ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Craig on April 29, 2021, 08:29:22 PM
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Demo bike laws. I have questions and can’t figure out where to ask about the legality of demo bike rules.
Does it say on the title that it was sold as a demo ?
I recently bought a new 2020 SR/S. It was sold as a demo but it was never ridden. It had 1 mile on the odometer. They cut the warranty from 2/5 to 1/4 years.
I paid in full for the motorcycle and just received the title. It states it was sold as new with one mile on the odo. I didn’t get anything in writing about my warranty.
I inquired with Zero and they said this is correct.
Who do I contact to find out the legality of this situation??? I’m in the USA. Are the laws the same in every state?
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Nothing in writing? Didn't you read your owner's manual?
Reference https://is.gd/Tg6yoX
Pages 9.1 through 9.8. Information regarding demonstrators is on Page 9.3:
B. WHAT IS THE COVERAGE PERIOD FOR DEMONSTRATORS?
The duration of this Limited Warranty for demonstrator 2020 Zero Motorcycles, not including the Power Packs, is a period of two (2) years and 90 days from the original “shipment date.”Note: The “shipment date” is the date that Zero ships the demonstrator 2020 Zero Motorcycle to the authorized dealer.The duration of this Limited Warranty for the Power Packs (not including the Power Pack’s outer case) is:
Five (5) years and 90 days from the “shipment date” for the Z-Force® ZF14.4 Power Packs on the 2020 Zero SR/S Motorcycle.
Five (5) years and 90 days from the “shipment date” of the host 2020 Zero SR/S Motorcycle for the Z-Force® Power Tank accessory. If purchased after the host Power Pack warranty has expired, the Power Tank will receive the standard parts warranty of one (1) year from date of purchase.
The Power Pack’s outer case is not covered under the Power Pack Limited Warranty duration terms above. Instead, the Power Pack’s outer case is covered for a period of two (2) years and 90 days from its “shipment date."
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This comes up from time to time. Perhaps using key words and search you might see similar.
I would write a letter to consumer protection in your state.
Apparently it is up to the consumer to contact Zero with the serial number to verify? Zero is probably a minor % of a dealership's sales,
I think the business model is to make the bike as specified and shipped billed singly.
I have commented in similar threads. I went for a test ride and the bikes were trucked in. The demo fleet and the demo for warranty may not correlate.
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Nothing in writing? Didn't you read your owners manual ?
This is exactly what I expected from a forum 👍
Yes I read that in the owners manual.
I’m talking about pertaining to my motorcycle. If they have it documented somewhere that it’s a demo shouldn’t it say that in my paperwork???
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So the long and short of it is, if it was on the dealer's floor it's a demo. That's in the manual.
It won't matter if someone rode it or not. They "could" have used it so it's a demo.
To get the full 2/5 warranty you have to "order" a new bike from the dealer.
Now you know.
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The dealership didn’t explain that. They did say all the bikes were demo’s.
It all seems very shiesty to me.
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You can find the original delivery date to the dealership, by asking the dealership or working with Zero.
From that point, you have 90 days + 2 years "bumper to bumper" and 5 years + 90 days on battery. This should have been made clear to you when you purchased it.
When I purchased my demo from my dealer here in Ohio, I was told this via email before buying (since I asked)
Q: What is the ship date for warranty purposes?
A: I have that shown on the Bill of Sale. Ship date - 7/14/2020.
So for me, my warranty is 2/5 years from 10/14/2020. Simple enough.
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So the long and short of it is, if it was on the dealer's floor it's a demo. That's in the manual.
It won't matter if someone rode it or not. They "could" have used it so it's a demo.
To get the full 2/5 warranty you have to "order" a new bike from the dealer.
Now you know.
I remember when they didn't do the whole demo bike thing. You could buy a bike as a dealer, sit on it for as long as you wanted, ride it however much you wanted, and then sell it with full warranty. I heard about one dealer selling a 2014 in 2019 with full warranty and 5000 miles on it.
I can imagine why Zero didn't like dealers who did that ;D
Yes, dealers are required to let owners know the terms of the warranty/status of the bike. Usually its listed in the contract. If they didn't, its on them, and you probably have a case. We order bikes as demos or non-demos from Zero, so from their perspective they're in the clear.
As others have mentioned, Zero can provide all that info if you ask.
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Yeah, my bike sat at the dealer for years, apparently, and was only sold when they closed the location.
-Crissa
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As far as I'm aware, only Zero does this. With every other manufacturer with which I'm familiar, the warranty on a demo bike begins the day the titled owner takes the bike home, not the day the dealer receives the bike. I remember when I first saw that stipulation in the owners manual of my 2016 Zero and I was SO glad I decided to by my bike new instead of buying the dealer demonstrator. (a 2015 SR). By the way, that SR was still on the floor when I was last there so the poor sucker who buys that will discover he has NO warranty of any kind whatsoever...
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Any vehicle used for hire would have a limited warranty. That part is pretty normal.
-Crissa
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So the long and short of it is, if it was on the dealer's floor it's a demo. That's in the manual.
It won't matter if someone rode it or not. They "could" have used it so it's a demo.
To get the full 2/5 warranty you have to "order" a new bike from the dealer.
Now you know.
I remember when they didn't do the whole demo bike thing. You could buy a bike as a dealer, sit on it for as long as you wanted, ride it however much you wanted, and then sell it with full warranty. I heard about one dealer selling a 2014 in 2019 with full warranty and 5000 miles on it.
I can imagine why Zero didn't like dealers who did that ;D
Yes, dealers are required to let owners know the terms of the warranty/status of the bike. Usually its listed in the contract. If they didn't, its on them, and you probably have a case. We order bikes as demos or non-demos from Zero, so from their perspective they're in the clear.
As others have mentioned, Zero can provide all that info if you ask.
Yep that is why it changed. There is always someone who ruins it for everybody.
Craig if you got that 2020 SRS recently then you paid a lot less than MSRP. That is the deal you have to pay full MSRP on an order to get the full warranty.
The good news is you likely saved more money than you would need to spend on most any out of warranty repairs.
IOW your still ahead.
EDIT:
I thought I remembered this issue.
Craig you posted this back in March:
I could not pass it up. I bought a new leftover 2020 Zero SR/S regular model. I had to go for a cut warranty. $4000 off list price. I don’t really understand why they have to cut the warranty on a brand new bike. They call it a demo but it has four miles on it. I’m not complaining. I think I got a great deal.
End quote.
Why are you now claiming the dealer didn't tell you?
Not too cool man. We take our time to help people enjoy these bikes and answer lots of questions for nothing.
You got a great deal, enjoy the bike, but please drop this issue.
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The bike I purchased was a great deal. It was not advertised as a demo. It was advertised ‘On Sale’. I didn’t speak to the dealership about it till I was there in person. They waited till the last minute to spring the cut warranty on me. Yes they explained everything to me then and when I picked up the bike. I have put 1570 miles on it in the last six weeks and the motorcycle has been flawless.
I didn’t get anything in writing about MY warranty. I didn’t get a Zip drive owners manual. I paid in full and my title says it was sold as new with one mile on the odometer.
I called the DCP today and they steered me to the DMV. They said I should fill out a K-35 form and send my documentation with it and they will look into my situation.
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NEW2elec.
Where did I say the dealership didn’t tell me ?
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The dealership didn’t explain that. They did say all the bikes were demo’s.
It all seems very shiesty to me.
Right there where you said the dealer didn't explain it to you.The bike I purchased was a great deal. It was not advertised as a demo. It was advertised ‘On Sale’. I didn’t speak to the dealership about it till I was there in person. They waited till the last minute to spring the cut warranty on me. Yes they explained everything to me then and when I picked up the bike. I have put 1570 miles on it in the last six weeks and the motorcycle has been flawless.
I didn’t get anything in writing about MY warranty. I didn’t get a Zip drive owners manual. I paid in full and my title says it was sold as new with one mile on the odometer.
I called the DCP today and they steered me to the DMV. They said I should fill out a K-35 form and send my documentation with it and they will look into my situation.
In here you say they did explain everything to you before you sealed the deal.
You got a good deal, enjoy the bike.
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I was responding to your comment about showroom bike and ordering a new one just for you.
They didn’t explain THAT to me. ;)
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The old post I quoted from you showed you knew the warranty was less when you bought the bike and you were still happy because you got $4000 off of MSRP.
If you had to pay to have anything replaced on the bike short of the full battery it will cost less than $4000.
It is disingenuous for you to start a thread now acting like you've been lied to and ripped off and want to sue.
If the dealer took the bike back minus the mileage and you had to return the EV credit you got for buying a new EV. Would you then turn around and order a new bike to get the full 2/5 warranty at full MSRP? You could get the credit again after you registered the next bike but you'd be unwise to do such a thing.
Of course they won't give you that option but that's how ridiculous it would be to make you whole.
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The old post I quoted from you showed you knew the warranty was less when you bought the bike and you were still happy because you got $4000 off of MSRP.
If you had to pay to have anything replaced on the bike short of the full battery it will cost less than $4000.
It is disingenuous for you to start a thread now acting like you've been lied to and ripped off and want to sue.
If the dealer took the bike back minus the mileage and you had to return the EV credit you got for buying a new EV. Would you then turn around and order a new bike to get the full 2/5 warranty at full MSRP? You could get the credit again after you registered the next bike but you'd be unwise to do such a thing.
Of course they won't give you that option but that's how ridiculous it would be to make you whole.
People must love you around here Dude. I never said I was lied to and ripped off. What are you talking about ???
I don’t understand the demonstration bike deal and I am trying to understand it. I have learned some good info here. You have a lot of post and that’s cool. You should try being a little nicer.
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I think I have been pretty clear on the issue I have with this. Just to recap......
I love the bike.
I got a great price.
The dealership explained everything about the warranty to me but they sprung it on me the last minute which almost killed the deal.
The motorcycle was not advertised as a Demo although it was advertised ‘On Sale’
I didn’t receive anything in writing about my specific warranty but I have learned how to find the exact date in this thread.
My title states the bike as new with one mile on the odometer.
Other things I have learned in this thread.....
All showroom bikes are demos
Zero May be the only manufacturer that does this ?
If you want a “new” bike you have to order it
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Craig, this is what I wrote to you and Cas aka Princec in his thread "Finally took the plunge"
"Congrats to both of you new EV riders. They aren't perfect but they do what most people want to do, so well, it's a blast to ride."
I am a nice person. But if you think people on here can't figure out what your trying to do and what your complaining about when your starting a thread asking about "what are the laws" your mistaken.
You don't have to type every letter of every word out to show your meaning.
The warranty policy is what it is. I've posted a few times I didn't like it or agree with it, if that makes you feel better.
It happened as this tread shows because some dealers abused the warranty policy.
So last time, you got a good deal. You have posted on a public forum that you knew you weren't getting the full warranty and that you were still happy with the deal. You have no case against the dealer or Zero. It's Zero's warranty and their written policy explains what you get when it's new or a demo and what they consider a demo.
No hard feelings on my end .
Enjoy the bike.
I see you posted while I was typing so I hope you feel better about the situation and continue to ride and post comments and ask if you need any help.
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What I’m trying to do and what I complaining about 🤣🤣🤣 whatever
I reread the warranty and found on 9.2
It states that on Zero motorcycles that are not demonstration models the warranty starts when the bike is sold or three years after delivery to the dealership if it’s not sold sooner. EDIT-disclaimer, this is not the exact wording because I couldn’t paste just to be clear
How about that
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Good luck.
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After reading the whole thread here the only complaint might be with the valuation used for personal property tax.
Zero could go out of business and all the warranty get kind of questionable, I would imagine most folks kind of know this.
If you do write consumer protection it has been my experience they must respond to consumer protection in writing where they have been problematic in getting much of a response. It also must be noted somewhere somehow.
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"All showroom bikes are demos"
Patently FALSE. I can't speak for all manufacturers but I worked at a BMW motorcycle dealership and there were bikes that were ordered for selling, and bikes ordered to be demos. The terms for the dealership from the distributor were different for each. As employees, we were allowed to borrow the demo bike if we needed it while our own personal bikes were being serviced but we were told not to put too much mileage on it.
Yes, we could sell the demo bike with NO mileage if someone offered us enough money for it, but if we were only allowed a certain number of demo bikes per year, then we may not have been able to replace it. A lot of people would not want to plunk down the price of a new BMW without first trying one so that decision could've cost us sales down the line.
Granted, this was many years ago and things MIGHT have changed since then...
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"All ZERO showroom bikes are demos"
Is the only thing that matters.
Remember Zero's slogan, "put butts on bikes" that went to their dealers. Most people don't know what an electric ride feels like so test rides are needed more than a gas bike.
Thus any showroom bike can be test ridden aka demoed.
MY nearest dealer WOW in GA would get new models in Jan and you could test ride the bike. If you wanted to buy it they would order you one. They would only sell the demo in late summer at a discount to move it out.
Other dealers may vary but WOW gets some of the earliest deliveries because they discount the old ones and move them out.
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I sent an email to Zero yesterday asking for documentation on the in service date and demo status of my motorcycle.
They answered today. They offered no information. They directed me to the dealership.
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Here is what a Zero dealer (not mine) said in the Zero group.....
“As a dealer, I can have 10 DSR models in stock if I choose to do so. But Zero only allows me to claim one as a demo at any time. The others are Floor Display models and are not to be ridden by employees / customers. Now, this said, most dealers only have one of each model in stock and they would be demo bikes. But it is possible to have non-demo bikes on the floor as new.
Also, most bikes come from the factory with a couple of miles on them from when they put them on the Dyno machine to test functionality prior to crating.”
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"Also, most bikes come from the factory with a couple of miles on them from when they put them on the Dyno machine to test functionality prior to crating."
That much is pretty much true of almost any vehicle. I've never taken delivery of a vehicle (two or four wheels) with "0" on the odometer. They always have at least one or two miles on them.
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Here is what a Zero dealer (not mine) said in the Zero group.....
“As a dealer, I can have 10 DSR models in stock if I choose to do so. But Zero only allows me to claim one as a demo at any time. The others are Floor Display models and are not to be ridden by employees / customers. Now, this said, most dealers only have one of each model in stock and they would be demo bikes. But it is possible to have non-demo bikes on the floor as new.
Also, most bikes come from the factory with a couple of miles on them from when they put them on the Dyno machine to test functionality prior to crating.”
That aligns completely with the various Nevada and California authorized Zero dealerships I'd interacted with. Old stories of stripping parts off floor display models to fix customer bikes abound... also "misplacing" bikes from the service shop and they end up on the showroom floor never to be repaired. Actual things that happened. "That bike you're letting me test ride looks awfully familiar. Does the owner know it's being used for test rides?"
Is that Zero-specific though? I would think that there's a broader distinction between floor model bikes and demo or loaner bikes where it concerns the repair, franchise, and dealership agreements. Also where a culture of transience and bending the rules overshadows any sort of sensible pathway to the prospective customer.
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In NYS, only the demo model carries insurance. So if the dealership should allow a potential customer to ride something other than the designated demonstrator and that customer has an accident then the dealership is left holding the bag. They'll have to repair it out of their own pocket if they hope to sell it. Most dealerships aren't willing to take that gamble.
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So, what is the conclusion here gentlemen?
The OP stated the dealership told him it was a demo and he wouldn't get the full warranty.
He did get $4k off MSRP on a bike that had been there about a year.
He questioned if that was right and contacted Zero, who has the final say, and they confirmed what the dealer said about the warranty.
The bike lost the warranty time that it sat at the dealer being available for test rides.
What I get is:
A: The dealer didn't do a good job encouraging people to go on test rides with the bike. That is key to selling electric motorcycles to show the feel and torque over a cheaper gas bike sitting next to it.
B: The owner is "implying" that even he didn't take the bike for a test ride since he says it only had one mile on it. Doesn't seem right for buying an expensive and totally new type of motorcycle, but maybe.
C: The discount is worth far more than one extra year of warranty but the OP feels cheated or wronged in some way and is seeking "laws" to try to get the lost warranty time back. If that isn't the case then, what is the point of the thread?
Zero sets the rules for it's warranty coverage, and they are what they are. Energica only gives a 3 year warranty on their batteries instead of Zero's five. No laws forcing more or less time it is just a perk to encourage the sell and confidence in the brand.
At the end of the day the warranty is only as good as the company giving it. When Alta went under those warranties were void.
The only way someone could have recourse regarding if a bike were a demo or not would be if someone thought they were getting a brand new bike and finding out, somehow maybe shipped sight unseen, that it was a demo with a few hundred miles on it and no discount given. Then a case could be made that the buyer didn't get what they paid for.
That's not the case here. He was told it had less warranty, that was confirmed by the company, and he got a big discount worth more than the warranty time.
What more is there?
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I think you summed it up pretty succinctly.
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Interesting thread. I had read this yesterday. Just got back from a dealer visit, I was interested in an S, but they only had an SRS and SRF. Was told if I didn't want to wait I could have one of those and they were demo bikes (also for sale at MSRP only with no discount). I questioned if there would be a reduced warranty. They said no and that they had never heard of that. Got impression not overly experienced in selling Zeros. Bad news was that they wanted MSRP if I ordered an S along with about $1500 in shipping and fees. Between that and taxes it's over a 20% bump in price.
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Interesting thread. I had read this yesterday. Just got back from a dealer visit, I was interested in an S, but they only had an SRS and SRF. Was told if I didn't want to wait I could have one of those and they were demo bikes (also for sale at MSRP only with no discount). I questioned if there would be a reduced warranty. They said no and that they had never heard of that. Got impression not overly experienced in selling Zeros. Bad news was that they wanted MSRP if I ordered an S along with about $1500 in shipping and fees. Between that and taxes it's over a 20% bump in price.
Sometimes sales people are a dealership's worst enemy. They want their commission and they don't care how much they need to lie in order to get it...
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Interesting thread. I had read this yesterday. Just got back from a dealer visit, I was interested in an S, but they only had an SRS and SRF. Was told if I didn't want to wait I could have one of those and they were demo bikes (also for sale at MSRP only with no discount). I questioned if there would be a reduced warranty. They said no and that they had never heard of that. Got impression not overly experienced in selling Zeros. Bad news was that they wanted MSRP if I ordered an S along with about $1500 in shipping and fees. Between that and taxes it's over a 20% bump in price.
I have bought three Zeros over the years and none of them required paying shipping or setup fees (or "extra dealer profit", either). Just state and local sales taxes (at 9% of the sale price) and a couple of hundred dollars for registration fees. All three bikes were new and sold at MSRP.
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Interesting thread. I had read this yesterday. Just got back from a dealer visit, I was interested in an S, but they only had an SRS and SRF. Was told if I didn't want to wait I could have one of those and they were demo bikes (also for sale at MSRP only with no discount). I questioned if there would be a reduced warranty. They said no and that they had never heard of that. Got impression not overly experienced in selling Zeros. Bad news was that they wanted MSRP if I ordered an S along with about $1500 in shipping and fees. Between that and taxes it's over a 20% bump in price.
I have bought three Zeros over the years and none of them required paying shipping or setup fees (or "extra dealer profit", either). Just state and local sales taxes (at 9% of the sale price) and a couple of hundred dollars for registration fees. All three bikes were new and sold at MSRP.
Thx, I’ll check for other dealers