tesla-Tap with Tesla Destination stations and I have adapters for outlets. If I can find AC voltage, I can charge up to 8 KW on my SR.
-Don- Reno, NV
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You don't need the EVCC if the charger is set up without a CANBUS configuration.
The EVCC is designed to control the charger output based on information it gets from the BMS of your vehicle through CAN, and handles the communication to the J-plug. The CANBUS protocol of Zero's BMS is not compatible with EVCC or charger, so you won't get "intelligent" charging.
If you want to use a CAN-enabled charger with an EVCC to control the output manually, you can, but is probably overly complex for what you actually need.
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You don't need the EVCC if the charger is set up without a CANBUS configuration.
The EVCC is designed to control the charger output based on information it gets from the BMS of your vehicle through CAN, and handles the communication to the J-plug. The CANBUS protocol of Zero's BMS is not compatible with EVCC or charger, so you won't get "intelligent" charging.
If you want to use a CAN-enabled charger with an EVCC to control the output manually, you can, but is probably overly complex for what you actually need.
The ebay unit I purchased is likely not programmed, but my zero fx has the 5.7 so I think I need to set a max current if I put two chargers together or it will trip 1c. I wonder if programming these is simple because it doesn't seem difficult to put an SBS75x on the battery terminals and resell if Elcon isn't willing to add the connector. Or an SBS50 to SBS75x harness could be put together and people can order their own Elcons.
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The ebay unit I purchased is likely not programmed, but my zero fx has the 5.7 so I think I need to set a max current if I put two chargers together or it will trip 1c. I wonder if programming these is simple because it doesn't seem difficult to put an SBS75x on the battery terminals and resell if Elcon isn't willing to add the connector. Or an SBS50 to SBS75x harness could be put together and people can order their own Elcons.
3.3KW plus your OBC would be what I would do in your case, keep it as simple as possible. Perhaps you can find an EV charger place such as Elcon in Sacramento, CA to program it for your Zero FX.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Just a heads up, I spoke with Sayyed - he does not have many of these units available.
StableOfZeros is planning to do a local pickup of the units, to avoid shipping them to me, and then shipping them to users.
One of them is spoken for by Joe Johnson from the FB Zero group.
StableOfZeros has claimed 2 I believe, which unfortunately only leaves ONE more at this time.
I'll work with StableOfZeros to PM people in order that they responded to this thread, and we can work on getting more units at a discount from Sayyed. The next batch is a month out.
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I’ll take it
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I think the fair way would be to go in order of who originally responded to this thread.
I'll work with Sayyed and StableOfZeros to aquire more in June.
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Haha sorry I misread your previous post. I thought you meant whoever posted next :)
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I'll pass on this round. Maybe June if he will make some more. Thanks.
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So that Elcon page shows 6 models beginning with HK-J-H. Which one is for the Zero?
Hope this is acceptable for me to post this.
I know I'm new to the forums - but would like to see if there is any interest in a group buy in some of the Elcon 3.3kw external chargers.
https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295140.htm
I have spoken with Sayyed @ Elcon quite a bit.
This charger fully programmed for our Zero is $750 + $45 shipping, when purchased alone.
If we can get commitment to 5 or more, the price drops substantially to $638 per charger (plus shipping.)
I plan to purchase 2, and I'm fairly confident from speaking with other members that there is plenty of interest for us to hit the 5 mark and save some money.
Post up if you're interested!
Also if this breaking forum rules in some way, I apologize. Please let me know how I can set this up with our members.
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So that Elcon page shows 6 models beginning with HK-J-H. Which one is for the Zero?
. I think the programming is the only difference, so it won't be any of those shown by specs, but will be the same hardware. Yours will be specially programmed for a Zero.
-Don- Reno, NV
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So that Elcon page shows 6 models beginning with HK-J-H. Which one is for the Zero?
Just has to be programmed to work with a zero. These work by keying on the bike, engaging the onboard charger, then plugging in the elcon, then keying off the bike.
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These work by keying on the bike, engaging the onboard charger, then plugging in the elcon, then keying off the bike.
If you're also using the OBC, you can keep the key out. No need for the key at all.
If that info came from Sayyed, it's because he doesn't own a Zero and doesn't understand that the OBC will automatically close the contactor without a key.
-Don- Reno, NV
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All I’m saying is I’ve had some issues with my OBC and it doesn’t wake the bike up sometimes. To eliminate any chance of not working right, I can only recommend key on first. But to be clear these will not wake the bike up.
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So that Elcon page shows 6 models beginning with HK-J-H. Which one is for the Zero?
. I think the programming is the only difference, so it won't be any of those shown by specs, but will be the same hardware. Yours will be specially programmed for a Zero.
-Don- Reno, NV
Well some of them are different voltages, I think I remember reading that the hardware could be different with different voltages. For our zeros we need H132-32 - or 96v nominal.
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Related to evdjerome’s question, if you exceed 1C and the external chargers are plugged into the accessory port will the bike just throttle back its charge tank speed to stay under 1C or will it cut out completely?
IIRC, the battery fuse is 100 amps. 100 amps is 24KW at 240 VAC so you're unlikely to blow it. But the fuse for the DeltaQ charger is less, perhaps 50 amps? Sorry, I am not 100% sure but I think that is correct. Perhaps somebody here can verify.
If you're just a little over 1C, it just means the battery cells will get warmer than they should. Too much of it will be bad for the battery, but I doubt if a little over 1C for a few times will make that big of a difference compared to being just under 1C.
I don't think our Zero BMS will reduce the current for you. But some BMSes in other batteries will.
DonTom, not to flame you, but you have mixed AC and DC amps in the same equation, and calculated 1C incorrectly. Current Zero batteries will not handle 24kW for very long. Also, using *NOMINAL* POWER to calculate what 1C is for a battery is backwards and can convey the wrong information.
Example: A given battery is 28Series4Parallel with cells that are 29Ah each. The nominal cell voltage from manufacturer is 3.65Vpc_nom (not 3.7Vpc_nom) and the maximum specified cell voltage is 4.15Vpc_max (not 4.2Vpc_max).
This means the battery is 29Ah*4P=116Ah. 1C should be accomplished by charging the battery at 116Amps for 1 hour. 116Amps should be the stated charging limit of this battery pack.
Engineer A calculates the battery is 3.65Vpc_nom*28S=102.2V_nom (average throughout SoC calculated in cell laboratory)
and further 102.2V_nom*116Ah = 11855.2Wh_nom = ~11.8kWh_nom (useful energy)
Marketer B likes bigger numbers and calculates (4.15Vpc_max*28S)*116Ah = ~13.4max_kWh (which means nothing to anyone but tax officials)
Consumer C often takes 11800Wh_nom or even worse 13400Wh_max and assumes that this power amount constantly would be equivalent to 1C constant throughout the charge.
The battery near 0% (near low voltage cut-off 0% not true zero) is around 3.0Vpc*28S=84V_empty.
The battery near 100% is around 4.15Vpc_max*28S=116.2V_max.
11.8kWh_nom/84V_empty= ~140.48Amps voiding the battery warranty by going above the real 1C of 116Amps!
11.8kWh_nom/116.2V_max=101.55A which is under 1C constant rate.
So in this case Consumer C would have temporarily went over the specified battery charging limit at any low State-of-Charge (SoC) and then charged at under what the battery is technically capable of at high SoC, just to stay at their nominal (or average) charge power rating. Consumer C made charging power constant but not the amps which is the standard charging profile for lithium batteries (CC/CV).
I used numbers from memory for the 2016 model year and they may be wrong, but the example should still be good to illustrate the dangers associated with assumptions/calculations based on nominal power. I believe the 2016 is actually 28Ah but IIRC some are stamped 29Ah or something. The engineers seem to use the 28 figure in their calculations because my numbers match the Zero datasheet when I use it. I used 29Ah in the example for clarity sake to not mix up with the 28S even though it is likely incorrect for any specific zero battery. People have charged Zero's well over 1C before. It should void the warranty. I'm not a battery expert and these amounts (Ah) may technically need to change as the battery ages and recalculates its own capacity (even new from the factory Zero may not use the Farasis laboratory cell data/spec for Zero's pack encapsulated in resin meaning we are all at too high of a rate). Also sorry I've forgotten all my significant figures rules with calculations.
Oh yeah, my bike reports itself as 104Ah since new, despite me calculating 112Ah for the 16SR:
See https://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8940.0
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Also, the Zero BMS might open the contactor while charging if you exceed 1C similar to how it opens the contactor if the battery temperature or voltage gets too high while charging. If this is the case, doing this with many amps flowing too many times can prematurely wear out even the best contactors due to DC arcing which of course would be worse at these higher currents.
For this reason they may elect not to open the contactor at high rates of charge and just log that it occurred; I've seen a max charging amperage variable stored somewhere in a Zero before.
I'm not too familiar with Zero's wiring. I've taken a couple apart quickly but completely forgotten now. I don't even remember if the controller connection goes through that contactor or not, or if it is just for charging/dc-dc power. I have many pictures somewhere but I am too disorganized and busy. Anyway trying to keep this relevant to this discussion, I personally connect directly to the motor controller's beefy terminals like many others to avoid that darn shrink-wrapped auxiliary charging fuse. There are reports that they blow easier than their spec due to added thermal insulation. I recommend getting only enough chargers capable of UNDER your 1C rate so you know you never exceed it.
I am trying to find that Sumitomo AC inlet in my Japanese Supply Bookmarks in my browser. I found it once a long time ago and I need another as well. BNM/Electric Cowboy should have it recorded somewhere if he feels like sharing. Beware, they have a very low mating-cycle life before they are too worn and heat up excessively. Use dielectric grease where applicable.
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Current Zero batteries will not handle 24kW for very long.
Where did I say it would? The fuse will be well above the expected normal max current rating.
-Don- Reno, NV
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"100 amps is 24KW at 240 VAC so you're unlikely to blow it". The main battery fuse in some of the bikes are 300+ DCAmps. The auxiliary/accessory charging fuses are ~100 Amps and thermally insulated so much that they will likely blow well under their rating (<85A) depending on model year.. you specifically suggested that a little over 1C should be fine... with the context being the auxiliary/accessory charging port. That is not a good idea as you are at, and even slightly above the limit at exactly 1C. Some bikes the OBC goes through the aux/acc as well. The only way I foresee to be 100% safe and within warranty would be to not surpass your bike's OBC+4kW deltaQ on that port. By the way, the Auxiliary charging port may be different from the Accessory charging port. One may be for the chargetank/powertank and be wired differently.
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I got my charger from ElCon this week, not part of the group buy, but just for clarification purposes:
The charger comes with a Sumitomo AC connector but it also includes a Sumitomo to NEMA 5-15P standard AC plug cable.
For the DC side, they provided a 4 foot long adapter from the Anderson Gray connector on the charger to the Brown one the Zero has by the motor for $25. Apparently these were sourced from Zero.
So it is pretty much plug and play.
The only issue I am having is I can not get it to charge without the OBC. The reason I bought it was to have an option if (when) the OBC dies.
So for now I am charging at 4.6 kW @ 220v plugged into my 10-30R dryer plug with a Parkworld 10-30P to NEMA 5-20R adapter and a NEMA 5-15 1-3 splitter to plug both the OBC and the ElCon into the 220 circuit.
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Try unplugging your OBC, the connector up against the back of the battery. Then it will still engage the charger contactor but no power going to the battery from OBC. The elcon will charge as long as nothing else is disconnected.
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The only issue I am having is I can not get it to charge without the OBC.
Contactor must be closed for it to accept a charge.
Two ways to solve that problem.
1. Leave the key in, turn the bike on to charge and leave the key on. Do not remove key until charging is completed.
Or . . .
2. Do this. (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.30)Then you can leave the key out while it is being charged.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Don,
Option 1 works, but what I and other people need to know is that the bike will charge that way, but the green charging LED will not turn on, but it will charge.
Thanks!
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If you charge without an enable signal present the BMS will not cell balance at the top end.
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If I'm charging without the OBC, if the ElCon stops at 95%, does it even get to the cell balancing stage? My Elcon is not CANBUS enabled. Thanks.
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If I'm charging without the OBC, if the ElCon stops at 95%, does it even get to the cell balancing stage? My Elcon is not CANBUS enabled. Thanks.
AFAIK, you will have to use the OBC to get to the completed cell balancing. But as I have said before, one thing that is more important than having the balancing done is to not be out of balance. Check the balance once in a while. If the cells are not way out of balance, do not worry about it.
It seems to me the entire thing in contradictory anyway. Many say to charge only to 80% or so, for better battery life, when the extra range is not needed. They also tell you to balance your cells you must let the charge complete to 100%. Also for better battery life. So which is best?
Perhaps the best way is to only charge to 100% when you notice your cells need balancing as shown on the Zero App.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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If I'm charging without the OBC, if the ElCon stops at 95%, does it even get to the cell balancing stage? My Elcon is not CANBUS enabled. Thanks.
I definitely wouldn't charge above 80% without an enable.
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So which is best?
There is no best. It is situational.
-Crissa
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You mind posting a pic of what you were sent? Or a link to an unboxing vid?
I got my charger from ElCon this week, not part of the group buy, but just for clarification purposes:
The charger comes with a Sumitomo AC connector but it also includes a Sumitomo to NEMA 5-15P standard AC plug cable.
For the DC side, they provided a 4 foot long adapter from the Anderson Gray connector on the charger to the Brown one the Zero has by the motor for $25. Apparently these were sourced from Zero.
So it is pretty much plug and play.
The only issue I am having is I can not get it to charge without the OBC. The reason I bought it was to have an option if (when) the OBC dies.
So for now I am charging at 4.6 kW @ 220v plugged into my 10-30R dryer plug with a Parkworld 10-30P to NEMA 5-20R adapter and a NEMA 5-15 1-3 splitter to plug both the OBC and the ElCon into the 220 circuit.
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I definitely wouldn't charge above 80% without an enable.
For what reasons? And is this enable on the OBD2 connector, and what type of signal is it looking for to enable? And what is it really doing?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Here is what arrived.
The DC adapter from the gray to the brown connector was an additional $25.
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Here is what arrived.
The DC adapter from the gray to the brown connector was an additional $25.
You can remove that mounting plate, if you're not going to use it. I removed both of mine.
That $25.00 was well spent. Otherwise, the output cable is way too short.
BTW, I made my own extensions, both using the smaller 50 amp Anderson connector on each end. As I wired mine in direct to the motor controller batt input lugs.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Yes I will probably remove the plate but It really needs some handles to make it easier to move it around. Maybe put some rubber feet in those bottom mounting holes after removing the plate to keep the bottom off the ground.
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I will probably end up doing something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE2PuYzGMhs
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I wound up going with a different way to carry my charger. I wanted to leave my trunk free, keep the weight closer to the frame, and be able to quickly add / remove it from the bike. So I picked up two RAP-400NBU (https://www.rammount.com/part/RAP-400NBU) clamps from RAM Mounts, drilled two holes in mounting plate, and bolted the clamps to the bottom with some thread locker. Takes about 15 seconds to add or remove it.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c2nkB6XVAHfYhNu89nyHB50YW_cpGUXNZ1n09V3MkDR9_GqnbmXtyEuzXsp5YP1lw-1M7YFm8Mp28IfzarC1redJaI3AkY-KF-pEB0i6d5dyjtutFLYlVEDKBFfp0C7U6G_VS3tR4Zh7sKFoEtx8qHWw=w1680-h1260-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e-IIv91VOHZWfjxqJobtkdbzBxlelvRkf2IvabD3zQx0O4WYiR-hl6_7JFRo5iv_geyeIl55eMyfkIurLYznAEeUvf1rwmn1JSN-I5Mj7XmNMrtAQdXo7nv9n7VmWlr-m1Ro4VzM0cXnBkH8oJFc0Hnw=w1420-h1892-no)
I still need to figure out a better way for the cables, because I just keep them in a bag in the trunk and connect them up at every charging stop. I'm considering a more permanent installation of them on the bike. I'm thinking the J-1772 might be able to be mounted (mostly) in the front right fairing. Still pondering solutions.
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I had a bicycle toolbox and tried it and it just fits. Will try a larger box to provide space for more accessories/adapters and possibly adding 12v fans.
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Any update on the first group buy?
I think the fair way would be to go in order of who originally responded to this thread.
I'll work with Sayyed and StableOfZeros to aquire more in June.
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The first group buy was a resounding success. Three out of three of us are now charging via ElCons. I just spoke with Sayyed today, and received some good and bad news. The exact units we ordered the first time are ok back order for at least two months. We may be able to get the previous iteration for about the same price but I am waiting to hear back from Sayyed about specifics.
I have lost running count of who would still like one or more, I will put together a google form and post it here so I know who would like one!
Link to google form: https://forms.gle/WgtL1QUor4wduEqa9
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What was the final plug configuration? IOW how does it end up hooking up and working?
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What was the final plug configuration? IOW how does it end up hooking up and working?
In reply number 60 here, it says:
"For the DC side, they provided a 4 foot long adapter From the Anderson Gray connector on the charger to the Brown one the Zero has by the motor for $25. Apparently these were sourced from Zero."
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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I bought a slightly larger toolbox at Home Depot and customized it by:
Adding a 12v LED fan connected to the 12v output in the CANBUS connector to help the stock Elcon Fan. The LED lets me know the charger is on if I can not hear the stock fan.
Second I bolted the charger to the bottom of the box so it does not move around.
Finally, I cut some slots to let the wires leaving the Elcon go straight out of the box without kinks.
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Correct, as Don quoted me, the charger comes with the following inputs:
AC - Elcon to a Sumitomo, then Sumitomo to a NEMA 5-15p plug.
DC - Elcon to Anderson "Gray", then Anderson "Gray" to Anderson "Brown" that plugs in to the brown connector above the motor. This last part is an extra $25.
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Where does the hot air exit the box?
-Crissa
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Where does the hot air exit the box?
-Crissa
The elcon fan blows down on the fins, hot air exits left/right, the blue fan blows out to help get hot air out of the box. I keep the lid open for now I might try closing the lid to see how it works.
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Well, that's a convection mess ^-^
But yes, adding the exhaust fan should keep the intake fan from drawing dead air.
-Crissa
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Well, that's a convection mess ^-^
But yes, adding the exhaust fan should keep the intake fan from drawing dead air.
-Crissa
Agreed but the Elcon fan blows down so the extra fan flow has to go with the flow if I flipped it to blow into the box the two flows would collide and go up which is worth trying with the lid open.
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Can Sayyed order one of the chargers as CAN-enabled for the next group buy?
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I’m sure we can ask them to, but it will probably be a while.
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Can Sayyed order one of the chargers as CAN-enabled for the next group buy?
I was asked if I wanted mine that way, I said no thanks. I prefer simple as possible. I couldn't care less if they shut off at ~95% SOC where the rate will drop a lot anyway, if that last 5% is even needed.
Why do you want yours controlled by CANBUS? IIRC, you will need some type of Interface. No doubt MV can explain that part to you.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Two reasons: I want to be able to control the charge rate so I can charge at the max speed from a single J-station using my 2.5 kW CT + 1.3 kW OBC + Elcon. If a station can only do 6.6 kW I need to dial back, but if it can handle 7.2 then I want to be able to take full advantage.
Also, I want to make sure I don’t exceed 1C when using 2 x Elcons, the OBC, and the CT all together from two J-plugs or a Tesla Destination Charger. I’ll be dancing very close to the 104A limit for my 13.0 battery and I would hate to spend the money and then find out that I miscalculated and won’t be able to charge at the full 10.x kW.
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Two reasons: I want to be able to control the charge rate so I can charge at the max speed from a single J-station using my 2.5 kW CT + 1.3 kW OBC + Elcon. If a station can only do 6.6 kW I need to dial back, but if it can handle 7.2 then I want to be able to take full advantage.
Also, I want to make sure I don’t exceed 1C when using 2 x Elcons, the OBC, and the CT all together from two J-plugs or a Tesla Destination Charger. I’ll be dancing very close to the 104A limit for my 13.0 battery and I would hate to spend the money and then find out that I miscalculated and won’t be able to charge at the full 10.x kW.
On my 2017SR, I adjust mine manually, see here, reply number 31. (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.30)
At home, I can charge up to ~12 KW, by adding in four DeltaQs, but that is too much stuff to bring for the road. 8KW I can live with on a road trip.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I could do that using the J-1772 -> 3 x 5-15R TusconEV adapter by just not plugging in the CT and get 7.9 kW, but I just can't accept 7.9 when I can have 10.4 with a little extra effort and investment. I've already been stuck charging once when it was late at night and I just wanted to get home. An extra 2.5 kW would have been much appreciated in a circumstance like that.
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Also, I want to make sure I don’t exceed 1C when using 2 x Elcons, the OBC, and the CT all together from two J-plugs or a Tesla Destination Charger. I’ll be dancing very close to the 104A limit for my 13.0 battery and I would hate to spend the money and then find out that I miscalculated and won’t be able to charge at the full 10.x kW.
Have you had any issue with the 16KW Tesla Destination stations shutting down in around ten minutes and turning red, needing a reset?
See my last two Zero check-in here (https://www.plugshare.com/location/146827), for an example. I am curious about what causes it. It is fine with other models of Tesla Destination stations, that are for lower power.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Not yet. I still need to acquire the second Elcon charger before it makes sense to buy a Tesla Tap.
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ot yet. I still need to acquire the second Elcon charger before it makes sense to buy a Tesla Tap.
Why is that? I don't see what one has to do with the other.
-Don- Reno, nV
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Now that you mention it, I guess it doesn't. :)
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Would anyone be nice enough to help me with the non canbus charger wiring? Apparently the unit I bought is non canbus but didn't come with the pigtail that connects the 4 pin connector to the green wire, and I'm not sure what wires to put together to turn the charger on.
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Would anyone be nice enough to help me with the non canbus charger wiring? Apparently the unit I bought is non canbus but didn't come with the pigtail that connects the 4 pin connector to the green wire, and I'm not sure what wires to put together to turn the charger on.
Follow up with them, let them know that wire was missing. I’m sure they will send one to you.
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Would anyone be nice enough to help me with the non canbus charger wiring? Apparently the unit I bought is non canbus but didn't come with the pigtail that connects the 4 pin connector to the green wire, and I'm not sure what wires to put together to turn the charger on.
Follow up with them, let them know that wire was missing. I’m sure they will send one to you.
I purchased off of eBay, I am in contact with Sayyed and he's the one who told me it's a non can model, I'm not sure how keen they are on selling me the pigtail though, but it seems it just connects some wires I just can't see which.
https://evwest.com/store/images/products/elcon-3-3kw-charger-uhf-pre-programmed-non-can-2.jpg
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Here is how I have mine hooked up to charge. The green wire is just the jumper.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLWvKaZn8-KlC-RSHXa6qlpOU8C8X0zgilEV2KzKf5UbWUvdVFhGXHfe9CD7qwh8rYHcUfQq_LbhdMswT3tNgRwPKcWO7XnqxzOwN7S3hSXriQjZGE34P5-nnRub-uiA6Wbmym2e3QzRGOiZ13tkwMF7eA=w1680-h1260-no?authuser=0)
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Here is how I have mine hooked up to charge. The green wire is just the jumper.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLWvKaZn8-KlC-RSHXa6qlpOU8C8X0zgilEV2KzKf5UbWUvdVFhGXHfe9CD7qwh8rYHcUfQq_LbhdMswT3tNgRwPKcWO7XnqxzOwN7S3hSXriQjZGE34P5-nnRub-uiA6Wbmym2e3QzRGOiZ13tkwMF7eA=w1680-h1260-no?authuser=0)
And awayyy we go! I think my charger may be limited to 10 amps (and the obc puts out about 5-6) but this is on 120v, I'll have to test it on 220v. Thanks for the help
Edit: on 220v I get double the power, so 20amps. Still not the full 3.3kw but I can't complain for ~$300.
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Would 2 of these be a good substitute for the no longer available diginow chargers?
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Would 2 of these be a good substitute for the no longer available diginow chargers?
I believe that's the point, yes.
-Crissa
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Would 2 of these be a good substitute for the no longer available diginow chargers?
I use two of the 3.3 KW Elcons on my SR. Those are the same units that DigiNow used. Mine are just a bit more simple and are only used to 95% SOC when the OBC takes over. No CANBUS connection of any type on mine. They are simply wired into the motor controller with 50 amp Anderson connectors I installed on the bike.
I charge my 2017 SR at almost 8KW when on the road. Even more at home by adding in some DeltaQs. But I carry the chargers externally in my sidebags. I only take them when I will need them. At home, I can charge as high as 12KW, but I normally only charge at 3KW at home. At any of my three houses, I am set up with two DeltaQs all ready, so I normally only use those unless I am in a hurry to recharge when home, which is almost never.
Similar configuration on my Zero DS, but I use the older 2.5KW Elcons with it, that are larger in size but less power. I charge my DS at around 6.3 KW. I do not exceed this on my DS even at home, since it has a 7.2 KWH (the unusable max) battery and I want to stay somewhat below 1C.
If you use two, they should be started close to the same time. Within a minute or so. I have never found that to be an issue, as I always start them both at the same time.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Would 2 of these be a good substitute for the no longer available diginow chargers?
I use two of the 3.3 KW Elcons on my SR. Those are the same units that DigiNow used. Mine are just a bit more simple and are only used to 95% SOC when the OBC takes over. No CANBUS connection of any type on mine. They are simply wired into the motor controller with 50 amp Anderson connectors I installed on the bike.
I charge my 2017 SR at almost 8KW when on the road. Even more at home by adding in some DeltaQs. But I carry the chargers externally in my sidebags. I only take them when I will need them. At home, I can charge as high as 12KW, but I normally only charge at 3KW at home. At any of my three houses, I am set up with two DeltaQs all ready, so I normally only use those unless I am in a hurry to recharge when home, which is almost never.
Similar configuration on my Zero DS, but I use the older 2.5KW Elcons with it, that are larger in size but less power. I charge my DS at around 6.3 KW. I do not exceed this on my DS even at home, since it has a 7.2 KWH (the unusable max) battery and I want to stay somewhat below 1C.
If you use two, they should be started close to the same time. Within a minute or so. I have never found that to be an issue, as I always start them both at the same time.
-Don- Reno, NV
how are you getting 8 kwh? Do you have a third charger? How do you go about wiring something like that? It requires 2 j1772 plugs, doesn't it?
Would it be better to get TC chargers now, or if I can find diginows would those be the better option? (considering they aren't made or supported anymore)
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Two ElCons would get the 6.6kW into the bike, and he has 2 delta Qs at about 1kW each plugged into another circuit. That’s if he has a standard EVSE as most are 7ish kW max output. An at home Tesla charger with a 100A circuit could be used to power all of the chargers at once with a particular adapter and splitter combo.
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how are you getting 8 kwh? Do you have a third charger? How do you go about wiring something like that? It requires 2 j1772 plugs, doesn't it?
Would it be better to get TC chargers now, or if I can find diginows would those be the better option? (considering they aren't made or supported anymore)
On my SR, I use two 3.3 KW Elcons plus the OBC that is around 1.3KW. So 3.3+3.3+1.3=7.9 KW.
For my DS, I use two larger, heavier but less powerful (older design) 2.5 KW units. 2.5+2.5+1.3=6.3KW.
I wired my external chargers direct to the battery contacts of the motor controller.
I only take the Elcons for longer trips where I will need a charge.
Sometimes it requires two J-plugs for 8KW, but often not. There are several high power J-stations around these days. But most of the ChargePoint stations can only handle 6.3 KW per side, so then I hog up both.
I can adjust my power manually as I can overload SOME J-stations since I do not use the pilot signal. See here (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.30)and read the several messages after it.
BTW, I think it's kinda neat that I can charge my Zero SR at a higher rate than most cars can accept on an AC charge. I have deliberately overloaded a Chargepoint once just to see what will happen. It shutdown and reset by itself in about 30 seconds and sent me an e-mail that I am drawing excessive power which made the station shut down.
"Dear Donald,The station at which your vehicle is charging, DC CORRIDOR / COLFAX D&D L2, has detected that your Vehicle is drawing more current than the station's rating, and has suspended charging to prevent the circuit breaker from tripping. This typically indicates an issue with configuration of the vehicle or an issue with the battery management system on the vehicle. Please contact the manufacturer of the vehicle if you receive this notification again.Team ChargePoint"
I enjoyed getting that message! :)
-Don- Reno, NV
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Hi,
I am about to buy Elcon charger straight from Elcon.
Now, I can see this tread on the forum and I am wondering if I can buy it together with you guys.
Let me know if it's not too late, please.
I am from Tampa, FL.
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We have already completed the first group buy purchase. Not sure if they’re back in stock at ElCon, I have not checked in with Sayyed in some time.
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I've got email from Sayyed.
He said they have few of them.
Any advise before I will place the order?
My onboard charger is dying slowly. Now is charging for few sec, turning off and repeats the cycle.
I would like to connect Elcon to the 240V and charge thru Anderson port.
Can I do that without onboard charger?
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I would like to connect Elcon to the 240V and charge thru Anderson port.
Can I do that without onboard charger?
Yes, but you'll need the bike keyed on in order to close the contactor, or the enable hack defined here: https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.msg100911#msg100911