ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Damon => Topic started by: NEW2elec on November 16, 2020, 08:17:18 PM
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Check back here on 11/19 for the reveal. ;)
Maybe hear all about Damon's Hyperdrive approach.
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With full details to come, Damon's website shows that there are now 5 different variants of their Hypersport motorcycle.
The Founder's Edition is already sold out but the limited Premier Edition will go for $39,995 with top of the line components all around.
The standard Hypersport with the three 200 marks for range HP and top speed will go for $24995.
The two new models the SX and SE will go for $19,995 and $16,995 respectfully. I don't see much info on these two models yet but all have the same outer appearance with the drive train and battery size being different.
They also show their power train battery unit they call the "HyperDrive".
From their web site:
HyperDrive™ is the world's first monocoque-constructed, all-electric multi-variant powertrain. The high-energy pack design is a structural powerplant built for many batter capacities; that forms the core for the future's most ground-breaking and exhilarating motorcyles.
HyperDrive™ redefines industry benchmarks of motorcycle performance, saftey and design.
Designed for Performance
HyperDrive’s form factor is crucial to the vast performance increase of the HyperSport. Using aerodynamic design and rigorous wind-tunnel testing, HyperDrive delivers more speed, acceleration and range than ever before.
Slim Design
The pack’s cell count, orientation & layout, heat dissipation materials, liquid-cooling performance, and material selection are engineered to create the slimmest possible battery, without compromising energy density or output.
Dual Purpose
To further reduce weight, HyperDrive acts as a structural component of the motorcycle itself. The battery enclosure not only optimizes weight distribution for high-speed stability & handling, but also act as the motorcycle’s load-bearing frame.
End statement.
This system will allow for cross platform applications while keeping the R&D and manufacturing costs to a minimum.
Again I'm very impressed with this team's innovative approach to the world of electric motorcycles.
More to come as info is released.
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Hypersport SE: https://www.damon.com/hypersport-se
Key features:
0-60 MPH < 3 Seconds
Range 108 Miles
Horsepower 100
Top Speed 120 MPH
Charge Time 20m @ Level 3 < 2.2 Hrs @ Level 2 (Assuming this is a 3.3kW L2 charger)
Motor PMAC Liquid Cooled 160 kW peak
Battery 11 kWh
Warranty 2 Years
Hyperssport SX: https://www.damon.com/hypersport-sx
Key features:
0-60 MPH < 3 Seconds
Range 150 Miles
Horsepower 150
Top Speed 150 MPH
Charge Time 30m @ Level 3 < 2 Hrs @ Level 2 (Assuming this is a 6.6kW L2 charger)
Motor PMAC Liquid Cooled 160 kW peak
Battery 15 kWh
Warranty 2 Years
So these are like Zero's S and SR bikes (but with DCFC) 8)
And i'm not sure if the range figures are city or mixed. This is from their website too:
*Configurations are based on USA specification. 200+ range is estimated using the SAE J2982 *on highway electric motorcycle standard* and references a mix of highway and urban cycle. Straight 70 mph highway range is ~161 miles. Straight 60 mph highway range is estimated at 201 miles. Global specifications will be issued at a later date.
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Range is bullshit of course...
Cas :)
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Range is bullshit of course...
Maybe :)
But the SE has range and charging specs like the 13.4kWh Energicas, but seemingly with much lower weight and at this point similarly priced. Of course the claimed tech on Damon is more advanced. We should wait to see when these bikes start to appear on the roads.
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Thanks for posting Shayan, I was at work when the details came out.
Princec, can you tell me how a Tesla with a 100 kWh battery pack gets 370 miles of range and a Lucid Air Dream gets 517 from a 113 kWh pack?
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Simple, one of them is lying.
Bikes get 5-7 miles per KWh on average if you ride "normally". Plenty of recorded evidence from at least 4 manufacturers. And there's plenty of data on the cars out there, and they get about 3-4 ish. Efficiency is already over 95% so they're not going to suddenly get vastly more efficient. The only thing that can be fixed is aero and in that regard, bikes are up a certain creek without a certain instrument - without some frankly bizarre shapes and inconvenience we're not going to see even half the CD of a Tesla.
Cas :)
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Well, aren't they trying to do some sort of pose-shifting thing to get them better aerodynamics?
And I get about 10 miles per kWh riding 'normally'. Of course, I'm rarely on the freeway.
-Crissa
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Simple, one of them is lying.
Bikes get 5-7 miles per KWh on average if you ride "normally". Plenty of recorded evidence from at least 4 manufacturers. And there's plenty of data on the cars out there, and they get about 3-4 ish. Efficiency is already over 95% so they're not going to suddenly get vastly more efficient. The only thing that can be fixed is aero and in that regard, bikes are up a certain creek without a certain instrument - without some frankly bizarre shapes and inconvenience we're not going to see even half the CD of a Tesla.
Cas :)
Zero SR with PT at 18kWh total is rated at 112 miles at 70mph. So the 20kWh pack on this bike could give 150 miles of range if this math could workout practically
1. 10% more battery means 10% more range = 123miles
2. 10% through fairing let's say. That means 135 miles
3. Another 10% through full tuck and that brings it to 148miles
Even if we approximate it to 150 it's about 11 miles less than their claimed number. Even if it's not too far off, I don't know wj the those 10 miles can be added from.
I don't think it can be lighter than 458lbs of the SR with a PT
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Sorry Princec that is not correct.
I've PMed you some info on the Lucid as I don't want to clutter this thread but it gives some hints as to how a different approach can give very different results.
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Sorry Princec that is not correct.
I've PMed you some info on the Lucid as I don't want to clutter this thread but it gives some hints as to how a different approach can give very different results.
yo pm me that as well
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I'll believe it when I see it... energy is energy.
Cas :)
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I'll believe it when I see it... energy is energy.
Cas :)
Unless it is spinning rapidly and looking to attract investor dollars. ;)
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Et tu Richard?
Princec, I mean the one video was from Motor Trend and he drives the car 450 miles with 7% left which should take them to at least 485 miles non city driving. We can agree that the highest range numbers are at the most optimum conditions and we all know from experience what factors contribute to lower range.
As they say on Damon's website: The Hypersport will do 160 miles doing straight 70MPH and 200 miles at straight 60MPH and over that with mixed riding conditions.
Now will everyone get those numbers on every ride? Of course not but if it's even within a 10% difference it would be the best range going.
Morgan, When I get home I'll PM you.
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I remain skeptical because I've seen so much chicanery in this industry. I'm not saying they did, for example, but they could easily have provided a Lucid car to Motor Trend that a special larger capacity battery pack. At no point did the Motor Trend article show a charging station with data on how many kWh were put back in the car.
Call me pessimistic but, frankly, there's too much BS going on, and I don't trust journalists.
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Well, lets go with innocent until proven guilty. I think that's fair.
As for Lucid, of course I used them as a closer to production automotive example of the type of advancements I expect from the EV world.
As for slipping in a higher battery capacity for reviews, I'm sorry man that makes no sense at all. If Lucid was using a, whatever, 250kWh battery pack to get that range why not advertise it as such?
A bigger battery number would actually impress an EV novice more and likely sell better than explaining drag coefficient and Ohm's law.
That's really all I want to talk about Lucid, I wish them well and competition makes things better in the long run.
As for Damon I wish people would be a little more open minded to idea that there can be real jumps in performance and ability especially in this tech sector.
As some people on here had talked about maybe the full spec Hypersport was over the top with speed and performance for them now there are other options offered at lower specs and a lower price. It not only increases the appeal but also puts the bikes in the reach of more diverse budgets.
They feel the first test ride events will start in the Spring so sign up for one and see for yourself what it's all about.
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And here's a write up from Adventure Rider.com explaining things in a bit more detail.
https://advrider.com/damon-reveals-hyperdrive-multi-variant-powertrain-and-two-new-models/
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As for Damon I wish people would be a little more open minded to idea that there can be real jumps in performance and ability especially in this tech sector.
I'm as open minded as the next guy, but numbers are numbers. With motors already running at >95% efficiency, they're simply not going to get noticeably better, and drag coefficients rarely achieving more than a few % better, I don't see how anyone can make their kwh suddenly go so much further than anyone else. There aren't any radical shapes here. These bikes will go more or less exactly the same distance as Energicas or Zeros on the same energy with the single greatest factor being how fast they're ridden.
Performance wise though, absolutely. Entirely plausible they can get sub-3s 0-60 and 150mph without any trouble at all.
Cas :)
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As for Damon I wish people would be a little more open minded to idea that there can be real jumps in performance and ability especially in this tech sector.
I'm as open minded as the next guy, but numbers are numbers. With motors already running at >95% efficiency, they're simply not going to get noticeably better, and drag coefficients rarely achieving more than a few % better, I don't see how anyone can make their kwh suddenly go so much further than anyone else. There aren't any radical shapes here. These bikes will go more or less exactly the same distance as Energicas or Zeros on the same energy with the single greatest factor being how fast they're ridden.
Performance wise though, absolutely. Entirely plausible they can get sub-3s 0-60 and 150mph without any trouble at all.
Cas :)
Not that i'm saying Damon is fully legit, but isnt the efficiency argument similar to how Bolt 60kWh gives better range than say the Leaf with a 62kWh battery? I guess the efficiency of how the energy produced by the motor is utilized at the wheels comes into play too.
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I see the picture from that advrider address posted a few posts back.
It sure looks like they are committed to essentially the type of "frame flex"
Does the swingarm and linkage attachment points really look robust compared to the "competition"
And as to the competiton, a podcast linked perhaps yesterday or the day before stated first deliveries to customers very end of 2021, which is 12 or 13 months. Kind of hard to really say what the "competition" is going to be when one can actually get one in a timely manner. How long was it between the Harley electric bike test ride tour and actual delivery? Any bearing to Damon's time line test rides supposed to start in April i read.
And then this "Machine Learning – Every time a rider responds to a threat warning by swerving or braking, the onboard system captures and tags the incident details in 360º. It then transmits data to Damon’s cloud over its embedded wireless connection so that the system can learn to detect more threats faster over time.
Hypersport specifications" I guess only a certain subset of motorcycle or any vehicle buyers want to be spied on.
Fran
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When you can control what's being uploaded, are you being spied upon?
That reminds me, I need to plug in my 360 camera
-Crissa
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Anyone wanna do some math? Let's take a closer look at this here battery pack they're talking about. Article claims 450vdc nominal. It's safe to assume they're using 21700 cells which have a 3.65 nominal voltage. 450/3.65 = 123.287.... call it 124S. But how many parallel? Well, we need to have a guess at what cells they're using. Let's give them the best fighting chance possible with the incredibly energy-dense Samsung 50G that are solely reserved for EV manufacturers, unlike the 50E available to enthusiasts. They have a 5000mAh capacity.
This battery cell weighs 69 grams and, as a 21700, has a diameter of 21mm and a length of 70mm. They're about 24 cubic centimeters as cylinders, but you have to count the dead space around them so it's easier to think of them as square, and as such are about 31 cubic centimeters. Someone else should do the rest of the geometry.
Let's dig in a little more. A 124S pack of those cells would yield ~2.26kWh. You'd need about 9 of them to yield 20kWh. That is.... 1,116 batteries in that pack. That's ~170 lbs of just raw cells, excluding bus bars, housings, and other battery-related accoutrements.
Of course that's using nominal values. I'm going to assume the article is wrong and that 450vdc is the MAX proposed voltage and I'll use the generous 4.2vdc value per cell. That drops it down to 107S 9P and a slim 963 cells.
So, about 1000 individual battery cells in the absolute best case scenario available today.
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It's all vaporware until they publish more detail....
Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk
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Frank did you read the article posted above? They put out a good bit of info at this stage of the game.
And more importantly have you signed up for a test ride?
Now that I know your one of the speed demons of the group I'd love to get your impressions of the bike.
Again with me being in Atlanta and Damon being in Vancouver, I may need to fly in somewhere for my own test ride.
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It still looks like a bunch of design goals, specs and computer renderings to me. It's great marketing (and I really hope they can deliver on some of their claims) but until there's some sort of independent verification...
If they really can deliver 200 HP/200 Nm torque in a 48# motor- kudos to them because I don't think anyone else has been able to do so. But the numbers seem a bit convenient i.e. 200, 200, 200 HP, nm, MPH. I haven't actually signed up for a test ride yet but I did confirm that they intend to market in both the US and Canada. Once they actually start production I would love to try one out but I would expect them to focus on population centers and that's about the polar opposite of where I'm located. Maybe I should sign up, just to let them know someone else might be interested in the eastern part of the continent.
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Yes Frank sign up. Nothing to lose really. It's always best to be your own verification. :)
I agree they will likely hit the big EV customer centers first. A few stops in CA seems likely.
So much of what can be done will be due to the Covid situation but that goes for everything.
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Morgan, and others, I feel your heart's in the right place by trying to help people not get burned by false claims.
But we have to expect new companies to come out and some will be better than the ones that are already out.
I've been a member of this Forum for over five years now and every model year change there is a wish list thread for what features and improvements people want from the new model year's offerings.
This company is putting together so many of the aspects of what people said they wanted in an electric bike and it seems like now they can't believe it can finally happen.
1. More performance. That's an off the chart CHECK.
2 Top of the line range. That's a check until "proven" otherwise.
3. CCS charging. Another check.
4. Standard 6kW AC charging. Check.
5. Liquid cooling for all systems. Check again.
6. Aerodynamic. Not only is that a check but it has a motorcycling first for a sport bike that changes the riding position for speed or upright for city or back road riding.
7. Hell even LED lighting. Check.
Plus features people didn't even think about.
1. The Copilot safety warning system.
2. Rear facing 1080p camera with dash display, along with other cameras for a nearly full view of your surroundings.
3. A 4G internet connection for updates and likely (not sure yet) GPS and charging status sent to your phone.
Best of all they aren't just saying trust us, they are saying sign up to take a test ride and see for yourself. No charge no obligation.
Now yes they do ask for a $100 (refundable) deposit to make a reservation, to buy a bike, but that is more than fair and is pretty much industry standard to weed out some bots or other shenanigans .
With 4 variations of the Hypersport now offered people have choices and can change which bike they want to apply their deposit to up until it's ready to be made. Then you get the bike you said you wanted.
I'm very happy to have a group bring so many of the features people said they wanted together in a new platform.
There are risks involved with any new startup but this is an impressive team resume and the product shows they have been doing their research into what people want in an electric bike.
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It all does sound too good to be true! I reckon they'll come in looking to be remarkably similar to the Energicas.
No mention of weight in the wishlist there by the way...
Cas :)
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Yes, thank you Princec. Lower weight as well.
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I will admit to knowing nothing about the Damon company or their product, but their claims, goals and "spin" just reminds me too much of Skully helmets, Lightning, Mission Motors and what seems like the dozens of wonderful battery announcements over the past 20 years. When I see performance and technical claims that appear to be way beyond what is readily available on the consumer market for a similar price (I am sorry) I just start rolling my eyes. I keep thinking that much of this hype is to attract investment funds and less about manufacturing a mass market-ready vehicle. It is relatively easy to build a few very expensive and impressive vehicles with amazing features, but not so easy to manufacture them in quantity at a price the general public can afford.
Then there is the problem of setting up a retail sales/distribution/servicing network. Not at all easy to do and this can take years to accomplish.
There is also the problem of buying off-the-shelf components that are needed to produce a fully-functional vehicle in large quantities. These would include battery cells, controllers, frames, wheels, tires, brake systems (including ABS electronics), suspension components, plastic parts, and the various unique components needed to make Damon's motorcycle do what they claim it will do. All of that stuff will be sourced from other established manufacturers, who will need to be convinced to supply them in quantity, will likely want to be paid up front in cash and will also not be providing any volume price discounts. (I doubt Damon would want to advertise that they are using Fast Ace suspension components, as an example.)
Designing a new vehicle can be relatively easy when you have smart engineers and designers doing the work, but putting one into volume production and making a go of it is an entirely different kettle of fish. Just check out the names of the different electric motorcycle brands on this forum. How many of them are still around? And I still wonder what happened to Alta Motors? ??? If anyone should still be around you would think it would have been them. :( It is a tough world out there.
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Richard I have great respect for not only your many years of riding experience but the diverse types of bikes you've owned and ridden.
You were also a super early adopter in many different two wheeled electric vehicles so you've seen a lot.
Let me see if I can help answer some of your questions and concerns.
First I've posted... well a lot, about Damon so if you have the time and interest there are CEO interviews posted and the Adventure Rider article posted link on this page which covers a bit of the specs and different model offerings. It also talks about how Damon has parts and designs that are theirs' alone, designed in house. Controler for example. As for the other off the shelf components their top of the line bikes use Ohlins suspension and Brembo brakes so no Fast Ace on these. :)
As for this: "Then there is the problem of setting up a retail sales/distribution/servicing network. Not at all easy to do and this can take years to accomplish."
They agree with you and won't be setting up a dealer network.
I posted in a different thread in this section, a podcast with Damon's COO and founder of Alta (there are two birds about to be hit with one stone here) where he starts off telling what happened to Alta and also how setting up a dealer network costs about as much as setting up production.
As to your last section, yes I agree there have been a lot of companies come and go. Getting in at the right time and after technology has matured a bit is always a big help. Also yes Alta had a great set of bikes and I have a link on Cycle Trader that includes Altas up for sale and when they do come up for sale they go quick. That says a lot about how good they are for people to buy them with no company to back them up anymore.
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Morgan, and others, I feel your heart's in the right place by trying to help people not get burned by false claims.
But we have to expect new companies to come out and some will be better than the ones that are already out.
I've been a member of this Forum for over five years now and every model year change there is a wish list thread for what features and improvements people want from the new model year's offerings.
This company is putting together so many of the aspects of what people said they wanted in an electric bike and it seems like now they can't believe it can finally happen.
1. More performance. That's an off the chart CHECK.
2 Top of the line range. That's a check until "proven" otherwise.
3. CCS charging. Another check.
4. Standard 6kW AC charging. Check.
5. Liquid cooling for all systems. Check again.
6. Aerodynamic. Not only is that a check but it has a motorcycling first for a sport bike that changes the riding position for speed or upright for city or back road riding.
7. Hell even LED lighting. Check.
Plus features people didn't even think about.
1. The Copilot safety warning system.
2. Rear facing 1080p camera with dash display, along with other cameras for a nearly full view of your surroundings.
3. A 4G internet connection for updates and likely (not sure yet) GPS and charging status sent to your phone.
Best of all they aren't just saying trust us, they are saying sign up to take a test ride and see for yourself. No charge no obligation.
Now yes they do ask for a $100 (refundable) deposit to make a reservation, to buy a bike, but that is more than fair and is pretty much industry standard to weed out some bots or other shenanigans .
With 4 variations of the Hypersport now offered people have choices and can change which bike they want to apply their deposit to up until it's ready to be made. Then you get the bike you said you wanted.
I'm very happy to have a group bring so many of the features people said they wanted together in a new platform.
There are risks involved with any new startup but this is an impressive team resume and the product shows they have been doing their research into what people want in an electric bike.
Hi, New2Elec, came to talk to you and the others about the HyperDrive revelation, but I'm clearly already late to the party ;D ;D
Nevertheless, I'm gonna leave here a link to the HyperDrive features Damon have posted on their blog:
https://blog.damon.com/the-numbers-behind-damons-motorcycle-powertrain/
Hope you find it interesting.
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Hey Nacho! :)
Yeah I think it's some pretty exciting news with the other bike model tiers being offered.
I think we have some broken hearted members that are finding it hard to get their hopes up and love again. ;)
Even if they can't give it their full faith yet there should always be hope and happiness for the future.
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First I've posted... well a lot, about Damon so if you have the time and interest there are CEO interviews posted and the Adventure Rider article posted link on this page which covers a bit of the specs and different model offerings. It also talks about how Damon has parts and designs that are theirs' alone, designed in house. Controler for example. As for the other off the shelf components their top of the line bikes use Ohlins suspension and Brembo brakes so no Fast Ace on these. :)
They didn't design it, though. It's Mission's inverter. Literally an old stock photo of it with the Mission logo was in the video I showed you.
No one else going to comment on the minimum THOUSAND 21700 batteries they need to make this work assuming they can get the best batteries on the market?
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Well either way it's only theirs.
As for the math it's sort of like this at this point:
X=10 what does y equal?
Not enough information to solve for y.
That is to say you don't "know" what they are using and how it's setup yet. I respect your EV experience but again lets see what it does first. (Test ride maybe) ;)
I'm looking at the human and business side right now which is this saying that comes from the marketing field:
Nothing kills a bad product faster than great advertising.
IOW if it's shown to be not even close it likely won't go well.
The people on this forum know that range has a multitude of factors that go into "real world" results.
I could ride in the cold, upright and into the wind with the throttle pinned and never get close to any of the major manufactured bikes' claimed range.
It's just physics. You don't get a gas cars claimed MPG if your going 90 MPH either but people just fill up the tank when the needle says E and don't give it a second thought.
Do you have an acceptable "real world" range number from a 200 mile claim at a straight 60MPH?
No snark or sarcasm in the question, I'd really like an answer.
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I'm looking at the human and business side right now which is this saying that comes from the marketing field:
Nothing kills a bad product faster than great advertising.
IOW if it's shown to be not even close it likely won't go well.
And yet people still rabidly believe in the Lightning Strike and LS-218.
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Well I feel like Damon is nothing like Lightning.
They have a better team with proven electric vehicle success.
I think you'll also see Lightning's section in this forum and on YT and other social platforms is pretty dead.
They put out a failed half bike and lost all credibility.
Pretty much proving my first post.
Also can you answer the "real world" range question?
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I will do my best to keep an open mind regarding Damon. It is just that I have seen so many promising products, and especially startup electric motorcycle firms, come and go over the years. I intend to wait until the company starts marketing their bikes to the general public at a competitive price point and then see what owners (not press reviewers of prototype vehicles) think of them after a year or so of riding.
I will admit to being surprised how successful Energica has been since their original bikes were announced to be sold in the U.S. at something like $35K. Once they managed to get the price down to around $20K and picked up some reliable and enthusiastic dealers like my longtime BMW shop, Calmoto, then I really became impressed with their product. Unfortunately, their bikes are just to heavy for me to manage at my age. :(
I will make one additional comment: Any company that sells a vehicle needs to do so through a brick and mortar shop. You can not stay in business very long by selling direct to consumers. That didn't work for Electric Motorsport or Zero in 2008 and there are probably other examples. (I still recall when Electric Motorsport needed to fly their engineer out to customers' homes all over the country to fix problems on their GPR-S bikes. That sure didn't last very long and they quickly turned to selling their bikes though established retail outlets.) I know that Tesla has had some success with direct sales to customers, but that company has economies of scale, backed by really big bucks, that an electric motorcycle startup up could never manage.
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Do you have an acceptable "real world" range number from a 200 mile claim at a straight 60MPH?
No snark or sarcasm in the question, I'd really like an answer.
I think it's absolutely fair to assign a value as low as 130Wh/mi for an FIM style faired bike as such at 60mph.
20000Wh divided by 130Wh/mi = ~153 miles. Which is likely very similar to what you can get on an Ego+ at 60.
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Well I feel like Damon is nothing like Lightning.
They have a better team with proven electric vehicle success.
?? Has Damon produced something already? People may not like Lightning's product(s) or business practices, but they have produced motorcycles and won races.
Damon needs to get a couple of units out to moto journalists for evaluation, that will do more for them than anything else. I would suggest Troy Siahaan as he's ridden the Lightning and raced Lightfighter.
It appears to me that they plan to use one common drivetrain (Hyperdrive) and they'll just add more battery to hit the higher power and range numbers. That will add weight of course but having common components would probably reduce assembly complexity, parts inventories, etc.
I am very interested in their claim that they'll use battery structure somehow to bear loads. That and their 48# motor: I think that's half what Remy and Parker weight for comparable outputs.
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I meant the Damon team members that came from Alta have a proven record making good electric bikes.
As for trying to get Troy Siahaan to test out a Damon, I beat you to that months ago. :)
I commented on one of Motorcycling.com's YT videos and for that very reason of racing the Lightfighter.
We'll see what happens in a lower Covid world.
They say it's a 16k rpm motor as well.
Very interesting platform.
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I reminded myself that Sears Roebuck used to sell motorcycles and scooters though their catalog sales. The bikes came in a shipping crate and included very complete instruction on how to assemble them. I used to own a 1958 Sears Allstate (Puch) 125cc motorcycle. Sears offered a compete service and repair manual, along with a parts book which allowed you to order any part on the bike though their catalog system. It was all very efficient - back in the day. To my knowledge, Sears didn't offer any repair or maintenance program. They pretty much left it up to the buyer to figure it out for themselves. But back then most motorcycle customers were pretty mechanically savvy and could deal with just about anything that might go wrong with a simple two-stroke motorcycle. BTW, it was a pretty lousy motorcycle with a top speed of 45 mph and had a solid rear suspension, so you had to take it easy when riding around a bumpy corner. ::)
However, I don't think this sort of business plan would work for electric motorcycles considering the state of the technology and relative lack of people who know how to work on them.
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They say it's a 16k rpm motor as well.
Very interesting platform.
Does no one else notice that the motor has a very high RPM and is quite narrow as well as long. There was another company that designed the powertrain for the LiveWire which has a very long and narrow motor and also has the same RPM range. Man I can't remember their name but I think it rhymed with fission? oh well probably coincidence
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Richard, there is a guy that brings one of those old Sears bikes to local car show.
Damon has said their plan is to have Damon service agreements with existing EV dealers, some Damon centers and house calls.
I think they feel the Tesla method worked well and will go with that at least for now.
Morgan, would you want them to put the IP in a trophy case? They bought it to use it.
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Richard, there is a guy that brings one of those old Sears bikes to local car show.
Damon has said their plan is to have Damon service agreements with existing EV dealers, some Damon centers and house calls.
I think they feel the Tesla method worked well and will go with that at least for now.
Morgan, would you want them to put the IP in a trophy case? They bought it to use it.
If they do that, training technicians to work on their biked is going to be an issue. There is a lot of equipment on the Damon that is not going to be very familiar to many service technicians. Just ask Zero. Some of these people are good and some are not. Without Zero's help to diagnose problems in real time I wonder how resolving problems would have turned out if it was left to the tech's knowledge? If Damon will be following Zero's service model that might work for a while, but eventually when a lot of bikes have been sold and are in use for some time, it could start to be an issue for the company. ??? They would potentially need a pretty sizeable staff to deal with service and repair issues and customer questions as sales increase.
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Morgan, would you want them to put the IP in a trophy case? They bought it to use it.
You sat through that hour and half long self-aggrandizement session on Zoom. You saw them talk down about all the other manufacturers simply buying "off the shelf" inverters, motors, battery modules (which is bullshit) while THEY. THEY built it all from the ground up. Themselves*! Which is why they're so much better than everyone else!
*except the motor may be Mission's motor
*and the inverter
*and the batteries are from Samsung
They appear to be just patting themselves on the backs for things they haven't done while lording their non-achievements over the rest of the industry who, by the way, are working very freaking hard and have gone through a lot to create the stuff they have. At the end it's the arrogance I find so insulting. And hypocrisy.
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They bought Mission's IP, why are you upset they're using it?
-Crissa
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maybe re-read the post above until it sinks in
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I'm pretty sure my statement holds up.
There's a big difference between graphing their numbers outside the envelope and just being sour.
-Crissa
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You should definitely point out the flaws in my assertions.
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You should definitely point out the flaws in my assertions.
They bought Mission's IP, why are you upset they're using it?
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Looking at the specs I am not seeing ABS, Traction control, rider modes or adjustable regen mentioned. Did I miss them?
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Yeah ultrarnr, I don't see them listed at the moment either. I want to say they talked about it in some videos but I wouldn't know where to look right now.
I know they have to have ABS to sell in the EU (and Canada it seems), which they have said they wanted to do.
I'll get back to ya on that one.
I have seen that the bike has a left side lever. That may be a rear brake lever because of the Shift foot peg movement but that's just my guess.
It "could" be a regen lever but again that's just a guess on my part.
Edit: I found at least one picture of a rear right side brake pedal so... That (again) "might" be the unicorn "adjustable regen lever" that so many people have said they wanted.
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Looking at the specs I am not seeing ABS, Traction control, rider modes or adjustable regen mentioned. Did I miss them?
Multiple magazine stories have mentioned that the bikes (the Hypersport at least) will have ABS as well as TCS.
I don't recall rider modes being mentioned, but AFAIK virtually all mid-priced+ are fully computer controlled anyway, and have them.
Haven't seen adjustable regen being mentioned either.
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Hi, New2Elec, came to talk to you and the others about the HyperDrive revelation, but I'm clearly already late to the party ;D ;D
Nevertheless, I'm gonna leave here a link to the HyperDrive features Damon have posted on their blog:
https://blog.damon.com/the-numbers-behind-damons-motorcycle-powertrain/
Hope you find it interesting.
The Hyperdrive part of the blog post is content-free PR obfuscation. "HyperBoleDrive" would be more appropriate.
I doesn't say anything about what's special about it vs. any other BEV. "multi-variant" is a joke -- any BEV with multiple battery options does this, and they also limit charging, battery output (and so motor power) according to the specific model they're present in.
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Generally, I don't see the release of two additional models as a good thing this early. It creates a lot more work in terms of engineering testing, production configuration management, and fragments inventory.
They have far too much on their plate as it is, for a startup.
I expect they suddenly got cold feet about the $24K price, but still -- they don't really now how sales will go at this point. It would make a lot more sense to have a couple of prototypes of the 15kWh-battery bike ready to go, but not announce it, and then if after real sales start it looks like price is a major factor' they can launch it then.
The 11kWh variant is ridiculous -- the range is unbalanced vs. the rest of the bike, and there's nothing IMO it makes sense to use it for; also, I seriously doubt there are people who would be fine with spending $17K on the 11kWh but not $20K on the 15kWh.
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Let's take the 2018 Zero DS and DSR for example. In the US for that year both had Zero's 14.4 kWh battery.
The motor and controller were the difference in the two bikes' performance levels. It made it easier for them to build up a lot of the same battery packs but they had to have two "shelves" for different motors and controllers.
A Tesla S85 and their P100D also clearly have more than "just" a different battery pack.
Damon's approach uses the same HyperDrive unit for all variants with the battery cell configuration being the difference.
This allows bulk builds for the units and bulk buys for battery cells which should help to keep costs and manufacturing complexity down.
Wavelet have you applied to take a test ride?
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Sorry I see you made a third post.
My last post addressed the first two points of your last post.
As for the third.
For my own preferred riding style I want range. Where I ride there is one gas station that I ever go past and no charging stations AC or DC so it's range for me.
So many other people who live in areas where both AC and CCS charging is plentiful have continuously beat the drum of "faster charging cures all problems".
This bike's setup would go over very well in the EU (and the UK) with their license and other restrictive regulations making a very powerful bike a hassle to own with jumping through so many hoops.
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Let's take the 2018 Zero DS and DSR for example. In the US for that year both had Zero's 14.4 kWh battery.
The motor and controller were the difference in the two bikes' performance levels. It made it easier for them to build up a lot of the same battery packs but they had to have two "shelves" for different motors and controllers.
A Tesla S85 and their P100D also clearly have more than "just" a different battery pack.
Damon's approach uses the same HyperDrive unit for all variants with the battery cell configuration being the difference.
Looks like I was unclear. The battery config is not the only difference.
If max power is different but the motor & inverter are physically the same, it's SW-configured; nothing unique to Damon about that.
Tesla has has several cases where two different models had the same physical motor, but a SW limitation on how much power they would let through the inverter.
The Hyundai Kona EV has two variants, one with a 39kWh battery & 100kW motor, and the other 64kWh battery & 150kW;
AFAIK, the motor is the same physically, a giveaway is that the peak torque is identical.
However, I'd certainly consider the HV cables to be part of the drivetrain. If all three variants have the same cables, the two lower-power ones are overs-pecified, meaning the cables are both more expensive & heavier (lots of copper) than they need to be; maybe the difference isn't that much, I'm not sure.
This allows bulk builds for the units and bulk buys for battery cells which should help to keep costs and manufacturing complexity down.
Yes, but apart from the inventory commonality, there is still the extra engineering complexity of the software.
You either need 3 different SW builds for the 3 variants, which is a pain (and every time you make a change, you really need to test all three separately, as edge cases might be very different: The bike variants have different weights, different acceleration envelopes, different motor-heating curves and so on.)
I'll buy that the adjustable-ergonomics system is independent of the power/battery variant (it also needs SW, by the way, to deal with issues, e.g., one of the motors doesn't work, so you don't want, say, footpegs changing and handlebars not, or, even worse, the left footpeg changing and right one not).
However, the Situational Awareness system does need to know the bike's performance envelope in terms of acceleration & braking, in order to identify threats.
For a SW-heavy product, this is a configuration management nightmare. As a former SW professional, this is a no-no for a small company, particularly one making a safety-critical product.
Wavelet have you applied to take a test ride?
I'm two continents too far for that, unfortunately. I'll have to live vicariously through you folks :(
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Looking at the specs I am not seeing ABS, Traction control, rider modes or adjustable regen mentioned. Did I miss them?
I contacted them and they confirmed both ABS and Traction Control. They said they would add it to the specs at the next web page update.
They said they couldn't confirm what the left side lever was for at this time. :)
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Wavelet, Damon seems to be saying their bikes HS, SX, SE will basically be the same bike but with different battery configurations which lowers the range and power for each model. Maybe different software maps as well but they didn't elaborate to that extent.
You can read through some of the comments on their FB page and see their responses.
They seem to feel it's the best way to have the bikes setup so we'll have to wait and see how it goes.
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NEW2elec, Do you have any insight into why Damon decided to use a sport bike configuration as their base model? It seems to me that if you are going to design a bike with adjustable ergos that it would make more sense to start with something like the Energica Ribelle. Then you could adjust to more sport bike like the Ego or more upright like the EsseEsse9.
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It's a curious choice to be sure given that the sportsbike market is almost dead.
Cas :)
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You can watch the last interview I posted where Jay talks about going with a sport bike for the "first" offering.
Also talks about when they want to enter the UK.
He also talk about what I picked up on early on. Do it just like Tesla. So Sporty exciting Tesla Roadster came out first and for Damon the Hypersport comes out first.
HS
SE
SX
Going down what do those model's second letters spell? A bit like Tesla's models S3XY, huh. :)
He mentioned how their HyperDrive drive train/battery combo setup can be used in adventure bikes and "other" platforms.
They have a time line projection on their main website with goals up to 2030.
Quite simply they intend to be major EV players.
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Hm I'm really not sure about that, the motorcycle market is so utterly alien to the car market.
Cas :)
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That's just it, Tesla's business model was utterly alien to the car market too.
It worked pretty well for them though.
Here in the US there is a company called Carvrana which is an online (mostly) only used car seller. It works because at least in the US people HATE dealing with car dealers.
It's an unnecessary middle man mark up. One person may pay thousands more for the same car as someone else.
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The US car industry model is already as absolutely whacko as it is possible to be, they deserved to be blindsided. We genuinely appreciate dealers here for the aftersales backup, and it's a major impediment to "online" vehicle sales in, say, the UK, because we won't buy something if we've got to drive 50 miles to get it back to the dealer... assuming there even is one. Aprilia and KTM for example are hamstrung here because they don't have a big enough dealer network.
Cas :)
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It's a curious choice to be sure given that the sportsbike market is almost dead.
Sportbikes are the #2 largest segment in North America. And their market is interested in the latest-greatest technology.
Anyhow... It's almost fifty miles to the BMW dealer which services my Zero.
-Crissa
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Guys trained to work on electric motorcycles 50 miles away?
Interesting.
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Hopefully someone at Damon has spoken to an old timer at Zero who remembers why direct sales didn't for Zero so the same mistakes aren't made. And while Tesla does direct sales they also have brick and mortar stores where you can go to get a test drive or just check out one of their cars in person and talk to people about them.
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The podcast thread with Damon COO and co-founder of Alta Derek Dorresteyn addresses the problem with setting up a dealer network is that it costs almost as much as setting up production.
While Jay talked about the extra 12-15% you have to charge to offset the dealer's cut.
In the longer term, who knows, but for now test ride events and partnered service centers should cover most needs.
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But Zero clearly felt the cost to use dealers was worth it after trying to sell direct.Guess time will tell if it works for Damon.
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Anyhow... It's almost fifty miles to the BMW dealer which services my Zero.
Zero ought to set up a small garage bay at their factory and provide spectacular direct service in your area (and much of the SF Bay area). It could also be a facility for apprentice training and observation, for hardening the products, maintenance tools and procedures.