ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: Richard230 on December 11, 2020, 08:28:17 PM
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Here is the short story. This photo shows how an electric motorcycle might look if it was based upon their new 350cc Meteor chassis. But keep in mind that the Indian motorcycle press is not always the most reliable when it comes to new products that are rumored to being designed by Indian motorcycle manufacturers. So the actual bike, if and when it arrives, might not look like the included illustration: https://www.rushlane.com/royal-enfield-meteor-electric-12386012.html
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Enfield absolutely, definitely will be producing electric motorcycles, and quite soon, too. They will be at the Super Soco end of the market rather than the Energica end, of course, but that's what India needs, and what they're likely to sell the most of everywhere else, too.
Cas :)
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105kph and max range @speed of 120km and I'm in. ( provided acceptable brakes and suspension. And availability in Australia)
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If this is what it is then it looks good! And they're following HD's route on mounting the motor looks like. And these specs look good enough for riding in cities in India :)
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It's nothing more than speculation, the image was created by IndianAutosBlog and is literally just an edited Meteor photo. It still has a gas cap, clutch lever, you can still see part of the chain under the guard despite it being belt drive, and the large finned square part is made using the air cooling fins on the gas version.
The original image for anyone who wants to compare: https://www.thairath.co.th/media/PZnhTOtr5D3rd9ocJNqUovNedPTFBretPdYj9c15Upsxsuu.webp
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Speculation about a bike's details is one thing.
An official announcement that L-E will be launching an actual electric production motorcycle is quite another; that is, not counting electric equivalents of the 50cc/125cc commuter moped/scooters, which are already a dime a dozen in China & elsewhere.
So, something equivalent in power at least to the old 500cc Bullet single (~30BHP) or the current L-E Interceptor twins (~50BHP), with reasonable range.
An announcement like this would be huge, as it would have the potential of being the best-selling e-motorcycle on the planet by far.
However, I haven't seen an announcement. They've said they're working on an electric platform (not really surprising), and the CEO said (https://in.finance.yahoo.com/news/royal-enfield-electric-motorcycles-currently-080632033.html), just a few months ago:
Speaking to MoneyControl, Vinod Dasari, CEO, Royal Enfield stated:
"Electric is something we have been thinking about for quite some time. We are trying to figure out exactly which segment is the right segment for us. Electric is something we take very seriously."
He further added, "It is not about whether electric (mobility) will come or not but it's a question of 'when'. We did make some prototypes, we have looked at several segments and we will be adding to the team in the near future."
That's very far from a specific commitment to an electric model, let alone a concrete product announcement.
Interestingly, another article mentioned that the electric platform development is taking place in the UK, not in India.
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BTW, the Royal Enfield 500 Bullet has been tested at 19 hp at the rear wheel. The top speed of my Bullet is 78 mph, but you probably wouldn't want to go at that speed for very long. ;)
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BTW, the Royal Enfield 500 Bullet has been tested at 19 hp at the rear wheel. The top speed of my Bullet is 78 mph, but you probably wouldn't want to go at that speed for very long. ;)
Did you see what hp was on the certificate of origion. A Yamaha xt250 is 19 sae hp on the certificate of origion.
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So many announcements and rumors, so few real production bikes.
I do hope RE enters the EV market. We need more electric motorcycles in their typical price and power ranges. There's a huge gulf right now between the cheap $2000 Chinese grom clones and the 7-8K production electric motorcycles.
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BTW, the Royal Enfield 500 Bullet has been tested at 19 hp at the rear wheel. The top speed of my Bullet is 78 mph, but you probably wouldn't want to go at that speed for very long. ;)
I was going by written specs; haven't actually ridden a Bullet, tho' I have friends who criss-crossed India with one, and say it felt scary at every speed. :D
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So many announcements and rumors, so few real production bikes.
I do hope RE enters the EV market. We need more electric motorcycles in their typical price and power ranges. There's a huge gulf right now between the cheap $2000 Chinese grom clones and the 7-8K production electric motorcycles.
I think there's a big market even for $8K-$10K commuters with cruising speed of 70mph and range of 60-70mi at that speed -- that would cover commutes with motorways in winter for most people. But nothing like that is currently available. I had hopes for the Evoke Urban Classic /Urban S line (8.5kWh battery, ~20kW motor at $8000-$9000), but they were launched 3 years ago, and AFAICT they're not actually sold anywhere.
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I mean is there a market for that, sure, but the tech doesn't actually hit that price point right now so it's kind of a mute point. You need a big, expensive battery to get that kind of range at that speed. Even most DIY bikes can't hit that kind of range at that speed for that price, and they don't have the costs of labor, warranty service, dealerships, customer service, etc. 70miles at 70mph for 7K is certainly an appealing package, but the prices of the components just aren't there yet.
I was more commenting on the price points currently available. Zero, Cake, and others have bikes in the 7-8K range and above, doing the best they can do with that price point. But the 4-6k price point which is basically entry level for real motorcycles, is pretty much barren. The only bikes in this space tend to be ebikes like the onyx that are not legal motorcycles and cannot be legally ridden on most public roads. I want to see more emotos built to that price point.
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There are actually quite a few bikes in that area, just not from ICE manufacturers. You've got Super Soco, Sur-ron, Horwin, Kolter, and Niu to name a few.
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The only bike you mentioned that's actually available in the USA is the Sur-ron, and it doesn't meet DOT requirements, doesn't have a vin, so it isn't a proper road legal motorcycle. People have been registering them as mopeds but in california at least, this is disingenuous at best because they break both the 35mph and 4hp rules for mopeds. Some sellers sell them limited to 30mph, but at that speed they are really no better than a class 3 ebike that can hit 28mph for half the price IMO.
The Sur-Ron, Huck, Onyx, Monday Gen7, etc are the closest bikes readily available that fit this price point but none of them are properly street legal motorcycles, they all fit into the "loophole" category where their riders essentially are just hoping to not get caught.
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Well, America doesn't really seem to be a good market for lower powered bikes in general.
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I suppose that's true, and it's one of the smaller markets for bikes in general compared to places like india, but it's the place I live and so it's obviously the market I'm personally interested in.
At any rate, there are plenty of small entry level bikes available in the US, but they're all gas. I can buy a bike for 4-5K from almost any major manufacturer, but I can't say the same for electrics. That's all I'm getting at.
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As long as a good battery sells for $6K, you won't, either.
-Crissa
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At any rate, there are plenty of small entry level bikes available in the US, but they're all gas. I can buy a bike for 4-5K from almost any major manufacturer, but I can't say the same for electrics. That's all I'm getting at.
Indian makes a very cheap and very entry level electric motorcycle. (https://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/eftr-jr/#overview)
And very much so on both. Only $750.00.
The problem here is the opposite. It's way too cheap and way too entry level.
-Don- OPCNM, AZ
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At any rate, there are plenty of small entry level bikes available in the US, but they're all gas. I can buy a bike for 4-5K from almost any major manufacturer, but I can't say the same for electrics. That's all I'm getting at.
Indian makes a very cheap and very entry level electric motorcycle. (https://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/eftr-jr/#overview)
And very much so on both. Only $750.00.
The problem here is the opposite. It's way too cheap and way too entry level.
-Don- OPCNM, AZ
That's about as relevant to the discussion as Triumph's Trekker ebike. Less so actually, at least the Triumph is road legal and intended to be used for commuting by adults.
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There are actually quite a few bikes in that area, just not from ICE manufacturers. You've got Super Soco, Sur-ron, Horwin, Kolter, and Niu to name a few.
NIU is a siginficant player in electric P2Ws (powered 2-wheelers), but all the models currently being sold are 50cc equivalents limited to 45 km/h; they have announced the NIU RQi-GT (motorcycle form factor, 30kW, 7kWh battery), but AFAIK it isn't sold yet.
SuperSoco all have motors below 4kW, so I'm discounting them -- top speed is 95 km/h which isn't sufficient for motorway commuting.
The Sur-Ron Storm Bee does have the power, but not the cruising speed (top speed is 110 km/h), and certainly not the range; also it's a dirtbike, so not an optimal form factor (dual-purpose works well for urban commuting; full dirtbikes have too much suspension travel IME).
Ditto Horwin: There will apparently be more powerful bikes, but there even specs available for them yet. They're not currently selling anything >5kW. Ditto Kolter.
Now, it can be argued that the 30BHP I mentioned is overkill -- on an e-motorcycle, the torque matter more.
True; however, 5kW is far too low for my taste. I want any motorcycle I own to be able to accelerate out of its own way (and more importantly, out of the way of a 2-ton 400BHP SUV with attentive driver). 5kW doesn't get you there, not when you're already at 70mph. So maybe 15kW (~20BHP) is enough, but certainly nothing less, and given how cheap electric motors are, the difference in component costs between a 15kW and 20kW is small.
There is also a perception issue; riders who today commute on a Kawa Z400 / Honda NC700X ( (~50HP), aren't going to replace it with something with a 10th of the power. And IMO that's most of the accessible market, at least initially. People who currently don't ride at all are highly unlikely to do motorway-speed commutes just because an electric bike is available. Again, This isn't about pure-urban moped replacement.
All that said, all the companies above (apart from NIU & Evoke) are new in the field, not established motorcycle companies -- IMO most riders wouldn't buy a vehicle from them they need to rely on daily (myself included).
I also had some hopes for the Kymco RevoNEX, but it now looks like the production bike will be a full-on halo sportbike to help sell mopeds & scooters, not a mid-power bike in its own right (it's even going to be manufactured in Italy, because the market is Europe, apparently).
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As long as a good battery sells for $6K, you won't, either.
-Crissa
You can make batteries of any size built your price point. I don't expect a $5K bike to have the same 3.6KWH as a $9K zero FXS. . Likewise I don't expect it to have the same 20kw motor or 85mph top speed. Concessions have to be made to meet the price point. Just like how a $4K Honda Supercub can't compete with a $9k CB650R.
Making those concessions is possible. Again, we see this with the grey-area illegal ebikes like the onyx or the huck (which apparently is adding vins now!) But we just don't see it being done in the more traditional motorcycle market with proper DOT requirements being met.
The Onyx is a bit over $4K, hits 60mph top speed, and has 7.24 HP. Its performance is really close to 125cc ICE motorcycles in its price range though I suspect it's quicker off the line. The base model has a 23ah (not listed so I suspect 72v) battery. It's pretty close to what I'm asking for, except for using bicycle components and not being a proper registered motorcycle. It's not hard to imagine a major manufacturer being able to match the Onyx's specs and price point, but in a proper moto frame so it can be a road legal, proper beginner's motorcycle.
But instead in its price range we have a bunch of illegal or psuedo-legal bikes. Meanwhile you can buy a $1700 Boom Vader and register it on the road, or move all the way up to an FXS for 9K. There's a huge gap in the market for legal, beginner electric motorcycles. I believe this gap being filled would help both with the adoption of electric motorcycles in general and with the problem motorcycling as a whole is having bringing in new riders.
At any rate, there are plenty of small entry level bikes available in the US, but they're all gas. I can buy a bike for 4-5K from almost any major manufacturer, but I can't say the same for electrics. That's all I'm getting at.
Indian makes a very cheap and very entry level electric motorcycle. (https://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/eftr-jr/#overview)
Again, this is part of the problem I'm talking about. We have dirt cheap toy bikes, and 9K full electric motorcycles, but nobody is serving the actual entry level 4-6k price segment.
There are actually quite a few bikes in that area, just not from ICE manufacturers. You've got Super Soco, Sur-ron, Horwin, Kolter, and Niu to name a few.
NIU is a siginficant player in electric P2Ws (powered 2-wheelers), but all the models currently being sold are 50cc equivalents limited to 45 km/h; they have announced the NIU RQi-GT (motorcycle form factor, 30kW, 7kWh battery), but AFAIK it isn't sold yet.
SuperSoco all have motors below 4kW, so I'm discounting them -- top speed is 95 km/h which isn't sufficient for motorway commuting.
The Sur-Ron Storm Bee does have the power, but not the cruising speed (top speed is 110 km/h), and certainly not the range; also it's a dirtbike, so not an optimal form factor (dual-purpose works well for urban commuting; full dirtbikes have too much suspension travel IME).
Ditto Horwin: There will apparently be more powerful bikes, but there even specs available for them yet. They're not currently selling anything >5kW. Ditto Kolter.
Now, it can be argued that the 30BHP I mentioned is overkill -- on an e-motorcycle, the torque matter more.
True; however, 5kW is far too low for my taste. I want any motorcycle I own to be able to accelerate out of its own way (and more importantly, out of the way of a 2-ton 400BHP SUV with attentive driver). 5kW doesn't get you there, not when you're already at 70mph. So maybe 15kW (~20BHP) is enough, but certainly nothing less, and given how cheap electric motors are, the difference in component costs between a 15kW and 20kW is small.
There is also a perception issue; riders who today commute on a Kawa Z400 / Honda NC700X ( (~50HP), aren't going to replace it with something with a 10th of the power. And IMO that's most of the accessible market, at least initially. People who currently don't ride at all are highly unlikely to do motorway-speed commutes just because an electric bike is available. Again, This isn't about pure-urban moped replacement.
All that said, all the companies above (apart from NIU & Evoke) are new in the field, not established motorcycle companies -- IMO most riders wouldn't buy a vehicle from them they need to rely on daily (myself included).
I also had some hopes for the Kymco RevoNEX, but it now looks like the production bike will be a full-on halo sportbike to help sell mopeds & scooters, not a mid-power bike in its own right (it's even going to be manufactured in Italy, because the market is Europe, apparently).
I don't think bikes built to this entry level price point are going to compare to the Z400 or NC700X. They are obviously going to have less power and range, just like how the Zero S offers less power than some bikes you can get at its price point. Likewise I expect the REVONEX to be closer to Zero's price points than the 4-5k range.
I don't expect any electric bike for this price to be a proper freeway cruiser, and there would be little point as their batteries would not be big enough to have decent freeway range. The point of filling this price range is to have an entry point for new riders or people with less range needs, not to magically make a cheap ebike that competes with bikes twice its price.
Discounting bikes with smaller motors is missing the point entirely. The grom only makes 9.7HP and it's an incredibly popular starter bike. We don't need excessive power at the entry level.
I do agree that most people are not going to even consider getting a bike from these emerging brands, especially because they don't have a local support network for repairs. Broad e-moto adoption is not going to happen until these established and well known motorcycle companies have their own offerings, or these fledgling manufacturers grow enough to get mass recognition and a robust service network. Zero is getting there, and Energica is growing too, but we need much more, and again, we need the beginner bike price points to be covered.
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Again, this is part of the problem I'm talking about. We have dirt cheap toy bikes, and 9K full electric motorcycles, but nobody is serving the actual entry level 4-6k price segment.
They are, as I mentioned. Yes they don't perform as well as a base level Zero or as well as you want but that's what happens when you lower the price. What you're after is something that's simply not possible, a base level Zero at half the price. Most of the manufacturers I mentioned (perhaps all of them) are Chinese and we all know they have the lowest costs so you're not going to be getting better than those at the same price.
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As long as a good battery sells for $6K, you won't, either.
You can make batteries of any size built your price point. I don't expect a $5K bike to have the same 3.6KWH as a $9K zero FXS. . Likewise I don't expect it to have the same 20kw motor or 85mph top speed. Concessions have to be made to meet the price point. Just like how a $4K Honda Supercub can't compete with a $9k CB650R.
There' a huge gap beause none of those 'beginner' motorcycles sell well.
You can't buy a road-legal beginner bike from any of the manufacturers. They all fail emissions or something. That's because they're compromises.
Electric bikes have that, plus having an expensive battery.
-Crissa
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As long as a good battery sells for $6K, you won't, either.
You can make batteries of any size built your price point. I don't expect a $5K bike to have the same 3.6KWH as a $9K zero FXS. . Likewise I don't expect it to have the same 20kw motor or 85mph top speed. Concessions have to be made to meet the price point. Just like how a $4K Honda Supercub can't compete with a $9k CB650R.
There' a huge gap beause none of those 'beginner' motorcycles sell well.
You can't buy a road-legal beginner bike from any of the manufacturers. They all fail emissions or something. That's because they're compromises.
Electric bikes have that, plus having an expensive battery.
-Crissa
Huh? You can buy road-legal beginner bikes from most moto manufacturers in this price range. Honda has a range of bikes from 125-500cc in this price range. So does Kawasaki, Yamaha, and of course the subject of this post, Royal Enfield! Maybe they aren't the biggest movers in the market, but they sell well enough for them all to continue making them.
And again, bikes like the Sur-ron, Huck, Onyx, Monday Gen7 all show that you can build a bike to the price range. And aside from Sur-ron these are all small american operations. A big moto company would undoubtedly be more efficient at manufacturing and could re-use a lot of parts they have for other bikes to reduce costs. And there's clearly a demand for electric motos at this price range because the Huck, Onyx, Sur-Ron and Gen7 are pretty consistently sold-out. A lot of people are excited about electric motos but want something they can actually afford to start out with. This is a hugely growing market and should be taken advantage of by actual motorcycle companies instead of only being sold as off-road ebikes that people are absolutely buying to ride on public roads.
Or look at it from the other direction, take something the CSC city slicker and add $2500 worth of component upgrades to make it a more capable more reasonable starter bike.
I don't know if you're trolling me or what, as I already said you can build a battery to any price point, as the bikes I just listed do. By your argument zero's can't exist because a 50kwh tesla battery pack is too expensive and anything less is too big of a compromise.
Again, this is part of the problem I'm talking about. We have dirt cheap toy bikes, and 9K full electric motorcycles, but nobody is serving the actual entry level 4-6k price segment.
They are, as I mentioned. Yes they don't perform as well as a base level Zero or as well as you want but that's what happens when you lower the price. What you're after is something that's simply not possible, a base level Zero at half the price. Most of the manufacturers I mentioned (perhaps all of them) are Chinese and we all know they have the lowest costs so you're not going to be getting better than those at the same price.
Again, my problem with the bikes you mentioned has nothing to do with how powerful they are and everything to do with them not being available in the american market. Though Niu is starting to partner with some american dealers, so it looks like that will change at least for those scooters. Unfortunately in america the Niu is going to be massively ignored just because it's shaped like a scooter and we have a weird cultural hangup about that.
If the SuperSoco and the Horwin were available here I'd be holding them up as great examples of what we need more of. But as of now they might as well be vaporware to the american market.
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The city slicker would not be a competent bike with two grand more of stuff on it.
It would still be underpowered and under ranged compared to any ICE bike in the price range.
The Honda offerings are all 'limited release' or a scooter. And a Grom is definitely not a beginner bike. That you had to go up to 500cc shows how not a beginner bike they are.
Actually buying a new or even recently new bike in the lower CC range is harder than buying a Zero.
-Crissa
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Again, this is part of the problem I'm talking about. We have dirt cheap toy bikes, and 9K full electric motorcycles, but nobody is serving the actual entry level 4-6k price segment.
They are, as I mentioned. Yes they don't perform as well as a base level Zero or as well as you want but that's what happens when you lower the price. What you're after is something that's simply not possible, a base level Zero at half the price. Most of the manufacturers I mentioned (perhaps all of them) are Chinese and we all know they have the lowest costs so you're not going to be getting better than those at the same price.
Again, my problem with the bikes you mentioned has nothing to do with how powerful they are and everything to do with them not being available in the american market. Though Niu is starting to partner with some american dealers, so it looks like that will change at least for those scooters. Unfortunately in america the Niu is going to be massively ignored just because it's shaped like a scooter and we have a weird cultural hangup about that.
If the SuperSoco and the Horwin were available here I'd be holding them up as great examples of what we need more of. But as of now they might as well be vaporware to the american market.
And like I said, America isn't the only market that matters and is perhaps the one least suited to lower performance bikes. Even if they did bring the bikes to America they probably wouldn't sell that well. That's America's problem, not the manufacturer's. For a bike to sell in America it needs Zero performance and you're simply not going to get that at a much lower price.
Outside of America, a very large market (bigger I would guess), those types of bikes serve their purpose well and hit the price point between things like the CSC Slicker that shouldn't even be on the road and base model Zeros.
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The city slicker would not be a competent bike with two grand more of stuff on it.
It would still be underpowered and under ranged compared to any ICE bike in the price range.
Define competent.
Every single electric motorcycle on the market is underpowered and under-ranged compared to ICE bikes in its price range. This is obvious, documented, and I even said so multiple times in this thread. I'm not saying a $5000 version of the CSC would be comparable to a $5000 ICE bike, just that a $5000 electric motorcycle is a need that is not being met.
The Honda offerings are all 'limited release' or a scooter. And a Grom is definitely not a beginner bike. That you had to go up to 500cc shows how not a beginner bike they are.
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Lots of people buy groms as beginner bikes, lots of people buy 300, 400 and 500cc bikes as beginner bikes. The key is that most major manufacturers have bikes in this price range, regardless of if you call them beginner or not. But no emotos.
Actually buying a new or even recently new bike in the lower CC range is harder than buying a Zero.
Just plain untrue in my experience. My local powersports dealer has brand new lower CC bikes in stock from multiple manufacturers, but if you want a Zero that's not a demo bike you have to order it. Every dealer experience is different, but there is no shortage of low CC, low price bikes available.
And like I said, America isn't the only market that matters and is perhaps the one least suited to lower performance bikes. Even if they did bring the bikes to America they probably wouldn't sell that well. That's America's problem, not the manufacturer's. For a bike to sell in America it needs Zero performance and you're simply not going to get that at a much lower price.
Outside of America, a very large market (bigger I would guess), those types of bikes serve their purpose well and hit the price point between things like the CSC Slicker that shouldn't even be on the road and base model Zeros.
Again, electric bikes in this price range do have the potential to sell in america as evidenced by these "off-road" ebikes selling out constantly. There is a market for this, it just isn't being served by moto companies. Is that market as big as other areas of the world? Obviously not. America is not the only market that matters, but it's the subject I'm talking about specifically.
If americans didn't want to spend $4-5k on an e-moto, Onyx, Sur-Ron, Monday, and Huck would all be out of business instead of expanding rapidly. The market is there, even if it's smaller than other countries. It just isn't being met by anyone making DOT approved bikes. That's not an American problem, it's a manufacturer problem, missing an opportunity for growth.
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And like I said, America isn't the only market that matters and is perhaps the one least suited to lower performance bikes. Even if they did bring the bikes to America they probably wouldn't sell that well. That's America's problem, not the manufacturer's. For a bike to sell in America it needs Zero performance and you're simply not going to get that at a much lower price.
Outside of America, a very large market (bigger I would guess), those types of bikes serve their purpose well and hit the price point between things like the CSC Slicker that shouldn't even be on the road and base model Zeros.
Again, electric bikes in this price range do have the potential to sell in america as evidenced by these "off-road" ebikes selling out constantly. There is a market for this, it just isn't being served by moto companies. Is that market as big as other areas of the world? Obviously not. America is not the only market that matters, but it's the subject I'm talking about specifically.
If americans didn't want to spend $4-5k on an e-moto, Onyx, Sur-Ron, Monday, and Huck would all be out of business instead of expanding rapidly. The market is there, even if it's smaller than other countries. It just isn't being met by anyone making DOT approved bikes. That's not an American problem, it's a manufacturer problem, missing an opportunity for growth.
The performance requirements for an off road bike are very different to those of a road legal bike. The Sur-ron will hit about 45mph (and you wouldn't want to go much faster than that on one) and weighs 47kg, the Super Soco TC Max is probably one of the fastest bikes in its price range and can just about hit 60mph at 85kg. That sort of performance isn't going to sell in America for on-road use. It's not just that it won't be fast enough compared to other vehicles on the road (because apparently everyone goes over 80mph on the highways) but also Americans want their bikes to be able to hit 60mph in under 4 seconds. On the other hand in places like Europe you have plenty of people on A1 and A2 class bikes and speeds are lower so an A1 equivalent electric bike fits in nicely.
In America a 650 twin is considered a slow beginner bike, in the rest of the world that's more speed than you could ever need and many people will happily ride even slower bikes.
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Ok after not quite a year of constant research and reviewing articles searching for an emotorcycle ( NOT a scooter) to use as a supercommuter I have come to these conclusions.
Note I live in Australia and NOT in a metro area.
I have decades of motorcycle racing and street and dirt riding on ICE motors and working and modifying same. I am a handling fanatic, not a power fanatic.
Almost all current emotorcycle are as described in the above posts are either:
Designed as low speed , no handling, but extremely practical city street only vehicles. They are a worth buying item if you only travel on city streets and no motorways.
Or superbike wannabe ( Ok actualbe's) with power and speed more suited to a track than a street. Just like the ICE sports bikes. Designed to be fast toys , not commuters in any real sense at all.
Or, of course, the dirt biased motorcycles. Here there is plenty of genuinely well designed and capable bikes that actually do what they are designed to do and do it well. Unfortunately most cannot be registered . Well not in Australia anyway ( lets not get into the whole stupid compliance plate thing for the present).
Zero was here and makes VERY nice emotorcycles, but once imported into Aus are ridiculously expensive ( read twice the US price) , so you get a bike with the road performance of a 250-400 ICE for the price of a 1000ccICE. Moot point really, as they have withdrawn leaving Aussie Zero owners in the lurch, which means their brand here will take decades to recover, if it does.
I my opinion any emotorcycle manufacturer should completely ignore the US as a market determinant. The motorcycle market there primarily ignores smaller bikes completely for the street. The rest of the world doesn't. Stop wasting time trying to cater for a market that thinks renewable energy is a Communist plot ( Along with pretty much anything else that isn't made in the US). That plus the US has already got Zeros, which are good AND locally produced. If Tesla gets in on the act as well, the rest of the world is going to have to compete on price, quality, availability, technology, and local support.
The ICE competition for a super commuter is 125cc and up. Good 125cc motorcycles do over 100kph easily and get ridiculous fuel economy ( even on a race track at race speeds). I can tell you that both the Yamaha YZR125R and the Honda CBR125 4 strokes will do 110kph and do it all day and reliably. They cost around $6000AUD new here. That is what an emotorcycle is competing with. They weigh 120kg in stock street trim with fuel. Getting to 100kph takes a while, but you get there before a semi treats you as a speed hump.
Move to the 250's and 100kph is a doddle. Not much dearer and much more performance. That is the supercommuter opposition.
Now several quite nice emotorcycles come close, but don't make the safety speed ( 100kph in Aus). Just a tad more top speed and they are there AND at a good price. Thinking here of Super Socco TC max type bikes. Sooo close.
I keep seeing "announcements" of bikes that are going to be it, but so far, every one has fallen short. Either not turning up at all or, when they get here , the performance is hype.
I still hold hope. Most likely it will NOT be from a European or US manufacturer , but Indian or Chinese or, if we are lucky, Korean Tawianese or Japanese.
It is only a decade or so that it was said that renewable energy would always be more expensive that fossil fuel sources. Now it is much cheaper. That same will almost certainly be true for emotorcycles.
I wait in hope.
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Yeah, I wouldn't mind a bike that topped out at 60, but I'd have to pass the same tests as the rider on the bike that tops out at 120.
*shrug*
If you put two grand of parts on a city slicker, it would still be too slow for anything but the most urban streets and cost more than the equivalent ICE. You're asking to basically put an ICE bike on top of it.
-Crissa
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And like I said, America isn't the only market that matters and is perhaps the one least suited to lower performance bikes. Even if they did bring the bikes to America they probably wouldn't sell that well. That's America's problem, not the manufacturer's. For a bike to sell in America it needs Zero performance and you're simply not going to get that at a much lower price.
Outside of America, a very large market (bigger I would guess), those types of bikes serve their purpose well and hit the price point between things like the CSC Slicker that shouldn't even be on the road and base model Zeros.
Again, electric bikes in this price range do have the potential to sell in america as evidenced by these "off-road" ebikes selling out constantly. There is a market for this, it just isn't being served by moto companies. Is that market as big as other areas of the world? Obviously not. America is not the only market that matters, but it's the subject I'm talking about specifically.
If americans didn't want to spend $4-5k on an e-moto, Onyx, Sur-Ron, Monday, and Huck would all be out of business instead of expanding rapidly. The market is there, even if it's smaller than other countries. It just isn't being met by anyone making DOT approved bikes. That's not an American problem, it's a manufacturer problem, missing an opportunity for growth.
The performance requirements for an off road bike are very different to those of a road legal bike. The Sur-ron will hit about 45mph (and you wouldn't want to go much faster than that on one) and weighs 47kg, the Super Soco TC Max is probably one of the fastest bikes in its price range and can just about hit 60mph at 85kg. That sort of performance isn't going to sell in America for on-road use. It's not just that it won't be fast enough compared to other vehicles on the road (because apparently everyone goes over 80mph on the highways) but also Americans want their bikes to be able to hit 60mph in under 4 seconds. On the other hand in places like Europe you have plenty of people on A1 and A2 class bikes and speeds are lower so an A1 equivalent electric bike fits in nicely.
In America a 650 twin is considered a slow beginner bike, in the rest of the world that's more speed than you could ever need and many people will happily ride even slower bikes.
You're again ignoring the facts that these bikes are selling, and though they are not legal for on-road use they are being bought for and used on-road. Onyx hits 60mph like the soco, is being used almost exclusively on-road, and is selling out. Comparing them to a 650 is irrelevant, nobody is buying them expecting them to be highway bikes and contrary to popular belief, not every vehicle on america is needed or expected to be highway capable.
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I'm not comparing them to a 650, I'm just pointing out America's attitude towards lower powered bikes. There's a reason no one rides 125s except for Groms and dual sports and everyone gets an MT-07 over an MT-03 as their first bike (and those people are told by everyone else that they should have gotten an MT-09 instead).
If the Oynx really is selling out then it's simply because they're not making very many of them. As for people riding it on the road they're probably not doing so in the same manner that they would with an actual motorcycle (no helmet, no gear, lower speeds, shorter distances) and it's less conspicuous being smaller and looking more like a regular bicycle. Chances are anyone that rides one doesn't have a motorcycle licence and probably wouldn't be interested in getting one. If they were going to get one and invest in gear then chances are they'd spend the same money on an ICE bike and go faster and further, not get a Super Soco and have similar speed and range as the Oynx but with the hassle of gearing up and a larger and heavier bike.
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Chances are anyone that rides one doesn't have a motorcycle licence and probably wouldn't be interested in getting one.
...And hence, not buying a real moped, either. Because that requires an M on your license. So what's the solution?
-Crissa
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I don't know. I'm just saying that most of the people that would be riding an Oynx on the road aren't the sort of people that would ride an actual motorbike. They're the same people that would ride an electric scooter, One Wheel, boosted board, or an electrically assisted bicycle.
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Knowing RE, it will be 50 pounds too heavy and not as powerful as the competition. ;D
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Unfortunately the moped laws just aren't sufficient. The 2mph difference between a 28mph class 3 ebike and 30mph moped means anything that legally counts as a moped doesn't make any sense in the market. (Though critically the class 3 needs pedal assist for it's highest 8mph)
I disagree that these people wouldn't ride a motorbike, I'd argue that they are riding motorbikes, and while certainly some of them are happy to be hooligans who don't register their bikes, many more would happily register and pay insurance for these lower powered bikes if they were manufactured as motorcycles. As for gear, most of them seem to already be wearing motorcycle helmets and gloves, but whether they're ATGATT or closer to a squid riding in shorts and a t-shirt has no bearing on the bikes themselves or their ability to be registered.
Edit:
So it looks like more recently HUCK has added info on the moto version of their bike. Info here. (http://"https://huckcycles.com/products/stinger-x-3000w-electric-motorcycle") Judging by the pictures of the moped version it looks like they haven't actually produced the Stinger X yet.
They only offer the bigger battery in their motorcycle version, but that expense gives you a 60mph top speed, 3.6kwh nominal battery for $5500 with tax included. Taxes of course vary by state but in CA that would make the pre-tax price to be $5116.
Which is to say yes, you can build an electric motorcycle in this price range with desirable specs. There are a lot of younger riders and college students for example that would absolutely start with something like this for their first bike, that would not be able to afford the next step up to a Zero FXS for $4000 more. But they've never had registerable options before.
The other thing to consider is tax incentives. Fed incentives are about to expire but potentially these bikes being registered as motorcycles could lead them to eligibility for california's KWH based tax rebates. Wouldn't have an astronomical effect on price point, but it would certainly help.
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Just like the Super Soco that 60mph is the best case scenario, you'll only see that with a full battery if you tuck on flat ground. To be able to reliably hit 60 in all conditions you'd probably want a top speed approaching 80, and I really can't imagine many Americans spending the time and money to licence and register the bike and gear up if it can't do that speed. Also at that speed with just 3.6kW/h range is going to be down around 25 miles on a good day.
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Not everyone needs to go 80 or even 60, yes even in america. Nobody is claiming these things are highway machines. Again, urban, suburban areas, college towns, etc. Young people without huge incomes. 60mph top speed (not cruising speed) is perfect for being able to zip around in local traffic not on the highway.
Americans are not a monolith. It's a hugely diverse landscape filled with different people and different needs. Are these going to sell as much as an SV650? No. But that doesn't mean there's no market. Again, these are already out there, people are already buying them, riding in the streets, and yes, they often even wear helmets! Which again, is irrelevant as there are plenty of people riding literbikes with no gear. Gear has no place in this conversation.
It's naïve to think none of these people would be willing to pay the modest fees for registering such a cheap vehicle or the dirt cheap insurance fees if it meant they'd never have to worry about it getting impounded. There are also people waiting and wanting to buy one but are discouraged by the legal status.
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But your $5k bike isn't doing anything more than the sub $2k gas bike.
That's very similar to the $6k I spent on my bike vs the $7k my spouse spent on her new Ducati.
-Crissa
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Ev customers pay more than ICE customers, this is true in every single price category and will continue to be true for some time.
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Ev customers pay more than ICE customers, this is true in every single price category and will continue to be true for some time.
I mean is there a market for that, sure, but the tech doesn't actually hit that price point right now so it's kind of a mute point. ...
I was more commenting on the price points currently available. Zero, Cake, and others have bikes in the 7-8K range and above, doing the best they can do with that price point. But the 4-6k price point which is basically entry level for real motorcycles, is pretty much barren. The only bikes in this space tend to be ebikes like the onyx that are not legal motorcycles and cannot be legally ridden on most public roads. I want to see more emotos built to that price point.
???
-Crissa
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These are not in conflict with each other.
We pay more for electric performance compared to gas.
You can still build it to a price point.
Yes, a $5k emoto will not match the performance of a $4K gas moto.
For the Price of a Zero SR, you can buy a literbike that outperforms it and still save a couple thousand dollars. Yet, there is still a market for the SR because it turns out that people who buy electric are willing to get less performance per dollar, because at the end of the day they want to ride electric.
This concept is still true for people who have $5k budgets, want to go electric, and don't need highway capabilities. More bikes made to fit these budgets, like the Super Soco, Huck, etc, are needed to fill that gap in options, but in order to truly fill the need they need to be both available and legal.
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This concept is still true for people who have $5k budgets, want to go electric, and don't need highway capabilities.
Perhaps they're just fucking with me but most of the Americans I've spoken to do want that, and it seems to be backed up (or at least the manufacturers think it too) by the lack of 125 gas bikes available in America. The few that they do have access to are mainly meme bikes like the grom (yes it is a massive seller but it's also really cheap) or off road bikes. Even in Europe no one is buying 125 versions of bigger bikes (RC125/Duke 125, MT-125, CB/R-125, etc.) because they want to, it's because they need to due to licence restrictions.
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There are definitely a lot of americans that think this way, and its somewhat ingrained into the culture of conventional ICE motorcycle riders.
They are not the same people interested in lower price electric bikes. Motorcycle riding as a whole has been declining because it has failed to excite and interest younger riders, and we can see in the e-bike scene the same kind of excitement and shenanigans that lead to harley's rise. The market I'm talking about for cheaper electric moto's is certainly small, but it also has the most potential. This is the biggest opportunity for growth and for bringing in new riders in american motorcycling.
Or we can stick with the conventional wisdom of ICE bike manufacturers in the US and watch as the american motorcycle industry crumbles, while its ridership ages out of being able to ride and it fails to capture new riders.
Also, you keep bringing up licensing and I don't think it's nearly as big of a deal here as it is in europe. In the US you need to pass a fairly straightforward multiple choice written test, and you can ride whatever bike you want with a permit. Then to get licensed you just have to do a couple circles in a parking lot. It's not difficult, and it's certainly much easier with these smaller lightweight electric bikes than with a heavy 650cc "beginner bike" with a clutch. The hardest part of the process is just waiting for a DMV appointment.
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Failed to excite?
Do you understand that it's more difficult to get a motorcycle license than one for an SUV? And the SUV comes with a 30x less chance of death (for the driver)?
That's why very few pick up cycling or motorcycling. It has a high barrier of entry and a stiff penalty if things go wrong.
-Crissa
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I think we have it quite good here in the UK... there are barriers but mostly based on actual competency, which is a good thing and doubtless a significant factor in the ever-decreasing KSI stats here over the last 20 years, which are fairly hard to overlook. I'm fairly certain I'd be dead if I'd started on a 650. As it is I had a 550 when I was 17 and honestly I should never have been allowed :P
Financially, it costs far, far, far less to get a license to ride than a license to drive here, and the insurance is maybe a tenth of what you'd pay for a car too.
Back to the US though... the US is a strange sort of place where you are literally expected or even required to drive, everywhere. Nobody walks anywhere. It's weird af to anyone from Europe. So everywhere is likewise spread out in a huge sprawl, which means distances, so having highway capabilities is pretty important I should think, and 125s are basically utterly crap on fast roads with aggressive motorists everywhere. Or massive fun, depending on your outlook on life.
Cas :)
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Failed to excite?
Do you understand that it's more difficult to get a motorcycle license than one for an SUV? And the SUV comes with a 30x less chance of death (for the driver)?
That's why very few pick up cycling or motorcycling. It has a high barrier of entry and a stiff penalty if things go wrong.
-Crissa
It's almost exactly the same process to get a motorcycle license vs an SUV, the main difference is that minors can ride the motorcycle with a permit on their own, while in the SUV they need a licensed adult in the car with them at all times. When you have your permit, the license test for the SUV driver requires driving on-road with other drivers successfully, showing competency with both controlling the vehicle and the rules of the road. The motorcycle test is basically can you ride in circles in the parking lot.
Bikes are generally cheaper than cars and the insurance is vastly cheaper. The biggest barrier to entry is simply that most new drivers or riders are not familiar with a manual transmission, and to learn both manual and riding on 2 wheels at the same time can be intimidating.
I will grant that safety is a big part of the reason americans aren't big on motorcycles, but at the same time so many are happy to tap away on their phones while they drive, or get on a rental electric scooter drunk and crash at 20mph with no helmet, so our safety concerns aren't always based on actual logic and risk.
Back to the US though... the US is a strange sort of place where you are literally expected or even required to drive, everywhere. Nobody walks anywhere. It's weird af to anyone from Europe. So everywhere is likewise spread out in a huge sprawl, which means distances, so having highway capabilities is pretty important I should think, and 125s are basically utterly crap on fast roads with aggressive motorists everywhere. Or massive fun, depending on your outlook on life.
Cas :)
I think this is true in lots of areas of the US, but it's not true for everyone and is certainly not true in denser areas.
In big cities like SF or NY it's easy to find people that don't own cars, who rely on other forms of transportation to get to work or the store. And it's becoming more common. Just read any one of thousands of articles about how millennials are "killing" the car industry. Owning a car is not what it used to be culturally, and more and more people are living without and seeking out other forms of transport. Add in that gig companies like uber have made it easier than ever to get a ride where you want when you want, and the desire to own a car, and to pay for insurance and maintenance, has plummeted for many.
Does that work in the boonies? No, of course not. But even though America is a vast rural land, the majority of our citizens are actually in dense urban areas, where getting around without cars is both possible and relatively popular.
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It's almost exactly the same process to get a motorcycle license vs an SUV, the main difference is that minors can ride the motorcycle with a permit on their own, while ...
No. This varies by state. And it's enforced unevenly.
In California, a minor can't ride any motorcycle without a permit and a driver's license. You may be ticketed, even though it doesn't make sense. A minor is only allowed certain size motorcycles as well, based upon age and permit type. Each motorcycle permit level triggers a new fee and a new test. Minors are supposed to pass a safety course the adults can opt out of to get their license.
Also, if you fail your endorsement test twice, they take can away your regular license, and will, if you don't have one, even if you passed that test (which you have to take every time you get an endorsement). So you're running the risk of getting a test that asks you the difference between a trolley safety zone and a trolley zone or the weight of a child's seat requirements.
Might as well do the easy test and drive an SUV like everyone else.
-Crissa
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Wow you're right I didn't realize you need a drivers license to get a motorcycle permit as a minor. That's some garbage legislation for sure.
I can't find any reference to restricting the type or size of the bike though, only permit restrictions are passengers, highways, and night riding. All of which are the same for a car drivers permit.
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Do you really think it's garbage legislation? I mean, would you be OK with your 16yo kid just wandering over to a bike shop and trundling off at 70mph with a wave from the dealer?
Cas :)
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That's not what I'm suggesting at all. All I'm saying is that you should be able to get a motorcycle permit and license without having to first complete having a car license. If you're able to pass the written test and obtain a motorcycle endorsement, you should be able to get an M license regardless of if you've gone through the same process for a 4-wheeled vehicle.
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Oh I see, I didn't realise it was predicated on learning to drive an actual car first. That is a bit odd. Though it has often been said here that if everyone had to learn to ride before they got a car license there'd be a lot less accidents...
Cas :)
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You can just get an M, just since no one does it, no one recognizes it.
In California, you go through the class and pass the class. At the DMV just don't check the C box, but you still take both tests and still have to do a practical, but it takes special scheduling.
And your motorcycle permit is not valid (without a driver's license) on city streets without a licensed instructor as a passenger. Just like a class C permit isn't valid without a licensed adult driver.
-Crissa
PS, we also have a class M2 license which is just for mopeds and minors are limited to it. But it takes the same tests as the M1.
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When I started riding a Vespa in California, I needed to have a automobile license as there was no such thing as a motorcycle license. But I couldn't afford a car, so I rode for a couple of years on a learner's permit, renewing it every 6 months, until the state finally developed a motorcycle license when they realized that the nicest people were riding all over the state on two wheels. That took them by surprise. And then it wasn't long before they also discovered that there was no engine size or power limitation for two-wheel vehicles to travel on the freeway. I used to run my scooter at 50 mph on the freeway and would draft semi-trucks to get pulled along at 55. Those were the days. But they didn't last long. The state instituted a 15 hp minimum limit to enter a freeway. When that turned out to be hard to enforce, they changed the requirement to 150cc.