ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: staples on March 19, 2021, 05:48:20 AM
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So I'm following Rivian, because I want one and I have a reservation. They put out some good news today that might benefit us riding folks.
They plan to add 10,000+ 11.5kW L2 chargers "at shops, restaurants, hotels, parks and more" across US and Canada. For example they have a deal set to add them to every state park in Colorado.
The 11.5kW will be nice for some that have that much charging capacity.
You can read about the "Rivian Waypoints" on their blog: https://stories.rivian.com/charging-your-rivian
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That'll be nice for the SR/F and SR/S owners who opted for the Rapid Charger module, but the news that they want their DC stations to be proprietary is a huge middle finger to everyone else.
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That'll be nice for the SR/F and SR/S owners who opted for the Rapid Charger module, but the news that they want their DC stations to be proprietary is a huge middle finger to everyone else.
"We are also installing thousands of Rivian Waypoint chargers across the US and Canada. Found at shopping centers, restaurants, hotels, campsites, parks and many other locations, these Level 2 AC chargers deliver up to 25 miles of range every hour for the R1T and R1S, letting you grab extra miles while you’re out having fun.
Over 10,000 Rivian Waypoints are planned across the US and Canada through 2023. Our first locations were announced this week — all 42 Colorado State Parks will have two Rivian Waypoints each, with installation starting in July. More announcements will follow soon. "
That is the good news. There are not many EV's that cannot use a J-1772. All four of mine can. And 11.5 KW on AC is nice, on the vehicles that have a 12 KW AC charger. My SR can charge at 8KW from those, I will have no complaints!
-Don- Reno, NV
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Their DC network is exclusive, though.
-Crissa
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Their DC network is exclusive, though.
-Crissa
Just like Tesla Superchargers.
IMO, that is fine, but they should have at least J-1772 at EVERY charge location of any type. IMO, that should be required. That is something all EVs can use. Even your bike, if you have the adapter.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Don then you have someone in a $80k Rivian being blocked out of the supercharger by some guy charging their J1772 leaf for 8 hours.
Edit.
I see you mean charging site and not a multi plug station. Never mind.
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The dc fast chargers won't be set up sort of drive through so the "truck" with a trailer can charge? And the destination chargers off to the side? Or will trailering require dropping the trailer somewhere so the hauler can fit?
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We don't know how the chargers will be set up yet, that's all the information so far.
-Crissa
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The dc fast chargers won't be set up sort of drive through so the "truck" with a trailer can charge? And the destination chargers off to the side? Or will trailering require dropping the trailer somewhere so the hauler can fit?
Some of the designs people have seen show a mix of everything. I'm not sure every location would have space for one or more trailer type spot. We'll just have to wait and see.
Here's one site's plan:
(https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/attachments/1614353497984-png.3304/)
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Don then you have someone in a $180k Rivian being blocked out of the supercharger by some guy charging their J1772 leaf for 8 hours.
Edit.
I see you mean charging site and not a multi plug station. Never mind.
Yes, but I will allow for some exceptions in areas that do not have the room. That is usually in the middle of cities and such anyway, where there are chargers of various types all over anyway.
But usually out in the country, where we really need the charge stations these days, there is usually plenty of room just about everywhere.
But in many cases, even if located on the same station will work. Take the Tesla Superchargers at Lake Topaz, NV for an example. They have several but nothing else. Not even a 120 VAC outlet. I have never seen more than one Supercharger there being used at a time and the norm is for none of them to be busy. If they all had J-1772 as well, it would cause no problem for anybody. But what I would do is leave one or two of them without the J1772. But even there, they have other room for such.
I am surprised that the casino there ONLY has Tesla Superchargers and NO other charging at all.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I am surprised that the casino there ONLY has Tesla Superchargers and NO other charging at all.
This is what I mean about exclusive chargers being a bad idea. Then someone decides 'we have chargers... Why do we need more?' and so there's no other chargers around.
That layout looked pretty good, a mix of J-stations and DC stations which would take trailers and not. I do like that they're saying the slow stations will be public - that's what's needed for small-scale BEVs, charger station density.
-Crissa
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It sucks that Rivian isn't opening up their DCFC network but it ensures that their customers get a spot when they need it. Maybe they'll open their network after DCFC stations are ubiquitous enough that they have nothing to worry about.
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It sucks that Rivian isn't opening up their DCFC network but it ensures that their customers get a spot when they need it. Maybe they'll open their network after DCFC stations are ubiquitous enough that they have nothing to worry about.
That is NOT usually the problem.
For an example, Tesla SuperChargers can only be used with Telsa. But if another car is designed to use such, Elon musk said they would be open to other brands of EV's. But so far, nobody has designed a car to use them other than Tesla.
It can be more tricky than you expect. For an example, notice there is not even a single button on a Telsa Charge Station (other than the one on the handle that will open a Telsa charge door via wireless) . No way to make a payment or anything. When I plug in, it reads my VIN number and sends a charge to my Tesla account. So all I do is plug in and walk away. Almost too easy.
And DC voltages have to be in the program for different makes of vehicles. Battery voltages and such can be a lot different.
This is not an issue with AC charging because the input is very standard. And they can do whatever is necessary with each make of vehicle for its AC charger DC output.
Too many variables with charging with DC when away from a "standard" such as CCS (which Tesla cannot even use). The only real standard is J-1772, Can't find an EV that cannot use J-1772.
But on DC, we have a lot of different standards and that may never change. So we have CCS, CHAdeMO, Telsa Super chargers, Rivian and perhaps even more. But all of those vehicles can use J-1772 AC charging in one way or another.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Rivian is not developing their own proprietary standard. Their vehicles will work with any J-1772 or CCS. They are limiting the use of their DC fast chargers to their vehicles. That could change in the future, but who knows.
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Rivian is not developing their own proprietary standard. Their vehicles will work with any J-1772 or CCS. They are limiting the use of their DC fast chargers to their vehicles. That could change in the future, but who knows.
Are you saying the Rivian does CCS fast charging along with some other type of fast DC charging?
Or are you saying they will have CCS charging that only Rivian may use?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Rivian is using CCS standard.
The proprietary is that you have to be on the network to use it.
-Crissa
And Don, we have told you that peak use is different than most of the time.
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Rivian is using CCS standard.
The proprietary is that you have to be on the network to use it.
And the network will only be available to Rivian vehicles? That won't last long just for being such a stupid idea. It's asking to lose money on their charging network.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I don't know, they will have 100,000 amazon trucks charging on it too.
I thought Porsche was going to have their own stations to deal with their high voltage fast charging too. I think those were going to be in city centers though.
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If it's CCS, then they could conceivably do the same thing Harley Davidson is doing: Free for their owners, but anyone else would have to pay. Unlike the Tesla Supercharger stations, CCS is an industry standard, not a proprietary hook-up.
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I don't know, they will have 100,000 amazon trucks charging on it too.
I thought Porsche was going to have their own stations to deal with their high voltage fast charging too. I think those were going to be in city centers though.
OIC. Then I can see why they probably want to do what they're doing. It should depend on what time it is, IOW, let anybody use them at night, for a small fee, when Amazon won't be using such.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I doubt any Amazon delivery vans would be using the Rivian Adventure Network. Why would they pay somebody an hourly wage to sit and wait for a vehicle to charge? They'd presumably have enough charging infrastructure at their distribution centers to charge their vans overnight when deliveries are not happening.
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I doubt any Amazon delivery vans would be using the Rivian Adventure Network. Why would they pay somebody an hourly wage to sit and wait for a vehicle to charge? They'd presumably have enough charging infrastructure at their distribution centers to charge their vans overnight when deliveries are not happening.
Perhaps they use that time for something work related. Besides, it doesn't take all that long to charge with CCS. It's not like those slow Zeros charging . . . .
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Looks like a lot of the stuff was already touched upon but here's my thoughts.
For an example, Tesla SuperChargers can only be used with Telsa. But if another car is designed to use such, Elon musk said they would be open to other brands of EV's. But so far, nobody has designed a car to use them other than Tesla.
It can be more tricky than you expect. For an example, notice there is not even a single button on a Telsa Charge Station (other than the one on the handle that will open a Telsa charge door via wireless) . No way to make a payment or anything. When I plug in, it reads my VIN number and sends a charge to my Tesla account. So all I do is plug in and walk away. Almost too easy.
This doesn't apply to Rivian, they haven't disclosed how/if they'll plan to open their DCFC network. Setting up payment methods without app/credit already works outside Tesla. The Mach-E can plug into Electrify America chargers, and they pay through an account handled through Ford.
And DC voltages have to be in the program for different makes of vehicles. Battery voltages and such can be a lot different.
All CCS charging-capable vehicles adhere to the standards in which they can accept at least the minimum voltage set. Even Tesla's propriatary superchargers have this feature.
Too many variables with charging with DC when away from a "standard" such as CCS (which Tesla cannot even use). The only real standard is J-1772, Can't find an EV that cannot use J-1772.
But on DC, we have a lot of different standards and that may never change. So we have CCS, CHAdeMO, Telsa Super chargers, Rivian and perhaps even more. But all of those vehicles can use J-1772 AC charging in one way or another.
While Tesla's Supercharger can be considered a standard, it still uses the CCS requirements. There's already CCS1 adapters made in Korea which work on Model S/X. There's no fancy equipment necessary to convert the form factor.
Another standard you can add to that list is China GB/T which is a lot like CHAdeMO but I believe the latest version marries the two together.
The real charging standard "war" is ccs1/2 vs CHAdeMO. I think it might just settle on those two standards indefinitely between east and west. It'll definitely get tricky in 25+ years when we import classic cars. Hopefully, we can hire techs who can convert older EVs to other charging standards.