ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Tech => Tech Help => Topic started by: oldnoah on October 27, 2020, 11:14:45 PM
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I bought my Zero S new in 2016. Between 2016 and 2018, I rode it about 26k miles. In 2018, I noticed that the charging cable was getting noticeably hotter. I tried cleaning the contacts in the cable, and in the bike, with electrical contact cleaner spray. Didn't help. Eventually the cable housing started to melt, so I bought a new cable (not zero, but I was sure to get a cable with 14 gauge wire). It seemed like it was running cooler for awhile, but eventually it got hot too. It melted and burned. In the fall of 2018, I noticed my battery was losing power, especially when it was below 20% state of charge, and I couldn't accelerate to faster than about 45 mph.
I called the place where I bought the bike, but they were no longer a Zero dealership. They offered to work on the bike, and said that they had wanted to remain a Zero service center when they stopped being a dealership, but Zero refused. I called Zero, and told them that there are no dealerships within the range of my bike, but that the dealership where I bought the bike wanted to be a service center, and they said "that's not possible." I also told them that I'm an electromechanical technician, and I could troubleshoot the bike with their help, and they told me I had to take it to a dealership. They would not help me.
Now, I used to be an automotive mechanic, and the dealership I worked at was an authorized Jaguar service center. We weren't a Jaguar dealer, but we sent mechanics to Jaguar to receive "Jaguar Factory Training" and we had a sign out front from Jaguar, saying we were an official Jaguar Service Center. So Zero's arguments fell flat with me. Of course they can authorize a bike shop to be a service center, as long as there isn't another dealership within the same territory.
The nearest Zero Dealership to me is 110 miles away. I literally can't ride it do that dealership because it doesn't have the range.
Eventually, I trailered the bike to the nearest dealership. They diagnosed it with battery failure, and replaced the battery under warranty, but claimed that the charging problem wasn't a problem. Maybe the cable got hot because of the battery problem. I was more inclined to think that the battery failed because the charging system is getting too hot, but whatever. I trailered the bike home, and next time I charged the bike, the cable got hot again, and burned the cable. I rode the bike to discharge the battery to less than 20%, and trailered it back to the dealer (consider now, that each time I drive to the dealership, I have to drive 220 miles. So a pick up and drop off is 440 miles, and I've done this twice). They claim they they charged the bike with a new "OEM Zero charging cable" and it didn't heat up. So they sold me a new cable, and I trailered it home again.
After riding it down to about a 40% charge, I plugged it in. I have a home made cable adapter with individual conductors, so that I can measure the amps in each leg of the charging cable, and a clamp on style amp meter, so I checked the charging on each leg. The hot and neutral leg each measured ~11.2 amps. I also measured the ground leg because the bike trips the gfci (another clue ?) and got 0 amps, but I probably need a higher resolution amp gauge to see the charge that trips the gfci. I measured the voltage in my outlet, without the bike charging it measures 122.2 V, and with the bike charging, it measures 117.2 V.
So at this point, Zero is telling me to trailer the bike back again, but I’m not willing to drive 400 miles just to have them tell me that there’s nothing wrong. I see some activity on this forum with people digging into their own bikes to fix or modify them, but Zero doesn’t seem to offer service manuals, or the ability to look through a part catalog. I haven’t ridden the bike much in 2 years, and its getting toward winter, so I expect to lose interest, but in the meantime, I’ve got this very expensive boat anchor that I don’t know what to do with.
Any suggestions?
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11.2 amps is about right at 120 VAC (120 VAC times 11.2 amps=1,344 watts). Be sure your cable is rated for 15 amps or better. There is no reason why it should overheat, the numbers are the numbers. But you should expect it to get warm.
If possible, charge with 240 VAC so your current draw will be half to get the same wattage, as well as increase the charger efficiency a bit. That will keep things a lot cooler and is better all they way around.
But your numbers are showing NO problem, so how hot is hot? Warm is expected at 120 VAC.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Cables slowly lose capacity as they age, are flexed, etc. Becoming hot is the symptom of the copper being frayed.
-Crissa
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11.2 amps is about right at 120 VAC (120 VAC times 11.2 amps=1,344 watts). Be sure your cable is rated for 15 amps or better. There is no reason why it should overheat, the numbers are the numbers. But you should expect it to get warm.
If possible, charge with 240 VAC so your current draw will be half to get the same wattage, as well as increase the charger efficiency a bit. That will keep things a lot cooler and is better all they way around.
But your numbers are showing NO problem, so how hot is hot? Warm is expected at 120 VAC.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Hot enough to melt and burn the plastic around the terminals. Both in the cable, and in the receptacle in the bike. This happened with the original Zero cable. I was careful with the several replacement cables I bought to make sure they were 14 gauge wire. And one of those cables was an expensive "Hospital grade" cable. At this point, a brand new cable will melt on the first charge. It's not the cable.
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Perhaps you might see if you can find a 12 gauge cable. I have never had a power cable melt, either the Zero one or one that I bought off of Amazon. The only time I had a cable failure was when I connected a Zero cable to an old 16-gauge 50 foot extension cord and the cable ends melted together when the Zero cable was connected to the extension cord. I was able to cut the cord at the melted section, install a new 3-prong 120V connector and all was well again. I have owned three Zeros and none have gotten anything but warm at the end that plugs into the bike. I don't have a clue what might be your problem, unless there is something wrong with the male connector at the bike's frame. ???
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Noah,
There are a few things in your saga that raise alarm bells.
You stated the battery was losing power, especially when it was below 20% state of charge, and couldn't accelerate to faster than about 45 mph. In fact, that's normal behavior. It's not the battery that is losing power. It's the well-known "limp mode" where the computer limits power delivery to protect the battery and operate the motor safely as the battery voltage sags. It can be unnerving on the highway, as your throttle rotates but nothing happens. I do get the feeling that your battery was replaced unnecessarily, based on misunderstanding. At least, you didn't indicate why the dealer diagnosed it as the battery, and maybe they didn't but just replaced it? Zero describes reduced power in the manual for thermal reasons, but it would also behoove them also to document limp mode at low battery levels, since it may be resulting in costly, unnecessary battery replacements.
When you say the cable overheats and burns, is it the cable or the plug ends? Cables don't generally burn or melt because plugs burn first. They're where both the resistance and insulation are highest. A 12 gauge cable is required to operate between 10 and 15 amps if the cable is longer than 50 feet. However, EV charging draws constant current for long periods and that is another reason to use a 12 gauge cable even at shorter lengths. On my FX even at 650 watts I noticed the C14 receptacle on the bike gets quite hot, almost too hot to touch. I think these inlets are under-spec'd for the level of current draw. The inlet could be melting the C13 plugs on the end of your cables. Temperature increasing over time indicates the inlet blades are getting less conductive over time. They should be cleaned with contact cleaner and nail file, then treated with WD-40. It may be necessary to replace the inlet at this time.
After you got the bike back the second time, you didn't describe the reason the dealer needs to see it again. Is it still melting plugs, or is it tripping the GFCI? The latter problem has happened with other bikes, so you could research on this forum. I think many GFCI circuits are too sensitive and the solution is to plug it into a non-GFCI circuit.
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Hot enough to melt and burn the plastic around the terminals. Both in the cable, and in the receptacle in the bike. This happened with the original Zero cable. I was careful with the several replacement cables I bought to make sure they were 14 gauge wire. And one of those cables was an expensive "Hospital grade" cable. At this point, a brand new cable will melt on the first charge. It's not the cable.
There are only two possibilities, as shown by your own numbers:
1. A poor connection right where the plug mates with the bike.
2. An intermittent short in your OBC that was NOT there when you measured the current.
The only other possibility is that you measured the current incorrectly.
Ohm's law is *NEVER* incorrect. Your numbers for current draw proves NO problem during the time you checked.
No other possibilities that I can think of. IOW, you have a 15 amp rated cord with only 11.2 amps. Well within spec. Where is the possible problem?
Something is not adding up. You have to find out what it is.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Oh, if you've burnt a plug in the socket, the socket is damaged and needs to be repaired.
Contacts can become worn or carbonized and create heat via static resistance or arcing.
This is why I put my bike on a switched outlet, so that any arcing is confined to the switch, not the bike's socket.
-Crissa
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Hot enough to melt and burn the plastic around the terminals. Both in the cable, and in the receptacle in the bike. This happened with the original Zero cable. I was careful with the several replacement cables I bought to make sure they were 14 gauge wire. And one of those cables was an expensive "Hospital grade" cable. At this point, a brand new cable will melt on the first charge. It's not the cable.
There are only two possibilities, as shown by your own numbers:
1. A poor connection right where the plug mates with the bike.
2. An intermittent short in your OBC that was NOT there when you measured the current.
The only other possibility is that you measured the current incorrectly.
Ohm's law is *NEVER* incorrect. Your numbers for current draw proves NO problem during the time you checked.
No other possibilities that I can think of. IOW, you have a 15 amp rated cord with only 11.2 amps. Well within spec. Where is the possible problem?
Something is not adding up. You have to find out what it is.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Ohm's law is never wrong, but anywhere there is a high resistance in a circuit more heat will be generated. I can't tell whether heat is being generated in the receptacle, or if it's being transmitted down the wires from the charging unit TO the receptacle. But it's not being caused by the cable.
Obviously, if it's just the receptacle, the fix should be pretty easy. I just have to convince the Zero dealer to do it, or tear it apart myself and see what I can do about finding parts that fit. Zero is definitely not helpful. And I don't want to drive another 400 miles just to have them tell me there's still nothing wrong.
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Oh, if you've burnt a plug in the socket, the socket is damaged and needs to be repaired.
Contacts can become worn or carbonized and create heat via static resistance or arcing.
This is why I put my bike on a switched outlet, so that any arcing is confined to the switch, not the bike's socket.
-Crissa
We agree on all for a change! I think my first guess is the most likely, the damage is right at the bike's AC input. Perhaps he can clean the blades there somehow.
Never, and I mean never, plug in a hot AC cord into the bike. Also, do NOT disconnect from the bike while charging. Always disconnect from the opposite side of the AC cord every time or have a switch or whatever.
And always make sure you have a very good connection at the bike before the juice is applied.
And also, charge with 240 VAC if possible.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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If possible, charge with 240 VAC so your current draw will be half to get the same wattage, as well as increase the charger efficiency a bit. That will keep things a lot cooler and is better all they way around.
-Don- Auburn, CA
When I had the bike at the dealer's I told them I had seen posts online about charging at 240V, and asked how I could do it (playing a bit dumb). They told me it was a 120 volt system and that I shouldn't apply more voltage than recommended.
I've toyed with the idea of lopping off the (wall) connector on a charge cable and changing it to a dryer plug, so I could plug it into a 240 volt outlet. I assume that's what you're suggesting.
But given that there is clearly something wrong with the circuit, I tend to think that applying extra voltage could do damage, even if using a higher voltage on an undamaged charging circuit might be safe.
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Ohm's law is never wrong, but anywhere there is a high resistance in a circuit more heat will be generated.
Which makes me think of one other possibility.
OBC draws too much current, but the poor connection at the input drops it to a normal level. Rather unlikely, but still possible.
Most likely, the problem is right there at the bike's connector. But even that should drop the AC current reading.
So now the question is, is the AC current reading rock steady? If it's jumpy, it a poor connection heating up.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I've toyed with the idea of lopping off the (wall) connector on a charge cable and changing it to a dryer plug, so I could plug it into a 240 volt outlet. I assume that's what you're suggesting.
That is literally what I did: https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10041.0
Raising the voltage will lower the resistance. But yes, you need to replace that part on the bike first. It shouldn't be difficult.
-Crissa
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So now the question is, is the AC current reading rock steady? If it's jumpy, it a poor connection heating up.
-Don- Auburn, CA
I haven't held the voltage reading for any length of time, but it seemed steady to me.
I have to turn over the computer to my wife, now. So it will be awhile before I respond again.
Thanks.
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Oh, and the voltage reading was taken in the other outlet of the duplex. At OCV it's 122 volts. While charging it's 117 volts.
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When I had the bike at the dealer's I told them I had seen posts online about charging at 240V, and asked how I could do it (playing a bit dumb). They told me it was a 120 volt system and that I shouldn't apply more voltage than recommended.
I've toyed with the idea of lopping off the (wall) connector on a charge cable and changing it to a dryer plug, so I could plug it into a 240 volt outlet. I assume that's what you're suggesting.
But given that there is clearly something wrong with the circuit, I tend to think that applying extra voltage could do damage, even if using a higher voltage on an undamaged charging circuit might be safe.
Do NOT waste your time with that dealer any more. 2016 S Zero models can run from 100 to 250 VAC. Check your manual to be 100% certain. In fact, let me find it for you tight now . . .
See here for the 2016 S specs (https://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-reviews/zero-motorcycles/2016-zero-s-sr-ar171540.html)
"Input: Standard 110 V or 220 V"
They often call 120 & 240 by ten volts lower as that is how it started many years ago (kinda like a "2 x 4" doesn't measure 2" by 4" these days).
Not only that, I think the 2016 has the same charger as my bike and can really charge anywhere from 90 to 250 VAC. The sticker on the bottom of the charger will give the exact specs if there are doubts.
Yes, a drier outlet is fine, but you probably have to make your own adapter cable to mate with the bike.
I used drier outlets to charge all four of my EVs in the past. But now I used a Tesla Tap with a Tesla Wall Connector. I always charge with 240 VAC.
In fact, you can read the voltmeter here (https://www.plugshare.com/location/94986) when I was the very first to check in at King's Beach, because of their very weird outlet.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I haven't held the voltage reading for any length of time, but it seemed steady to me.
I assume you mean current. That is what you want to check, that 11.2 amps being rock steady.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I recently replaced the OBC on my bike that burned up while it was charging. See the attached photos of the replacement charger and note the inlet cable is attached to the charger box. To replace that you would need to cut off the cord from an old charger. I don't think it can be purchased as a separate part.
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I recently replaced the OBC on my bike that burned up while it was charging. See the attached photos of the replacement charger and note the inlet cable is attached to the charger box. To replace that you would need to cut off the cord from an old charger. I don't think it can be purchased as a separate part.
Thanks for that.
Just a little different than I expected.
I thought it was 90 to 250 VAC.
But now I see it's rated for 100 to 264 VAC on the input. So I was around 10 volts low.
Anyway, I wouldn't want to go to a Zero dealer who doesn't know we can use 240 VAC. Makes me wonder how little they know about the bike.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I recently replaced the OBC on my bike that burned up while it was charging. See the attached photos of the replacement charger and note the inlet cable is attached to the charger box. To replace that you would need to cut off the cord from an old charger. I don't think it can be purchased as a separate part.
How much did that part cost? And how hard was it to change?
I'm thinking it might be cheap insurance to change the whole charger, since I don't know if the heat has damaged anything.
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I recently replaced the OBC on my bike that burned up while it was charging. See the attached photos of the replacement charger and note the inlet cable is attached to the charger box. To replace that you would need to cut off the cord from an old charger. I don't think it can be purchased as a separate part.
How much did that part cost? And how hard was it to change?
I'm thinking it might be cheap insurance to change the whole charger, since I don't know if the heat has damaged anything.
$800 sourced from AF1 Racing in Texas. No shipping and no tax to CA. It was relatively easy to install and took two hours to complete the job. A second set of hands helps. There is a thread on this site that shows how to do it. I think the post with photos is in in the "toasted charger" thread.
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I recently replaced the OBC on my bike that burned up while it was charging. See the attached photos of the replacement charger and note the inlet cable is attached to the charger box. To replace that you would need to cut off the cord from an old charger. I don't think it can be purchased as a separate part.
Anyway, I wouldn't want to go to a Zero dealer who doesn't know we can use 240 VAC. Makes me wonder how little they know about the bike.
-Don- Auburn, CA
I don't have a choice. The nearest dealer is 110 miles away. It's the only dealer I can reach. To be fair, though, they said that they are motorcycle mechanics, not electrical engineers. So "the best they can do is to call Zero and "be their hands" while Zero talks them through it."
I think the people at the dealer where I bought the bike were far more savvy, but for whatever reason, they aren't a dealership anymore, and Zero won't let them be an authorized service center. That's what makes me the angriest at Zero.
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I think the people at the dealer where I bought the bike were far more savvy, but for whatever reason, they aren't a dealership anymore, and Zero won't let them be an authorized service center. That's what makes me the angriest at Zero.
The real problem is most likely that they cannot find anybody who knows how EVs work who doesn't already have a much higher paying job.
Zero cannot let them be an authorized dealer if they don't have anybody to do the work.
Reno had the same problem at the old Indian motorcycle shop, called Cycles and Gear. (https://www.renocycles.com/) They used to sell Zero and that is where I purchased my Zero DS in 2017. I believe Shadow (moderator here in this forum) can tell you more about that story, about why they are no longer authorized to sell Zero.
But many months later, Eurocyles in Reno (https://rideeurocycle.com/) became the authorized Zero dealer. I hear that shop is backed by BIG money, perhaps they can pay enough to keep their employees who know how Zeros work.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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The charger won't have been damaged internally by what's happening at the connectors and cables.
It's regrettable that the charger must be replaced to change the inlet, although someone qualified could replace the inlet separately.
Either way, the first step is to remove any oxidation and carbonization from the blades in the receptacle, by a concerted effort as described above. That should fix it and provide another 4 years of service.
If you do use 240 V, that will lower the power dissipated in the connectors and cable by a factor of 4.
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Curt is correct.
-Crissa
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BTW, the photos below show the AC power cord. It is the one at the bottom of the first photo with the black box on the cord. My recollection is that it is not a simple plug-in to the charger, but is attached is a secure manner and is not easy to remove from the charger box components.
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The plug ends (bike and cord) as mentioned, are marginal in power handling capabilities. We all note them getting warm to hot. More than once I've been concerned and considered replacing both with 30A rated M/F connectors. You might try this cheaper and much easier approach before taking a deeper plunge.
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Zero cannot let them be an authorized dealer if they don't have anybody to do the work.
-Don- Auburn, CA
First, the place I bought the bike at still has the same crew of employees. I don't know why they stopped being a dealer, but they were told by Zero that they couldn't be a service center because that privilege is reserved only for Zero dealers, and they wouldn't allow them to remain a service center unless they continued being a dealership. And Zero told me the same thing. From what I saw when I brought the bike there for a firmware upgrade, they had several people who were way more savvy than the anyone at the dealer I've been trailering it to.
Second: The dealer I've been trailering it to doesn't have anyone qualified to do the work. They literally said they aren't qualified, and can only do what Zero tells them to do over the phone. But they're still selling bikes.
Third, I worked at an authorized Jaguar service center. I wasn't a factory trained Jaguar mechanic, but the fact that we were certified to do work on Jaguars was enough to allow me to do work on Jaguars. If I ran into something Jaguar specific that required training, I either asked the Jaguar mechanics on site, or I called Jaguar directly for help. No one ever told me that they wouldn't take my call because I wasn't a factory trained Jaguar mechanic.
Zero is imposing this restriction on their own. They can choose to authorize a non-dealership to be a service center if they wish.
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Noah,
There are a few things in your saga that raise alarm bells.
You stated the battery was losing power, especially when it was below 20% state of charge, and couldn't accelerate to faster than about 45 mph. In fact, that's normal behavior. It's not the battery that is losing power. It's the well-known "limp mode" where the computer limits power delivery to protect the battery and operate the motor safely as the battery voltage sags.
<snip>
No, the battery was shot. They wouldn't have given me a brand new battery if it wasn't. But to your point about limp mode, that's not the behavior the bike had before the battery went dead, and it's not the behavior of the bike with a new battery.
After you got the bike back the second time, you didn't describe the reason the dealer needs to see it again. Is it still melting plugs, or is it tripping the GFCI? The latter problem has happened with other bikes, so you could research on this forum. I think many GFCI circuits are too sensitive and the solution is to plug it into a non-GFCI circuit.
It's still melting plugs. I think I mentioned in the original post that they sold me an official "Zero(tm) charging cable" and it burned on the first try.
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Look here.....
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10514.0
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It's still melting plugs. I think I mentioned in the original post that they sold me an official "Zero(tm) charging cable" and it burned on the first try.
Yeah, like I said, once a socket has had a fire in it, it has to be repaired. Of course this would happen again. No electrician should have let you go out without fixing that.
-Crissa