ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Damon => Topic started by: MVetter on February 21, 2021, 01:25:58 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPp9O3gQQ1k
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Covers a lot of good points. I feel like he pulled a few punches on others. Regardless, it's good information.
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Let me help this millennial hipster solve the first mystery. The CEO is Jay "Damon" Giraud.
As to what they have been doing over the last year? Well if he had signed up for the Damon News Letter he would have known about these five changes since the CES reveal.
Improved bodywork designs
A more powerful motor
A higher voltage battery configuration
New handlebar controls
A new 7'' recessed LCD display
Other then that most of his information could have come from the website or my posts here in the Damon section of our beloved EMF.
The only real question is the range numbers. Which sadly we know is the most optimum range estimate at the best conditions, but that's what everyone quotes so it's fair until a better standard is made.
I was very disappointed to see in the Dutch range test video you posted that the 21kWh Energicas only got 100 miles of mixed riding and not the 143 claimed. Only about 20 more miles than the 14.4 kWh Zero SRF.
Maybe this guy will make a video on that since he is self designated "Ebike Vice".
At this point only money and Covid can keep this bike from hitting the roads. We'll see how it goes. ;)
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Also this is a good time to remind everyone that as the borders reopen and test ride events are planned, it's the areas with the most test ride requests and reservation holders that will be the first test ride areas.
You can set up a free account at Damon.com and request your no obligation test ride now. Unless test riding awesome new electric motorcycles just isn't your thing.
But then the question is, why are you here? :)
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I was very disappointed to see in the Dutch range test video you posted that the 21kWh Energicas only got 100 miles of mixed riding and not the 143 claimed. Only about 20 more miles than the 14.4 kWh Zero SRF.
In the face of statistics from every other electric motorcycle, why would this be a surprise? Not that I'm memorable or anything but I did mention the other day that the formula appears to be KWh / 20 = reliable typical average miles out of a charge (or, 5 miles per KWh). The Energica is bang on the money, just as the Zeros and Livewire are. Any manufacturer claiming anything else at this point is... full of shit.
Cas :)
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Regarding the observed range of the four bikes in the Dutch test: The temperatures were FREEZING. They probably would've seen roughly 20% better range out of all four bikes if they did it in decent weather. Still, it was a good look at the RELATIVE ranges of the four bikes.
As for Damon, I learned my lesson from Lightning's press releases. When something sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
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Cas ol buddy we also talked about how you don't own any electric motorcycle so I'll tell you this, I got 98 miles on my 2013 11.4 kWh Zero DS in the GA summer on back roads and and stop and go traffic. So I know what effect going slower and having a hot day does for range.
That was a best case for that bike but it did do it. That's about 10 miles per kWh. I get at least 8.5 miles at under 50MPH riding in the summer.
I think Electric Terry got 200 miles on either a 13 or 14.4 battery by super hyper mile-ing, aka sub 20MPH. Not what most people want to do but it can be done.
Here is the posted range for the Energica Ego+ from their website:
RANGE: 400 km – 249 miles City / 230 km – 143 miles Combined / 180 km – 112 miles Extra Urban
The Dutch video claimed their test ride was a mix of highway and back roads. Take 10-15% for the cold and it still should have got 130 miles. It didn't. It got below their "Extra Urban" range which I assume means highway 60MPH conditions.
I point this out for two reasons.
First I'm in camp range. I want maximum range as I don't want to stop and charge at all if I don't have to.
Second Morgan has jumped on the Energica band wagon and won't admit their shortcomings while taking shots at other brands for similar or the same issues. Energica makes a nice bike and the CCS charging is great if you live where there are a lot of those stations and you don't mind that it works out to costing more than gas to go the same distance. But they aren't perfect bikes and what Damon is claiming right now addresses some of Energicas short falls.
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Jaime C, test ride one.
We may never really know what went wrong at Lightning. I give them full credit for winning Pike's Peak at a time when electric motorcycles were a joke when it came to performance, but the business side was too much for them I guess.
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Damon has a smaller-capacity battery than the Energica+, but they're able to go twice as far on a charge, and it somehow weighs 70kg less (with all the extra fancy transformer ergonomics).
Call me skeptical but that's quite a stretch.
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True I've only ridden 2. I got 100 miles out of the 13KWh Energica (before it broke down) and was on target for 80 from the Zero but as they weren't my bikes I was riding them very cautiously.
I'm going with the actual realistic figures achieved by the UK journos that have had these bikes on long-term test. They're not like US journalists.
Cas :)
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Second Morgan has jumped on the Energica band wagon and won't admit their shortcomings while taking shots at other brands for similar or the same issues.
say what now?
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Damon has a smaller-capacity battery than the Energica+, but they're able to go twice as far on a charge, and it somehow weighs 70kg less (with all the extra fancy transformer ergonomics).
Call me skeptical but that's quite a stretch.
From the Ego+ range numbers posted above
249miles city, 143 mixed, and 112 highway
Damon's claimed range numbers (Hypersport)
300 city, 200 mixed, 160 highway.
So not claiming double just more.
The weight savings comes from the fact the battery box is the frame and higher voltage is smaller wiring and cables plus smaller but faster motor like the Lucid over the old Tesla motor.
I wish you could ride one but you'd have to fly to CA to do it.
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Second Morgan has jumped on the Energica band wagon and won't admit their shortcomings while taking shots at other brands for similar or the same issues.
say what now?
"What now"
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OH! My bad. I didn't realize they updated their claims. It used to be "200 miles at highway speed" ;D
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To achieve that they simply need a 40KWh battery. Simples.
Cas :)
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Sam I also want to say welcome to the Damon section. I think this is your first time here.
I gave you a shout out in the Job opening thread for an opening they have that you would be great for but you'd have to either go to VC or convince them to send a bike to NZ.
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Sam I also want to say welcome to the Damon section. I think this is your first time here.
I gave you a shout out in the Job opening thread for an opening they have that you would be great for but you'd have to either go to VC or convince them to send a bike to NZ.
Thanks! Yeah this whole global situation is screwing up my test riding ability, but I'd love to see a Damon in real life. My biggest reason for being skeptical is that they posted the specs before building anything. They said it would have 200hp before getting Mission's motor tech. They said it would be 200kg before even designing the "Hyperdrive" battery-frame-motor they have now. And the first prototypes were built on R1 frames, so everything was/is hypothetical. Hyper-thetical? ;D
Damon skipped the step of building a bike to prove what it can do. Even Mission took their ONLY bike out to win races and let Jay Leno ride it. I hope Damon eventually does the same. Right now we can just speculate on what it can do, and the numbers don't add up.
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This is probably why we need some straight up miles-at-speed like Zero has on their specs page.
-Crissa
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Sam I fully understand cautious skepticism.
They seem to really be following the Tesla business plan with the concept of put $300k into R&D and not advertising. So they are slowly releasing details keeping a buzz going. Did you see the picture of Jay standing beside the Hypersport and THE Mission behind him?
I guess I can say they will be putting out new videos pretty soon but haven't given a release date yet.
I'll post a link when they do though. :)
Crissa I'll say from all the interviews I've watched the bike is still getting adjustments and some compromises will likely be made here and there before the final delivery bikes are ready to go. I think they dropped the moving windscreen already and that left side grip lever isn't there anymore either.
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All I can say is that there is a huge difference between developing a prototype electric motorcycle and getting a vehicle approved by government regulatory agencies, creating an operating factory with a volume production line, arranging contracts with parts manufacturers for chassis and power train assemblies, establishing a dealer, distribution and service network and training technicians to work on the bikes. If you ask me, those tasks are much harder than designing an electric motorcycle from scratch and are the walls that most brands hit in the end before they ever make it in the consumer market. (Just check out the brands on this forum which are no longer around.) It is a tough life out there in the electric motorcycle market - especially when that market really sucks when it comes to volume sales and actually making a profit. ;)
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Richard no new business is easy for sure. Remember (at least for now) there will be no dealer network, just like Tesla. They will have service center agreements just like Tesla. They will use 2170 cells for their battery, umm just like Tesla. They will use the ride data linked into the cloud to improve crash probability again just like Tesla.
From the interviews I've watched they are hinting that if a dealer works on any current manufacturers electric motorcycle then they can be setup to work on a Damon as well. Maybe even electric automotive service centers? Just a guess.
There is a saying in business from Daymond John which is "pioneers get slaughtered while settlers prosper" it means let someone else prove something works and then come in and don't make the same mistakes they did.
Get in early but not first.
Damon intends to make much more then just a sport bike and even more than just two wheeled motorcycles so their appeal should be broader.
I hope you sign up for a test ride as they will surely come to CA first. Even if that style isn't for you it would be fun to ride.
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Is there really enough information to say it would go 200 mph at the 16,000 max motor rpm. Like the reduction gear teeth count the sprocket tooth count and the driven tire size?
I figured earlier at least 1000 cells needed, he got 1300 or so.
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LOL, well Fran K do you feel that the ability to go 200MPH or not would be a deal breaker for ya?
When I find out I'll let you know. ;)
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I was always impressed the Alta got as far down the road as they did before the financial bottom dropped out of their company. I assume that Damon will not be heading to H-D for a financial bailout if they run low on cash. ::)
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I posted the interview Derek Dorresteyn (Co-Founder of Alta) gave where he talked about Alta.
He said it went like this:
Alta had backers and was going along just fine. HD came and said lets make Electric bikes but just us. Then Alta cut ties with their backers with the expectation of being with HD. He said later HD came in and made a low ball offer for Alta that they refused but by that point their old backers had moved on so they went out of business.
He also said in that interview that when Jay came to him about joining Damon, Derek felt he had unfinished business in the electric motorcycle world.
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Then Alta cut ties with their backers with the expectation of being with HD.
Really?? Such greed and hubris.
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Then Alta cut ties with their backers with the expectation of being with HD.
Really?? Such greed and hubris.
Not really, investor deals are often exclusive in some way.
-Crissa
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What do you call solid vapor?
I guess you just call it fast.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CLA0ruAHOWQ/
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What do you call solid vapor?
I guess you just call it fast.
It appears to be some sort of yellow motorcycle.
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Is Damon planning on having stores like Tesla has where potential buyers can go for test rides or to just physically check out the bikes? Just curious.
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Not at this time.
You can go to Damon.com make an account and request a test ride invitation and they will email you when they are coming to your area.
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What do you call solid vapor?
I guess you just call it fast.
It appears to be some sort of yellow motorcycle.
Oh no not yellow. That is Damon Gold. ;)
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Damon has a smaller-capacity battery than the Energica+, but they're able to go twice as far on a charge, and it somehow weighs 70kg less (with all the extra fancy transformer ergonomics).
Call me skeptical but that's quite a stretch.
Here’s a really interesting interview with Guru engineer Sandy Munro, talking about batteries and range:
https://youtu.be/cXTSfewAWoA
Hope you all enjoy it!
Cheers :)
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The fact that he lists motor inefficiencies before aero is laughable. Look, I suppose for cars it's not as bad as it is for bikes but motorcycle aero is a joke and a half.
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The fact that he lists motor inefficiencies before aero is laughable. Look, I suppose for cars it's not as bad as it is for bikes but motorcycle aero is a joke and a half.
Not so bad if you are in to "dust bin" fairings. ;)
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Munro is maybe not so far off the ball as he sounds. Car aero is all within a few % of each other for typically shaped vehicles, and I think the point he's making is that when the aero only accounts for a few %, then the other factors that are easily dealt with using plain engineering under the bodywork, such as reducing cable length, reducing the number of connectors, precision machining the motor, etc, they are now apparently accounting for an actual bigger difference than air resistance. No figures to back it up cited but I suspect he's on to something. There has to be a reason the Model 3 does so much better on range than, well, any of its competitors, per nominal kWh in the battery pack.
The astonishing efficiency of my SR/F is a testimony to the basic ideas he's outlined: I get, I think, 4x the mileage from the same energy as a Model 3, despite the SR/F flying through the air in exactly the same way bricks don't. Only one motor, a single belt, barely any voltage loss through lengthy cables, few connectors, great motor, tiny friction from wheels, and 1/7th the weight or so - despite having about 3x the drag coefficient. When we get over 70mph the tables are rapidly turned.
Cas :)
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Your range could easily be doubled or more with aero. But yeah let's focus on making the cables going to the motor an inch shorter.
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Is the OP associated with Vetter Fairings?
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That'd be my dad, yes.
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Your range could easily be doubled or more with aero. But yeah let's focus on making the cables going to the motor an inch shorter.
You are right, yes, especially with motorcycles but I think Munro is just talking about cars, and they're all in the Cd 0.3 sort of range with not a great deal of variation, and it's really not easy to make them much slippier without them becoming so hideous or outlandish they won't sell, so he's focused on the other aspects where they're just pissing electrons away in the powertrain. Not to mention that drag is far less relevant under 50mph and barely worth mentioning under 30mph and that's where a lot of cars spend a lot of time, so wasting power there is even more of a shame.
Cas :)
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America has a highway culture. I almost never go 30 on my bike, anywhere.
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Not even in towns and traffic?
Cas :)
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I rarely go over 40.
But you know, mountains and all.
-Crissa
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The fact that he lists motor inefficiencies before aero is laughable. Look, I suppose for cars it's not as bad as it is for bikes but motorcycle aero is a joke and a half.
Morgan he literally says areo first at the 2:33 mark.
The question was asked which is more important to range a bigger battery or efficiencies? He said aero, efficiencies (drive train) and weight plus cable length and too many connectors all bleed power.
Luckily with Damon, it's sleek, has a super high end drive train (Mission accomplished) low weight (looks like under 450lbs) and with all components housed in the revolutionary Hyperdrive, the connections couldn't be shorter.
It also has a 21kWh battery back. But they told you that already on FB. :)
Embrace the greatness. 8)
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Well, it has been said before, but I'll embrace it when it actually exists...
Cas :)
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Remember before you can embrace something you must first uncross and open your arms, and in this case mind, to enjoy what is good.
I still feel that the time table for production will likely be affected by Covid same as so many other businesses, but they are steadily improving and moving forward.
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Remember before you can embrace something you must first uncross and open your arms, and in this case mind, to enjoy what is good.
"An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded." -Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War
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“Victory comes from finding opportunities in problems.” – Sun Tzu
Problems like: Slow weak bikes. Short ranged bikes. Slow charging bikes. Air resisting bikes. Far too heavy bikes.
Riders too tucked and uncomfortable. Riders unaware of dangers where they can not see.
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you took a games workshop quote seriously
awesome.
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"That'd be my dad, yes."
Bruce or Craig?
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"That'd be my dad, yes."
Bruce or Craig?
His dad is Craig Vetter.
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you took a games workshop quote seriously
awesome.
I get the light hearted nature of a Warhammer quote.
I took it as an opportunity to counter with a real quote that had real meaning and an explanation of their motivation.
IOW the idea that they can make something better than what is out there.
I haven't given up on your enlightenment potential. (smirk emoji)
The fact you still seek answers from the church of Facebook shows me you are not just a lost lamb.
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The fact you still seek answers from the church of Facebook shows me you are not just a lost lamb.
(https://i.imgur.com/yCUUH1M.jpg)
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Energica makes a nice bike and the CCS charging is great if you live where there are a lot of those stations and you don't mind that it works out to costing more than gas to go the same distance. But they aren't perfect bikes and what Damon is claiming right now addresses some of Energicas short falls.
and
“Victory comes from finding opportunities in problems.” – Sun Tzu
"Victory comes from selling a working product." - Me
Energica 1
Damon 0
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There you go Morgan!
Be a Prophet and show the future!
Richtea don't confuse firing the first shot with winning the war. ;)
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Damon hasn't said they were shipping bikes yet.
So why would you compare a potential bike to an existing one? Next years' model is always better (especially when it hasn't arrived yet). I don't see the point of comparing them or even insulting them until there's a product you can buy.
-Crissa
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No there haven't been any Damon's shipped at this point.
They do have a toy hauler ready to tour around and put on test ride events. The Canada US boarder needs to be open and not crazy packed and of course the Delta Covid strain could shut down those types of gatherings if it hits a serge.
The time goal for 2021 is to ship out the 26 Founder's Edition bikes. Those all had reserve deposits down in the 4 days Damon was at CES.
They are the $40k top of the line bikes.
As for why compare them, it's a forum, that's what people should do.
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But for now, I'd say that we need to see the bikes get reviewed to compare them.
Until then, comparisons are meaningless. We can just ooh and ahh at the technology, and wonder what shortcuts they're taking. We know that Energica seems to have overbuilt their bikes to a degree that each iteration is lighter than the last. And they already deliver a 200 mile bike with a 21kWh battery.
-Crissa
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I keep thinking about Mission Motorcycles and Lightning. So I also will wait until Damon bikes arrive on a showroom floor near me before commenting on the company's future. There is still a lot of work to be done between hand building a pre-production vehicle and mass producing and selling them on the consumer retail market.
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For over a year now Canada has basically been in lock down.
In my own opinion I think it will be hard for Damon to keep their timeline goals with that level of challenge, but we'll see.
The thing I keep pointing out, that keeps being ignored because these bikes aren't in customers hands yet, is the fact that the specs are all what people have longed for and said they wished they could get.
There is a company that has listened and wants to make that bike but it's being met with...almost a fear that it will be made, by some.
I guess people don't want to think they made a bad choice and don't want there to be a better product then the one they bought.
Or maybe shame of shames getting behind it and if it doesn't make it and they could be (gasp) wrong.
I'm willing to admit these specs are what I WANT.
If Damon fails to make it as a company or the bike comes up short, I still want those specs.
If it makes Zero wake up and make some hard choices and big improvements, great.
In 3 model years Energica has made 3 big improvements in their bikes, but if Damon delivers it's specs and price then Energica loses in every meaningful category. Plus Damon offers features at no extra cost that Energica doesn't even have.
Competition is a good thing.
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Of course these are the specs people want. But those of us who have done some math on it realize what they're promising isn't feasible at this time. Somehow you've twisted that into a persecution complex and responded by sticking your fingers in your ears and going "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU".
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Morgan you based your math on the factors that you know. They told you the bike has a 21 kWh battery. Correcting your math, with their inside knowledge.
When Richard was charging that Strike at 30kw you were shocked and didn't know what to say. If he had just TOLD you it could do that you would have called BS on him all day.
Can you LA LA LA LA admit you just might be wrong?
I fully admit what Damon is trying to do is very hard and there is no guarantee they will be able to succeed. That's why I haven't encouraged anyone to put a deposit down, and likely won't until I ride one.
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Morgan you based your math on the factors that you know. They told you the bike has a 21 kWh battery. Correcting your math, with their inside knowledge.
They keep revising their statements. I've heard them say 20, 19.2, and 21kWh. I believe none of it.
When Richard was charging that Strike at 30kw you were shocked and didn't know what to say. If he had just TOLD you it could do that you would have called BS on him all day.
Shocked? What in the world are you talking about. I have plenty to say about it.
Can you LA LA LA LA admit you just might be wrong?
Of course there's the possibility that I'm wrong. I'm surprisingly reasonable most of the time. Hell, if they deliver on all their promises I will be legit shocked and look like an idiot, and deservedly so. On the other hand, if this goes the way I suspect, will you be able to own up to your side of it? Or will you retreat and say, "well you don't have to rub it in, jerk."
I'm prepared to eat my words. Are you?
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Hell I'll make a whole apology thread and might include a picture of a new Energica that I could pick up.
But I truly think they have too good of a team to not at least make a bike that is very very close to their claims.
Now I'm 99% sure they will have their first test ride events in CA. You gave Richard a fair enough chance to prove himself why not sign up for a test ride and see how it goes.
You won't go 200 miles and you won't go 200MPH but you should see how it feels and try the warning signals and shift riding position adjustments.
You get to ride a motorcycle for free. Are you up for it? And would you behave nicely and give it a fair chance?
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Are you up for it? And would you behave nicely and give it a fair chance?
Sure. If I can be civil around Lightning I don't see any reason I couldn't do the same for Damon.
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Great.
And if you want to buy one I have a referral code you can use. ;)
All kidding aside if they email you that they are coming to your area post it and of course get some video.
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The time goal for 2021 is to ship out the 26 Founder's Edition bikes. Those all had reserve deposits down in the 4 days Damon was at CES.
They are the $40k top of the line bikes.
It's 2022 now for their 25 Founder's Edition
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Well I thought they would be saying either there will be a delay or start showing them off. Maybe early spring.