ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: Hansi on January 15, 2021, 06:54:48 AM
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https://sondorsx.com/
What do you think?
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I would like to try it out and see what no knee contact is like.
72 volt hub motor.
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I'm really happy to see Sondors go for this low-mid range price with these specs. This is a big gap in the market that needs to be filled. I think for 5k, the 4kwh battery, 14kw peak motor, 80mph top speed, are all good specs for the price. Though notably their specs page says 8kwh nominal 14.6kwh peak, should just be kw.
The design itself is pretty quirky though.
Cutout where your knees would go. For super casual city riding it's probably not a big deal, but it does immediately jump out and gives me the assumption that the designer doesn't actually ride. Notably Sondors started as a budget ebike kickstarter.
But it's also just a waste of space. Tank storage in a zero or NC700x etc is incredibly useful but the sondors decided to look futuristic instead of being functional. At least it does help keep weight down. If I owned one I'd probably add a bunch of loops to throw a cargo net on each side. Then at least you could stuff a couple small grocery bags in there.
The integrated turn signals are not street legal in the US, nor is the tail tidy. No reflectors. If the bike is to be fully street legal then this cannot be the final design.
Seat looks thin. Rides would presumably be so short that this isn't a big deal, but I'd still prefer a cushier seat.
LCD looks like it's placed way too low and facing straight up? Really wonder how readable it will be.
I like the wireless phone charger built into the tank area.
No passenger pegs.
No mention of regen of any kind.
ABS option would have been nice.
Level 2 charging with an "accessory" at a later date. No details as to what that accessory will be like or charging speeds.
I guess it's a backpack bike because it seems very that frame supports any kind of top or side cases.
Overall seems like a swing and a miss, but it's at least interesting. Sondors has delivered on their ebikes, but a moto like this is a bigger challenge. We'll see if they hit that Q4 2021 goal, but until then this is another concept accepting pre-orders.
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It looks incredible. Great price too. I see a big hole that looks ripe for battery expansion. (Riding without knees is in fact perfectly fine - just ask any scooter rider, eg, me)
Cas :)
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I would like to try it out and see what no knee contact is like.
Ride a scooter. ;)
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Just a thought, but it should be a nit for someone (even the OEM itself) could easily fit a removable storage compartment in that open space in the frame. Most Maxi-scooters have bags that fits in that space so why not this?
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Here is a video review of the Sondors Metacycle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BG8fFma6nM&feature=emb_title
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I spent a while on various articles on the web and the Sondors site.
It is a $100 deposit, then monthly payments of $700, then the shipping fee which I think comes later. So it is a pay in full perhaps before even production.
I looked at the rear suspention pretty hard. At least with the dirt bikes when the dual shock set up was at the end the top and bottom of the shock were equal distance from the swingarm pivot. The Ktm mono shock isn't quite that way. This set up is the top mount way farther from the pivot than the bottom mount. I can see it has a progressive spring but still... Exactly how much travel the rear wheel would have at the point the rubber bumper on the shock hits and when it presumably compresses seems inconsistant looking at various pictures. Strangely it seems better pictures released to the moto journalists than I found on their site.
Ever ride in the rain?
A hub motor and various off the shelf components might make marketing a bike like this or the BSA one discussed lately a coming theme.
Can a front vs rear weight distribution be achieved in the ideal range?
They state it is not for enthusiasts or racers or for some other description I froget.
As an aside, How do you tell if an entity such as this, one taking deposits has actually passed whatever is needed to issue a certificate of origion?
Edit: discussing no linkage rear suspention, discussing certificate of origion that is for highway use Perhaps homolgomation is an applicable word.
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I looked at the rear suspention pretty hard. At least with the dirt bikes when the dual shock set up was at the end the top and bottom of the shock were equal distance from the swingarm pivot. The Ktm mono shock isn't quite that way. This set up is the top mount way farther from the pivot than the bottom mount. I can see it has a progressive spring but still... Exactly how much travel the rear wheel would have at the point the rubber bumper on the shock hits and when it presumably compresses seems inconsistant looking at various pictures. Strangely it seems better pictures released to the moto journalists than I found on their site.
Most road motorcycles, even those without a linkage, don't have an equal distance from the swingarm pivot to both ends of the shock, I didn't see anything to worry about.
Ever ride in the rain?
Yeah - that's going to be an issue...... (without some reworking)
A hub motor and various off the shelf components might make marketing a bike like this or the BSA one discussed lately a coming theme.
I like the idea that you can replace the motor and the battery easily as technology improves their efficiencies: however - you'll need the manufacturers to actually offer those uprated elements, which will rely on them selling lot hotcakes.
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Sondors has a good track record with their ebikes, but wanting $700/mo for a pre-order before production has started or they've even gotten DOT approval is a huge red flag.
A deposit to hold your place in line is standard practice, a payment plan for a non-existent bike sounds like a scam.
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Yeah. I thought that went without saying. Monthlies without a delivery is not good.
-Crissa
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Sorry, but any company that reproduces the Reliant Robin's layout in their lineup - even in mirror-image - cannot expect to be taken seriously by the AngloSaxon consumer. Just sayin'...
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Sorry, but any company that reproduces the Reliant Robin's layout in their lineup - even in mirror-image -
If you think that a three-wheeler with two up front is remotely similar to a three wheeler with two in back, well... One drives like a sports car, the other... doesn't. At all.
-Crissa
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Sorry, but any company that reproduces the Reliant Robin's layout in their lineup - even in mirror-image -
If you think that a three-wheeler with two up front is remotely similar to a three wheeler with two in back, well... One drives like a sports car, the other... doesn't. At all.
-Crissa
Millions of people who drive Spyders, Rykers, T-Rexes and Slingshots would agree with that statement. :)
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A modest-power commuting-centered motorcycle seems to be a good thing, esp. at a decent price.
In (at least most of) the US this would require a full motorcycle license, right? The power/speed limits for mopeds are apparently way lower.
A couple of comments about the (partial) specs:
-- Curb weight of 200lbs / 91kg sounds low for something that's supposed to withstand 130mph; I'd expect more like 140-150kg. Unless it were made of titanium ;)
-- No mention of payload
-- 8kW motor . 14.5 KW sounds a bit high for peak, unless it's for a few seconds.
-- 80 mph sounds optimistic for a 8kW motor, esp. with no provision for aero. I'd believe 60-65, which is enough for most commuting use.
-- Ditto 80mi range implies 50Wh/mile; even at low speeds, that sounds too low compared to typical e-motorcycle values, unless it's at 25mph; it's much closer to the 10-20 Wh/mi that e-bicycles get.
The power rating means it's rideable in the EU on an A1 license, which is significant -- that can be obtained at age 16, and it's also easier to get than an A2 let alone a full A license.
As to the design:
-- That hole is begging for a rainproof plastic compartment, but even if they intended to make it an extra-cost option (e.g., available in multiple color choices) puzzlingly, there's no sign of mounting points.
-- The seat does not at all look ergonomic -- far too thin.
-- I don't see any turn signals in front; rear lights are Liliputian
-- No provision for saddlebags and/or a place to mount a tailbag (essentially a general-purpose rear carrier).
That's the clearest indication the designer doesn't ride -- s/he followed the silly "chopped rear end" fashion.
As to no provision for a passenger, that's not surprising -- it's far too small a frame & motor for that. A Honda Grom (curb weight 229lbs) has a 309lbs payload, whereas an average US adult is 198lbs... You couldn't carry two adults+protective gear anyway.
(I actually don't think most motorcycles should be allowed to carry passengers -- they're not really designed for it & it affects their handling too much, and even in those models that are designed for it, I'd make it a required to have a special license with extra training)
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-- Curb weight of 200lbs / 91kg sounds low for something that's supposed to withstand 130mph; I'd expect more like 140-150kg. Unless it were made of titanium ;)
Where did you get the 130mph from? It tops out at 80mph, that would be a bit sketchy on such a light bike but not ridiculous, and with the big hole and being a smaller bike side wind won't as big an issue.
-- No mention of payload
With it having no pillion or storage provisions I don't think they really need to state one. If someone is so heavy that payload capacity is something they need to check when buying a bike they shouldn't be riding a bike that weighs less than them and only has 14kW.
-- 8kW motor . 14.5 KW sounds a bit high for peak, unless it's for a few seconds.
8kW will be what it can sustain indefinitely without overheating and probably with a low SoC. The peak power will be with a fully charged battery and could be for 10 seconds or a few minutes, but whatever it is I don't think it's an unreasonable amount more than the sustained output. Essentially it's going to cruise at a steady speed like an 8kW bike but accelerate like a 14kW one (for example overtaking or getting up to speed, which only takes a few seconds).
-- 80 mph sounds optimistic for a 8kW motor, esp. with no provision for aero. I'd believe 60-65, which is enough for most commuting use.
Top speed will being with peak power. Zero actually does it better by giving both a max short period speed as well as a max sustained speed.
-- Ditto 80mi range implies 50Wh/mile; even at low speeds, that sounds too low compared to typical e-motorcycle values, unless it's at 25mph; it's much closer to the 10-20 Wh/mi that e-bicycles get.
Similar to the top speed the max range is going to be in the best case scenario, it's what all manufacturers do because they all want the best numbers. They don't say under what conditions it can do 80 miles so it's practically meaningless, instead we should just assume it will perform similarly to something like a 3.6kW/h FXS.
The power rating means it's rideable in the EU on an A1 license, which is significant -- that can be obtained at age 16, and it's also easier to get than an A2 let alone a full A license.
I'm very glad they've rated the continuous power output which is what electric bikes are rated for in the EU for licence restriction, I just hope that they've done it in a way which is adequate for the EU (such as using the right testing agency and testing under the right conditions).
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As for my opinion on the bike, I think it's great if they really can deliver it at that price. That will put it in line with the top end A1 class bikes (125cc) and should cruise at speeds you'd want to keep a 125 at while having better acceleration. The only additions I'd want to see are the choice of either a storage compartment or an extra battery where the hole is, and even with another 4kW/h it should still be cheaper than a 7.2kW/h Zero (although of course with less performance). Had this existed when I got my KTM Duke 125 I would have been very tempted to get this instead for just an extra £600 or so (perhaps even less with the government grant), and if they did an 8kW/h version where the extra 4kW/h could be added later on I might not have even wanted to get my Zero.
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OK my take on this.
First glance looked promising ( that happens so often).
ICE motored only need 10HP continuous to do over 100kph ( I have ad enough 100/125cc single fourstrokes to know that is definitely true), so if the 8kw is true that is over 10HP so it will definitely do over 100. When to take into account that the HP curve on those ICE motors has started to dip at over 100kph I am suggesting around 70MPH from an electric as the torque doesn't tail off. Remember that is unfaired. Fair this motorcycle and it will have a better top speed and range. One of the first things I would do.
It has a Hub motor. For me that is a turn off (no pun). That massive unsprung weight is an uncontrollable rear wheel waiting to happen when normal conditions are exceeded ( read accident). When you add the Emotorcycle complete lack of recognition of the development of rear suspension by fitting a single pivot rear end trying to control that much unsprung weight with a low mass sprung weight , you have serious handling issues.
The mid "gap" of the frame is a no issue for me as I would make a couple of carbonfibre panels to use as a storage space, that would act as a place to load you knees when cornering.
Having said all that, it IS a "supercommuter" bracket bike that I have been searching for at a " supposed" price that would make it a viable alternative to an ICE bike.
The rear lack of current design ( sorry again) rear end and the massive insprung weight there would be the spoiler for me. I am, first and formost, convinced that the order of priority for a supercommuter is tyres, brakes, suspension, weight and finally motor ( speed and range). That would help keep you alive on what is still a motorcycle.
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Besides unsprung weight, what is it like trying to keep a hub motor cool when it is putting out maximum power while traveling at high speed and uphill?
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-- Curb weight of 200lbs / 91kg sounds low for something that's supposed to withstand 130mph; I'd expect more like 140-150kg. Unless it were made of titanium ;)
Where did you get the 130mph from? It tops out at 80mph, that would be a bit sketchy on such a light bike but not ridiculous, and with the big hole and being a smaller bike side wind won't as big an issue.
Oops, typo. Should have been 130km/h (=~80mph), me thinking natively in metric :)
-- No mention of payload
With it having no pillion or storage provisions I don't think they really need to state one. If someone is so heavy that payload capacity is something they need to check when buying a bike they shouldn't be riding a bike that weighs less than them and only has 14kW.
Normally I wouldn't care about it, but as a 200lbs curb weight sounds quite iffy to me strength-wise, I want to know how close to GVWR riding it will be.
Many bikes are decidedly dangerous when that's exceeded (I know from personal experience). Again, wouldn't have worried with a 30mph moped, but at the claimed top speed it's more of an issue.
-- 8kW motor . 14.5 KW sounds a bit high for peak, unless it's for a few seconds.
8kW will be what it can sustain indefinitely without overheating and probably with a low SoC. The peak power will be with a fully charged battery and could be for 10 seconds or a few minutes, but whatever it is I don't think it's an unreasonable amount more than the sustained output. Essentially it's going to cruise at a steady speed like an 8kW bike but accelerate like a 14kW one (for example overtaking or getting up to speed, which only takes a few seconds).
Maybe; we may need to wait for the first full reviews for that.
Maybe the better question is what's the design cruising speed, and how long it takes to get to that.
-- 80 mph sounds optimistic for a 8kW motor, esp. with no provision for aero. I'd believe 60-65, which is enough for most commuting use.
Top speed will being with peak power. Zero actually does it better by giving both a max short period speed as well as a max sustained speed.
Agreed; in the various metro regions I've had to commute in, in several countries, sustained 70mph with a 75-80mph spurt would actually be ideal if a motorway stretch is part of the route.
-- Ditto 80mi range implies 50Wh/mile; even at low speeds, that sounds too low compared to typical e-motorcycle values, unless it's at 25mph; it's much closer to the 10-20 Wh/mi that e-bicycles get.
Similar to the top speed the max range is going to be in the best case scenario, it's what all manufacturers do because they all want the best numbers. They don't say under what conditions it can do 80 miles so it's practically meaningless, instead we should just assume it will perform similarly to something like a 3.6kW/h FXS.
Yup (-:
As for my opinion on the bike, I think it's great if they really can deliver it at that price. That will put it in line with the top end A1 class bikes (125cc) and should cruise at speeds you'd want to keep a 125 at while having better acceleration. The only additions I'd want to see are the choice of either a storage compartment or an extra battery where the hole is, and even with another 4kW/h it should still be cheaper than a 7.2kW/h Zero (although of course with less performance). Had this existed when I got my KTM Duke 125 I would have been very tempted to get this instead for just an extra £600 or so (perhaps even less with the government grant), and if they did an 8kW/h version where the extra 4kW/h could be added later on I might not have even wanted to get my Zero.
Agreed. If they can do it, it'll really push the market beyond the current 30mph urban mopeds.
Do you know if the Evoke Urban S / Urban Classic (https://www.evokemotorcycles.com/urban-s) are getting any traction in the UK?
They're essentially range-wise like the Zero FX 7.2, but power 19kW like the ZF3.6, at a US$8K price.
They officially launched a couple of years ago, but I can't find any signs that they're actually being sold, at least in the West.
I recall reading recently that they've started selling in the UK via a distributor called Amped Motorcycles.
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Besides unsprung weight, what is it like trying to keep a hub motor cool when it is putting out maximum power while traveling at high speed and uphill?
Good question. The Evoke I mentioned in the previous post also has a hub motor, and they claim a 11kW/19kW continuous/peak motor, max torque 86 ft-lbs, 0-60mph acceleration 6sec and top speed 80mph.
This (https://www.diyelectriccar.com/threads/wheel-hub-motors-are-they-viable-yet.184329/) has some discussion of the issues including heat dissipation.
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Normally I wouldn't care about it, but as a 200lbs curb weight sounds quite iffy to me strength-wise, I want to know how close to GVWR riding it will be.
Many bikes are decidedly dangerous when that's exceeded (I know from personal experience). Again, wouldn't have worried with a 30mph moped, but at the claimed top speed it's more of an issue.
Like I said, unless you're actually obese or a body builder I wouldn't worry about it. Light weight doesn't mean it's weak, don't forget that it has a fairly small battery, hub motor, and a quite nifty machined aluminium frame. It's only 15kg lighter than a 3.6 FXS (part of that will be from the motor, belt, rear sprocket and part of the rear wheel weight, the greater suspension travel, and the extra padding on the seat) and that has a carry capacity of 379 pounds according to Zero. In fact they spec it as having a higher weight capacity than the 7.2 because of the weight saved off the battery. On the other hand if you look at a 7.2 DS versus a 14.4 DSR the DSR has 70 pounds greater capacity despite weighing 100 pounds more so evidently the available torque has an impact on how much the manufacturers say the bike can handle.
Do you know if the Evoke Urban S / Urban Classic (https://www.evokemotorcycles.com/urban-s) are getting any traction in the UK?
They're essentially range-wise like the Zero FX 7.2, but power 19kW like the ZF3.6, at a US$8K price.
They officially launched a couple of years ago, but I can't find any signs that they're actually being sold, at least in the West.
I recall reading recently that they've started selling in the UK via a distributor called Amped Motorcycles.
I'd heard of them but didn't know they were available in the UK. Pricing is about £2.5k cheaper than a 7.2 Zero at £7.5k, which is about $10.2k so not quite as good a deal as in the US. Still pretty good though, you get faster charging than the Zero and maybe a tiny bit more range (but certainly not as much as Evoke claims) but more weight and less performance. I'm not sure if it's actually A1 class compliant though, although it technically is rated at 11kW continuous output neither Evoke nor Amped specifically state it's A1.
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OK
take on this.
First glance looked promising ( that happens so often).
ICE motored only need 10HP continuous to do over 100kph ( I have ad enough 100/125cc single fourstrokes to know that is definitely true), so if the 8kw is true that is over 10HP so it will definitely do over 100. When to take into account that the HP curve on those ICE motors has started to dip at over 100kph I am suggesting around 70MPH from an electric as the torque doesn't tail off.
Don't electric motorcycles pretty much make max torque starting from a stop up until max hp is achieved then make max hp as rpm increases? Torque dropping in the upper revs.
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Don't electric motorcycles pretty much make max torque starting from a stop up until max hp is achieved then make max hp as rpm increases? Torque dropping in the upper revs.
See the charts here. (https://www.carthrottle.com/post/how-do-electric-vehicles-produce-instant-torque/)
-Don- Reno, NV
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OK
take on this.
First glance looked promising ( that happens so often).
ICE motored only need 10HP continuous to do over 100kph ( I have ad enough 100/125cc single fourstrokes to know that is definitely true), so if the 8kw is true that is over 10HP so it will definitely do over 100. When to take into account that the HP curve on those ICE motors has started to dip at over 100kph I am suggesting around 70MPH from an electric as the torque doesn't tail off.
Don't electric motorcycles pretty much make max torque starting from a stop up until max hp is achieved then make max hp as rpm increases? Torque dropping in the upper revs.
Pretty much. It takes a certain amount of power to produce max torque at a certain RPM, the amount of power increasing as the RPM rises. Once the power limit is reached (limited by the controller or battery) at that certain RPM torque begins to fall. As well as power input you also have power output which is just torque*RPM (to put it simply), so it closely follows the power input minus efficiency losses (which will vary a bit based on the RPM).
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Sorry, but any company that reproduces the Reliant Robin's layout in their lineup - even in mirror-image -
If you think that a three-wheeler with two up front is remotely similar to a three wheeler with two in back, well... One drives like a sports car, the other... doesn't. At all.
-Crissa
Millions of people who drive Spyders, Rykers, T-Rexes and Slingshots would agree with that statement. :)
Sure, fine, Ok, but you missed the fact that I was talking about looks not handling :-)
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Micah did an interview with Sondors about this bike over at Electrek.
https://electrek.co/2021/01/22/all-your-questions-answered-about-the-5k-sondors-metacycle-electric-motorcycle/
It answers some of our concerns, sidesteps others.
The most substantive pieces of info are that they are basically going to have a charge tank, power tank, and storage box for that hole in the frame. They also said they are working on the NHSTA process to make sure the bike is street legal.
Funny enough they said it won't include user adjustable settings because of "liability reasons" which is hilariously obvious BS.
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Looks like I was right about that big open space in the frame. They plan on having a locking storage case fill that spot and that makes PERFECT sense for a highway capable commuter!
In fact, since one of the guys involved formerly worked at Zero there are two other options for that space: A "Power Tank" or a "Charge Tank." Pretty much the same purpose served by that faux "tank" on the Generation 2 Zero models.
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Looks like I was right about that big open space in the frame. They plan on having a locking storage case fill that spot and that makes PERFECT sense for a highway capable commuter!
In fact, since one of the guys involved formerly worked at Zero there are two other options for that space: A "Power Tank" or a "Charge Tank." Pretty much the same purpose served by that faux "tank" on the Generation 2 Zero models.
Yep it's one of 3 things I suppose: A storage area, a 3kWh module or an L2 charger (maybe 3kW).
Here's some more on all that: https://electrek.co/2021/01/22/all-your-questions-answered-about-the-5k-sondors-metacycle-electric-motorcycle/
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My understanding is that mounting the motor in the swing arm has been a common design pattern in the scooter market for many years. Obviously it must work for the intended use of those products. Therefore I don’t follow the concerns over the hub motor. This isn’t intended for racing or off-road use.
So far Zero, Energica, etc. have not produced anything that sufficiently motivates me to buy my first electric motorcycle. If Alta had survived and produced the ST concept that might have happened. The Metacycle is attractive.
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Alan, you obviously haven't driven on Australian roads...
Unsprung mass problem is highlighted by racing, but not confined to to. Simple scenario: Coming up to a corner anything over about 20kph. Dip or bump unseen on the entrance with a square(enough) edge with a transient height greater than the defection limit of the rear tyre. When the tyre hits that mass will be chucked upwards. With a low unsprung rear mass the suspension can absorb the deflection as the spring acts against a much greater motorcycle/rider mass. With large unprung rear mass the correct weight spring rate to suspend the relatively lighter motorcycle/rider mass will blow through it's travel and continue upwards. Not conducive to safety. I have had this happen on the old CX500 which had a very heavy shaft drive "diff" . Didn't crash, but I was luckily going in a straight line , not cornering.
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You guys keep acting like these motors are hugely heavy. They're not.
It's not as good as a lightweight racing wheel, but it's not much worse than an old cruiser wheel.
Before whining about 'unsprung weight' maybe look into the weight of the wheel-motor assembly you're complaining about and compare it to the range otherwise possible.
If we're skimping on the motor here, why wouldn't we be otherwise looking at a cheap steel (heavy) wheel as the alternative?
This isn't the performance model, anyhow.
-Crissa
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It's all about relative weight of sprung to unsprung mass and there doesn't appear to be a lot of sprung mass and rather more sprung mass than usual, which is essentially the worst combination. That's not what worries me about the design though. Look at how the swingarm pivots on the frame. Ahh.
Cas :)
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For reference, Sondors says it's an 8KW nominal motor. Here's a comparable hub motor from QS, the biggest maker of hub motors for this application and very likely where Sondors is sourcing their motor.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001694402620.html
It's 23kgs, or 50lbs.
Sondors claims their entire bike weights 200lbs.
1/4 of your bikes weight in the rear wheel is significant.
In comparison, a honda grom is 233lbs, and its OEM rear wheel is only 7lbs.
I think it would be naïve to assume that the sondors having so much of its total weight in the rear wheel wouldn't effect handling.
But I also think most entry level riders who would be most interested in this would not notice or care for the difference. It's not meant for the track, it's not meant for stunt riding. People who buy the metacycle are going to be commuting at city speeds in it for the most part, and under those conditions the handling difference isn't going to be the end of the world.
Yes, if you go around a corner blazing fast on this thing on a bumpy road it might walk on you and it's not going to behave nearly as well as a bike with less unsprung weight, but a new rider shouldn't be doing that! Anyone riding this thing should simple be aware of its limitations and ride within them.
There are a lot of things about all of our bikes that are not ideal, and we all have to know the risks that come with those and act accordingly. Before the SR/F none of the zeroes had TC or dual front discs, so there was a potential for spinning the rear wheel and our stopping distance wasn't ideal. That didn't make the zero an inherently bad bike or not worth buying. It's just a compromise that was made and we had to manage the drawbacks of.
A rear hub is no different. It's a compromise that has drawbacks, and we should be aware of them. To me this isn't a dealbreaker for the Sondors, giving all the other benefits its bringing for its price point and its ideal use, the hub motor is suites the bike just fine. Someone buying the bike should be aware of how unsprung weight effects handling and ride accordingly.
If you go to a community like elmoto.net or endless-sphere, you'll see a ton of people with heavy hub motors similar to this one that really enjoy their bikes. Sometimes the on-paper ideal is not relevant to the individual experience.
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But the rider weighs 200lbs. They're part of the load.
And again, you're comparing an ultra light-weight wheel against a cheap wheel. That is not, at all, honest.
-Crissa
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The rider weighs 200lbs on the grom, the rider weighs 200lbs on the sondors.
The sondors has 40+ more lbs unsprung rotating weight in the rear wheel than the grom.
This effects handling. That's just a fact.
How much that handling difference actually matters to the rider is definitely up for debate. Personally I think it's not a big deal in this case, but to say it has no effect at all is to ignore known motorcycle handling characteristics, and y'know, physics.
I don't know what you mean about ultra-light wheel against a cheap wheel? I chose the grom because it has a roughly similar weight to the sondors, that OEM wheel is not some special ultra-light wheel, but its the wheel honda engineers chose to be a part of that system. Cost is irrelevant.
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Besides the hub motor, spokes and nipples, rim, rim band, tube, tire, brake rotor and caliper, some wires.
I probably speculated about the relative weight on the tires earlier.
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Sure, those are all factors in unsprung weight, but they should be relatively similar between the grom and the sondors. The biggest difference in weight is simply adding the hub motor.
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Again, you're weighing a performance wheel against a cheap wheel.
Why? They are not in the same league.
One doesn't have a chain or sprocket, either. You're not weighing that, either.
The more you back-pedal, the smaller the difference is.
-Crissa
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Performance wheel? I honestly don't understand what you're talking about.
And backpedal? I've been pretty consistant. A hub motor is more unsprung weight, that effects handling, this is what I've said consistantly. I've also said it probably isn't a big deal to the rider, again consistantly.
Where's the backpedal? What point are you trying to make?
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You don't, because you're comparing a budget electric to a performance 125?
-Crissa
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You don't, because you're comparing a budget electric to a performance 125?
-Crissa
When was the "Grom" a performance bike? I't s a PLAY bike. Racers use them in the pits. People putter around town on them.
And fifty pounds (you DID see that part, right) is FIFTY POUNDS. I don't care how many sprockets and chains you put on that wheel, unless you built the sprocket out of depleted uranium it isn't going to weigh anywhere near fifty pounds.
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Now you think about it I wonder what the reasoning was for putting such a huge weight in the hub like that when there's ... a giant hole in the frame. Like, it seems there's space to spare to have moved things around a bit and I don't think a chain and sprockets would have hurt to add. Hey ho. It does look fabulous though.
Cas :)
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Because they're going to fill that hole with storage, a faster charger, or more battery. One of the advantages of hub motors is it frees up space for other components. The other advantages are that it's a bit simpler and cheaper to design and build (good for hitting that $5k target), less maintenance, and it looks neat which is obviously a big part of the appeal of this bike.
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The grom, a performance bike? ::)
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A 17" steel mag wheel is 40 lbs.
Groms are performance - they aren't cheap. They're not fast, either, but that doesn't mean they cheap.
-Crissa
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how you really gonna say the literal cheapest motorcycle in honda's lineup isn't cheap?
What bike is that 17" steel mag wheel from? How much does the bike weigh, ready to ride? We need a real example of an OEM wheel on an OEM bike weight to make any kind of comparison. Giving a random wheel example without the context of the bike doesn't tell us anything about its ratio of unsprung vs sprung. Heavier bikes tend to need heavier components, including heavier wheels, rotors, brake calipers, sprockets, chains, etc.
An 800lb Goldwing for instance, has a 35lb wheel.
The effect unsprung weight has on handling is directly related to that ratio.
This video has a good explanation and simulation of the very real effect this has on suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj9IKhLqSlg
Of course another important question to ask is how well the rear suspension on the sondors performs, and if it's even adjustable.
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how you really gonna say the literal cheapest motorcycle in honda's lineup isn't cheap?
How do you think that a motorcycle built as a plaything for the world's rich isn't the cheapest Honda? What's the price of a Honda Shine?
Nice. First you ignore most of the sprung weight in your comparison. Then you forget the gear and chain weight.
C'mon. It's certainly going to make it perform slightly different. But it's not a massive change from cheap bikes of the past. (You admit that a goldwing has a heavy wheel! Geez. What about the weight of the drive shaft, too?)
You might as well make a big deal about the change in rotational force from an engine. "Oh no, they did that, too!"
-Crissa
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Er Crissa, you seem to be wilfully ignoring the ratio of the sprung to unsprung weight that is being highlighted here. A 40lb wheel is fine on an 800lb motorcycle (whether an 800lb motorcycle is fine on the other hand...)
Seriously - heavy wheels make awful handling, and I really mean awful. I don't know if you're old enough or not to remember what bikes used to handle like only 40 years ago but let me assure you, they were shit. I am amazed any of us survived. All of the little clever advances made over the last 40 years today give us bikes are are all fundamentally great handling. One of the big advances (of many) was the understanding that heavy wheels means terrible roadholding.
Cas :)
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Yeah, and I know that people are making a mountain out of a molehill. It's only one wheel, it's just the drive wheel, and editing the comparative weight to the extremis - ignoring rider, sprocket, etc - is exaggerating the difference and ignoring precedence.
It's one of the reasons I talked my spouse into a new bike over the classic Hondas she was used to - bikes are lighter today and wear better. All the hundred of tiny things.
But they're still tiny things. The metacycle is never going to be a grom. No one in their right mind commutes on a grom. It's also not the cheapest bike Honda makes.
-Crissa
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Who is ignoring the rider. Sure no one has discussed the rider standing on the pegs and sort of have a spring and shock between them (the massive upper body) and the pegs. I should have mentioned the weight of a rear sprocket and half the weight of the chain suitable for this horsepower class, as well a half the weight of the swingarm assembly. Don't loose sight that the motor weight is moved from the sprung to unsprung category.
If I recall the 80's two stroke 500cc and smaller bikes the whole rear wheel with the brake drum weighed 24 pouns. There is a backing plate shoes and chain. A drive shaft bike the wheel can be lighter but there is more stuff. Now from what I understand the design is mass centralization, some think the shocks with linkage help with placement on the bike as much as wheel control. Which is another discussion.
Not sure how this applies here but in suspention there is a term called packing. If the bumps come at a faster rate than the wheel can go down the suspention starts riding higher up in the stroke where the damping is different.
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Yeah, and I know that people are making a mountain out of a molehill. It's only one wheel, it's just the drive wheel, and editing the comparative weight to the extremis - ignoring rider, sprocket, etc - is exaggerating the difference and ignoring precedence.
It's one of the reasons I talked my spouse into a new bike over the classic Hondas she was used to - bikes are lighter today and wear better. All the hundred of tiny things.
But they're still tiny things. The metacycle is never going to be a grom. No one in their right mind commutes on a grom. It's also not the cheapest bike Honda makes.
-Crissa
There is nothing cheap about the Groms that I have seen. They appear to be just a starting point for expensive modifications that include such things as big bore engines, wide wheels, extended swing-arms, nitrous injection and other crazy things that don't make any sense on that little motorcycle. ::)
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Yeah, and I know that people are making a mountain out of a molehill. It's only one wheel, it's just the drive wheel, and editing the comparative weight to the extremis - ignoring rider, sprocket, etc - is exaggerating the difference and ignoring precedence.
It's one of the reasons I talked my spouse into a new bike over the classic Hondas she was used to - bikes are lighter today and wear better. All the hundred of tiny things.
But they're still tiny things. The metacycle is never going to be a grom. No one in their right mind commutes on a grom. It's also not the cheapest bike Honda makes.
-Crissa
Mountain out of a molehille? I literally said it will no doubt effect handling, it's 50lb! But also said it won't be a big deal for the average use case. Who's making a mountain? I think you're losing the nuance here.
Add all the other stuff in, it's still a big difference! 50lb is a lot of weight for a 200lb bike no matter how you look at it. Again, if you wanna pick a bike you have solid #'s for we can do a comparison, but the ratio of unsprung weight on the metacycle is pretty extreme compared to a gas bike or even any of the electric bikes we're used to.
I didn't add everything to my comparison not to "ignore" them, but because I simply don't have solid numbers in front of me for them. I was keeping the example simple because 50lb speaks for itself. A sprocket and chain doesn't make a dent in how big that difference is, and is effectively irrelevant unless we're going to do really precise calculations. I didn't see a point in doing anything precisely because again, 50lb on a 200lb bike is a huge ratio by itself!
You talk about precedence, but show me another motorcycle that weights only 200lb with over 50 of it being in the rear wheel.
But sure, if you wanna ignore known physics about how unsprung weight effects suspension because of the negligible weight of a chain and sprocket, be my guest. ::)
The ratio is what's important. Are you suggesting that because the goldwing is fine with a 35lb wheel + ??lb drive shaft, you could transfer that heavy rear end to a smaller bike and it would handle just fine?
I dunno about if they're in their right mind, but I used to see a couple commute 2-up on a grom across the bay bridge every day. Looked a bit too dangerous for my taste. But I also see people commute around with them in my area.
And it is the cheapest motorcycle they sell, at least in the US. The only cheaper 2-wheelers they have are the 49cc scooters, as in, not motorcycles.
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Hey, caza, I missed that you already said that last week: https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10775.msg99954#msg99954
That storm took out power and internet for a tenth of my county including me so I missed a few things when trying to catch up.
And no, I'm not saying that the shaft drive wouldn't be heavy and less responsive (tho it's really nice in other ways, honestly) just that a few pounds this way and that are not significant and it's annoying to have ridden bikes much, much worse and hear people continue to harp on this as if it were impossibly unsafe.
-Crissa
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I definitely agree with you there, I think there's a middle ground where we can acknowledge the handling effects of unsprung weight without acting like every bike with a hub motor is going to be a huge safety concern and should never be ridden.
Inverted forks add unsprung weight, but we still do it because there are more factors at play, and fork stiffness is worth the hit in that case.
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Just musing but... would a grrt big heavy hub motor, attached to a particularly light motorcycle out the front, not make for an especially entertaining wheelie device?
Cas :)
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It could but it would ideally need to be the right hub motor tuned for higher torque instead of higher top speed. Since you can't play with your gear ratio the motor has to be made for the use case you want.
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Inverted forks add unsprung weight, but we still do it because there are more factors at play, and fork stiffness is worth the hit in that case.
Not sure how you came up with that, as I see the opposite. By putting the thicker, heavier part of the fork ABOVE the spring you are reducing unsprung weight. Now it is the thinner, inner tube that is sprung. It also increases stiffness as you said as your turning torque goes directly into the wider diameter tubes which would flex less than the thinner diameter tubes used on older motorcycles.
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I think the sprung part of an inverted fork is traditionally solid alloy/steel rather than a tube hence slightly greater mass than you'd expect.
This is only half the story though. The very worst sort of unsprung weight is unsprung weight that rotates at 300rpm.
Cas :)
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I think the sprung part of an inverted fork is traditionally solid alloy/steel rather than a tube hence slightly greater mass than you'd expect.
This is only half the story though. The very worst sort of unsprung weight is unsprung weight that rotates at 300rpm.
Cas :)
That doesn't make sense. I'm not saying it's not true (I need to do some research) but it doesn't make any sense. From purely a materials perspective, I hollow tube would cost less than a solid rod. Gotta hunt around for photos of an exploded, cartridge-style USD fork to verify.
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Cheaper yes but the point of them was stiffer forks, not cheaper forks.
Cas :)
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But they're still tiny things. The metacycle is never going to be a grom. No one in their right mind commutes on a grom. It's also not the cheapest bike Honda makes.
-Crissa
What's your beef with the Grom? I used to commute on a somewhat modified one 30 miles each way and it's awesome. Does 65-70mph and is pretty comfortable. The handling is awesome and it's a lot of fun. Also, 100mpg. Amazing for lane splitting.
The Grom is worlds better than the metacycle in basically every department.
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Well, apart from the petrol.
Cas :)
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Inverted forks are usually stiffer for two reasons, generally they use larger diameter tubes and they have a greater distance between the sliding bearing surfaces inside the forks (compare the length of the uppers on inverted forks to the lowers on traditional forks). Because of these reasons you can get away with using thinner wall and lighter tubing so for the same stiffness the inverted fork will be lighter (overall and just the unsprung portion), so if you find a traditional fork that's lighter than an inverted one it's because it has more flex.
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This is only half the story though. The very worst sort of unsprung weight is unsprung weight that rotates at 300rpm.
Yes and no. That rotational inertia is what keeps us upright, so in some ways that makes it more stable at low speed. Sort of. It can do the opposite, too...
-Crissa
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Sorry, but any company that reproduces the Reliant Robin's layout in their lineup - even in mirror-image - cannot expect to be taken seriously by the AngloSaxon consumer. Just sayin'...
What the hell kind of racist stuff are you posting here? Not being an "AngloSaxon" I take exception to this type of posting, implying that YOU are a more discerning consumer, huh?
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Sorry, but any company that reproduces the Reliant Robin's layout in their lineup - even in mirror-image - cannot expect to be taken seriously by the AngloSaxon consumer. Just sayin'...
What the hell kind of racist stuff are you posting here? Not being an "AngloSaxon" I take exception to this type of posting, implying that YOU are a more discerning consumer, huh?
You obviously aren't British (neither am I), so you missed the cultural reference... By Anglo-Saxon he simply meant British, as the Reliant Robin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliant_Robin) was a famous in the UK in the 1970s & 1980s, for being 3-wheeled, cheap and having a fibreglass body.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQh56geU0X8&t=11s
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By the way, a friend of mine tried to put a deposit down on a Sonders Metacycle with two different credit cards. Both credit card companies rejected the charge (American Express and the Bank of America). American Express told him they don't allow these kinds of transactions at all. More troubling was the response from Bank of America. They said they will not do business with Sondors due to multiple complaints they received about the company...
Caveat Emptor.
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Completely meaningless but Sondors Metacycle is an anagram of As Motorcycles End.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWGdDD8r-IQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oii8FfD9Ns
not my videos
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Sorry, but any company that reproduces the Reliant Robin's layout in their lineup - even in mirror-image - cannot expect to be taken seriously by the AngloSaxon consumer. Just sayin'...
What the hell kind of racist stuff are you posting here? Not being an "AngloSaxon" I take exception to this type of posting, implying that YOU are a more discerning consumer, huh?
Wow, that escalated quickly. If you're not familiar with the @RobinReliant laugh-fests on UK telly over time, that's one thing. If you want to hate-call-me-out without any other research or curiosity, that's another thing. BTW and FWIW, I'm not AngloSaxon either - I'm Portuguese. But many of my best friends are AngloSaxons bwahaha...
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BTW, they had to seriously overbalance the Reliants to get them to roll on cue. It wasn't just trick driving, but mis-aligned wheels and weights. I'm trying to remember where I read that...
-Crissa
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BTW, they had to seriously overbalance the Reliants to get them to roll on cue. It wasn't just trick driving, but mis-aligned wheels and weights. I'm trying to remember where I read that...
-Crissa
Not just the Robin videos. Top Gear isn't exactly known for intellectual honesty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_controversies).
One of the presenters (possibly Jeremy Clarkson himself, the most famous one) once said that it was an entertainment show, not an automotive one, implying it shouldn't be expected to be factual.
He was eventually suspended, probably for one too many crashes.
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Completely meaningless but Sondors Metacycle is an anagram of As Motorcycles End.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWGdDD8r-IQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oii8FfD9Ns
not my videos
I don't know if his math is correct but I do know that a 15hp/11kW 125cc gas bike can top 70mph, and when you take into consideration how much power is lost through the gearbox and drivetrain I have no reason to doubt the Metacycle can hit 80mph with over twice the power at the rear wheel. Also using his acceleration formula gives my base model DS a 0-60mph time of 3.3 seconds or 1.9 seconds to 34mph. I know the Zero doesn't give you full torque from a stop (the Metacycle probably doesn't either) but even if it did I can't see it being able to accelerate that quickly so perhaps there are other things that need to be taken into consideration.
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...I have no reason to doubt the Metacycle can hit 80mph with over twice the power at the rear wheel...
That's not quite how electric motors work, though, they are bound by their coils to certain limitations in rotation. Not to mention the motor controller.
Just because it 'has the power' doesn't mean it 'has the speed'.
I also have no reason to think it can or can't, either, I don't know anything about the parts they're using. But it's perfectly logical that it might not.
-Crissa
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The guy in the videos (trowan, or whatever his name is) is disingenuous to the point of dishonesty.
The back-of-envelope calculations look reasonable, AFAICT, but:
1) Sondors' site doesn't say anywhere thatI can see "80mph sustained", only "80mph top speed". Big difference, and trowan repeats this several times.
It's quite rare that any vehicle vendor quotes a top sustained speed (airplanes aside), but if they do, they usually call it "cruising speed" and give a separate top speed. That should have tipped him off to double-check, since he's clearly not a newcomer to electric vehicles of various types.
2) He pretends surprise that the max range claim isn't for the max speed, whereas it's the standard practice that pretty much every maker of every electric conveyance from the single-wheel scooter onwards. Very regrettable, but standard.
I think it's much more relevant and concerning that Sondors don't have a production-intent prototype yet (even if handmade) -- surely after selling 100K bikes they should have enough money to build one, even if not to homologate it?
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...I have no reason to doubt the Metacycle can hit 80mph with over twice the power at the rear wheel...
That's not quite how electric motors work, though, they are bound by their coils to certain limitations in rotation. Not to mention the motor controller.
Just because it 'has the power' doesn't mean it 'has the speed'.
I also have no reason to think it can or can't, either, I don't know anything about the parts they're using. But it's perfectly logical that it might not.
-Crissa
All I'm saying is power shouldn't be a limiting factor for the bike being able to hit 80mph. That's the only reason he said it wouldn't be able to reach that speed.
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The guy in the videos (trowan, or whatever his name is) is disingenuous to the point of dishonesty.
Counter-point: the layman will absolutely assume it can. I have a group of non-motorcycle friends I talk to often, and one of them brought up this new Sondors thing he read about that could do 80 miles an hour and 80 miles of range. He thought that was so cool.
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The guy in the videos (trowan, or whatever his name is) is disingenuous to the point of dishonesty.
Counter-point: the layman will absolutely assume it can. I have a group of non-motorcycle friends I talk to often, and one of them brought up this new Sondors thing he read about that could do 80 miles an hour and 80 miles of range. He thought that was so cool.
How so?
I didn't mean that it's wrong to debunk unreasonable claims -- of course it's a good thing.
However, no need to pretend that Sondors is the only one doing it, just for his channel's dramatic effect. That's dishonest when he clearly knows better.
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The guy in the videos (trowan, or whatever his name is) is disingenuous to the point of dishonesty.
Counter-point: the layman will absolutely assume it can. I have a group of non-motorcycle friends I talk to often, and one of them brought up this new Sondors thing he read about that could do 80 miles an hour and 80 miles of range. He thought that was so cool.
Would he also assume that a Tesla can reach its specified range at its top speed? Presumably he drives, probably a gas car, and is aware that their fuel consumption varies based on speed and that's the reason for manufacturers giving multiple efficiency ratings (highway, city, combined). I think even a layman understands that when a battery powered electrical device does more work it will have a shorter battery life, like maxing out the brightness on their phone's screen or turning up the volume on their bluetooth speaker.
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Would he also assume that a Tesla can reach its specified range at its top speed?
Probably
Presumably he drives, probably a gas car, and is aware that their fuel consumption varies based on speed and that's the reason for manufacturers giving multiple efficiency ratings (highway, city, combined). I think even a layman understands that when a battery powered electrical device does more work it will have a shorter battery life, like maxing out the brightness on their phone's screen or turning up the volume on their bluetooth speaker.
You give the public too much credit.
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Point of fact, no gasoline vehicle gives its range in miles based upon sustained top speed or even highway speed, either.
-Crissa
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Every time I hear about EV top speed and range I think about the hatchet job that Top Gear did to the original Tesla sports car back in the day, before they became an EV phenomenon and the public's term for an electric vehicle. They sure gave that poor car that they "tested" their usual treatment. :o
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Here is the latest news regarding the Sondors Metacycle. Apparently it is on the move. But where are their dealers? https://electrek.co/2022/06/26/sondors-metacycle-electric-motorcycle-shipping/
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Here is the latest news regarding the Sondors Metacycle. Apparently it is on the move. But where are their dealers? https://electrek.co/2022/06/26/sondors-metacycle-electric-motorcycle-shipping/
No dealers. They're shipped directly to the customers.
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Here is the latest news regarding the Sondors Metacycle. Apparently it is on the move. But where are their dealers? https://electrek.co/2022/06/26/sondors-metacycle-electric-motorcycle-shipping/
No dealers. They're shipped directly to the customers.
Who then have to unbox and assemble the motorcycle themselves (unless they pay for the $700 White Glove service)? Just like my old and long-departed 1958 Sears Roebuck Allstate 125 motorcycle. ::) I also assume that the new owner will have to visit their DMV and get the bike licensed, too. ???
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Would probably just have to adjust the handlebars, install mirrors, Check tire pressure, charge and go.
The paperwork would probably be a hassle at the DMV and Insurance would be interesting. A new model bike insurance is high to begin with and kick in the fact that it's also their first run in the Motorcycle scene !! Better hope that Flo likes you and you have a clean license $$$$$
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Considering the bike's low cost and low power I doubt the rates would be that high even if it is a new model.
I recently went through the NYS titling and registration process myself when I bought a used bike from out of state. It was relatively painless, actually (as long as you have all the right forms filled out and ready when you go). Checking your State's requirements beforehand would be a VERY good idea.
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Considering the bike's low cost and low power I doubt the rates would be that high even if it is a new model.
I recently went through the NYS titling and registration process myself when I bought a used bike from out of state. It was relatively painless, actually (as long as you have all the right forms filled out and ready when you go). Checking your State's requirements beforehand would be a VERY good idea.
And in the U.S., I hope the Metacycle will have a 17-digit VIN, otherwise you will get the heave-ho out of the DMV office. :o