ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: ultrarnr on November 11, 2020, 03:30:49 PM
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So Energica has introduced their 2021 models. Seems the biggest difference across the board is the introduction of a RS model that has faster acceleration. The Ego, Ribelle and EsseEsse9 all have RS models that will be available next February. No mention of cost. The RS model gives you a different power delivery map, smaller front sprocket, different chain, and .2 seconds faster 0-60 time.
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And hopefully traction control remains a feature. ;)
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Seems a bit of a specialist feature eh :) Ever tried to hang on to a bike that does 0..60 in < 3 seconds? It ain't something you do often even if you can! (Or even... ever again)
Wish they'd put more R&D into losing 30 kilos.
Cas :)
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Totally agree.... That 30 kilos trimmed off would probably also give them that .2 seconds from 0>60 mph....
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I find myself wondering where all that weight is on the Energicas. The Zeros had until recently the same size battery or thereabouts and weigh a totally reasonable 225-odd kg. So that's 45kg of "stuff" lurking within the Energicas. I suppose there's a bit of extra weight with the liquid cooling - but it shouldn't be much.
Cas :)
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prince, I had a Zero SR and a Energica Eva 107 at the same time and it was really obvious why there was such a difference in the weight between the Eva and the SR. The Eva is physically a larger bike. It isn't the weight of a few individual components, it is the sum of the entire bike.
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I find myself wondering where all that weight is on the Energicas. The Zeros had until recently the same size battery or thereabouts and weigh a totally reasonable 225-odd kg. So that's 45kg of "stuff" lurking within the Energicas. I suppose there's a bit of extra weight with the liquid cooling - but it shouldn't be much.
Cas :)
And a gear box.
But I don't understand why the weight is such an issue to so many. I can ride my extra heavy SS9- at around 3 MPH with no problem and I cannot say even I then notice its weight. Below 3 MPH is also no issue. Walk with it with the slow forward and reverse.
I have had more issues with my SR being too heavy as it has no reverse. But it needs no slow forward because of the great slow speed throttle response in Eco mode. But it has no reverse, which can make it difficult just to get my SR out of the garage here. With my SS9, I simply press a button to reverse out.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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RS feature IMO is marketing bling meant to address an underlying issue w/ slim thermal margins for the (+) series particularly in the hands of aggressive riders and potential warranty issues that can result - the net effect is reduced loading on the battery pack and the VCU update simply retains the published top-end limit. Sorry for the realistic viewpoint - Energica is no different than any other manufacturer and I applaud them for taking such measures.
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Don, we know you, as an experienced rider, have no trouble with a heavy bike.
Most of us aren't you.
-Crissa
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Don, we know you, as an experienced rider, have no trouble with a heavy bike.
Most of us aren't you.
-Crissa
Try an Energica some time and tell us what you think. Modern bikes don't feel heavy when you once have them going a few MPH.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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But I don't understand why the weight is such an issue to so many. I can ride my extra heavy SS9- at around 3 MPH with no problem and I cannot say even I then notice its weight. Below 3 MPH is also no issue. Walk with it with the slow forward and reverse.
Weight (and height) is literally a massive issue for a large number of riders. Or would-be riders, because I'm 100% certain that many people are excluded from modern motorcycling by the trend for huge bikes with huge engines and tall seats. My wife can barely cope with her CB500F - it's the biggest bike we could get for her, and it's just on the cusp of being too tall for her, and at 189kg kerb weight, she can only just manoeuvre it on her own, and she is what I would describe as of typical height and strength for an ordinary woman. I totally understand how she feels, because I had to push an Energica about 2 yards, and I could barely move the thing, and I'm 6' and 14st. You have to realise that because you're big and strong - even if you think you are not - you actually really are big and strong. I'm not even going to be big and strong for much longer either... I can already feel myself getting weaker and things are starting to hurt and/or creak. And this is me, who has been riding R1150GSAs for 15 years.
And yes, no bike feels like it weighs anything once it's actually moving, the problem is when you're not moving, starting to move, or stopping, or trying to turn the thing around in the road on an adverse camber, or push the fecking thing to the side of the road because it's run out of juice, or trying to lift the thing off your leg after slipping over in the garage, etc.
Apart from that... heavy bikes simply don't go round corners or stop nearly as well as light bikes. Increase power and you go faster on the straights, decrease weight and you go faster literally everywhere else.
Cas :)
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Weight (and height) is literally a massive issue for a large number of riders. Or would-be riders, because I'm 100% certain that many people are excluded from modern motorcycling by the trend for huge bikes with huge engines and tall seats. My wife can barely cope with her CB500F - it's the biggest bike we could get for her, and it's just on the cusp of being too tall for her, and at 189kg kerb weight, she can only just manoeuvre it on her own, and she is what I would describe as of typical height and strength for an ordinary woman. I totally understand how she feels, because I had to push an Energica about 2 yards, and I could barely move the thing, and I'm 6' and 14st. You have to realise that because you're big and strong - even if you think you are not - you actually really are big and strong. I'm not even going to be big and strong for much longer either... I can already feel myself getting weaker and things are starting to hurt and/or creak. And this is me, who has been riding R1150GSAs for 15 years.
And yes, no bike feels like it weighs anything once it's actually moving, the problem is when you're not moving, starting to move, or stopping, or trying to turn the thing around in the road on an adverse camber, or push the fecking thing to the side of the road because it's run out of juice, or trying to lift the thing off your leg after slipping over in the garage, etc.
Apart from that... heavy bikes simply don't go round corners or stop nearly as well as light bikes. Increase power and you go faster on the straights, decrease weight and you go faster literally everywhere else.
Cas :)
The seat height is definitely an issue. I would never say otherwise. My Moto Guzzi is ridiculously high at the lowest setting and only goes higher from there. Weight is rarely an issue when you have a reverse. Sure, lighter bikes do better on curves when way above the speed limit or suggested curve speed. At least to me, that isn't much of an issue. And then a low COG helps. My SR is very top heavy with the power tank, but I normally don't notice it. I cannot say I ever had an issue with my Energica being heavy. Hopefully it stays that way.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Yes E has a weight penalty over Z. Can't be denied.
What does that extra weight buy?
That's the price of the noisy gearbox (boo), a chain that won't break inconveniently compared with Zero's inadequate belts (yeah!), and maybe those Brebos weigh more (worth it).
DC charging and the bigger battery option are of course not a free lunch. OTOH Zero's L2 charging on the / models beats E by a lot, E needs to fix that.
IF E can expand their dealer network while Zero's is shrinking (yo E, you should be knocking on doors!), they can catch up.
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The difference between the E and the Z when you have to pick them up off the pavement is not insignificant. Don't ask me how I know. :'(
I find myself wondering where all that weight is on the Energicas. The Zeros had until recently the same size battery or thereabouts and weigh a totally reasonable 225-odd kg. So that's 45kg of "stuff" lurking within the Energicas. I suppose there's a bit of extra weight with the liquid cooling - but it shouldn't be much.
Cas :)
And a gear box.
But I don't understand why the weight is such an issue to so many. I can ride my extra heavy SS9- at around 3 MPH with no problem and I cannot say even I then notice its weight. Below 3 MPH is also no issue. Walk with it with the slow forward and reverse.
I have had more issues with my SR being too heavy as it has no reverse. But it needs no slow forward because of the great slow speed throttle response in Eco mode. But it has no reverse, which can make it difficult just to get my SR out of the garage here. With my SS9, I simply press a button to reverse out.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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The difference between the E and the Z when you have to pick them up off the pavement is not insignificant. Don't ask me how I know. :'(
Yeah, the Zero can only be more difficult than the Energica. Ask me how I know.
No don't ask, I will show you:
See here. (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9964.msg89358#msg89358)
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I'm wondering if they offer the VCU software upgrade of the RS models to existing +-models. But then, until now I've never felt to not have enough acceleration already :)
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I feel the same, weight reduction is key.
as said by the best mechanical engineer ever, light is right. 8)
only fools are not looking for weight reduction ^^
it would improve Acceleration, range, braking, handling, low speed handling, increse lifetime for tires, brakes, Chain and sprockets...
Would be amazing to loose 40kg ;D.
please make a naked Lightweight version :D
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My 690 weighs under 90kg when you remove the engine, exhaust, radiator, and petrol. As I see it that leaves 100kg for batteries, cooling, electronics, OBC, and motor before it gets "too heavy". Certainly looks doable.
Cas :)
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Here is more news regarding the 2021 Energica model line. Beautiful bikes with more power than you really need:
https://electricmotorcycles.news/energica-unveils-the-2021-product-news-on-the-moto-it-festival-platform/
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What does that extra weight buy?
I would prefer it to weight even more if I could get a few other features such as a centerstand, 6 KW charging, travel trunk , etc. Weight is way down the list of the things I really care about.
It's a trade-off and we are all looking for different things. But I would take more features over a weight reduction any day.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I'd ditch the AC charging on-board, anything to trim weight down.
-Crissa
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That'd remove like 90% of the available public charging stations here in the UK... I think really they probably need to concentrate on getting the weight of those things down and down and down.
Cas :)
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I'd ditch the AC charging on-board, anything to trim weight down.
-Crissa
But you can. Even on your Zero. If you only charge at home, you can leave all your charging stuff there, by removing the bike's charger and find another way to keep the bike charged at home. Even from that same charger externally. You probably will have to make some longer cables or whatever.
But I often charge on the road. For an example, I have done rides around Lake Tahoe many times. Leaving from here as well as Reno, on both my Energica as well as my Zero SR.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Everywhere I go, there's a DC charger on the route. So there's no reason to haul around a bulky AC charger, honestly.
Sure, I need one at home. Not really a big deal.
-Crissa
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Everywhere I go, there's a DC charger on the route. So there's no reason to haul around a bulky AC charger, honestly.
Sure, I need one at home. Not really a big deal.
-Crissa
CCS chargers are common on the main routes in CA. Far from any large towns is the issue, Such as Susanville, Quincy, Alturas, etc. but in many of such places, you can still find AC to charge with.
In NV, it's the J1772 that is everywhere. No CCS charger even in Lovelock, NV and that is right on I-80.
I will head out to Death Valley in about a week in my RV, with my DS. Now they even have J1772 in DV, but no CCS.
On the road, I want to be able to charge no matter what I can find.
I just checked Plugshare, They are about ready to install CCS at the LoveLock, NV Safeway! Still no J1772. Things are changing fast! Almost every time I check Plugshare, I notice a new charge location these days, making range less important.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Is it possible for us to remove our AC charger, and keep DCFC? For track days, of course.
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DC charging doesn't use the AC charger at all. Not sure how much a discrete component it is, though.
-Crissa
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The AC charger only weighs 8 lbs.
I'd say its usefulness outweighs (heh) its mass.
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The AC charger only weighs 8 lbs.
I'd say its usefulness outweighs (heh) its mass.
Yep, I feel the same way with just about everything on the bike. I want more stuff, not less at the cost of weight. Such as a centerstand and 6WK AC charger.
-Don-- Auburn, CA
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I'll bet if you take the AC charger out you will have fault messages show up all the time.
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The DC infrastructure is growing so rapidly that there's no point in sticking with AC for road trips. I'd love a faster DC charging limit, like 30kW ;D rather than a painfully slow 6kW AC charger.
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YMMV, but here in the southern Appalachians, a moto Mecca, L1 and 2 AC are the main options at present. Energica's promised L2 3kW is barely tolerable, but in fact it's really only 2 kW on a good day. Which works fine overnight but o/w no, just no. The Energicas are far ahead of Zero on many levels, but the lame AC charging is limiting and frustrating.
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The DC infrastructure is growing so rapidly that there's no point in sticking with AC for road trips.
Still many issues these days, with DC Fast charge in the USA at some locations.
Here is one I noticed today in Hawthorne, NV. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/144823)The DC fast charging is "Out of Service". All of it.
But both the 6.6KW J-1772s are working fine at this same location.
I find a lot more J1772s than DC fast charge here in NV as well as when far of the main roads. And the J1772 is MUCH more reliable than the DC fast chargers that all run a complicated program that causes problems. J-1772 is very simple by comparison. J-1772 is simply an AC source--not a charger at all.
-Don- Tonopah, NV (RV trip with Zero DS)
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AC may be more reliable, but DC will always be faster. And lighter.
-Crissa
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AC may be more reliable, but DC will always be faster. And lighter.
Truuuuue that. Energica has said they aren't interested in making a 6kW AC charger for the bikes so the world's just gonna have to accommodate by installing more DC stations. J1772 is so 2018 ;D
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AC may be more reliable, but DC will always be faster. And lighter.
-Crissa
Long term, there may well be a shift to primarily DC charging outside homes/workplaces; however, DC charging at any appreciable rate is going to be more expensive because of demand charges (at least until stationary battery storage for buffering drops a lot in price), and the equipment is expensive since a higher-wattage grid connection is necessary.
That in turns makes DC stations economical only in highly-trafficked areas, which outside urban centers means along major highways.
IOW, I can't see DC charging stations placed along remote scenic backroads, which is where most of my riding trips are spent (I consider motorway travel on a motorcycle a necessary evil, but don't enjoy it -- locally, we call the motorway runs to get to the backroads "administrative riding").
Now it's true that for motorcycles, a 30kW-35kW rate might be sufficient -- we don't need 350kW chargers -- and the demand charges for that might not be prohibitive, but for the appreciable future, e-motorcycles will remain a rounding error within the overall BEV fleet (not counting commuter e-scooters which only charge at home), so I don't expect any charging network to install DC chargers focused on motorcyclists.
OTOH, locations that attract motorcycles, like restaurants on scenic mountain roads, might very well find it worthwhile to install L2 chargers.
(*)for sport-touring, my main interest, where I want to be able to do at least 150mi on a charge @ 70mph.
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At least here in Austria it seems as if much more (also smaller) DC charging stations are being built. Most recently, all dealerships from the VW-group now have at least 25 kW chargers installed which are perfect for our use case (gives around 16-18 kW).
They usually are paid, but can be unlocked with most of my cards/apps. Currently, this means 0.39 EUR/kWh for me.
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If you look on Energica's web site you will not see L1 charging mentioned. This is because they have slowed down L1 charging speeds so that with the 21.5 kWh battery it takes 24 hours + to fully charge. So if you are going on a road trip you need to stay at a place with L2 charging for overnight charging. I used to stay at the Microtel hotel in Robbinsville, NC when riding in western NC. They had outlets on one end of the building near the parking lot. Very easy to ride up and plug in and you weren't in the way. I did this with my Zero and Eva 107. Next morning you were fully charged. But places to stay in that area that have L2 charging are very limited and several are REALLY pricy. Bottom line is for people who are considering a new Energica you really have to consider installing a 220 volt outlet for L2 charging at home.
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Compromise not often talked about: would be happy to have 11KW DC charging... if it means we didn't have to lug 11KW of OBC equipment around with the vehicle. Moving the expensive-to-shrink-and-cool ACDC converter into the fuelling station is a win I think, where its size doesn't matter and it can be made large, simple, and robust. I'd much prefer to not have any AC OBC and all public charging to be DC. For home charging we'd simply move the OBC electronics to the wall. This will upset everyone invested in AC charging of course but right now *everyone* in EVs in a minority so a few feathers could afford to be ruffled.
Cas :)
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If you look on Energica's web site you will not see L1 charging mentioned. This is because they have slowed down L1 charging speeds so that with the 21.5 kWh battery it takes 24 hours + to fully charge. So if you are going on a road trip you need to stay at a place with L2 charging for overnight charging.
[...]
Bottom line is for people who are considering a new Energica you really have to consider installing a 220 volt outlet for L2 charging at home.
The reason for this might simply be that the US market wasn't their primary consideration when designing the bikes. In Europe 220V is standard and you can charge with 2.X kW everywhere, which enables overnight charging. I'm not using public L2 charging since I have to bring the Type 2 charging cable. DC on the road, granny charger overnight...
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reini, But the Eva 107 could be fully charged on 110 volts in about 9 hours or so. Overnight charging on 110 was no problem. While the Ribelle has a bigger battery than the Eva 107 it isn't over twice the size. But Energica has also slowed down the speed of CCS charging to. The Eva 107 didn't start to taper until about 70% SOC. The Ribelle will start to taper by 40%. Several times I have plugged in with about 20% SOC and the bike showed about 30 minutes to 80%. But both times it took about 40 minutes to reach 80%.
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At least here in Austria it seems as if much more (also smaller) DC charging stations are being built. Most recently, all dealerships from the VW-group now have at least 25 kW chargers installed which are perfect for our use case (gives around 16-18 kW).
They usually are paid, but can be unlocked with most of my cards/apps. Currently, this means 0.39 EUR/kWh for me.
That's quite interesting; VW Group cars (for Europe) all have 7kW single- or 11kW 3-phase charging (the latter becoming very common in newer models), while most new models have 100kW+ DC charging (except the "stripper" models like the ID.3 Pure, or Škoda iV50, which have 50kW).
Maybe 25kW DC chargers are significantly cheaper than the 50kW or 100kW+ kind to set up or operate (*);
If so, that leaves me hopeful that DC chargers aimed at motorcycles might become a thing (think the famous alpine passes etc.)
(*) and this is a way for the dealership to offer extra-mile customer service: every car coming in for service leaves with a SoC of 50% at least (kind of like washing the car after a service).
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Compromise not often talked about: would be happy to have 11KW DC charging... if it means we didn't have to lug 11KW of OBC equipment around with the vehicle. Moving the expensive-to-shrink-and-cool ACDC converter into the fuelling station is a win I think, where its size doesn't matter and it can be made large, simple, and robust. I'd much prefer to not have any AC OBC and all public charging to be DC.
I think as EVs begin to dominate the roads, there will definitely be a shift towards eliminating some of the charging losses, and getting rid of onboard AC chargers will be part of this. But we're talking 10+ years from now.
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I think as EVs begin to dominate the roads, there will definitely be a shift towards eliminating some of the charging losses, and getting rid of onboard AC chargers will be part of this. But we're talking 10+ years from now.
So then, how will people charge at home? That is close to where 90% of EV charging is done.
-Don- Tonopah, NV (RV)
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So then, how will people charge at home? That is close to where 90% of EV charging is done.
With a home charger? Why would you want to carry around a bulky, heavy charger when you can leave it at home when you don't need it?
You leave all but one of your bikes when you leave home.
-Crissa
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Maybe 25kW DC chargers are significantly cheaper than the 50kW or 100kW+ kind to set up or operate (*);
(*) and this is a way for the dealership to offer extra-mile customer service: every car coming in for service leaves with a SoC of 50% at least (kind of like washing the car after a service).
I've found the charger on my picture above at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Delta-Wallbox-Networked-Commercial-Charging/dp/B06ZY6N3S6 This is about a 1/3 of the price of a 75 kW one. For them it is certainly enough to charge cars while they are for service and also their demo cars. On the back of that charger, there was another 22kW 3-phase AC charger, so they could charge two cars at once.
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With a home charger? Why would you want to carry around a bulky, heavy charger when you can leave it at home when you don't need it?
You leave all but one of your bikes when you leave home.
-Crissa
One very common reason is so you can charge at somebody else's home. Not all EV chargers have the same output DC voltage. Say I need to charge my 315 VDC Energica at a house where they have no compatible chargers. Such as your 116 VDC output Zero charger. No can do. The nice thing about EV chargers is they work on any AC house voltage anywhere. DC doesn't.
There are many useful things I would like to add at the cost of the weight increase. Centerstand, 6KW charging are a couple of the main things I would want on my Energica.
With most charge stations in NV, I can charge my Zero SR (~8 KW) at a much higher rate than my Energica (3KW max).
With my SR, I have the best of both words. Most of the time, I do not take the chargers, I leave them at home except for longer trips. Having an easily removable AC charger could be the perfect answer to keep everybody happy.
-Don- Tonopah, NV (RV)
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One very common reason is so you can charge at somebody else's home.
If you need your charger, take it with you.
But you know what? The vast, vast majority of the time you're not charging at someone else's home.
And if DC chargers get more common, then it's quite likely they'll be more compatible. You don't have any trouble with that now, do you?
-Crissa
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So then, how will people charge at home? That is close to where 90% of EV charging is done.
You're talking about today's charging standards. Of course nobody would rip our their AC chargers. I'm looking out into a more distant future where hopefully everyone's driving EVs.
High powered onboard AC chargers in EVs today take up a significant amount of the total cost, and you can bet manufacturers will look towards eliminating that cost. I think of this as a good thing. Sure, it'll sting to buy a $2k+ AC/DC charger for your home but the lower cost of an EV without an onboard charger should offset that. Also, taking the onboard charger out of an EV removes a failure point, and a simpler machine is cheaper to maintain.
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Not so distant! With half of Europe announcing total bans on ICE vehicles within 10 years things are going to have to change pretty fast around here.
Cas :)
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Would it not be possible to standardize on DC charging vehicles only, but have small, affordable home-size DC chargers in the 1.5 kW to 7.68 kW range? All information I can find on DC chargers seem to be concerned only with commercial fast charging.
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The AC chargers are basically doing that, but are already plugged into the vehicle.
So yes, it's totally possible.
-Crissa
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You can use this to charge your Energica at 6kW at home: https://www.evseadapters.com/products/portable-chademo-ccs-combo-dc-quick-charger/
A bit large to travel with though.
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Four grand? Jesus wept.
Cas :)
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Our own Electric Cowboy makes/sells this: https://www.diginow.it/product-page/7kw-portible-ccs-charger
But yeah, we're definitely not there yet. hehe
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Doesn't it already ramp the charging?
-Crissa
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Crissa, Yes. At 80% SOC my Ribelle is charging at 15kW, 45 A. Energica has seriously slowed down the charging speed on the 2020 models. Last DCFC I did I started at 19% SOC. 22kW, 73A, taper started at 41% SOC, down to 21kW, 68A. At 50% SOC, down to 18kW, 58A. 60% SOC, 15kW, 49A. 70% SOC, 15kW, 47A. For comparison my Eva 107 didn't start to taper at all until 70%.
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if that allow us to keep batteries alive twice their current lifetime, imho that worth the effort to wait a few minutes more ;)
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This seems like a pretty decent, fair and thorough review of the Ribelle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiCUFBL8R8M&feature=emb_title
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Thanks for posting.
The video segment that shows L2 charge w/ battery @ 10% SOC is interesting, why does it draw only 2kW?
On mine, I haven't dropped below 20% SOC (maybe that's the reason?) but for the entire L2 charge duration up to 95% SOC mine draws a steady 3kW (14 Amps) as advertised.
I'm tapping into a 50Amp AC mains outlet - suspect voltage drop is cause for the disparity - certainly, I'm not complaining - just an observation.
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Also - the USA spec bikes do not get the nice rubber booties like the EU bikes for the L2/CCS connector inlets, does anyone know the regulatory reason behind this?
I'm 3D printing my own caps because the inlets lack weep-holes for drainage - will gladly share the STL files once the design is finalized - iterative attempts to optimize friction fit required - available time is spotty.
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The video segment that shows L2 charge w/ battery @ 10% SOC is interesting, why does it draw only 2kW?
I'm 99% sure that the EVSE the guy in that video is using is limiting the amount of amps the Ribelle to 11A. A quick google search shows that British electricity is 230V so that's 2.5kW. The outlet he plugged into looks like the English Type G 13A, maybe they limit the continuous current to ~80% of rated like us in the states?
I'm a little jealous that Europeans can pull 2.5 kW from a standard household outlet, I bet a lot of folks make due with that instead of buying dedicated charging stations!
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minute 25:20 what does 3 pence 50 mean? I got 5 cents us dollar for 3.5 pence sterling. that was 40 to 100%
minute 18:14 shows the display for charging off UK mains 10% to 100% 5 hours 40 minutes
I like the scenery on the various videos, some cliffs in the background but don't recall any riding that was not level.
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Bleh...I prefer the OEM booties but Energica won't sell 'em...
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Pm2Mq2J/0/0f9c7661/L/i-Pm2Mq2J-L.jpg)
PetG material, (2) piece design with gripper piece bonded to cap w/ RTV...
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-xMBSGqL/0/3a816def/L/i-xMBSGqL-L.jpg)
PM me for STL files if interested - works on single extruder printer, no supports necessary.
Gave up on friction fit because it requires good printer calibration - easiest to use frog tape on OD boss for best fit.
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minute 25:20 what does 3 pence 50 mean?
I think he says 3 pounds 50