ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Pics and Vids => Topic started by: MVetter on February 14, 2021, 11:14:49 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0VC5BFbz_w
I think this is a pretty good representation of real-world riding. I wish they'd had an SR/S as well, though. Maybe in a future video.
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So a few things come to mind.
Did the Zero have the range fix software installed? Is it slowing down due to a miscalculation of SOC like you had on the SRF?
I want to make sure those are Energica + models which they are listed as.
If that's the case then a little over 100 miles for a 21kWh battery pack (in the cold) for mixed riding?
Also the same range for an Ego sport bike and Ribella naked? No aerodynamic penalty?
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Really interesting video, happy they were able to get all the major EV players together.
I want to make sure those are Energica + models which they are listed as.
Yep can confirm, those are the + version bikes.
Also the same range for an Ego sport bike and Ribella naked? No aerodynamic penalty?
Rider input would have more of an effect on range vs wind drag at the speeds they were riding. At higher speeds the EGO would have an advantage (somewhere in the 5-10% range?).
If that's the case then a little over 100 miles for a 21kWh battery pack (in the cold) for mixed riding?
The rider has so much to do with a bikes range. The Livewire produces 78kW compared to the Energica 107kW, a twist of the wrist will consume more watts on the Energica.
Maintaining a constant speed up to ~55 mph on flat ground requires very little energy. You are mostly fighting rolling resistance and a little bit of wind drag. It's the acceleration that eats energy... Thanks Newton
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On top of that, the SR/F did go ~85 miles on mixed roads which seems to be what the bike does with good firmware. When v18 was plaguing our bike we couldn't get more than 50 out of it at a time.
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Thanks for the reply Demoni.
My take form the video is they were claiming to be going over a mixed route with highways and back roads. I would expect the bikes to be closer to their 143 mixed range projection.
I assume from the footage all four bikes pretty much stayed together so unless they were slingshotting (dropping back and shooting forward). The only differential factor should have been the bike + rider weight, and bike + rider wind resistance.
The Energicas should have blown both the Zero and Livewire out of the water with about 40-50% more battery capacity.
Instead they got about 20-10% more range under the same or very similar conditions.
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Since this is purely a range comparison battle, wonder how the SR/S with a power tank would do against all these, esp against the Ego+ as both are more aerodynamic compared to the other bikes and would have comparable battery capacities.
@mvetter anyone in the real world have reliable range numbers with a PT (and the latest firmware which seemingly fixes the SOC issues)?
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I still don't have data on Power Tanks. Really wish I did. I know a couple of SR/F owners with Power Tanks but not well enough to request their bikes and do testing.
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Acceleration I think is a bit of a red herring - we spend very little time accelerating on the road, and much less of that time actually accelerating hard at all (I recall seeing a datalog of someone on a track riding a 600 as fast as they dared in one of the rags and it turns out they spend something like 3% of the track wide open) - so the weight won't have a lot to do with the range, it'll be all about speed, and despite the Ego's fairings, it's unlikely to have any "significant" effect on anything remotely like legal road speed as bikes are all absolutely terrible with drag.
I reckon the formula generally still stands - 10KWh in = 50 miles out - give or take a little. All the other serious reviews of the SR/F reckon on 70 miles of range before trouble, so I would expect pretty much the calculated extra range from the Power Tank assuming it's not lying about its capacity, so 3.6KWh would give about 18 miles of range.
The Energicas are surprisingly short range for their stated capacity, which means either their motors/transmission are way less efficient, they have terrible drag, they're bullshitting about the actual capacity, or the software is very conservative, or likely, some combination of all of the above. The H-D seems to manage what other reviews say it will manage and it's in proportion to its capacity as expected. They all appear to do exceptionally well ridden slowly, but nobody rides like that in the real world, eh?
Cas :)
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Since this is purely a range comparison battle, wonder how the SR/S with a power tank would do against all these, esp against the Ego+ as both are more aerodynamic compared to the other bikes and would have comparable battery capacities.
@mvetter anyone in the real world have reliable range numbers with a PT (and the latest firmware which seemingly fixes the SOC issues)?
You may have read my comments before but when my 2018 Zero S with a Power Tank was new, I managed a 150-mile ride without recharging, which included two long of climbs and descents in the Santa Cruz Mountains and then a run back home along the coast highway. I kept my climbing speeds to around 30-35 mph and on my ride along the coast, battling a headwind, I tried to maintain 50 mph. Of course that was with brand new batteries, which were fully charged and balanced before I left home. :)
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No one else wants to ride like a nun though Richard :P
Cas :)
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Cas which electric motorcycle do you own? I forget. I know you were complaining that some bikes had too much power and it was so stupid to go that fast. Now your against going slower too?
I had wanted this basic range test done with long term electric motorcycle riders so they wouldn't be so giggly about the torque. That could do 50mph and some 35-40mph back roads and show what they can actually do. Spring or summer conditions as well to get the best out of the batteries.
One of the most over looked positives about the electric drive train is how it can be two bikes in one. A slow relaxing sight seeing touring bike, then just swap modes and twist and gone.
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I reckon the formula generally still stands - 10KWh in = 50 miles out - give or take a little. All the other serious reviews of the SR/F reckon on 70 miles of range before trouble, so I would expect pretty much the calculated extra range from the Power Tank assuming it's not lying about its capacity, so 3.6KWh would give about 18 miles of range.
At what speed? I've never actually used the trip counter to see how much range I get (or even run the battery flat) but I've never managed to get the range estimation on the dash of my 7.2 down to anywhere near 36 miles, the closest I think was about 45 miles going full throttle at 86mph for a few minutes. I suppose if I did it now, during Winter, it might get that low but that's going to be the worst case scenario.
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Cas which electric motorcycle do you own? I forget. I know you were complaining that some bikes had too much power and it was so stupid to go that fast. Now your against going slower too?
I had wanted this basic range test done with long term electric motorcycle riders so they wouldn't be so giggly about the torque. That could do 50mph and some 35-40mph back roads and show what they can actually do. Spring or summer conditions as well to get the best out of the batteries.
One of the most over looked positives about the electric drive train is how it can be two bikes in one. A slow relaxing sight seeing touring bike, then just swap modes and twist and gone.
Bang to rights, I don't have one, but only because they're daft money and sadly I've still got more sense than money after all these years. I'm sat waiting for the first SR/Fs to get under £10k.
Normal riding here in the UK is what you might do if you were a member of RoSPA or practising Roadcraft, that is, generally sharp, confident and full use of the available power to travel at the fastest prudent speed for the road and conditions, and then maybe a bit more when nobody's judging. It's not hanging about, but it's not sticking two fingers up at the law; it's not dawdling either. We euphemistically call it "making progress" in the UK but really it's what most of us just call "normal riding".
UK journos tout 70 miles out of the SR/F riding like this, and about the same or a bit more from the Livewire.
Cas :)
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Here's my take on it, expounding from what Chris said as this is something I've observed as well. Yes, once you get going, the weight of the bikes matters less. HOWEVER. With the Ribelle and the Ego+ you literally have a.) the most power and b.) the heaviest bike. This means when you punch it, and you're going to because it's way too much fun not to punch it, it will start gobbling power at an unholy rate. I have a 2018 SS9 and if I open the throttle uphill I will easily pull over 1000Wh/mi. Yes, 1kWh/mi instead of the usual 140 or so we all usually see on regular riding.
The SR/F and the LiveWire are lighter and have less power, so even when you do punch it, and they respond beautifully, it's not the absurd instantaneous consumption of the Energica bikes. I found myself punching my SS9 throttle a lot more than I ever did with my SR because the power difference just was, and continues to be, so exhilarating.
Again, I think every bike in this video performed well, and I think Zero fans should be pleased with the 85 miles of range shown. Now I want to see an SR/S join in. The Southern California group of electric riders are actually planning a run from Anaheim --> Reno on May 14th. I know there will be a bunch of Energicas and LiveWires; I'd be thrilled to see some SR/F and SR/S owners take the challenge as well.
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No one else wants to ride like a nun though Richard :P
Cas :)
All I ever want to do is to get to my destination without having to push my bike. I am never in any hurry. To me motorcycles are just transportation that are fun to ride at any speed. :)
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Of course, the older I get, the more I do the same... I've actually been looking at things like Super Socos and whatnot. And my favourite ever adventure bike series is c90 adventures...
Cas :)
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All I ever want to do is to get to my destination without having to push my bike. I am never in any hurry. To me motorcycles are just transportation that are fun to ride at any speed. :)
AMEN!! I outgrew the need to be "the fastest kid on the block" DECADES ago.
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They always end up comparing a base model Zero to a plus model Energica!
Still, they said that the Zero felt like it weighed more. That's not the first time I've heard that. I wonder why?
-Crissa
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Here's my take on it, expounding from what Chris said as this is something I've observed as well. Yes, once you get going, the weight of the bikes matters less. HOWEVER. With the Ribelle and the Ego+ you literally have a.) the most power and b.) the heaviest bike. This means when you punch it, and you're going to because it's way too much fun not to punch it, it will start gobbling power at an unholy rate. I have a 2018 SS9 and if I open the throttle uphill I will easily pull over 1000Wh/mi. Yes, 1kWh/mi instead of the usual 140 or so we all usually see on regular riding.
The SR/F and the LiveWire are lighter and have less power, so even when you do punch it, and they respond beautifully, it's not the absurd instantaneous consumption of the Energica bikes. I found myself punching my SS9 throttle a lot more than I ever did with my SR because the power difference just was, and continues to be, so exhilarating.
Again, I think every bike in this video performed well, and I think Zero fans should be pleased with the 85 miles of range shown. Now I want to see an SR/S join in. The Southern California group of electric riders are actually planning a run from Anaheim --> Reno on May 14th. I know there will be a bunch of Energicas and LiveWires; I'd be thrilled to see some SR/F and SR/S owners take the challenge as well.
That would be a great real world testing right there! I guess for a proper road trip, range + charging times would both come into picture :)
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They always end up comparing a base model Zero to a plus model Energica!
Still, they said that the Zero felt like it weighed more. That's not the first time I've heard that. I wonder why?
-Crissa
Funny thing is the SR/F is the lightest at 220kg and the Live Wire weighs 249kg and not 210kg as they thought. Don't know the exact weights of the specific Energicas but even the lightest model is like 258kg.
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They always end up comparing a base model Zero to a plus model Energica!
Still, they said that the Zero felt like it weighed more. That's not the first time I've heard that. I wonder why?
-Crissa
Funny thing is the SR/F is the lightest at 220kg and the Live Wire weighs 249kg and not 210kg as they thought. Don't know the exact weights of the specific Energicas but even the lightest model is like 258kg.
I have weighed my 2018 Zero S with PT and it weighs 205kg.
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They always end up comparing a base model Zero to a plus model Energica!
Still, they said that the Zero felt like it weighed more. That's not the first time I've heard that. I wonder why?
-Crissa
Funny thing is the SR/F is the lightest at 220kg and the Live Wire weighs 249kg and not 210kg as they thought. Don't know the exact weights of the specific Energicas but even the lightest model is like 258kg.
I have weighed my 2018 Zero S with PT and it weighs 205kg.
Sounds about right, Zero say the SR with PT is 208kg and that extra weight is probably in the motor and controller.
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I have weighed my 2018 Zero S with PT and it weighs 205kg.
Sounds about right, Zero say the SR with PT is 208kg and that extra weight is probably in the motor and controller.
Also note that Richard has the older 13kWh pack. So the difference in weight could be more than the motor+controller.
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The SR/F felt surprisingly light to me (compared to the SS9), which got me thinking there was headroom for another 30kg of batteries and a DCFC module before anyone had too much cause to complain. It'd still be lighter than my scooter.
Cas :)
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The SR/F felt surprisingly light to me (compared to the SS9), which got me thinking there was headroom for another 30kg of batteries and a DCFC module before anyone had too much cause to complain. It'd still be lighter than my scooter.
Cas :)
I test rode a SR/F before buying the SS9 and while the SR/F was lighter, it was also more top heavy. Not sure it it had the additional chargers in the tank area though..
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The SR/F felt surprisingly light to me (compared to the SS9), which got me thinking there was headroom for another 30kg of batteries and a DCFC module before anyone had too much cause to complain. It'd still be lighter than my scooter.
Cas :)
I test rode a SR/F before buying the SS9 and while the SR/F was lighter, it was also more top heavy. Not sure it it had the additional chargers in the tank area though..
That is a good point. There is no question that the 42 pound Power Tank makes the Zero feel top heavy. You really feel its weight when tossing the bike around sharp S-curves and especially when it falls over and you have to pick it up. :'(
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...and a DCFC module ...
A what?
-Crissa
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The small but significant widget that would allow DC fast charging via CCS, Zero motorcycles' Achilles heel.
Cas :)
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The voltage is too low.
CCS will require a complete redesign.
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I know, but them's the breaks.
Cas :)
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It's not really a widget, DC charging doesn't require rectifiers, as that's all in the station. DC charging solves the problem of heavy AC charging units by taking it off the bike.
-Crissa
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I think he's talking about a step down buck converter. I would imagine it has been discussed on here before and there are good reasons why it's not done, my guess would be they're not efficient enough and you'd end up dumping kilowatts of heat.
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Too bad rearranging the cell order from parallel to series was patented recently.
-Crissa
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Too bad rearranging the cell order from parallel to series was patented recently.
-Crissa
You're talking about GM's Ultium's batteries, right? Doesn't seem fair that they'd have a lock on that, but whatever.
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It's not done for the same reason but I wonder whether Dewalt's Flexvolt batteries would count as precedent and invalidate that patent.
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It's not done for the same reason but I wonder whether Dewalt's Flexvolt batteries would count as precedent and invalidate that patent.
I don't think the patent is valid, since it should be an obvious use but... there it is.
And it was Rivian that patented it. It's not the Ultium.
-Crissa
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Wasn't that patent about using software & hardware to dynamically reconfigure the battery though?
I was just rather hoping Zero would change their approach and design and reconfigure things into a high-voltage arrangement so they could follow the rest of the EV industry and take advantage of DCFC. But I suppose their motor is designed for massive amps and no gearing and they're so far up that road they won't be turning around any time soon.
Cas :)
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Wasn't that patent about using software & hardware to dynamically reconfigure the battery though?
I was just rather hoping Zero would change their approach and design and reconfigure things into a high-voltage arrangement so they could follow the rest of the EV industry and take advantage of DCFC. But I suppose their motor is designed for massive amps and no gearing and they're so far up that road they won't be turning around any time soon.
Cas :)
My recollection is that when Zero's original motor was designed as first used in the 2013 models, it was done so with the help of a $900K government "incentive" grant. I imagine that the IPM motor cost a lot less to make as it seems to use many of the same major parts of the original motor. In any case it appears that Zero is not interested in buying an off-the-shelf high voltage motor and is really only interested in using their own dedicated motor, for whatever corporate reason. As long as it costs big bucks to design and manufacturer a specialized Zero-only motor and using only their own motor is the direction that their board wants to go, I am not looking forward to any big changes to their voltage plans. ???
Of course I have always thought that eventually, if electric motorcycle sales ever increase to the point where the major motorcycle manufacturers finally decide to jump into the market, Zero would be brought out by one of the majors like Suzuki instead of them going to the trouble and effort to set up their own EV division. (Sort of like Polaris buying out Brammo. :( )If that was to happen then things would likely finally change in a big way - eventually. ;) If only I can live that long. ;)
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Of course I have always thought that eventually, if electric motorcycle sales ever increase to the point where the major motorcycle manufacturers finally decide to jump into the market, Zero would be brought out by one of the majors like Suzuki instead of them going to the trouble and effort to set up their own EV division. (Sort of like Polaris buying out Brammo.
Not me. Look at how it all turned out for Brammo! Polaris is now working with Zero for electric technology, remember?
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And Zero is working on new motors, remember the partnership with Exro?
-Crissa
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Was it a new motor? I was under the impression it was a new controller that simulated a mechanical transmission in electronics...?
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It's a new motor that has more than one set of windings, allowing it to act like different motors.
-Crissa
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Ah. Well, if it's a new motor, maybe they can make it a 300V motor and start a redesign. I just hope they don't give up the simplicity of air cooling. The Zero is still the easiest bike to maintain out of all of the ones in that test because of its air-cooled motor.
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Higher voltage should run cooler.
But thermal management doesn't need to be heavy. It would be nice to take heat from the motor to the battery on cold days or heat from the battery to the fins while DC charging... Or heat from the motor to the fins on a hot day.
I'd rather use weight for thermal management than an AC charger ^-^
-Crissa