ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Kappi on May 02, 2021, 02:06:05 PM
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Hey everybody, I was just wondering how many of us are on their first, second or perhaps third battery?
I am on my second.
If so, what was your reason / symptoms for the replacement?
Please feel free to comment.
Greetings
Kappi
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My bike is supposedly on its first.
-Crissa
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They think the 13's BMS was bad and caused all the 13s to have a replacement recall.
The bike in my profile picture may have been the first to show the problem. It got replaced at about 10k miles. It has over 30k on the 2014 replacement battery.
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Great topic! I would be interested in knowing what models and what years had the most problems.
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I have owned three Zeros. A 2012, a 2014 and my current 2018. None have needed to have their batteries replaced and if any of those bikes had battery packs that had degraded I never noticed it. The on-board chargers though, are another issue. :(
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My 2017 modular FXS has one dead battery. Almost 3 weeks now at the dealer in Tampa and they haven't even looked at it yet. I've contacted Zero and even sent them the logs but still nothing.
EDIT: Turns out the BMS of one battery was bad. It was replaced by the dealer under warranty after communications with Zero. It did take about 7 weeks for the work to finally be done. Part of which was due to the dealer telling me to bring it in right away saying they might get to it between other jobs but rather they took 3 weeks to finally look at it, and only after I contacted Zero directly to ask for assistance.
So no battery replacement but a BMS replacement which caused the battery not to operate.
At 12k miles and 4 years old, my batteries are at about 90% capacity.
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My 2017 modular FXS has one dead battery. Almost 3 weeks now at the dealer in Tampa and they haven't even looked at it yet. I've contacted Zero and even sent them the logs but still nothing.
Kind of off topic here, but if you want help Zero can easily be called during West Coast business hours, Once called, they usually can lean on the dealer to do stuff. Sending the logs without an additional email or call doesn't usually produce much response.
Sucks that your dealer hasn't looked at it.
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I presently own 3 Zeros
My 2013 FX 5.7 is on it's original batteries. They are hurting, but, while lower range than I used to get, better than some posts on here.
My Modified 2014 S was purchased with a toasted battery, so, I have no idea of it's previous life. It now has a 14.4 KW Battery
that was installed by Hollywood Electrics in 2019.
My 2016 SR is also on it's original battery, no degradation that I am aware of.
The 2013 was always kept plugged in as per Zero's instructions at the time. After they dropped that requirement, it now gets
charged to between 60% and 80%. This is the same for both of my other bikes. I seldom charge to 100% except for when
I do it for cell balancing. Even then, As soon as it completed, I ride it enough to bring the SOC down below 80%
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I've got a SR/F (bought in Nov 2019)
It's had one battery replacement.
However, I don't think the the battery was originally at fault and I suspect it was more collateral damage when my spiderbus/BMS developed some faults and needed replacing.
See the lovely saga here (it's Hans' original post but I had the same issue so piggybacked on his thread :D)
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9668.msg93283#msg93283 (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9668.msg93283#msg93283)
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are you sure it wasn't the 12V battery they replaced? I had those insulation errors also and they replaced my 12V battery back then. That error should prevent the contactor to engage so it shouldn't damage the battery pack.
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Original 11.4 Battery replaced with a 14.4 after a bad firmware upgrade set off a chain reaction of component failures which eventually ended up with the bike being shipped from VA to CA for a battery replacement and back, under warranty with only days to spare.
Thanks, Zero!
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Hey everybody, I was just wondering how many of us are on their first, second or perhaps third battery?
I am on my second.
If so, what was your reason / symptoms for the replacement?
Please feel free to comment.
Greetings
Kappi
My Zero DS 6.5 battery crapped out during warranty after around three years. Was good news. It now has a 7.2 KWH battery at no cost to me.
It acted much like a 2.5 KWH battery. Would charge more than twice as fast to full with less than half the normal range. Regen seemed to charge better than ever, because it had less battery to charge at the same charging power. So on an unpaved road going slow, the bad battery made little difference. At freeway speeds the drain was so fast that it was a very obvious problem.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Now on the third block. It's great when a manufacturer honors their warranty and the dealer does their best with great support to solve the issue.
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Now on the third block. It's great when a manufacturer honors their warranty and the dealer does their best with great support to solve the issue.
Wow :o
What are you doing, that results in (3) Battery Replacements?
Does any of this apply to you?
https://pushevs.com/2018/04/27/battery-charging-full-versus-partial/ (https://pushevs.com/2018/04/27/battery-charging-full-versus-partial/)
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First battery failed after about 5000 miles (massively dropping range at speed), second battery hat runaway cell balance after about 1000 miles. Charging would increase imbalance and discharging as well. I don't know what the issue was.
And regarding battery care, I follow the common recommendations with SOC, storage, balancing charges and such.
I would NOT take my case as an indicator for battery quality. Usually, they last with no issues. I just got an unlucky replacement block the first time around.
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Does any of this apply to you?
https://pushevs.com/2018/04/27/battery-charging-full-versus-partial/ (https://pushevs.com/2018/04/27/battery-charging-full-versus-partial/)
"Summing up, if you really want to take care of your battery try to limit charging to 70-80 % of its capacity, even if it means that sometimes you’ll need to discharge it almost till empty. "
I wonder why Energica says on the screen do not stop the charging and let it charge to full when it gets to around that 80%. Which is worse for the battery, not letting it balance the cells or a charge to full?
Don- Reno, NV
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"Summing up, if you really want to take care of your battery try to limit charging to 70-80 % of its capacity, even if it means that sometimes you’ll need to discharge it almost till empty. "
I wonder why Energica says on the screen do not stop the charging and let it charge to full when it gets to around that 80%. Which is worse for the battery, not letting it balance the cells or a charge to full?
Don- Reno, NV
Yea, it's a really interesting article.
I was shocked by that chart
(https://pushevs.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2018/04/Test-of-Samsung-ICR18650-26F-battery-cell-by-BMZ-2-2.jpg)
80%-20% Providing 3,500 Cycles Lifespan
vs
70%-0% Providing 5,000 Cycles Lifespan
My guess, on the Energica, is that at 80% it must begin Cell Balancing, and therefore prompts you not to interrupt the process.
Although, I would suspect staying below 80% (as much as possible) would extend battery life, by the magnitudes shown in the article.
Another suspicion is that, above 80%, Cell Balancing is introduced for protection (where below 80% it's less of a concern)?
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80%-20% Providing 3,500 Cycles Lifespan
vs
70%-0% Providing 5,000 Cycles Lifespan
My guess, on the Energica, is that at 80% it must begin Cell Balancing, and therefore prompts you not to interrupt the process.
Although, I would suspect staying below 80% (as much as possible) would extend battery life, by the magnitudes shown in the article.
Another suspicion is that, above 80%, Cell Balancing is introduced for protction (where below 80% it's less of a concern)?
Well, if that is true, the display should say "disconnect before 80% to extend battery life". But it says the opposite right on the screen, as soon as it hits around 80% SOC.
BTW, I often charge to 100%. When this battery craps out, I will probably buy another Energica, with a much larger battery than my 2020. And perhaps it will have other features I want, such as a center stand, full fairing and a 6KW AC charger.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Hey,
I did a pretty deep dive into battery aging in regards to SoC.
There's the thread that I created, including the papers I used and the conclusions:
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10731.0
:)
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Is there any way to test battery degradation other than by range loss?
I'm trying to figure out why my 2015 DS12.5 at 25% SOC can only do 60mph. My battery warranty expires in a few months, and I'm 1200 miles away from a dealer.
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The only way to test battery health totally is to run it through a cycle. You don't have to go anywhere, but the power has to be consumed and measured at a set temperature.
You can also measure voltage when the pack stops absorbing power, and individual cell ranges, but exercising the battery and temperature can change those.
-Crissa
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The only way to test battery health totally is to run it through a cycle. You don't have to go anywhere, but the power has to be consumed and measured at a set temperature.
You can also measure voltage when the pack stops absorbing power, and individual cell ranges, but exercising the battery and temperature can change those.
-Crissa
When I had my battery replaced in my DS, all the dealer did was to send the logs to Zero and Zero replied for them to change the battery under warranty.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Zero SR/F 2019
After 20'000 km after winter storage at the dealer the BMS broke.
It took Zero too long to deliver the new BMS. After replacing it after several weeks they discovered, that, due to the broken BMS, the battery had depleted completely and things went south ... battery was useless ...
So I'm on my second battery.
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1000 km and counting on my new battery. Balance is good, range is good, life is good. Happy battery = happy bike = happy rider.
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Finally able to connect to my bike using ZeroSpy app. 8)
At 100% SOC I'm at 116.2v, and 2mv cell imbalance, seems fine, so... is it normal to have such a limited top speed at lower SOC? (60mph at 25%)
Trying to see if it's worth investigating further, looking for terminal corrosion. Not sure what else to try.
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Finally able to connect to my bike using ZeroSpy app. 8)
At 100% SOC I'm at 116.2v, and 2mv cell imbalance, seems fine, so... is it normal to have such a limited top speed at lower SOC? (60mph at 25%)
Trying to see if it's worth investigating further, looking for terminal corrosion. Not sure what else to try.
Nope. You shouldn't even notice any difference at 25% SOC.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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is it normal to have such a limited top speed at lower SOC? (60mph at 25%)
Nope. You shouldn't even notice any difference at 25% SOC.
It can vary a bit, but are you accidentally going into Eco?
When it was 40F and my battery is below 35% I can be limited to 65mph easy.
-Crissa
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is it normal to have such a limited top speed at lower SOC? (60mph at 25%)
Nope. You shouldn't even notice any difference at 25% SOC.
It can vary a bit, but are you accidentally going into Eco?
When it was 40F and my battery is below 35% I can be limited to 65mph easy.
-Crissa
Isn't the BMS hard-wired to reduce max power in increments, starting at 52% SOC in any case?
So, a noticable reduction in top speed at 25 SOC seems plausible.
Eddiebee, if you have the logs from that ride, check the corresponding time stamp. On that timestamp, look for cell balance values.
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I don't know that it has to be hard-wired; the voltage is lower as the batteries empty. So your available power is lower.
-Crissa
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My 2014 SR is on it's second battery and it was replaced with 40,000 miles on the bike. I originally had a ZF12.5 pack and a 2.8 power tank. I like you, showed severe reduction of power around 30%, with the bike barely crawling at 10%. I worked with the dealer and Zero had them fully charge the bike, then I drive until the contactors opened and the bike stopped, then tow it to the dealer and have them pull the logs.
They originally denied the request because all they look at is the number of miles the bike went and it was within the expected/published range. I called engineering and politely explained that the distance traveled before empty was really on city backroads doing 30ish mph, whereas they were thinking I was on the highway. They then approved the replacement but only the monolith, not the powertank. I tried explaining to them that it's not a good idea to mix batteries chemistries and ages but they wouldn't replace the powertank. This later caused a bunch of no start issues where the new ZF14.4 monolith was not talking to the MBB because of some CAN bus issues.
They apparently wrote some new software and pushed it to the bike to account for this so if you replace yours, it should be a much simpler issue. Apparently there was a change in communication architecture after 2014 that the 2018 14.4 battery wasn't compatible with.
The best way for you to know how much the bike holds is to run it till the contactors open, then plug the charger into a Kill-A-Watt meter and measure the actual amount of energy it took to charge the bike. Multiply the number you get by about 0.92 to account for charger inefficiency. You'll need to then compare this number to the amount of energy the battery is supposed to hold according to the unofficial manual. A 12.5 pack DOES NOT hold 12.5kwh, it's something less like 11.4ish.
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Finally able to connect to my bike using ZeroSpy app. 8)
At 100% SOC I'm at 116.2v, and 2mv cell imbalance, seems fine, so... is it normal to have such a limited top speed at lower SOC? (60mph at 25%)
Trying to see if it's worth investigating further, looking for terminal corrosion. Not sure what else to try.
Also, on your bike, pull the BMS logs and upload them to the zero log parser https://home.hasslers.net/zerologparser/log_parser.php The comment you are looking for is something something, battery SOC %, discharge cutback % limited to XXX amps. The below is a log from the BMS_0 on my bike before I had the battery changed and it would start to derate all the way up at 75% SOC.
09/24/2018 09:01:09 Discharge level 095 AH, SOC: 32%, I: 77A, L:3500, l:3567, H:3509, B:009, PT:035C, BT:038C, PV: 98167, M:Bike On
09/24/2018 09:01:09 SOC:96860,142417,95025,114800,18,34,32,131
09/24/2018 09:01:09 Discharge cutback 67%
09/24/2018 09:01:10 580A <<<This is what you are looking for
I want to say that anything less than 650amps is noticable and you will only notice this reduction initially above 62mph, as this is where the motor output is at its max. Any speed less than this and you may not notice the reduction because the motor isn't pulling more power than what the battery can supply. After swapping out the battery, I can get a full 62.5kw all the way down to about 15% SOC. The old 12.5kW packs had a much higher internal resistance and honestly suck compare to the newer chemistries by Farasis.
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I purposely didn't charge my bike in order to take measurements, and ended up surprised to find the bike died at 17%, leaving me stranded on the side of the road for the first time in 10 years of owning Zero's. :o
At 20% the bike really started limping, and got slower and slower over the next few miles until at 17% the contactor opened and the SOC dropped to 0%.
Unfortunately haven't been able to download any logs because the Zero app won't connect, but ZeroSpy told me:
0% SOC, Pack voltage 91.2, Cell voltage 3174/3313
Is this indicative of a bad battery? Sorry for the lack of data, I've ordered a Kill-A-Watt and will take mileage next time. Also looking to purchase an OBD/MBB cable or wireless dongle, but they're currently not available on ecmcables.com.
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SoC is an artificial function which is sometimes incorrect. The voltage of a battery is not a simple curve by which to tell how much power remains in the battery; it's a function of voltage and amperage, and there's no way to measure amperage without using the electrons, whereas voltage potential is fairly simple.
Each battery will develop different voltage sag (drop in voltage) based upon the current load (amperage) which will also vary by temperature and state of charge.
So the system tries to estimate, and sometimes it's just wrong. Doing cell-balancing and draw-downs by riding it will teach it to get its estimate right again (if the battery is okay) or it will reveal more problems (which will be in the logs).
-Crissa
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I purposely didn't charge my bike in order to take measurements, and ended up surprised to find the bike died at 17%, leaving me stranded on the side of the road for the first time in 10 years of owning Zero's. :o
At 20% the bike really started limping, and got slower and slower over the next few miles until at 17% the contactor opened and the SOC dropped to 0%.
Unfortunately haven't been able to download any logs because the Zero app won't connect, but ZeroSpy told me:
0% SOC, Pack voltage 91.2, Cell voltage 3174/3313
Is this indicative of a bad battery? Sorry for the lack of data, I've ordered a Kill-A-Watt and will take mileage next time. Also looking to purchase an OBD/MBB cable or wireless dongle, but they're currently not available on ecmcables.com.
Perhaps it will self calibrate the SOC if you charge to 100% SOC right after you drain it down to nothing, as do many laptop computers, as well as my Energica and other items that use SOC and lith rechargeable batteries. Too much recharging in the mid range can cause the SOC to un-calibrate. I do not know if this holds true with Zeros, but I think it probably does and it also explains why two different bikes with the same year, model and FW updates will have much different SOC indications on the same ride.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Just past 32'000 km I had my battery pack replaced last week. Strangely enough, after showing a number of battery problem symptoms appearing just past 30K (no charging, red battery lights, phantom charging, range estimates jumping high and low, intermittent regen), during the two weeks preceding the appointment to swap the battery it quieted down and all went kind of ok. It seems as if it sort of healed itself. The only remaining problem was the 220 km of city range. Now with the new battery and in the same conditions I am getting at least 300 km on a first ride.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/x8q_hxrmx9o8BXIRaUpUDITaGkYBVvp-by-1FLCjoHILCpIdG-WtCxRiNpx-9DvvOVqInRGUuJ7s7P6vubDgrs2eeC6UrlW7undS74Brfty05V64ZRV4L0Fl8ToGnF4gRgkNgTA3tX3A3qld1jdAE1UwZYZWeJNysR8wCom3UdUPAHEuOs7h2r2kPeKSTyyFnvbVcGsbapZNOi0iHGPdQMz3UWDLfX-2Djna2WvqwfwUPhFgUWnHjnHlfPdP1LX-b5ZdOON6Ds0bXI2LkQC-l8BFUfMK8iVDR1v9ErZwIewTuUq9_c_4jWJYS-fHBIs68Oc6Ig-C0Ilk5nqvr7hE_YaOxG88yrZI6DHySFnA96RP6favJJFKGwlmgPmzT0Ct4Ab42aDTRjsOpCthA88KhX82zC9gECqDUZkIyKl24WzTMXLs1GdmANwRCbcnsBK8b-6qtQ9gPjFC1XgsQphV72UyqxR6H8FU-fGCzXTPuf-yuE71dgAXIDJCKRQgf7C3CD2DVKTh0SMdkiOk5mvjs1z6UMx5u511F0sP3cq1HK1b_fx2MhYbqr9Cni4gqnDQZ1Us6pAF8few-pnwwpdOMcC9GFTMH1CygX1_Hb2WWVc9YL1hTT4-W6cNuJnj4F8dw8oiG5_giKovBMUPZka3WOJDYend7FBB0weqK_-LdP8OC3_vCl1TnZBh_J9BJoL9fosQcarE_dEsbGApFqvc1kNY2A=w942-h639-no?authuser=0)
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I purposely didn't charge my bike in order to take measurements, and ended up surprised to find the bike died at 17%, leaving me stranded on the side of the road for the first time in 10 years of owning Zero's. :o
At 20% the bike really started limping, and got slower and slower over the next few miles until at 17% the contactor opened and the SOC dropped to 0%.
Sounds similar to the symptoms I experienced on my 2015 DS after around 30,000 miles - obvious range reduction and early limp mode. They replaced the battery under warranty with a 13 kWh. During the time I had the new battery Zero came out with their new charging recommendations. Prior to that I was following their recommendation to always keep it plugged-in (except for long storage).
Even with following the new recommendations the 13 kWh needed replacing (still under warranty, but just barely) at 49,000 miles. Then I was upgraded to the 14.4 kWh battery. I'm now at 57,000 miles with no issues. So only 8,000 miles on the 14.4 battery so far. I've been pretty careful with not charging it over 80%.
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My 2014 S 11.4 kW-hr original battery made it to ~45k miles at which point it was exhibiting the various ills reported by others. After confirmation of battery degradation by testing at a dealer, Zero replaced the battery under warranty. The replacement 14.4 kW-hr battery has only about 5k miles at this point, no issues observed (though the battery replacement process had some initial issues). My commuting use sees 40 miles per day, discharging to as low as 65% then L1 recharging at work to 100%. In effect, the battery is garaged for most hours of a day at 83% to 84%, with fairly brief excursions to 100% and <70%. Temperature conditions are mild, being garaged in the SF bay area, and use is effectively year round so no long term storage considerations.
Overall, I definitely had planned my purchase based on a longer operating life for the battery, but Zero did make it good with a replacement under warranty so at this point I'm fairly confident that I'll attain the cost-effectiveness that I planned on.
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I just had mine replaced. 2020 SRS with 10000km.
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Does seem to be a bit hit and miss with the longevity. TBH I wouldn't have bought one without the warranty. The thing I worry about most though are the chargers, MBB and BMS stuff going pop instead, as there's only 2 years on those (1 on mine, being an ex demo...)
Cas :)
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Just keeping the thread alive but, I am in process for a battery replacement on my 2020 Zero FXS.
Mileage: 12,500 ish
Some track use, offroading, stunting, but majority commuting
Never charged above 0.5C or 3.3kw
My Background:
EE student, Navy Nuclear Electronics Tech, huge electronics nerd
Used to build Hotrod skateboard, Ebikes, E-Motos back when Lukeliveforphysics had shocked endless sphere with his Deathbike
FPV drone builder and racer
General Tinkerer.
Ive played with almost all chemistries of Lithium batteries at some point.
While reading symptoms please understand I've commuted on this bike to the same place of work for 2.5 years more than 280 days a each year.
The first 8,000 miles were virtually symptom-less. No noticeable range or power loss. Performed my 20 mile daily round trip flawless.
Symptoms:
-Bike struggled to maintain 60mph at 65% or lower SOC at ambient temperatures lower than 70F
-Excessive battery sag - after 7 miles at 65 mph average, indicated SOC would drop from 65% to 10% but bounce back to 35-40% after sitting.
-Battery off charger would go from 100% to 97-98% after turning bike on.
-Battery would not regen at 98%-99%.(used to get back to 100% on the hill before my first stop light in eco mode)
-Noticeable loss in range, would estimate from experience 30 miles highway, maybe 70 city vs 45-50 miles highway 100+ city i got the first 8k miles
-Power meter capped at three bars on highway (sometimes flashing full bars every .5 to 1secs like the battery was dying)
Troubleshooting before dealer:
====================Took time to keep battery warm before riding to work at night (I work night shift sometimes)============
- helped minimize battery sag (still had 10%ish bounceback)
- range was still noticeably lower
- maintained 65mph barely
====================Tried riding during day with warmer weather (80F) ===========
- no trouble maintaining highway speeds
- battery sag reduced further
- range still reduced
====================Pulling Logs===================
- Discharge cutback occuring at SOC 75% and lower
- Pack temps are high enough to disregard ambient temps (I live in San diego CA anyway, its never that cold)
->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pack Voltage dropping as low as 84 volts at 50-70% SOC<<<<<<<<<<<
- After my daily merge to the highway Battery Voltage would drop 10-15 volts!!!!!!
- Entire time I suspected something was wrong (3 mos) I would check cell balance via app or zero spy, and nothing was excessive)
=================Dealing with Zero Motorcycles Inc.===========================
-Knowing that the pack probably had a weak cell with excessive IR, and the BMS was limiting the pack to the weakest cell, I took it to the dealer and explained exactly "My bike struggles to maintain 60 mph on the highway, I think there is a battery issue"
- 4 business days later, Dealer calls me and tells me "Zero pulled the logs and said the battery is aging healthily, your bike is ready for pickup, please let us know if you have further issues".....lol ok
- I ride to work the next day, same issue.
- Called the dealer, after printing and outlining the battery issues to provide to Zero, a few days later I receive a call that I will be getting another battery under warranty.
TLDR;
I don't like or trust Zero for after purchase consumer friendliness, I know for a fact that Zero wouldn't have honored the warranty if I hadn't done the digging and work for them. I also know that the majority of people interested in the Electric Motorcycle market dont know how to pull the logs using the Parser online, nor would they think to.
I have no doubt in my mind that in future updates and motorcycles, that Zero will soon make it impossible for end users to pull and see the logs via encryption or updated libraries. It took me less than 20 mins and 1 beer to see that the voltage was dropping excessively, and I am no genius. Ultimately, I am receiving a replacement battery, the question is, how long would it take the average consumer to do so having no access to the logs? 2 visits to the dealer? 3 or 4? God forbid you have a motor issue....
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Does seem to be a bit hit and miss with the longevity. TBH I wouldn't have bought one without the warranty. The thing I worry about most though are the chargers, MBB and BMS stuff going pop instead, as there's only 2 years on those (1 on mine, being an ex demo...)
Cas :)
Actually, the MBB went kaput on my 2 and a half year old SR/F and Zero replaced it without any resistance or I having to bend arms or do anything.
True, the bike had barely 2500 miles on it but the purchase date was well beyond 2 years. And it was a dealer-demo too.
The machine has been very stable since the replacement (about a month ago) and everything is working as it should as far as I can tell.