ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: JaimeC on April 28, 2021, 07:30:08 PM
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https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/27/business/summer-gasoline-shortage/index.html
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Looks like it will be time to visit the Hydrogen Highway and see how the prices are there. ;)
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My heart bleeds.
"And then there's a new federal clearinghouse that went online in January 2020 to identify truck drivers with prior drug or alcohol violations or failed drug tests, which knocked about 40,000 to 60,000 total drivers out of the national employment pool."
wtaf
Cas :)
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My heart bleeds.
"And then there's a new federal clearinghouse that went online in January 2020 to identify truck drivers with prior drug or alcohol violations or failed drug tests, which knocked about 40,000 to 60,000 total drivers out of the national employment pool."
wtaf
That's just what I want to hear... the guy driving several tons of a highly flammable cargo could be drunk out of his gourd!!
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Driver turnover is usually 50% but went to 70% and many of their drivers refused to follow safety procedures.
Gosh.
-Crissa
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See exactly two minutes (2.00) in to see what to do.
This guy tells us what we can do (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFp2V2PAtCk)
-Don- Reno, NV
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Conter points to previous post. ( Note I am not anti electric emotorcycles, I am very pro, but...): Also note: I am not talking electric emotorcycles which have really brilliant offerings only actual registerable vehicles.
1: Why don't I buy an electric motorcycle. Because I can't get one that is fast enough to stay alive on on the highway into town that doesn't cost 2 to 4 times as much as an ICE bike. In Australia there simply isn't any. I have been looking for the past year and a bit.
2. Electric motorcycles are about to get a tax slapped on them just for owning and using it, if the State governments have their way.
3 When there is an emotorcycle ( that is motorcycle , not scooter with proper sized wheels and decent suspension) that I can ride through the estate to the highway, turn onto the highway and do 100kph to avoid being run over by the semis for 8km, then then ride around and do what I need for 10 to 20 km, then return home including 100kph section, and, doesn't cost twice as much as a 125 120km/l ICE motorcycle , I will buy one...immediately...
PS And preferable doesn't look like a pseudo cafe racer, but that's just me.
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My S does all that.
-Crissa
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If this administration was in the pay of a foreign government to quickly wreck the US economy, what would it be doing differently?
Oh, wait...
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If this administration was in the pay of a foreign government to quickly wreck the US economy, what would it be doing differently?
This administration?
Generally foreign powers don't like it when their adversaries build their economies to move quickly, to save lives, and invest in infrastructure.
Makes it a bit harder to destabilize your competition when they're self-sufficient and their GDP is growing faster.
-Crissa
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My S does all that.
Mine too. ;)
One thing people overlook: Yes, the purchase price of an eMotorcycle is high compared to the purchase price of an ICE bike... but it doesn't take long to realize that if you keep the ICE bike for more than a few years it quickly becomes more expensive to OWN.
My Zero has no spark plugs to replace, no valves to adjust, no oil or coolant to change, no clutch to adjust/replace, and no filters to replace EVER. Electricity also costs a helluva lot less per mile than gasoline as well with most of the charging stations around me allowing FREE charging. Those that do charge a fee are still cheaper than a tank of gasoline.
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A lot of potential EV buyers get stuck at the initial sticker shock, and it sucks that they don't see the potential savings vs ICE counterparts. Their loss I guess.
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The cost savings arguments are all very true, but they don't entice people to buy. All those same arguments were made for EV cars ten years ago, but it wasn't until people saw drag race videos of Teslas beating powerful gas cars that they started selling in droves. If people are thinking about saving money, they'll compare an EM to something like a Yamaha XMAX 300 with an MSRP of $5,300 that gets 75 MPG, but if they are thinking about superbike levels of torque off-the-line and silently blasting away from everything on two or four wheels they might start comparing them to much more expensive gas bikes.
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The harsh reality is that all three of the big players - Zero, Energica, Harley - are massively overpricing their bikes compared to the ICE competition, and they won't really be able to get away with it for many more years because BMW, Honda, Kymco, etc will soon have entries to compete with. It does work out financially - just - in the long term, provided it really is quite a long term, and nothing expensive fails out of warranty, and you got a deal on the original purchase. But let's not fool ourselves, they're still niche toys for the well-heeled at this point, not the great saviours of the environment and general purpose personal transportation panacea for the Great Unwashed that they need to be.
Cas :)
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Conter points to previous post.
Don't need them. Somebody could easily do an "Eight reasons to NOT buy an electric motorcycle".
But even with all their issues (the main one, IMO, is the poor charging infrastructure in some areas) I find I enjoy electrics the most and I put more miles on them than all my many ICE vehicles combined.
BTW, something I recently thought of. EVs are LESS electric than ICE and by far. ICE vehicles have electrical stuff such as a fuel pump, alternator, distributor, spark plugs, MAP, CPS, TPS, O2 sensors, ECM, battery and more just to run the engine, that EVs so not have.
EVs are mainly just a battery, & controller to run the motor.
I recently mentioned that to an ICE driver who said he is so tired of electrical failures in his ICE car that he would never own an EV. I explained there was LESS electrical stuff to go wrong in an EV.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The harsh reality is that all three of the big players - Zero, Energica, Harley - are massively overpricing their bikes
Not really. The problem is the battery is still very expensive. If they can make that battery cheap, EVs will be a lot cheaper than ICE.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Sorry, the big brands won't bring cheap E-motorcycles to fruition. They couldn't do it for cars, why would they be able to do it for motorcycles?
They won't be making more of them, and most of the cost is in the battery. They'll be stuck with the same or higher prices.
-Crissa
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The cost of the battery does not actually add up when you compare the price of EV cars.
Kia EV6 - 77.4kWh - £40k - approximately 1 tonne of car gubbins and a battery
Zero SR/F - 14.4kWh - £20k - approximately 150kg of bike gubbins and a battery
There's no way the maths adds up... even <handwavy> "economies of scale". If the battery is the bulk of the cost, then the Kia should tend towards costing approximately 5x more than the Zero. Mass production and industrial pricing discounts of 80%? I don't think so.
Also as I said before - the actual cycle parts of the SR/F are really nothing special. KTM build the chassis and running gear of the 390 Duke for under £1000.
Cas :)
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The harsh reality is that all three of the big players - Zero, Energica, Harley - are massively overpricing their bikes compared to the ICE competition, and they won't really be able to get away with it for many more years because BMW, Honda, Kymco, etc will soon have entries to compete with.
I'd point out that Harley Davidson IS already a pretty big player, and their electric bike costs MORE than anything Zero or Energica offers (it is also supposedly the biggest selling electric motorcycle on the market at the moment). At one time, BMW's eScooter was the most expensive electric two-wheeler on the market. Just because a company is big doesn't mean they'll be able to undercut the established players. Don't expect Asia to come on like gangbusters from the start. Their target market is initially going to be the heavily congested urban areas in Asia and the Middle East. Swappable batteries are generally NOT going to hold sufficient charge for highway travel but lends itself well to running errands and commuting in urban traffic.
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I'm thinking that it's BMW, KTM and Triumph who will be the leaders from the West, and Kymco who will rise from the East. Only time will tell. The price will plummet over the next decade though.
Cas :)
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Battery density is part of the cost, as a Zero is using more expensive cells than Kia. Some parts just don't change price much, like the management.
But the Kia EV still costs more than an ICE equivalent, and that won't change for bikes. And bikes aren't made with the same amount of automation. There just aren't as many of them made, so that makes the prices higher.
Even used ICE bikes aren't really cost-competitive with used cars.
-Crissa
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Hi T.S. Zarathustra,
While your points about some of what goes into the cost of a gas are basically true, some aspects of electric are being missed.
You seem to be open to an EV motorcycle but it looks like a bad deal to you at the moment. That's fair. I admit for some people it doesn't work out as the best option at this point of technology advancement.
A quick simple figure math comparison.
I've got over 60,000 miles on my bikes. It costs me about $1 to go 100 miles. That is $600 for all my "fuel".
Assuming a gas bike gets 50 miles per gallon and costs $3 average per gallon that's $3600 for the same distance. A savings of $3000.
As for charge time and time is money, I have to ask you for an honest answer. How far do you ride a day when you ride?
Now I'm again assuming you use it to go to work most days. If not and you use it as a weekend fun long riding bike then you should stay on gas bikes for now.
But if it is your commuting mode of transportation and you're going less than 70 miles round trip. You wouldn't need to fill up away from home at all. You come in, plug in, and forget it. It takes about 20 secs and your done. Really just a matter of getting into the habit of doing it.
For me it's the ride feel and the torque and quiet that I like the most. It can be such a slow relaxing ride or change modes and beat most anyone off the line.
If you get a chance take one for a test ride and see if it might be closer to replacing a gas bike than you think.
Cheers.
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That's my use case. Turns out 99% of all my rides are < 100 miles. I've not needed a public charger yet.
Cas :)
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Like I said if it can't work for you that's fine.
But to counter some of what you said, how far away is work? No need to pay for the work charging station if you don't need it.
The work that you do on your own bike doesn't end with a bill but like you said time is money, and the tools weren't free either.
As for group rides, yes 100% agree, mixing the gas and electric bikes on a group ride doesn't really work. Although I think it would really be worth doing the math to see if renting works out cheaper on those few rides a year.
As for my bikes, I got both very cheap because I'm very cheap. :)
I paid $8000 for the orange one in 2015 with about 7000 miles. I had looked at a used 2008 DR650 at the time for $4k. I thought I'd pay twice as much for a Zero and a week later saw mine for sale.
For me it has worked out great and I'd recommend buying a used one with a little warranty left to make sure if anything is wrong with it it gets fixed for free. Miles mean very little and I'd prefer signs of some use to prove the battery is getting cycled regularly.
Again it's all good if you wait for now. In about 5 years electric will be the far superior option, and your always welcome aboard.
Cheers.
I'm going on a 1/2 dollar ride now. :)
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[IMHO the main reason these manufacturers are this expensive is not the price of batteries. Large battery orders (over 10 000 cells) are less than 10% of the price they were 10 years ago, per kilowatt. So why has Zero not dropped in price accordingly? I believe the main reason for the high price of electric vehicles is that they are not made in proper streamlined factories and development costs are divided between few built bikes. Henry Ford revolutionized the car industry by introducing the conveyor belts, and making large volume of identical cars. Making it possible for him to drastically undercut the competition on price. He is said to have said that you could have your car in any color you choose as long you choose black.
What I am seeing is the prices of EVs starting to go down as the price of the batteries go down. But with Zero, the prices stay the same as the bikes get a little better, such as my thicker belt on my DS than on the same price bike in 2016. Or the larger battery capacity in 2019.
But the battery is still close to around half the vehicle price in most EVs.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Guessing things are different in Europe, TS. My company provides charging stations for their employees FREE. Only we can use them, they're not open to the public. Most of the shopping malls around me have free charging stations as well. They know charging takes longer than filling a gas car and they also know people are going to want to do SOMETHING rather than stare at their vehicle while it charges and they'll likely wander into the mall and likely buy something (even if it's just a cup of coffee).
No all eBikes are created equal, by they way. Energicas and the Harley Livewire still require oil changes. Zeros are about as maintenance-free a motorcycle as ever created. I'm not a mechanic, I don't trust myself with tools so this makes it damned near perfect for me. I still have my ICE bikes; the Zero would never serve as my "only" bike... but it does serve the purpose for over 95% of the time I ride. By riding the Zero more and the ICE bikes less, it is also less wear and tear on them too. My K1200LT used to go into the shop two or three times a year for it's 6,000 mile service intervals; now it's MAYBE once a year (if even that much). Considering how much the mechanic charges to service that bike that is a HUGE savings for me.
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90% of my rides are under 40 miles, to be honest, and the ones that are, well, I'm going somewhere specific so it can charge while I'm there to get back.
If I don't need to carry something that doesn't fit on the bike, why would I drive? I'm going to get takeout now, for instance.
-Crissa
...honestly, having a Zero means I eat alot more takeout, which prolly blows the savings ^-^
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FWIW and solely from my perspective - I bought my LW for fun. Just like I bought V8 bikes for fun. If I worried about savings I'd never have bought a V8 anything especially a V8 bike: 15-18mpg touring and 8-10mpg around town bwahaha. But you haven't had a really good time shopping if you haven't gone for groceries on a 502ci motorcycle with a 150hp shot of NOS in case you absolutely, positively have to get home before the Haagen-Dasz melts :-)