ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: centra12 on December 12, 2020, 11:22:48 PM
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Hello
Does it make sense to rebuild a 91Ah battery that already at an 80% SOC the warning message MinCell: 3781mV and various other messages e.g. at 68%SOC-MinCell: 3322mV?
To remove the defective block and continue with 3 or 2 blocks. ;)
Or will the parallel connection of the BMS cables at a bad cell the other three cells also damaged up thus the complete battery is scrap.
On my C evo, each battery block has its own BMS.
Is the new Zero SR-F/S also worked with parallel BMS cables?
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Hi Centra12,
the monolith is internally potted in resin, thus removing a block is not an option if single cell goes bad. Unless you have a modular fx or fxs.
Are your cell errors permanen?
What model are you riding?
How many miles do you have on it?
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I do not want to remove a single cell but only a single 28S block. Namely the block with the defective cell.
The question is whether it makes sense to do this if the other cells were loaded by the parallel connection of the BMS wiring and may also have taken damage.
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No idea how the Zero packs BMS are arranged.
If one of the parallel cells is bad it will cause the other cells in that chain to work harder. How much harder depends on how damaged the bad cell is.
You can get a sense by looking at the min cell voltage and comparing it to the next lowest. A massive difference in voltage would be a warning sign.
I spent a few years working with EV scooters (2kWh 72v 18650's). Occasionally packs would report low voltages from one of the parallel chains, when individually measured often only one cells showed 0v.
The remaining cells were discharge tested to verify capacity, most of the time they were just as health as other cells in the pack. Other times there was reduction in capacity or loss of voltage over time.
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None of this is of any use to me.
Technically speaking, not much can happen because not much current can flow.
For troubleshooting, however, it is a really moronic construction.
Nevertheless, I would be interested in how Zero has connected in detail! The displayed voltage is only the sum of the four cells so the bad defective cell should still have a clearly lower/bad voltage or!!!!
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cIAO A TUTTI , vi comunico che dopo i proiblemi di ricarica della batteria delal mia ds 2017 13 kw che cominciò a dare problemi di ricarica parziale massimo ricaricava al 75% tanto che avevo preso accordi di cambiarla in garanzia con zero . nell'attesa mi sono imbattuto con un ingegnere tedesco , che indicava di ricaricare la batteria tra il 5 e 20% con varie ricariche e, la batteria si sarebbe riportata su valori ottimali oltre il 90%, devo dire che è vero piano piano la batteria diopo varie ricariche si è riportata al 90 - 93%, ora dai primi di gennaio 2021 , sonomvarie ricariche che arriva al 100%.
forse è sensitiva fionito l'anno bisesto malefico del 2020, spera in un buon 2021, comunque sta di fatto che la batteria è tornata come nuova , le autonomie anche con queste temperature piu o meno sullo zero, sono in linea dello storico circa 160 -170 km con una carica . i caricatori sono gli stessi mai cambiati, anche s e si pensava che fossero cotti. bene , io ho scritto per dare delle speranze a chi è nella mia stessa situazione , mai arrendersi la batteria si può rigenerare , fate come me . cordiali saluti e buon anno nuovo.
per gl'americanio .... state lontani dal campidoglio ;D 8)
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Nobody has publicly rebuilt a zero battery. No one on this forum seems to have the expertise to do so but more importantly it really doesn't make sense too.
There is one person who replaced their entire monolith with nissan leaf cells, but in the newer bikes you would need to rewire the bike without the mainboard since it relies on communication with the BMS.
As already stated the batteries are all potted. They're really not reasonably disassemble/reassemble-able. For all intents and purposes you should really treat your monolith as a single part, and if it has issues then that part should be replaced. Even if you could reasonably replace a block of parallel cells, first you would have to source the exact farasis cells, which would be difficult since they don't seem to be available to buy for individuals. But these new cells would not be matched to the rest of your used pack, which would create problems for the longevity of the entire pack.
Is your battery still within the 5 year warranty period? This would be the best avenue to pursue. If it is not, this repair probably isn't worth pursuing.
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Reading this thread I am a little concerned about the mindset and the longevity strategy of Zero. I have invested €27,000 in my fully loaded Zero SR/S. This translates to $32K. I plan to ride this bike the next 20 years. Fully understand, that this requires to repair or replace parts or the entire battery at some point in time. I am expecting, that Zero have or will have a long term strategy to support this wish.
Nothing wrong if a repair or replacement is a up to $10K investment. If this is required every 10 years this is still a good long term investment.
Best case would be, if Zero plans battery replacement into the design. I am guessing, that battery technology will improve the next 10 years and Zero bikes at this point in time may have 20 kWh or more. Why not offer this capacity as replacement to older bikes? Zero has to ensure compatibility of connectors and needs to upgrade the BMS. This would make it really easy to me to swallow a $10K pill.
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Reading this thread I am a little concerned about the mindset and the longevity strategy of Zero. I have invested €27,000 in my fully loaded Zero SR/S. This translates to $32K. I plan to ride this bike the next 20 years. Fully understand, that this requires to repair or replace parts or the entire battery at some point in time. I am expecting, that Zero have or will have a long term strategy to support this wish.
Nothing wrong if a repair or replacement is a up to $10K investment. If this is required every 10 years this is still a good long term investment.
Best case would be, if Zero plans battery replacement into the design. I am guessing, that battery technology will improve the next 10 years and Zero bikes at this point in time may have 20 kWh or more. Why not offer this capacity as replacement to older bikes? Zero has to ensure compatibility of connectors and needs to upgrade the BMS. This would make it really easy to me to swallow a $10K pill.
I think the longevity of the battery has proven to be pretty good. I'd expect 10 years out of the majority of zero batteries. But the cost of replacement is an issue, and the availability of that replacement is also an issue.
From what I've gathered, a replacement 14.4 monolith is approximately $6k. Plus labor. Since the 3.6 FXS module is 3K, we can reasonably assume that a lot of that cost is the actual labor of manufacturing the pack and not just the battery cells, so even as cells drop in cost I expect this cost to stay reasonably high.
Unfortunately I don't see zero changing their setup, the monolith is going to be a single part for the foreseeable future for several reasons. It just makes too much sense to fully pot the battery. To build it in another way would make it far easier to damage the battery from heat, vibration, or impact and hugely shorten the lifespan of the battery, as well as likely require the battery to be far less energy dense.
This is really a reality with almost all EV's. Even in packs like Tesla or Chevy where the batteries are not fully potted, the reality is that if you have an issue with the battery, you are replacing the whole pack. It is not reasonable or feasible to go through all the labor (and risk!) of opening up the pack to test and replace individual cells or even individual modules, and then have the resulting battery have mismatched cells of different capacities and internal resistance. The cells in the whole pack need to be matched.
20 years down the line? Yeah, you're looking at an expensive replacement. Hopefully cell costs and manufacturing processes have improved by then so that it's a less costly investment, but bottom line is it's going to be a significant cost. Again, this is one of the drawbacks of all EV's. It is why they drop so quickly in value compared to their gas counterparts, and part of why most EV owners do not intend to drive them for 20 years but rather drive them for a few years, sell them, and upgrade to something newer. Something we should really consider if we're buying an EV to be "green". Also something to consider in the supposed cost-savings of EV ownership. How much fuel and maintenance do you save in those 20 years with your EV, and does that savings justify the expensive battery replacement down the road?
My bigger worry is that zero, as a small manufacturer, will cut off support for replacement batteries for older models. In reality we don't know if Zero is even going to exist in 20 years. This could be true of small batch gas bikes as well. You can't assume any bike that sells, say, less than 10k worth of bikes a year, that needs specialized parts, to have parts availability 20 years down the road. There's just no guarantee of that kind of long term support. But with gas bikes you can find and cannibalize another bike from the same year. You're not going to find another healthy zero battery from a parts bike in 20 years, which makes your options more limited or possibly non-existent. Even if the repair is easy and available, how many people are going to pay more than what their bike is worth for a battery replacement instead of upgrading to a newer bike?
Again, something worthwhile to consider for those of us purchasing these bikes in an attempt to stay green. Every vehicle has an end of life, but long term EV's will reach a point where repair is impossible or prohibitively expensive long before a comparable ICE vehicle, and that is going to contribute to waste/pollution in both production of replacement EV's and the discarding of the outgoing vehicles.
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We don't know if EVs are on average more or less long lived than ICE vehicles. They simply haven't been around long enough.
But the early information says that while the oldest ICE vehicles continue to run... the average EV lasts longer. Some of that may be due to which customers bought them, but some of that seems to be that there's no chance of catastrophic mechanical engine failure leading to having it parted out.
While there aren't many of the earliest Zeros running about, there seem to be a fair number of the post 2013 bikes still on the road. And bikes, as a rule, don't tend to live that long anyhow.
-Crissa
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We don't know if EVs are on average more or less long lived than ICE vehicles. They simply haven't been around long enough.
But the early information says that while the oldest ICE vehicles continue to run... the average EV lasts longer.
-Crissa
Battery degradation puts a set life on EV's though. It will vary, but 10 years later there are already a large number of Nissan Leaf cars that have degraded past the point of usability, and they are being scrapped as replacing the battery doesn't make economic sense. The oldest of these cars are 10 years old. It likely won't be long until there are very few of these cars in use, despite being the #1 selling EV for a number of years.
Most modern EV's have much better battery systems than the 1st gen leaf, with active thermal management, better cell chemistries, and other improvements that increase their lifespan. But the batteries still have a set lifespan, and will invariably need to be replaced.
Like you said, the earliest ICE motors still run today. We already know the batteries in our EV's will not last the same amount of time, we don't have to wait for the overall EV reliability data to understand this. We also know that long before the batteries cease to function, they will lose useable capacity to the point where the vehicle is not as useful as it once was.
ICE might be more likely to have catastrophic failure, but this is not a terribly common occurrence, and nearly anything short of a catastrophic failure can be fixed and replaced for much cheaper than a 14-60kwh battery pack.
I'm not saying that EV's absolutely have shorter lifespans than ICE, just that the battery degradation issue makes maintaining an EV over several decades very different from ICE vehicles and potentially much more difficult and expensive, or at the very least, the costs are much less spread out, as instead of replacing a clutch or other worn out part every couple of years, you spend a lot of money on a new battery once or twice. But most owners, when faced with that huge one-time expense, will elect to move on to another vehicle. Which creates the potential for more vehicle turnover. This isn't an argument to dismiss the benefits of EV's, just something to take into consideration as we buy them.
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As I have written here several times, I did not want to replace a single cell! I only wanted to remove the single cell block of the four cell blocks with the defective cell. The Zero will then only be operated with three cell blocks. Unfortunately, troubleshooting is not so easy with Zero's ingenious BMS design.
I hope the design of the new SRF/S battery is better thought out by Zero otherwise I feel sorry for the Zero dealers and owners of the new generation already.
If the owner still had a warranty, he would go to Zero and not to me, wouldn't he? ::)
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As I have written here several times, I did not want to replace a single cell! I only wanted to remove the single cell block of the four cell blocks with the defective cell.
Oh. Well, then you'd have to reprogram the BMS, as it needs to know how to balance the cells it does have. And then you need to program the Mainboard on the bike to know the battery configuration.
It's not really simple and Zero doesn't let us do that anyhow. They did make bikes like mine with one three battery segments in them, but had some sort of difficulty with them and stopped. It sounded, from the tone of voice I've heard, that it was more than just 'too many models' juggling, but I don't really know.
Battery degradation puts a set life on EV's though. It will vary, but 10 years later there are already a large number of Nissan Leaf cars...
Leafs have a very specific degradation that's different from basically all other EVs, though. They have a specific battery configuration that made it susceptible to uneven cell degradation due to uneven heat dissipation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS_l0qMgUv0
Next, ICE cars have an expiration date, too. Motorcycles are no different really, except they have a higher chance of actually being damaged since they're exposed to the weather. But this is actually a bonus for electric bikes, since their parts don't care if they're frozen or tipped over, and it's usually just connectors that fail from water damage (and not like ICE bikes don't have computers now a days!).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS_l0qMgUv0
So no, we don't know that ICE will survive longer than EVs, but the evidence is no, they will not. And the lifetime of most motorcycles is not very long to begin with.
Zeros don't see the kind of temperature abuse that Leafs did. They also can cool themselves off easier, being without a big body over the battery. They don't have the battery in a weird shape which leads to some parts getting warmer. And they don't support DC charging.
Maybe we'll see some problems with the Energicas. But I sorta doubt it, as they're designed to cool themselves off and tell the rider right away when things are too hot.
-Crissa
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Crissa, I mentioned that the leaf was different from most other batteries, but it still sets the example of what can happen. It's the worst case scenario that we've already seen, but the concept will still happen to other BEV's over a longer timeframe. I don't expect any other EV batteries to degrade as quickly, but I do expect them to degrade and fail over time.
Even in no weather, left in a garage for 100 years a gas bike can be cleaned out and started again with minimal cost.
A BEV, even if maintained at a decent storage voltage, will not do the same, and the repair costs and logistics are entirely different. This is the problem I am talking about that is unique to EV's.
Again, I'm not saying ICE cars invariably outlive EV's, I agree with you that we don't have enough evidence yet. I'm just pointing out this specific downside to EV longevity over the decades and should merely be considered. The other aspects you mentioned, like catastrophic failure in ICE vehicles and how fewer moving parts means breakdowns are way less likely in EV's are also important to consider.
The video you linked to on rust is fascinating, but only relevant if you're one of the people specifically dealing with that issue. The video cites 22 million people effected, out of the 227 million drivers in the US. This is a specific problem that only effects 9% of the driving population. The other 91% can have vehicles that last much longer that are not destroyed by the elements in this way. If you are one of those people, yeah I'd personally be way more worried about rust and elements than my battery longevity. But for the rest of us, it has no bearing on this conversation.
Saying bikes "don't tend to live that long anyhow" is dismissive and irrelevant. Plenty of bikes crash and wear in the elements, but plenty are well taken care of and preserved, these are the cases where what I'm talking about makes a difference, but even beyond that I'm talking about a problem that effects EV's as a whole, not just bikes.
As I have written here several times, I did not want to replace a single cell! I only wanted to remove the single cell block of the four cell blocks with the defective cell. The Zero will then only be operated with three cell blocks. Unfortunately, troubleshooting is not so easy with Zero's ingenious BMS design.
I hope the design of the new SRF/S battery is better thought out by Zero otherwise I feel sorry for the Zero dealers and owners of the new generation already.
If the owner still had a warranty, he would go to Zero and not to me, wouldn't he? ::)
Sorry centra12, I misread your post and latched onto the "rebuild" aspect of it.
Unfortunately without access to zero's dealers tools this is unlikely to work.
Even if you could tell the BMS and mainboard what battery is connected, you could have other issues if the bike was designed around having 4 packs and you go down to 3, you'll be pulling more amps per cell which may be above their rating and that could lead to overheating and more failures.
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My son-in-law will not buy anything new. Right now he is riding a 1986 Honda VFR700FII. Every time it stops running he bodges a fix for it, almost always it is an electrical problem. The bike currently has 125,000 miles on the clock and it is doubtful that he will ever retire the bike. He just loves fixing junk that breaks. Apparently it is a challenge that has turned into a hobby. ??? He has no interest in riding my daughter's 2014 Zero.
His current car is a oil-leaking 1988 Honda CRX.
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The life expectancy of a motorcycle is barely over ten years. The average life of cars is fifteen years, and four times as many miles.
Worrying about battery life? Really?
-Crissa
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My first car is nearly 30 years old and still running strong.
I grew up going to swap meets with a culture of people driving and preserving cars that are now 50-100 years old. With my dad swapping between a dozen or so classic cars that were relatively easy to maintain. He still has a 50 year old Cadillac that needs nothing but some upholstery repair.
Yes, I care about battery longevity, whether that be in a car or a bike. Vehicles that are well made and well cared for should be able to last through the decades.
Average lifespan is a combination of a huge variety of factors, from poor maintenance to crashes, to weather, to critters getting in and damaging wiring, to when insurance says it's "totaled", etc. It's obvious that the average lifespan of a motorcyle is going to be less than a car, motorcyclists crash more often and those crashes total bikes more often, plus they're more exposed. Those averages are not indicative of optimal lifespan, which his what I'm talking about. But if you see your vehicles as expendable, disposable objects, you go ahead and do that.
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When I was in high school one of friends father had a business that he ran out of is garage restoring Stanley Steamers. Very large and impressive vehicles that seemed to cover the neighborhood with fog when he would test drive the vehicles. However they did take a while to get started.
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Those Stanleys are really neat cars. They had a whopping 20hp. 10-12 minutes to start the engine. We certainly have come a long way in 100 years!
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My first car is nearly 30 years old and still running strong.
...And you're way outside the curve. Your worries here seem misplaced. How many pounds and dollars of materials has that car consumed in its life? And you're worried about the battery?
-Crissa
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I don't get why you're being so antagonistic on this front.
Never said I was worried. I said I care about longevity. I said this is something to consider.
If you just want to talk inside of the "curve", this is going to be an issue for people who operate inside of it. OP has a battery issue outside of warranty but inside the curve of expected life, and the solution is extremely costly since they'd likely have to buy an entirely new monolith, and in their case it's not unlikely that the price of a replacement battery is more the value of the bike, before labor. They're not the only ones who have had premature battery failure on a Zero. As long as the battery warranty does not outlast the expected life of the vehicle, whether you estimate that as 10 years or 20, battery longevity and the cost and availability of repairs are a legitimate issue to take into account when you buy an EV. Even if it will be an issue for a small percentage of owners, it is still worth considering that you could be one of those owners.
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caza, this is exactely my point. Crissa wrote "...And bikes, as a rule, don't tend to live that long anyhow.". That might be true in your region. In Germany it is a wrong statement. Sorry, about the German reference: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/154515/umfrage/durchschnittliches-alter-der-kraftraeder-in-deutschland/#:~:text=Ab%20dem%201.,in%20Deutschland%2018%2C4%20Jahre.
It basically says, that in 2020 the average age of a bike, that is registered and licensed in Germany is 18.4 years. This is not the average age of a bike, that gets scraped. It is the average age of all bikes on the street in Germany including my brand new Zero.
Motorbikes in Germany are used as hobby, will get ridden only at good and warm weather and are well protected in winter. Due to this, the low average mileage (average in Germany for motorbikes is 2349 km/year compared to 14.259 km with cars) and the good build quality of the very popular BMW bikes, a 25 years old BMW bike is still very useful. I know this since I sold my 25 years old BMW last year. It looked like new and I got a good price for it.
I therefore think my ask for a 20 years life is a very reasonable request. Just to be clear: I don't expect, that the battery will last that long. But the battery is a $6K part. That is expensive, but looking at $32K bike value it is absolutely reasonable. The new battery should give the bike another 10 years of useful life. As I wrote: I am expecting, that Zero has a longevity strategy, that ensures battery replacements for older bikes. Since battery technology improves over time, I am also expecting, that new batteries will have more capacity than the original one.
Tesla did exactly this with the Roadster 3.0 and increased the battery for older cars from 56kWh to 70 kWh. This is the reason, why Tesla Roadsters are that popular and still sell for >$70K in Germany although more than 10 years old.
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Just because I took the plate off the bike does not mean it does not exist. Fortunately the property tax is only generated from the registered ones. Generally with a car or pick up when the plate comes off either some one else will register it or it goes to the scrap yard or sits outside never to move under it's own power.
There was a thread on here about stolen motorcycles and the brands were really strange and upon further investigation mopeds were counted.
After 12 years or so the body and frame or one or the other is shot. The drivers seat and door hinges as well. The motorcycle generally isn't used in salt road conditions. I suppose there is a class of bikes with fairings and or body covering pieces that can be essentially totalled pretty easily.
Proprietary battery, that is really the only choice at this point.
On the other hand the local Honda motorcycle place won't work on anything over 8 years old. At least that was the case a few years ago. My street bike is a 1993 Yamaha GTS my pick up is a 2012 and Zero has essentially dis owned 2012 and earlier from my reading on here.
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Average age of bikes is 18 years?
That's astounding. Also, average is not median, and it doesn't say anything about mileage, and it's a two-year expiration date, are their a bunch of permanent tags in the database? I'm not going to pay them money to find out.
-Crissa
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I therefore think my ask for a 20 years life is a very reasonable request. Just to be clear: I don't expect, that the battery will last that long. But the battery is a $6K part. That is expensive, but looking at $32K bike value it is absolutely reasonable. The new battery should give the bike another 10 years of useful life. As I wrote: I am expecting, that Zero has a longevity strategy, that ensures battery replacements for older bikes. Since battery technology improves over time, I am also expecting, that new batteries will have more capacity than the original one.
I think the question of value is more complex than that though, because you have to consider market value of the bike at the time of replacement. Sure the purchase price was 32k, but it lost a bunch of value just riding it off the lot. Once you've reached a battery failure outside of warranty, that 32k value is a distant dream.
If say, you're replacing the battery after 10 years, your bike has depreciated drastically. It's likely worth closer to 4. If the battery costs 6k+labor, it's very likely you'll be able to buy say, a 3 or 4 year old used bike that is superior to your 10 year old bike with a brand new battery.
In the OP's case, the bike can't even be 10 years old, it apparently has one bad cell, and the result is a bike that is effectively totaled.
So to me the bigger issue for longevity is not just zero having a strategy, is that it will often not be financially viable to replace your battery and get that 20 years of life out of the vehicle. I'm sure OP could order a replacement battery for Zero today, but more likely they would spend the same money on a used, but newer zero. This effectively shortens the optimal lifespan of the bikes to be limited by the lifespan of the battery. Until the price of a replacement pack goes down to well under the value of the vehicles they are revitalizing, actual battery replacements will be rare.
We've seen this already, with a number of Zero XU's and similar 1st gen bikes floating around on craigslist and classifieds, unused and unrestored, because it isn't viable to spend the money on replacing the battery. "Everything works! Just needs a battery!"
I would expect people to change out their tesla roadster batteries as it's a 100K sportscar and a modern "classic" that will mostly retain its value. That is not the case for zeros, and honestly not the case for almost any other EV out on the wild.
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The main problem is the poor construction of Zero! Every Makita 18 Volt Duo System has a better battery and BMS th
an Zero.
During the construction, no attention was paid either to repair or to the operation of a "new cell stand with an old cell stand". A 5-year warranty is of little use.
If the entire battery has to be replaced in all electric vehicles just because a single cell is defective then good night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Zero also does not offer an exchange battery (old for new) at a reduced price.
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Potting the cells has a lot of benefits. It increases energy density, mechanical reliability, decreases weight, increases impact protection, prevents water ingress, etc.
I don't think they're poorly constructed, but they are not designed for cell level repair, the are designed for maximum energy density in the smallest space/weight.
A lot of electric cars use cells that can be replaced, but noone I know is doing that. Teslas use repairable batteries, but I don't think they will replace a cell, they swap the whole pack. I'd be surprised if anyone swaps cells.
This is because cells and thus batteries age in complex and unpredictable ways. Adding a new cell would cause performance issues, over stressing the new cell because its impedance is lower, current draw is higher etc.You need every cell and group of cells to perform almost identically to have a good battery.
Used/bad cells/batteries have little to no value, and Zero has to pay to recycle them. It makes sense they wouldn't offer money for an old one. They're not huge either, so its not like they can afford to absorb the cost, or have a large pile of used but good batteries around.
Really this boils down to cost of the battery and longevity of the battery. Cost is high, so replacement is expensive. EV Batteries are built in clean rooms using extremely precise equipment, they're not easy to make. Scale will help with that, but its a very difficult problem. Zero, unlike Tesla, has to trade some longevity(better cooling/heating, extra cells, etc.) for weight and size. Treated right, a Zero battery should last more than 5 years, probably closer to 10. Some people here have seen that. But all batteries will experience some degradation and will eventually fail.
In short, electric motorcycles as a class are unlikely to be anywhere near the longevity of a gas bike{assuming you keep replacing parts} or an ice car. Until batteries improve or get significantly cheaper, that's the reality. The only question then is will the reduced cost of maintenance and electricity outweigh the longer lifespan, gas costs, and more expensive maintenance of an ice bike. I'll let someone else do that math, but the answer right now is probably it depends.
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I see it quite differently 8)
With BMW and VW, for example, the cell packs can be exchanged individually, even with my C EVO.
In the case of a defect, however, most people will buy a new battery with more range or the same battery for a better exchange price.
Zero has designed a bad one-way lighter with their battery.
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You can't repair the cells in a Tesla, either. Modules were designed to be replaced, but no one is doing that, either: They replace the entire pack at the same time and the cells are sent to a second life. Sometimes the modules are used on the secondary market.
Having the batteries in potting material increases safety and durability to acceptable levels. Not to mention weight and range: The tighter you can pack your cells, the more range the entire unit has.
No one thinks of a gasoline bike as being 'totaled' because it'll need $6000 of gasoline to go another 75,000 miles of riding.
-Crissa
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You can't repair the cells in a Tesla, either. Modules were designed to be replaced, but no one is doing that, either: They replace the entire pack at the same time and the cells are sent to a second life. Sometimes the modules are used on the secondary market.
Yes. This is exactly what I've been saying. The battery being essentially one, expensive part to replace changes the effect on the lifespan of the entire vehicle, since the vehicle is much more tied to one internal part, and that cost can dwarf the value of the vehicle.
Having the batteries in potting material increases safety and durability to acceptable levels. Not to mention weight and range: The tighter you can pack your cells, the more range the entire unit has.
Yes, I'm not really suggesting there's a better alternative. Making individual cells replaceable has a lot of downsides, including what you said but also just more possible points of failure. Again, I was never saying that EV's should totally change to conform to how gas cars work, but just that this aspect of their longevity should be considered.
No one thinks of a gasoline bike as being 'totaled' because it'll need $6000 of gasoline to go another 75,000 miles of riding.
Again, that's kind of the point. Ongoing fuel costs are easy to justify over the long life of a vehicle since it is not one lump sum. These are entirely different costs that are justified differently, with different risks as well. If my car is 10 years old and I have to spend $30 on a tank of gas to drive the next 400 miles, that's an easy decision to make every 400 miles. If my car is 10 years old and I have to spend $6000 + labor on a new battery install at which point my car is only worth $5400, that is a daunting financial decision. This can, and has, resulted in EV's with shortened lifespans because 1 single part, the battery, has died prematurely.
For almost everyone who buys an EV, the effect is this: Your vehicle's lifespan is directly tied to the lifespan of one expensive part.
This is not to say EV's aren't worthwhile or economical in the long run, it's just something to consider as different when buying an EV, especially if you're used to ICE vehicles that are comparatively easier and generally less expensive to maintain over multiple decades.
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But a bike without a battery isn't worth anything but a bike with a battery is worth $5400.
EVs can't be priced only on age, they're priced on battery life. Just like a car with a trashed interior won't get you the full price, or a flawless old car will give you more for it.
Saying it's totalled without a battery is just not thinking clearly. The battery is what makes it worth anything at all.
-Crissa
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The only reason Zero has potted the battery cells is because they are not capable of designing and manufacturing a sealed battery case.
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The only reason Zero has potted the battery cells is because they are not capable of designing and manufacturing a sealed battery case.
There are several reasons for potting.
The resin helps transfer heat the the outer casing. If they weren't potted they would likely need an active cooling system which is more complex, more costly, and take up more room, resulting in a more expensive, fail-prone battery with less energy density. Potting also gives the pack better shock absorbing abilities which on a motorcycle is pretty necessary.
If zero was working with a huge amount of space, like the skateboard under a tesla, then potting wouldn't be as valuable. and they could approach it in a different way. But potting their pouch cells is a very efficient way to get the energy density Zero needs while still being robust enough for a motorcycle.
For comparison, the 1st gen chevy volt batteries don't use any potting, but they're not even in the same ballpark for energy density as Zeros batteries from the same years. Chevy was using at least 5x the space for the same capacity, and still needed a much more advanced thermal system that took up even more space. The coolant manifold on the volt's 16kwh battery by itself is about 1/3 of Zero's entire 13kwh monolith from the same year.
To say that potting was done for waterproofing alone is just not true, though waterproofing is another good reason.
But a bike without a battery isn't worth anything but a bike with a battery is worth $5400.
EVs can't be priced only on age, they're priced on battery life. Just like a car with a trashed interior won't get you the full price, or a flawless old car will give you more for it.
Saying it's totalled without a battery is just not thinking clearly. The battery is what makes it worth anything at all.
-Crissa
That's what I'm saying though. The battery provides almost all of the value of an EV. This is very different than an ICE vehicle which while notably more complex, individual parts are far less likely to be the entire value of the vehicle.
So if the battery goes, it's totaled. Because the battery is where the majority of the value is. You're acting like those are conflicting statements, they're not. This is precisely the thing I'm talking about that makes EV's value and longevity unique compared to ICE vehicles. Ice vehicles do not have the majority of their value in a single part, and their more valuable parts actively degrade or depreciate at the rate batteries do. This makes the act of maintaining the two different vehicle types over multiple decades look very different, as an ICE vehicle is more likely going to have many smaller repairs spread out over time, while the EV is more likely to have one or two huge problems at single points on the timeline.
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But it's not totaled, because you can just pop in another battery and go.
It's not even that complex of a deal. Takes a little more time than an oil change but as parts go, it's mostly heavy and needs to talk to a computer to finish syncing with the bike. Definitely not so much work comparatively since it's supposed to then last for another 150k miles.
-Crissa
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That's bullshit.
All major BEV manufacturers have sealed battery cases, but Zero does not.
More and more customers know this and are increasingly deciding against this inadequate technology.
At the Zero dealer in our area who also sells Energica, the sales figures for Zero-Energica are 1-5.
Not without reason the annual production of Energica sold out and of Zero?
With the 3 generation and the same outdated technology Zero has dug his grave.
I hope Zero just not the Energica no 15k motorcycle with a 14kw battery on the market brings. That would be their immediate death sentence in Europe :o
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Sealed battery cases have to have expansion space.
And Tesla's cells are potted, too, it's just a foamy stuff instead of a sticky stuff. Their structural battery will be in a rigid matrix. No cell replacement there, either.
I don't even know what people think they're arguing now.
-Crissa
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Just because Tesla does it this way doesn't mean it's the best.
Tesla has also like Zero never really earned money.
In addition, Elon was at VW, apparently he is aware that the lead is dwindling ;D
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My son-in-law has a 1985 Kawasaki GPz550 sitting in his driveway with a cover over it. The bike hasn't run in many years and is now being used as a home for mice, spiders and various pieces of rotting rubber and plastic. So there is a use for old ICE motorcycles after the give up running. ::)
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My son-in-law has a 1985 Kawasaki GPz550 sitting in his driveway with a cover over it. The bike hasn't run in many years and is now being used as a home for mice, spiders and various pieces of rotting rubber and plastic. So there is a use for old ICE motorcycles after the give up running. ::)
That is a topic for another day, especially if your daughter feeds the birds. The gasoline tank might have some value though.
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But it's not totaled, because you can just pop in another battery and go.
It's not even that complex of a deal. Takes a little more time than an oil change but as parts go, it's mostly heavy and needs to talk to a computer to finish syncing with the bike. Definitely not so much work comparatively since it's supposed to then last for another 150k miles.
-Crissa
A totaled vehicle is one where the cost of the repair exceeds the value of the vehicle. How easy or complex the repair is, is only relevant in terms of labor cost, but a totaled vehicle is an economic function. So even if the bike is in otherwise pristine, perfect condition, and the labor is 1hr of easy work, if the cost of the battery is more than the value of the bike, it is totaled.
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A new electric bike without a battery is just as similarly worthless because the battery essential to the bike.
This 'this pile of parts has to be more valuable without any one part' thing literally does not make sense here.
-Crissa
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If Zero sold the single battery pack like BMW (1875€ with tax for 94AH) the above mentioned Zero could easily be repaired for 2000-2500€.
The battery can be removed in 30 minutes and the leaking sheet metal covers can also be dismantled in 15 minutes.
But as it is, the bike is just a piece of hazardous waste!
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The evolution c has half the range os a Zero S,
-Crissa
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A new electric bike without a battery is just as similarly worthless because the battery essential to the bike.
This 'this pile of parts has to be more valuable without any one part' thing literally does not make sense here.
-Crissa
A new bike is guaranteed to have a battery, and a warranty to protect the function and value of that battery, what are you even talking about?
There is a practical reality that batteries are going to fail and it will be prohibitively expensive to replace them for the majority of EV owners.
Nothing "has to be" anything, that's just the reality of EV costs. The battery is expensive, it can and will fail (sometimes because of a single cell!), and that totals the vehicle. This is a very different financial reality than ICE vehicles. That is all.
If Zero sold the single battery pack like BMW (1875€ with tax for 94AH) the above mentioned Zero could easily be repaired for 2000-2500€.
The battery can be removed in 30 minutes and the leaking sheet metal covers can also be dismantled in 15 minutes.
But as it is, the bike is just a piece of hazardous waste!
This is one of the nice things about the modular FXS, as those 3.6kwh batteries are about 3K USD, which is far easier to justify compared the value of the bike. Someone with a 7.2 modular could easily replace a single module. I do agree that multiple modules is a good way to go to make the bike more serviceable. It would be wise for Zero to at least have an optional version of that modularity for their bigger bikes.
What is the actual KWH, not just AH, of that BMW battery at that price? Which vehicle are you talking about? The BMW C-Evolution (only electric BMW bike I'm aware of) has the entire battery pack as a structural member of the scooter and is presumably far more labor to remove and replace than the zero's relatively simple bolt-in monolith.
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A new electric bike without a battery is just as similarly worthless because the battery essential to the bike.
This 'this pile of parts has to be more valuable without any one part' thing literally does not make sense here.
-Crissa
I would not say it is worthless since bikes tip over and crash, hit objects hard enough to damage rims, etc. so it has some value.
From the aspect of the definiton of totaled as crash insurance adjuster why argue? After the vehicle is totaled in a crash some folks talk of buying it off the insurance company. So totaled can have value.
I have wondered about getting a lighter battery for my KTM. It has 5 parallel sets of 72 cells in series. For my purposes 3 sets would make it lighter and since I really only ride it on 100 acre places range isn't an issue, would be much easier to get out from under when I tip over. Too bad the discussion did not go down that track.
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There is even less info on the KTM's construction than Zero's, but if those packs are indeed configured like that you might be able to pull a couple packs out and still have a working bike. It depends on how the BMS is configured and integrated with the rest of the bike.
The concern then would be current draw. You'd start pulling almost double the current from your remaining parallel packs, which it likely not what they're rated for. You'd need to have the datasheet for the cells and know what your continuous and peak current draw is on the bike.
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The c evo has three 12S modules. I'm not worried about the stability, as BMW has already had experience with the I3, which has the same batteries. According to the workshop, 69AW is charged for battery replacement. The battery change can only be repaired at special service points.
But with Zero's dealer density, it's the same, except that BMW's service centres certainly know their job.
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Telling me they are 12s modules doesn't tell me what your actual capacity you are getting for the price, this was my question.
Is it 1875€ for a single 12s, 94ah module? Assuming 3.6v nominal cells, with a 4.2v max, that's a 4.7kwh max module. So 398€/KWH. $480 USD
Compare to Zeros 14.4kwh at a supposed $6000 (not confirmed) price, which gets you about $416/kwh.
So the pricing overall isn't much different, but the C-evo having the valuable advantage that you could replace a single module at a time.
I don't know what 69aw is, is that a currency?
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Of course the Ah at 4.2 volts refers to what else!!!
At BMW, AW is the term for "work value".
12AW are one hour
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Depending on the cell chemistry used, they could be 3.2v nominal with 3.6v full charged. If that was the case the same module would be 4kwh instead of 4.7kwh. That's a significant difference especially with multiple modules on the bike.
I always find it better to refer to battery modules by their total KWH. If you only give one variable, whether voltage or AH, we don't have the full picture. We need total capacity and clarification on if it's the max capacity that is often advertised or the nominal capacity.
So at 69aw we're talking just under 6 hours of labor. Makes sense considering how much they have to disassemble to get to the modules:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrE2Q4culaU
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I have been involved in electric mobility for more than 10 years now and the Ah were always specified at 4.2 volts.
LiFePo4 technology has only just arrived with Tesla.
Why should the battery be opened? It can't run full of water like Zero's because it's sealed?
An ISO error, which is common with Zero, is also unlikely with this system.
Unfortunately, there is a mistake in the numbers and it should be 96AW. ::)
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I’m just not going to assume the chemistry of a battery I’m not familiar with. First you said 94ah with no other info. That didn’t tell me the capacity without also knowing the voltage. Then 12s. Took 3 comments to get the full picture instead of simply the kwh.
Why should it be opened? Are we not talking about replacing a single module? Would that not require opening up the entire battery casing to get to the individual models?
8hrs yeah that’s a lot of labor.
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Isolation errors don't occur on Zeros due to battery potting or a sealed battery case, it is the electrical connections to the battery and cabling/connectors that are the culprit.
On the newer platforms the earlier bikes had a waterproof connector coating that didn't always work. I've replaced a couple spiderbuses with the new ones and had no more complaints. I hear they're improving that still further with the next model.
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I am reassured that BMW did such a good job and protected the battery in the best possible way.
What are 1,000€ in labour and a one battery pack when it runs again? Better than Zero, which has to throw a €15,000 motorbike in the rubbish because of such a fault.
What does a battery pack with tax really cost as a spare part at Zero, and I don't mean speculation.
https://www.leebmann24.de/bmw-ersatzteile/view/btdetail/?series=k17&typ=0c03&og=05&hg=61&bt=61_4281
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Yeah, waterproofing isn't an exact science anyhow. Condensation, splashing, capillary action, mixed with vibration, motion, and hydrophilic reactions makes it... Not simple.
You hope you did what needed to be done but maybe something gets scraped or twisted a way you didn't predict, or some other panel has water hit it harder than you designed for...
...Which is why most battery units are sealed and/or potted in hydrophobic materials.
-Crissa
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What are 1,000€ in labour and a one battery pack when it runs again?
That really contradicts this:
Better than Zero, which has to throw a €15,000 motorbike in the rubbish because of such a fault.
If the bike is worth 15, 1 is hardly totaling it.
-Crissa
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I am reassured that BMW did such a good job and protected the battery in the best possible way.
What are 1,000€ in labour and a one battery pack when it runs again? Better than Zero, which has to throw a €15,000 motorbike in the rubbish because of such a fault.
What does a battery pack with tax really cost as a spare part at Zero, and I don't mean speculation.
https://www.leebmann24.de/bmw-ersatzteile/view/btdetail/?series=k17&typ=0c03&og=05&hg=61&bt=61_4281
As a dealer, I can tell you that we don't make much profit on batteries. I bet Zero doesn't either, as most of their parts seem to have around a 10-20% markup(you should see the markup on some of the other brands :). Zero only assembles the battery cellboxes, so the price is probably set by farasis.
You're also kinda comparing the worst case Zero to the best case BMW. Let's assume that the BMW gets about as much range and performance as a Zero 7.2 longbrick. Battery dies on both.
Zero 7.2 bike:
1.5h labor(pretty easy to swap} 150USD
7.2kW Battery ~3000USD
3150USD
BMW :
6h labor: 600USD labor
1 Battery Module: 2265USD
2856USD
Difference is only 300USD, and that's assuming they only replace one module. BTW, I'm not at all convinced that they would replace a single module on a BMW with any real mileage because they need to be similar impedance and its almost impossible to match a a new battery to an old one. Zero learned this when people tried to add powertanks to older MY bikes or when replacing one module on an fx.
True, if you compare a single module replacement to a 14.4 battery swap, its a lot bigger. But again, I don't think they do that. At the price per kw of Zero batteries and BMW batteries, Zero is winning, and there is less labor.
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This is a good example of how backward Zero is with its battery! The battery is not even actively cooled. We will only replace such a worn battery completely, the CEO must have thought.
Just to remind you, Zero installed the battery cells in the 2012 models without chafing protection and sealing, which then led to fires!
Any normal person with a certain level of expertise would never have implemented such an idiotic design, but Zero would have.
Do you really want to tell me that Zero is the best battery manufacturer in the world overnight and knows everything ;)
My evo always needs 7-15 minutes (1KW) at 3KW charging power to balance the cells, then it switches off completely.
The BMS from Zero cannot do this because it is old and weak.
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This is a good example of how backward Zero is with its battery! The battery is not even actively cooled. We will only replace such a worn battery completely, the CEO must have thought.
Just to remind you, Zero installed the battery cells in the 2012 models without chafing protection and sealing, which then led to fires!
Any normal person with a certain level of expertise would never have implemented such an idiotic design, but Zero would have.
Do you really want to tell me that Zero is the best battery manufacturer in the world overnight and knows everything ;)
Hardly. Zero has made plenty of mistakes, some of which I just mentioned. It's FW and App needs more quality control, it's support is dependent on dealers, and its training could use some work.
The 2012 batteries were the last to not be potted, and they used the same cells in the FX line{which were not recalled). 2008-2011 also are not potted. It just isn't as simple as you make it.
You're trying to fault them for not designing battery modules to be replaceable and I've given you several reasons why nobody actually performs cell or module replacements. Not Zero, Energica, Tesla, GM, or probably even BMW. Just because it can be done doesn't mean it should.
FYI, Zero's 14.4 battery is actually two potted battery modules in one case that could probably be swapped in 6 hours. They don't do it because of the reasons I previously mentioned.
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The real reason Zero does not repair the batteries is probably because they are not worth it, they are burnt out and the main reason is that the dealer network does not have the level to carry out such a repair. That would always end in disaster.
With the evo and I3, work can be done more safely in many areas because they have modules >60 volts, which of course simplifies the repair.
People have thought things through! :)
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BTW, I'm not at all convinced that they would replace a single module on a BMW with any real mileage because they need to be similar impedance and its almost impossible to match a a new battery to an old one. Zero learned this when people tried to add powertanks to older MY bikes or when replacing one module on an fx.
So buying an FX3.6 and another battery in a few years isn't a good idea?
Don't the police and military bikes come with 4 batteries two spares and two to use? I could see having a fleet of these might be pretty easy to get a pair that have quite a bit different amount of use. Do such instructions come with these models to keep the batteries in pairs?
Fran
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They do, and yes. Generally mixing and matching batteries of different ages is bad. Police and gov units buy batteries at the same time as the fleet or replace them all in a batch. This way they all should be fairly similar on age/number of miles.
Generally, if you have say a 2020 battery and a 2016 battery in a bike, you'd expect to see increased wear on the 2020 battery, decreased performance, issues at lower SOC and SOC fluctuations. Just due to things like different battery chemistries and wear levels. It's a bit better recently since the chemistry hasn't changed since 2016MY. but the wear issue is huge,
About a year ago we had a rash of powertank/monolith bikes stranding people because the newer power tank and older monolith discharge at different rates on a ride, and the voltages were too far apart to safely close the contactors once they tried to go again. Software fixes were applied, but the issue remained. Most of those bikes got both their batteries replaced, and Zero started mandating no power tanks for bikes past a certain age.
Generally we advise people to buy 2 modular FX batteries if they want that, and a powertank soon after the monolith for the same reasons. Zero seems to be moving away from the modular FX, I think they stopped selling them in the EU.
I feel bad for the people who's batteries give out outside of warranty. They're expensive, replacing them isn't always cost effective. I'm sure Zero would love to allow us to do cheaper cell box repairs, or charge for refurbishment, it just doesn't seem to be possible with today's battery tech.
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This won't be an issue once there are more EVs in the world and recycling batteries has become more formalized and less haphazard.
Yeah, it's a big cost... But you'll be able to send those older batteries off to their second life or the recycler and subsidize the cost.
Being not repairable here actually makes them much more durable. And lighter. And have more capacity. And the larger unit is more easily replaceable. And there's not much difference in the safety between 60v and 100v.
-Crissa
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The FX models are just further proof that Zero only delivers technical rubbish.
A motorbike with a C-rate like this is simply bullshit!
The rated voltage of my c evo is 133 volts, which is not very high, but still better than the ridiculous 102 volts from Zero.
Zero is also proud of a 900Amper controller on its SRF/S models, which alone shows that they have not understood electric mobility.
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This won't be an issue once there are more EVs in the world and recycling batteries has become more formalized and less haphazard.
Yeah, it's a big cost... But you'll be able to send those older batteries off to their second life or the recycler and subsidize the cost.
Being not repairable here actually makes them much more durable. And lighter. And have more capacity. And the larger unit is more easily replaceable. And there's not much difference in the safety between 60v and 100v.
-Crissa
-Crissa
The statement about voltage only proves that you have absolutely no idea about electricity.
This is about the touch voltage and there is a clear difference between 60 and 100 volts.
Why don't you go to Amazon and buy a reference book on electrics.
Now with Corona is the right time to educate yourself.
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The FX models are just further proof that Zero only delivers technical rubbish.
A motorbike with a C-rate like this is simply bullshit!
This is nuts. The battery in an FX can be charged at 1 C. The battery of the C Evolution is said to be stuck at 0.3C. What are you even talking about? The FX's onboard charger is dinky, that's true. But an FX also weighs less than 1/2 what a C Evolution does.
This is about the touch voltage and there is a clear difference between 60 and 100 volts.
Why don't you go to Amazon and buy a reference book on electrics.
Now with Corona is the right time to educate yourself.
Yeah. You don't know squat, but thanks for pretending you do.
The safety is the same for 60v as for 100v because the tools available don't make a difference between them. I'm not going to need different insulators, or connectors for a 60v line as 100v. Yes, one is almost twice the other but there is no practical difference, I don't want to touch either at the amps these batteries put out.
I don't have a clue what you think you're talking about.
-Crissa
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And another proof that you have no idea about the technology of electric vehicles. The C-rate has nothing to do with the temperature but with the maximum current consumption of the vehicle in relation to the battery size.
The tools for repair are the same, I agree, but the safety requirements are clearly easier at <60 volts.
Even live parts can be touched without protective equipment without getting a fatal shock like at 100 volts.
The series connection of the individual modules is also an advantage during repair. If this is interrupted, you are immediately in the safe area. Try this once with the Zero battery
As I said, try it once at Amazon ???
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And another proof that you have no idea about the technology of electric vehicles. The C-rate has nothing to do with the temperature but with the maximum current consumption of the vehicle in relation to the battery size.
Of course it has to do with temperature.
But I didn't mention temperature.
And I didn't miss how you didn't correct your statement about the FX but instead distracted again with another ad hominem.
Are you done pretending you have authority here?
-Crissa
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The FX models are just further proof that Zero only delivers technical rubbish.
A motorbike with a C-rate like this is simply bullshit!
This is nuts. The battery in an FX can be charged at 1 C. The battery of the C Evolution is said to be stuck at 0.3C. What are you even talking about? The FX's onboard charger is dinky, that's true. But an FX also weighs less than 1/2 what a C Evolution does.
-Crissa
Then you'll just have to express yourself more clearly?!
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The FX models are just further proof that Zero only delivers technical rubbish.
A motorbike with a C-rate like this is simply bullshit!
This is nuts. The battery in an FX can be charged at 1 C. The battery of the C Evolution is said to be stuck at 0.3C. What are you even talking about? The FX's onboard charger is dinky, that's true. But an FX also weighs less than 1/2 what a C Evolution does.
Then you'll just have to express yourself more clearly?!
You literally said C rate, then quoted yourself and I using it, and now you're confused?
-Crissa
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Please inform yourself about the technical terms of electromobility.
If you don't know them, that's not my problem, or are we in nursery here?!
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Is this a pissing match? ::)
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I have no idea what they're on about, Richard.
-Crissa