ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Harley LiveWire Forum => Topic started by: ultrarnr on December 23, 2020, 03:12:17 PM
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From the Front Page: https://advrider.com/which-harley-davidson-models-will-return-in-2021/
"Lastly, there’s one very significant motorcycle that did not make the 2022 model list. Which bike is it? It’s the Harley-Davidson Livewire. It’s accessory pages only show the bike available for 2020 and 2021."
Also: https://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/which-harley-davidson-models-are-getting-axed.html
"There is one more *ahem* current model that did not get included on the 2022 list: the LiveWire. According to Harley-Davidson’s accessories page, the LiveWire is only listed for the model years 2020 and 2021. Some observers think Harley-Davidson should drop the electric LiveWire, and the parts and accessories page suggest that might happen."
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It won’t surprise me if H-D cancels the Livewire after 2021. They have a history of killing forward looking motorcycles in favor of their core line. Just a couple of examples include the V-Rod in all it’s variations and the Buell line-up, especially the Rotax powered bikes.
It’s why I’m not surprised to see the Bronx disappear. I think the only reason the Pan America is still around is because of the huge adventure touring market. If the Pan America fails to catch on don’t be surprised to see that end up as a 2-3 year run only.
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They (HD) is putting short pan american teasers out on cable tv. Maybe broadcast tv too. What is in an accessory catalog to generate a bunch of clicks on the internet for the e-journalists might be all that is going on here. Didn't they start a research group in Silicon Valley?
Exactly how much someone can get a Live wire out the door seems to vary a lot from reading on the internet. That is at lest for me a turn off. Someone else stating how much a better deal they got than what I get quoted.
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It won’t surprise me if H-D cancels the Livewire after 2021. They have a history of killing forward looking motorcycles in favor of their core line. Just a couple of examples include the V-Rod in all it’s variations and the Buell line-up, especially the Rotax powered bikes.
It’s why I’m not surprised to see the Bronx disappear. I think the only reason the Pan America is still around is because of the huge adventure touring market. If the Pan America fails to catch on don’t be surprised to see that end up as a 2-3 year run only.
That is my thought, also. H-D has a history, going back at least 50 years, of buying companies and marketing new products and them dropping them if they don't immediately receive the profits that someone had forecast in the boardroom. And of course, you can say the same thing regarding Polaris and their electric motorcycle marketing decisions. That is the thing about many U.S. corporations, if they can't make a buck right away they drop the product and try something else. Unfortunately, the electric motorcycle market is littered with the best laid plans of mice and men that have gone astray. >:(
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That is my thought, also. H-D has a history, going back at least 50 years, of buying companies and marketing new products and them dropping them if they don't immediately receive the profits that someone had forecast in the boardroom. And of course, you can say the same thing regarding Polaris and their electric motorcycle marketing decisions. That is the thing about many U.S. corporations, if they can't make a buck right away they drop the product and try something else. Unfortunately, the electric motorcycle market is littered with the best laid plans of mice and men that have gone astray. >:(
This is something I've pointed out before. If a company is publicly traded, then it's primary reason for existence is "Share Holder Return." The most important thing to the Executive Board is being profitable THIS QUARTER. Long range plans get thrown out the window. If it's not profitable RIGHT NOW it's on the chopping block. It doesn't matter what business the company claims to be in... it's primary mission is "Share holder return."
That's why I seriously hope Zero NEVER has an IPO and always remains privately held...
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That is my thought, also. H-D has a history, going back at least 50 years, of buying companies and marketing new products and them dropping them if they don't immediately receive the profits that someone had forecast in the boardroom. And of course, you can say the same thing regarding Polaris and their electric motorcycle marketing decisions. That is the thing about many U.S. corporations, if they can't make a buck right away they drop the product and try something else. Unfortunately, the electric motorcycle market is littered with the best laid plans of mice and men that have gone astray. >:(
This is something I've pointed out before. If a company is publicly traded, then it's primary reason for existence is "Share Holder Return." The most important thing to the Executive Board is being profitable THIS QUARTER. Long range plans get thrown out the window. If it's not profitable RIGHT NOW it's on the chopping block. It doesn't matter what business the company claims to be in... it's primary mission is "Share holder return."
That's why I seriously hope Zero NEVER has an IPO and always remains privately held...
+1 :)
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HD made the same mistake as Victory did with the Empulse. make it too overpriced for the spec of that machine compared to competition. Empulse at 20k was too expensive compared to Zero or Energica at that time.
Maybe Livewire will be replaced with a different Ebike with a more competitive price?
With the emission standards getting better with the new administration, staying in he Ebike space would benefit Harley. Not to forget the years of investment HD put into this project :)
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I think a 6kw AC charger and a price of $22k would have really improved sales but either they couldn't or wouldn't make that happen.
The two interviews from the Damon team made two points. Damon CEO Jay Giraud said he thought they had only sold a hundred or so and said he felt they should branch off an electric division to not compete directly with their gas bikes.
While Damon COO and former co-founder of Alta, Derek Dorresteyn said Harley was planning at least one other electric bike and it should be released in the not too distant future.
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Well, they better had, because in 10 years time huge chunks of their market will vanish when most of Europe mandates zero emissions motoring.
Cas :)
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I'm still pleased I got a Vrod (that I still have and ride) in 2005 and I'm very happy to have a LiveWire as well. If I can get 15 years out of it I'll be rapt. Hell, if I can get 15 years out of me I'll be more rapt :-)
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I'm somehow only convinced 99% that Livewire will not be alive come next year. After R&D and all the talk of electrification and "Long way up", there may still be a chance that it will be live, in some form or the other..
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And here is another article speculating that H-D's future electric vehicle plans might be going down the drain:
https://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/harley-davidsons-electric-future-in-doubt.html
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So, ya telling me I have a Collector's First Edition. Yay! ;D
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Here is some more info which says otherwise:
https://electrek.co/2021/01/12/harley-davidson-likely-wont-cancel-the-livewire-electric-motorcycle/amp/
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So, ya telling me I have a Collector's First Edition. Yay! ;D
Yeah.... Just like my First and Last Edition Victory Empulse TT.... I guess prime time just isn't ready....
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LW is definitely staying. The announcement did not mention if any substantial changes will be made when the 2021 is released this summer. I was hoping for luggage options and grip heaters.
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Just to obfuscate things further, I visited a local HD emporium to view their (four) LiveWires.
I genuinely wanted to see one in the metal—I have only viewed photos.It is smaller and slimmer than imagined but still very heavy. The styling? Not as, ahem, silly as I originally perceived.
The salesdrone I spoke to had plenty of tattoos. He likes to wheelie and used to ride stunt bikes. Or was that stunted bikes. Which is to say that what he told me about the future of the LiveWire may have no connection to reality.
He and his manager both indicated that HD have updated their product catalogue for 2021 and the LiveWire (along with multiple other HD bike models) was not in it. I asked if HD planned to keep selling the LiveWire as a 2020 model or maybe come out with a new one in 2022, and both thought not.
The new CEO at HD, according to the salesgerms, seems intent on reducing overhead by cutting models and limiting options. Take that as you wish.
I do plan to try out a LiveWire this coming weekend, however. The rest? Whenever I read the phrase, "X is committed to continuing..." usually means that whatever was promised will not happen.
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If it goes away.... yayyy I have a First Collector's Edition 8)
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Disappointing but entirely expected. The Livewire didn't do enough to either convert HD's main audience or pull in EV buyers that would otherwise get a Zero or Energica.
It was never going to sell well, and to HD there's no reason to continue with the bike, and the only lesson HD will have learned is "Electric bikes don't sell."
As for the collectors edition, It'll be hard to fix or repair over time, as after it's discontinued I'd expect both parts and qualified mechanics to work on it to be in extremely short supply. And when the battery degrades too much, it'll basically be an art piece.
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Canceling it seems like intending to be a declining company.
-Crissa
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Well, they're up a certain creek without a certain instrument then, because they won't be able to sell a single bike to the entire of Europe within the next 10 years, which won't please the shareholders very much.
Cas :)
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They'll burn that bridge when they get to it.
Right now there are only select city centers that don't allow gas, it'll take some time for that to spread. As long as it's not the most immediate threat, it isn't the most powerful force. Gotta please those shareholders in the short term.
In 2019, between all of Europe, the Middle-East, and Africa, Harley sold 44k bikes, compared to 126k in the US alone. This is out of 218k total sales. Those green European city centers are, as of now, the tiniest blip on their radar.
They're a company that has historically refused to adapt, focused in the US market which is also resistant to adapting, so it's no surprise that they're bad at adapting to the electric future.
This won't be the last electric bike from Harley, but the lesson they learned from the livewire won't be "we need to do more of this right now"
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It could be said that pricing it at twice the price it should have been may possibly have nerfed its success...
Cas :)
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So much doom :-) Hey, one of these days, I'll be out of production as well - and maybe not enough qualified mechanics and parts to fix me either - but I still had a lot of fun over a lot of years on 2 wheels, electrified or dinosaured. So far for 2021, the ratio of electric to ICE motorcycle miles is 2:1 (skewed by working a lot so no long-distance touring).
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Here is the latest news regarding the future of the LiveWire. You will have to scroll down most of the way past all of the H-D V-twin news to get to the LiveWire information. https://www.motorcycle.com/features/what-harley-davidson-mentioned-in-its-2021-launch-and-what-it-didnt.html
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Hmm, a summer reveal.
Well, that makes sense, in a Zero we-can't-show-until-ready sort of way.
-Crissa
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https://electricmotorcycles.news/harley-davidson-strengthens-commitment-to-electric-with-the-creation-of-a-dedicated-division-focused-exclusively-on-electric-motorcycles/
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https://electricmotorcycles.news/harley-davidson-strengthens-commitment-to-electric-with-the-creation-of-a-dedicated-division-focused-exclusively-on-electric-motorcycles/
Just read this! Also:
Create a semi-autonomous Harley-Davidson electric motorcycle division responsible for Harley’s electric motorcycle products. For the immediate future, urban mobility will be at the forefront. Zeitz says current electric motorcycle technology cannot presently support areas like motorcycle touring.
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The two interviews from the Damon team made two points. Damon CEO Jay Giraud said he thought they had only sold a hundred or so and said he felt they should branch off an electric division to not compete directly with their gas bikes.
While Damon COO and former co-founder of Alta, Derek Dorresteyn said Harley was planning at least one other electric bike and it should be released in the not too distant future.
I guess Jay was right.
I'd guess an adventure type model or scrambler next.
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Here is my take on H-D's latest EV marketing news: First they were going to Rewire and now they want to Hardwire. As usual you will need to scroll down the page to find their EV plan, which seems to me to be given the Buell treatment so as to keep electric motorcycles at an arms-length distance from their ICE V-twin market ::) : https://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/harley-davidson-reveals-the-hardwire-plan.html
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It's always interesting to read about H-D being unable to adapt*.
And yet, they've survived 100+ years in the motorcycle business.
*I think that phrase does not mean what many people think it means...
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H-D says they are supporting the future of electric motorcycles by spinning them off into a separate company. Now that is how you strengthen your commitment to a new technology - try to hide it. ::) I wonder if they will have separate showrooms for their electric motorcycle brand?
https://electricmotorcycles.news/harley-davidson-strengthens-commitment-to-electric-with-the-creation-of-a-dedicated-division-focused-exclusively-on-electric-motorcycles/
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I'm not convinced that's what it means entirely. The original Project LiveWire R&D work all took place in Milwaukee. Right as the bike launched they shut that division down and moved it entirely to the CA Bay Area. Anyone who wanted to go with the team moved; the ones who didn't either were laid off or found different work within H-D. The end result is an almost entirely new team that didn't develop the LiveWire being in charge of it and future projects. I suspect that's to what they are referring.
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H-D says they are supporting the future of electric motorcycles by spinning them off into a separate company. Now that is how you strengthen your commitment to a new technology - try to hide it. ::) I wonder if they will have separate showrooms for their electric motorcycle brand?
https://electricmotorcycles.news/harley-davidson-strengthens-commitment-to-electric-with-the-creation-of-a-dedicated-division-focused-exclusively-on-electric-motorcycles/
So by that standard, what Toyota did with the Lexus was a major fail? OK then.
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It worked for Honda (Acura), Toyota (Lexus) and Nissan (Infiniti) but so far only one motorcycle manufacturer tried that route that I know of. Yamaha spun off "Star Motorcycles" some years back to highlight their high-end, heavy cruiser motorcycles. A few years later and "Star Motorcycles" is no more, they're all just "Yamahas" again...
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Well it's the way Volvo spun off Polstar. The problem is an electric option is taking a sale from the more profitable gas side. So if you only want electric you get the Polstar and customers going to a Volvo dealer are pretty well locked into a gas model.
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Well it's the way Volvo spun off Polstar. The problem is an electric option is taking a sale from the more profitable gas side. So if you only want electric you get the Polstar and customers going to a Volvo dealer are pretty well locked into a gas model.
Learn something new every day. I wasn't aware Polstar was a division of Volvo.
On the flip side, Hyundai came up with the premium Genesis brand but unlike the Japanese, the Genesis cars are sold alongside the standard Hyundai cars. I know several Genesis owners who bemoan the fact that they are treated exactly the same at the dealership and service centers as the regular Hyundai owners.
Acura, Lexus and Infiniti owners get treated "special" because they are assumed to have more disposable income.
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I'm guessing all this bollocks one of various reasons why my Tesla stock is so insanely high. You only have to look at the incumbents in the industry from a distance to just shake your head and laugh at them desperately trying to hold on to their sacred cows.
Cas :)
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On the websites for the two local H-D dealerships, they have links to the Livewire MC but the links don't work. No info of any kind on the Livewire on either website. Doesn't look good . . . .
Yes, I know I can find info on the Livewire on the H-D website (and others), but the fact that the only two local H-D dealers in town have no info on the bike is a bit disconcerting . . .
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Called one of the two local crap-head H-D dealerships and asked if they had a Livewire that I could come and see. Of course they didn't and the salesman said there were only 5 in this state. Doesn't look like they are selling many.
Looks like H-D is marketing the Livewire like they did the Buell.
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Called one of the two local crap-head H-D dealerships...
Maybe that approach was not the one most conducive to the dealership taking the inquiry seriously?
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Called one of the two local crap-head H-D dealerships...
Maybe that approach was not the one most conducive to the dealership taking the inquiry seriously?
I've owned 5 Harleys and a Buell (all purchased used from private owners) -- I've interacted with both these dealerships, which are owned by the same mega-dealer-company Ride-Now) -- I know a bad dealership when I deal with one.