ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: bobbyperu on April 21, 2021, 02:56:37 AM
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Hi guys, if you go for the power tank you can't get the charge tank. So what's the quickest possible charge you can get at home and on the road, with a 14.4 battery plus power tank, and how do you achieve it? Many thanks!
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A few points here.
I know you said you wanted to do some off road riding. The DS is pretty heavy as is and the power tank adds about 45 pounds up high.
Not saying it can't be done but you said your new to riding so something to think about.
I''ll assume Spain runs 240 volt outlets so 3kws per hour from a standard outlet in Spain.
There are option like buying 2 of Zero's Delta Q chargers and a Y cable to give you 3kws with the onboard charger. Set you back about $1400 US.
There are other aftermarket units but you "may" risk voiding your warranty not going with Zero's options.
This will take you about 5-6 hours with the 3kw option 0 to 100%.
But you don't have to wait that long. That's key. You just get as much power for the range you need to get home or where ever your going and unplug and go.
For EU I think I'd go charge tank for the 6kw option. There are lots of stations over there to use.
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OK, thanks for your advice. If I get the charge tank, what would be the quickest possible charge for the 14.4 battery? I have read the zero site but I am wondering about future technologies or even combining the charge tank with a quiq charger (if that can be done)? I think I read that whatever you do, the battery has a limit to how fast it can be charged, so you are always looking at 2hrs for a 14.4 battery, or can than actually be improved on?
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The charge rate limit is 1C, which means 1 times the capacity. For example with a 7.2kW/h model that means you shouldn't charge any higher than 7.2kW, which means you shouldn't use the charge tank and the on board charger at the same time (6.6+1.3=7.9kW). I don't know if there's actually a limit in the software to prevent you doing this, I think there are people that have charged at a higher rate, but Zero doesn't recommend it and doing so would void the warranty. Because of this 1C limit the fastest you'll ever be able to charge from 0 to 100% is around 1 hour.
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Thank you. So if I buy a DS with a 14.4kw battery, I assume then the highest possible charge rate is 14.4
Given that the charge station provides about half of that, it will take 2 hours and not be at 1c. Is there currently a way to get nearer to 1C for a 2021 DS with a charge station? Maybe by using a level 2 charger with the charge station and also using a combination of quick chargers in the other socket?
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Ahh new owner excitement. :)
A SRS/F premium with a charge tank gets you 12kw if the station can give that much. If you want to tour then go that route or Energica with it's CCS charging.
A DS just really isn't setup for touring and 500 mile days. It should handle your work ride even without charging if you go slower. If you can charge at work your golden.
A DS with charge tank can get you about 60ish miles of range in one hour. Note that the charge rate is slower 0-20% and 80-100%. The touring guys stay in that sweet speed charging range and go 20-80% unplug and go.
I wouldn't get multiple Delta Q charger if you got the charge tank. They are too big and heavy to carry two around with you. You'd need two station near each other and empty. Plus two accounts for the stations to pay for two charges.
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Yes, plenty of excitement here! Thanks for this helpful response
Here are a couple more noob questions!
So if I go for the charge station, I presume this does not stop me using domestic sockets at home and at work, right? And if I am using those normal sockets, can I still use a quick charger to reduce the charge time by 50% if I have the charge station installed?
Also, a slightly different question, given that Zero has previously brought out a 3kw charge station and then a 6kw one, does this mean they might soon bring out a 12kw one (for example) that would charge the 14.4 bikes in just over an hour, using the type of charging stations we have here in Europe? If that is the case it may make more sense to not install the current charge tank and wait for a better one!
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(I know English is your second language and it's much better than my Espanol) So it's a charge "tank".
A charging station is like a gas station pump, it's an "out in the world" charging option.
The charge tank has a J1772 inlet where the gas tank would be on a motorcycle.
The bike will come with an onboard charger at the bottom of the bike. It only goes at 1.3kw no matter what your EU outlet can do. You'll find it's mostly all you'll need for daily use. Plug it in at night and it's ready to go in the morning.
I have one Delta Q charger. It plugs into the bike near the bottom and can be used with your onboard charger for about 2.3kw. I love that it's a backup and can charge the bike if the onboard charger goes out. Even in a big top case you "might" get two of them in it but they aren't light.
If your looking to do some longer rides (200 miles) the charge tank is the way to go. Maybe 3 stops of 25 minuets should do it.
I would say the only way Zero will give faster charging will be with an all new battery and bike. Just my opinion.
So it's a fun bike and it's cheap to put miles on, just not to buy. I can't say what will come out soon or not but at worst you ride now and wait for new tech to get cheaper.
Good luck.
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thanks again, most helpful.
I am still not quite clear though, sorry, about one part. If I install the charge tank then I am good when I am on the road, I get that. But then does it limit my options when I am at home/work? I mean, i understand that without the charge tank, I can plug in a quick charger (or up to 4) and also the onboard charger, all into domestic sockets. But if there is a charge tank in there where the onboard charger used to be, does that take away one connection with a domestic socket? Or can you use a domestic socket with a charge tank as well as the J1772?
Sorry for all the questions and thanks again :)
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The onboard charger always stays there, Even with a charge tank.
The charge tank is a add-on that allows you to charge in 2 hours using a J1772
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Hi guys, if you go for the power tank you can't get the charge tank. So what's the quickest possible charge you can get at home and on the road, with a 14.4 battery plus power tank, and how do you achieve it? Many thanks!
I charge my 2017 Zero SR with Pwr Tank as high as 7.9KW on the road and ten KW at home, using external Elcon chargers, one in each saddlebag. See here. (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.30)
-Don- Auburn, CA
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thanks guys, Don that sounds awesome, but I am not technically minded, so not sure how hard it is to achieve? I followed the link but it looked like ot might be complex for someone without an electrical background? Is that right? What you can do is exactly what I would like to know that I could achieve, even if it's not necessary at first
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thanks guys, Don that sounds awesome, but I am not technically minded, so not sure how hard it is to achieve? I followed the link but it looked like ot might be complex for someone without an electrical background? Is that right? What you can do is exactly what I would like to know that I could achieve, even if it's not necessary at first
Well, I have been in electronics for all of my life, but it is not a difficult job to wire in the external chargers to small Anderson connectors going to the battery terminals on the motor controller.
I sometimes use two J-1772 stations as I can charge at a higher rate than most of the J-1772 plugs can deliver. That's why I added that switch, for the times I can only use one J-1772 and not need to keep the key in when the OBC is not being used.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I think the OP is in Spain so there's no J1772's anyway, it's Mennekes adapters instead. Which are all over the place.
Cas :)
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Thanks guys, yes I am in Spain and I see that around me there are lots of Tesla destination chargers and also type 2 charging stations
So it looks as though I should go for the charge tank rather than the power tank. But since they are all 22kw and the bike has a 14.4kw battery, with 1c maximum speed, it seems a shame I cannot get over 6kw of charge to the bike. Since zero already have a 12kw charger (for the new range) do you think this, or an adapted version, will eventually be available for 2021 DS bikes, or is there some reason why we will never be able to do this?
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The new bikes' charge tank is a 6kw unit same as for the gen 2 bikes.
The premium bikes have (I think) two 3kw units that gives you 12 total. The standard SRF/S comes with one 3kw unit.
I had hoped the would make it retro fit but so far they have not.
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Yeah here's hoping for a 12kw charge station for the DS in future...
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Yeah here's hoping for a 12kw charge station for the DS in future...
Many Tesla Destination stations can do 14 or 16 KW. So all you need is the Tesla-Tap where you can find such. I think the lowest wattages ones are 12K, common in homes like mine.
And be sure to check for residential stations on Plugshare. I would add my houses to such if I wasn't in locations that already had many places to charge anything.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I really want to pull the trigger on a 2021 DS but then I read about this https://pushevs.com/2021/04/11/farasis-energy-reaches-330-wh-kg-with-new-battery-cell/ (https://pushevs.com/2021/04/11/farasis-energy-reaches-330-wh-kg-with-new-battery-cell/) new battery development, literally a couple of weeks ago, and it seems like this, plus the fact that the DS hasn't had a technological update for 4 yrs, means that the 2022 bikes will see an interesting jump in range and charge time. Nevertheless, if I knew that they'd bring out a 12kw charge tank in the future that would be backwards compatible with the 2021 DS, I would still go for it now. I wonder how likely that would be. Obviously they already have the 12kw tank on the cypher 3 bikes.. .
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I really want to pull the trigger on a 2021 DS but then I read about this https://pushevs.com/2021/04/11/farasis-energy-reaches-330-wh-kg-with-new-battery-cell/ (https://pushevs.com/2021/04/11/farasis-energy-reaches-330-wh-kg-with-new-battery-cell/) new battery development, literally a couple of weeks ago, and it seems like this, plus the fact that the DS hasn't had a technological update for 4 yrs, means that the 2022 bikes will see an interesting jump in range and charge time. Nevertheless, if I knew that they'd bring out a 12kw charge tank in the future that would be backwards compatible with the 2021 DS, I would still go for it now. I wonder how likely that would be. Obviously they already have the 12kw tank on the cypher 3 bikes.. .
I wouldn't put my money on that new battery being installed in next year's Zeros. It will take time for Farasis to work out production details and get their battery factory in China set up to manufacture the new batteries. That could take at least another year, if not longer. Then they have to start producing the new batteries in volume. Finally, Farasis is hooked up with some major auto manufacturers and those new batteries would likely go to them before they are supplied to Zero. My guess is to look for the more powerful batteries in the 2023 or more likely the 2024 models. And I doubt they will be installed in the "legacy" S/SR and DS models. Those bikes tend to get the leftovers a year or two later once newer models have been introduced.
Also, don't forget that Zero will have to update their MMB and BMS programming to accommodate the new batteries. And how long will that take? ???
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Interesting points, thanks. I have read elsewhere that Farasis claim they will be rolling them out commercially in 3 months from now, but it's still true that Zero will take time to put them into bikes, and there's no guarantee that any bike I can currently ride (with just a driving licence) will get one any time soon!
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Zero would also have o use up their current supply of batteries.
I don't think they've ever put different batteries in the F-platform than is in the S-platform. Isn't this now their longest battery plataeu?
-Crissa
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Yes from my research it seems like it is their longest plateau. Obviously technology is always changing but I sure don't want to spend my one and only budget for the next 5 years just before the next big jump....like buying a massively expensive CD player just before it all went digital or something...
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For my money, I'm betting all upgrades will only be applied to the FST platform bikes moving forward, and the S/DS/DSR will slowly be replaced with variants based on the new tech.
If there's a new battery or faster chargers or DC fast charging, I do not expect it to to trickle down.
This simplifies their manufacturing, and gives them the largest payoff on any FW or hardware upgrades,
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For my money, I'm betting all upgrades will only be applied to the FST platform bikes moving forward, and the S/DS/DSR will slowly be replaced with variants based on the new tech.
If there's a new battery or faster chargers or DC fast charging, I do not expect it to to trickle down.
This simplifies their manufacturing, and gives them the largest payoff on any FW or hardware upgrades,
And it gives an incentive for the owners of "legacy" models to upgrade to the newer versions. From a marketing point of view, you want your customers to be excited about buying the latest new model with the best performance, fastest charging and the longest range. Let the S/SR/DS be passed down to the grand kids. ;)
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Zero would also have o use up their current supply of batteries.
I don't think they've ever put different batteries in the F-platform than is in the S-platform. Isn't this now their longest battery plataeu?
-Crissa
A new "Limited anniversary edition" with a bunch of new colours might help use up their current supply:
https://www.rideapart.com/news/502576/zero-15th-anniversary-dsr-limited-edition/
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Ooo.
-Crissa
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Yeah, I was sort of leaning towards the 2021 DS but if I were zero right now, I'd be aiming to get something new for the 125cc market with the new batteries ASAP so I don't want my brand new expensive 2021 bike to instantly become a 'legacy' model. Hmm
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Everything you ever buy becomes a legacy the moment you unwrap it. Just do it, you really won't be disappointed. I absolutely love my Zero.
Cas :)
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True!!