ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: AdamG on October 03, 2020, 11:40:44 PM
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Hi everyone, new member here! I joined this forum because I just got a 2011 Zero DS last week! The test ride before purchasing went great, but now that I’ve been using it for a week, I’ve found a few quirks that I could use help solving.
1. I can’t get a 100% charge. The charger never shows the green LED. I get the yellow 80% LED flashing, which supposedly means the charger and BMS are balancing, or that the BMS is cutting off the charge because 1 or more cells have reached capacity (at least, that’s what the manual says). I don’t understand why the BMS would cut off the charge if some cells are at capacity while others are not. Is it not the whole purpose of the BMS to balance the cells? How can it ever achieve full charge if it cuts off when 1 cell is fully charged but the rest aren’t?
Or is this just a sign of a failing battery pack?
2. I’m not sure how these twist throttles are meant to behave, but mine seems off. The total rotation range is 90 degrees, but I can only use about 15 degrees of rotation to go from a stop to full speed, then I have to try and find micro degrees between the extremes to cruise at a slower speed like 70kmh. Twisting all the way open doesn’t make the bike go any faster than twisting a tiny bit. Almost seems like my top speed is being limited. If I go up a slight incline the bike starts to struggle and slow down, but I can't give it any more juice because further twisting of the throttle doesn't give me more power or speed. I think the top speed is currently around 85kph, but I can’t be sure because of problem 3...
3. Speedometer seems way off. Either everyone around me in their vehicles has decided to go 100kph in an 80 zone, or my speedometer is incorrect. Sure didn’t feel like I was going 100. It looks like the speedometer resets itself during the start-up boot sequence, so I would think it's properly calibrated each time the bike is turned on, so what would throw this off?
Sorry for the long post. I'll likely have more questions about other issues too, but I'd like to find solutions to these larger issues first.
Any help is appreciated!
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Hi everyone, new member here! I joined this forum because I just got a 2011 Zero DS last week! The test ride before purchasing went great, but now that I’ve been using it for a week, I’ve found a few quirks that I could use help solving.
1. I can’t get a 100% charge.
My guess is that your on-board charger voltage is low. If you can get your hands on an old external charger (https://www.af1racing.com/Used-USACAN-Quick-Charger-for-Zeros), it should then charge to full. The only difference should be the plug.
I assume you're somewhere in Europe or some other country because you used "km".
I assume the 2011 bikes in Europe are the 2012 models here in the USA. See if your external charge connector is the same color as on the above Q-charger. It's located just above the motor.
-Don- Reno, NV, USA
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And #3 might explain #2. The bike finds its speed by the rotation of the motor, and if it's reading high, then it's going to tamp down on the power to the motor thinking it's at maximum.
-Crissa
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#3 are not sure this is not a km per hour to mile per hour problem ? if so look at the manual and chenge the unit setting
For the 1 you might look for an external charger. There are some on ebay, or look at AF1Racing
#2 is a potentiometer. You might mook for a new part on AF1racing or looking for a broken 2011 model
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It's not a unit issue, his speedo is reading high (100 at what he thinks is 80) but if it was in MPH it would be reading low (about 50mph travelling at the 80km/h limit). If it's running a chain (I found images of supposedly 2011 bike running both chains and belts) it could be that a previous owner changed the gearing. The Unofficial Manual only goes back to 2012 but those had a 4.64:1 ratio.
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Is there a simple way to test the charger before I just go buy a new one? It'll cost an arm and a leg to ship it here since it's heavy, so I need to be sure that'll fix the issue.
Not from Europe, I'm in Canada, just north of you ;D
This bike has the Agni 95R brushed motor with belt drive. There was an optional sprocket/chain you could purchase, but I'm pretty sure the previous owner didn't swap anything around. It looks like the gauges are Koso RX-1N and the speedometer works off a magnetic sensor mounted at the motor. Maybe the sensor is dirty and it's not getting a clear signal? The bike was pretty dirty when I got it. There's only a few settings I can play with in these instruments, and I'm positive I'm on the KPH setting, not the MPH. There's a submenu you can get into for calibrating the speed that I found at the unofficial manual
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Instrument_Cluster (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Instrument_Cluster)
Thing is, it says the stock setting is "1972 28-132 2P", but in my menu I can only enter 4 numbers before the "-2P". I thought maybe this 4 digit number is supposed to be the circumference of the rear wheel in mm's, so I entered that. Then the speedo was way off. I was going 80kph when I was creeping along. The original setting was "0546-02P". I'm guessing I just fiddle with those numbers until I get something that feels right?
I've discovered the twist throttle is a Magura 5k ohm potentiometer type. I disconnected the wires to it and tested the resistance at different twist positions. I am getting around 0 when closed, and around 5k when fully open. I say "around" because wherever I hold the grip steady the ohms jump around. They don't stay completely set at a number for a held position.
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Here's the gauges
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The throttle potentiometer
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Those numbers are the sprocket sizes, although this table doesn't have the 28:132 combination but that could be what the 2011 had.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Sprocket_Specifications
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The only real way to test the charger or battery is to plug it into different equipment. You'd need another charger at least.
-Crissa
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Is there a simple way to test the charger before I just go buy a new one? It'll cost an arm and a leg to ship it here since it's heavy, so I need to be sure that'll fix the issue.
You probably can measure the charging battery voltage on the external battery connector when keyed on. I am not sure what the 2011 battery voltage is, but the battery voltage should always be higher when charging than when not charging. If you find the battery voltage lower than it should be when charged as much as possible and very little increase in voltage when the charger is added in the circuit compared to it not being added in, it's a good indication that your charger voltage will not go high enough to do any further charging. When charged much less, you will see a greater difference. So first check when not near fully charged and see if you notice a much less of a difference than that near the end of the charge (as high as you can get the SOC).
Remember that you're dealing with high voltage, so be careful.
But you can bet your on-board charger (OBC) is the problem. It's a rather common problem. That AF1 charger is extra cheap and I would go that route first before buying a new OBC. And then you can still use the AF1 charger along with the OBC and is also a good backup as well as good for troubleshooting your problem. And it should charge to full when both chargers are used, and will still be a much faster charge than only using the OBC.
They were asking much more for that same charger just a few months ago. They must have had it in stock a while and dropped the price. I doubt you will ever find one at that price again, even with the shipping to Canada added in.
I say "around" because wherever I hold the grip steady the ohms jump around. They don't stay completely set at a number for a held position.
Are you using an analog meter? They don't jump around nearly as much when things are not perfectly steady. I find digital meters to be a poor choice for MOST troubleshooting.
-Don- Reno, NV
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According to the manual, this bike came with a 28 : 200 tooth belt sprockets. If the sprocket sizes are what I'm supposed to enter into the speedometer menu, then I would need one more space for a 5th digit. I only have space for 4 digits, so not sure how that would work. I've resorted to playing with the numbers and judging how traffic is reacting around me. I think I have it close. I should probably get a friend to drive beside me to confirm with the speedo in their vehicle.
Don, I'll try taking some readings from the charger and battery and see what it's spitting out. I don't really have the need to charge it any faster than the standard 4 hours, but if my readings are off I'll be sure to get a new charger. Thanks for the tip about AF1!
I was using a digital multimeter for testing the throttle potentiometer resistance. I do have an old timers analog one, but it's a confusing mess to use. I ended up using some Deoxit spray, and gave the pot a squirt and rotated it back and forth a zillion times. The readings are waaaay better now, and the throttle has better response. It might be fixed? Before, when I was driving and trying to hold a speed, the bike would kind of surge or lurch. It's better now, but still does it. I have to really pay attention to notice it though, so it's much more subtle. I should probably just get a new throttle to be safe, but I'll see how it goes.
A new developement regarding my top speed; I contacted the previous owner and asked him about how the bike seemed to limit my top speed. He told me that he had to replace the Alltrax motor controller last year and he programmed it to have reduced max amps so that it wouldn't burn out this controller like it did the last. So that explains that! I just need to get me a serial to USB cable, download the software, change that back to stock settings and everything should be tickity-boo!
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For the sprocket number you could try dividing both by 4 to get 7:50 (so enter 0750). That would make sense with the 0546 that it was previously, 5:46 is kind of close but still off. It thinks you have a higher gear than you actually have so it thinks you're going faster than you are, assuming you do actually have 28:200 sprockets.
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There's been a recent development; I got the green LED 100% charge! I think driving the bike all week cycled the batteries enough times to balance out the cells. So glad that issue took care of itself.
Thanks for all the help and suggestions everyone! Not sure if I'll get any more riding in this year. Temperatures are dropping to the unpleasant level for motorcycles. I might do a few test runs after playing with the Alltrax programming, but other than that I'll just be tucking the bike away for the winter.
Actually, I might be pulling the bike apart to make some modifications, so I'll likely have some more questions that I'll put in a new thread.
Thanks again!
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More recent developments.
I got the serial to USB cable and connected to my Alltrax controller to adjust the max amp output. When I got into the menu's I found that it was set at 90%, but after doing some searching on this site, I found that the stock setting is supposed to be 90%. I also learned that it doesn't really matter what the settings are in the controller because it's all actually controlled by the MBB. Now I need to build a cable to plug into that and try to learn what to do to alter those settings because I'm still only getting a top speed of about 90km/h.
I tried adjusting the speedometer to the 0750 figure that was suggested and the result was when I was traveling at what felt like 80km/h, the gauges were maxed out at 120km/h and blinking at me. Clearly not the right setting. I put it back to the 0515 setting I had previously set.
And my throttle is still out of wack. Twisting it from 0 to halfway does the whole speed range, and anything over halfway does nothing. Again, this might be something I can fix in the MBB settings, or maybe I just need to try another twist throttle.
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Adam,
I've had similar problems with my 2011 S. My stock throttle had the entire range, but when I had trouble with the throttle shutting off and refusing to go beyond 35 MPH, I bought a new throttle. My new one has about 50% usable range, like yours, where the final 50% does nothing. I hate it, but can't figure out how to fix that glitch.
As for the speedometer, I had to recalibrate mine after I put on a new sprocket. There are two ways to do it:
1) At the speedometer. My stock gear ratio of 98-tooth rear / 28-tooth front = 3.5:1
My tire circumference is 1910mm.
1910 divided by 3.5 = 0545, which is what my speedometer was set to before I changed the sprocket.
2) At the motherboard. You need to buy the cable that connects from your computer's USB port to the motorcycle's parallel port located under the plastic "gas tank". Download the free program call Putty, which lets your computer communicate through the USB cable. (Settings are COM4, 9600 baud, serial, password="1.21gigawatts")
In there, you can change front and rear sprocket sizes and wheel diameter. Note that the wheel size is in inches. Mine was set to 73.51 inches.
I don't know if changing the motherboard setting affects the performance or if it just changes the information that gets sent to the speedometer. Might need to play around with it and see.
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Alan,
It is disappointing that such a simple device like a throttle potentiometer would cause so much trouble. I'm aware of the method of accessing the Main Bike Board to tinker with some settings (as per the unofficial manual page), and I've ordered the parts to build that cable, but I'm still awaiting delivery. I have a tiny bit of experience with putty, so I hope everything is relatively easy to navigate and edit once I'm in there.
I did come across this posting that points to a throttle setting in the MBB that controls how fast the bike accelerates. I think I'll try adjusting this setting first and see if it has any effect on the top speed. Probably won't, but worth experimenting with:
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2925.msg14635#msg14635
If I can't make any headway in the MBB, I'll try replacing the twist throttle with this one. I've heard good things about it:
https://www.electricmotorsport.com/ev-parts/throttles/twist-action/domino-twist-grip-throttle-with-microswitch.html
Or I might make my own throttle, using this generic throttle pot/cable set-up and use a normal cable operated twist grip off any motorcycle:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=100859
The benefit of this, is that the extra friction added by the cable and pulley will make it feel more like a traditional motorcycle throttle. This should smooth out any little blips of acceleration that occur when hitting bumps and potholes that causes your hand to twist a tiny bit. I never did like how effortless it is to turn the existing throttle. Too easy to get into trouble.
The downside is you need to find room somewhere to mount this big pot box and run the extra cable.
I had stumbled across another post here on the forum that determined the state of charge in your battery also affects your top speed. I mean, that's a logical assessment for electric motors and batteries, but when my gauge shows that I still have half a charge (or more) left in the battery, you'd think I'd still be able to go full speed. I'd imagine that the closer your battery got to being 'empty' is when it starts reducing your top speed.
As for the speedometer; I think you're onto something there. Your 0545 is very close to my guess-and-test 0515, so I'll give your calculation method a try and see if that sorts out my speedometer issue.
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Why is it disappointing, that the main thing that you use to tell the bike to go, would cause problems when it wasn't telling the bike to go?
-Crissa
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Adam,
Try plugging in the correct numbers in the speedometer formula. I believe that your DS has the same ratios that my S had before I changed a sprocket.
As for the batteries, I noticed that my Zero does perform better (faster!) during the first 80% of battery charge. It runs consistently during that whole 80% range, with no drop in speed. But then, at around 20% charge, power drops off fast and I have trouble going more than 40 MPH.
Also, the air temperature really takes a toll on something (battery? motor? controller? I don't know.) When the temperature is more than 80 degrees (Fahrenheit), my Zero runs good, accelerates smoothly, and I've had it up to 62 MPH. But when the weather is cooler than 80 degrees, it accelerates slowly and has a top speed of about 50 MPH. If I twist the throttle, I can hear/feel a faint electrical 'Hmmmmm' but the motorcycle will barely accelerate. It doesn't do that in hot weather.
Fortunately, I live in south Texas, where the temperature is over 80 degrees for 9 months.
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I'll give the new speedometer formula a go in the spring. Too cold (and too much snow) to do anything with it now.
The main problem I was having is that I can never go faster than 80km/h regardless of my battery charge level, ambient temperature, motor temperature, or throttle position. I could hop on the bike with a full charge and rip the throttle wide open and it would still only go 80km/h.
It's a perplexing problem, but similar to the speedometer issue in the way that I can't really do anything about it right now until the snow melts.
Thanks for the suggestions though! I'll eventually get the chance to experiment and then I'll report back.
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I'll give the new speedometer formula a go in the spring. Too cold (and too much snow) to do anything with it now.
The main problem I was having is that I can never go faster than 80km/h regardless of my battery charge level, ambient temperature, motor temperature, or throttle position. I could hop on the bike with a full charge and rip the throttle wide open and it would still only go 80km/h.
It's a perplexing problem, but similar to the speedometer issue in the way that I can't really do anything about it right now until the snow melts.
Thanks for the suggestions though! I'll eventually get the chance to experiment and then I'll report back.
It occurs to me that is the same response you would get from having your bike in "eco" mode, except that the top speed would be limited to 70 mph. In eco mode you can twist the throttle all you want and the bike will not exceed 70 mph.
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I've heard about this 'eco mode', but the 2011 DS didn't have any options in the gauges to adjust Modes. All I can really do with my gauges is switch from metric to imperial measurements, and fiddle with the speed reading calibration.
I wonder if there's an eco mode setting in the MBB that somehow got activated?
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Or maybe the drive train just doesn't have the power to go any faster. ??? I seem to recall that one of the motorcycle magazines tested the 2011 Zero S when it first came out and its top speed was only 65 mph, with a 20 mile range.
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I wonder if there's an eco mode setting in the MBB that somehow got activated?
No, there isn't. But one of the options in your MBB is the status/voltage of your battery cells. My battery is about 57 volts at a full charge. At 80% charge, it's about 54 volts.
The range on mine is about 25 miles, top speed about 65 MPH, but since most of my trips are within 5 miles and the speed limit in town is no more than 35 MPH, that's acceptable.
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“2..... Twisting all the way open doesn’t make the bike go any faster than twisting a tiny bit. Almost seems like my top speed is being limited. If I go up a slight incline the bike starts to struggle and slow down, but I can't give it any more juice because further twisting of the throttle doesn't give me more power or speed.....“
I’m experiencing a similar thing with my 2016 DSR with 54k (miles).
It seems to me that the battery is getting weak and limiting the amperage it will release.
With a full (or near full) charge you don’t use as much amperage as the voltage is at its max.
But as the charge level decreases so does the voltage so amperage must increase in order to maintain a given wattage.
It was suggested that the batteries internal resistance has increased.
See here.... https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10704.0
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It could certainly be that the battery pack is on its way out and just can't produce enough amps to keep up with your throttle demands. The other possible explanation that I can think of is a defective throttle, as it is my understanding that some of the 2011 Zeros had defective throttle assemblies. But my money is on a tired battery pack. After 10 years of usage, I can imagine that it is starting to give up and should be replaced if you want your original performance to return. But replacing (and disposing) of the batteries is not going to be an easy task as I bet those batteries are no longer being made. You would have to replace them with some off-the-shelf items and that is not going to be easy or simple. You won't get any support from Zero or their dealers, unfortunately.
If it was me, I would just get used to the lower performance as I always tend to take the easy way out of a problem. Either that or just give up and buy a new bike. ;)
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And my throttle is still out of wack. Twisting it from 0 to halfway does the whole speed range, and anything over halfway does nothing. Again, this might be something I can fix in the MBB settings, or maybe I just need to try another twist throttle.
I would start by checking the resistance range of the throttle potentiometer.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Whoa, looks like there's been some responses I didn't see until now. Time to reply to those!
Don:
See previous page. I already tested the throttle pot and took it apart. It's working better but could still likely be the issue.
ESokoloff & Richard:
I'm sure the battery is a little worn out, but it would mostly be due to age and infrequent use rather than being used and worn out. The bike had 1700kms on it, and over 10 years that means the previous owner put 170kms on it a year, which equals about 5 charge cycles a year. When I got the bike I put about 300 or 400 kms on it in the 1 month I was able to use it before it snowed. The only thing that really changed in that month is that my range increased! However the power felt the same the entire time and the speed still felt limited to around 80km/h the entire time.
There's a massive hill I must climb every morning, and it is less than 1km away from my house. On a full charge, I can't go faster than 80km/h up this hill. Heck, I can't go faster than 80 on the flat road leading up to that hill either. And after cresting that hill, I can pull a u-turn and go back down it and still only go 80 with the throttle wide open. This hill is pretty big, and I'm pretty sure that if I shut the bike off completely and just gave it a push that I would go in excess of 80 using only gravity. But it doesn't do this; it limits my speed to 80 while I'm going down a huge hill. That makes no sense to me! Surely that's a sign of something limiting my speed when I can't even free-wheel.
I'll start by replacing the Magura throttle, since this one was a little buggy when I first got it. If that doesn't fix it, then maybe it really is the battery pack. I know that replacements won't be available, but I would pull the pack out and rebuild it using the nissan leaf cells. I've seen some posts about that working out pretty well. I definitely won't get any help from Zero, as there are no dealers around here anyways, and when I email them directly for simple questions like "what's the torque spec for this?", I get no response.
I tolerated this low speed for that one month of using it, but I can't get to work without using a highway, so I need this bike to go faster. It should go faster.
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There's a massive hill I must climb every morning, and it is less than 1km away from my house. On a full charge, I can't go faster than 80km/h up this hill. Heck, I can't go faster than 80 on the flat road leading up to that hill either. And after cresting that hill, I can pull a u-turn and go back down it and still only go 80 with the throttle wide open.
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80kph is about 50mph so I’m wondering how much aerodynamic drag is at play here.
Suggest you try climbing that hill at various battery state of charge levels to rule out internal battery resistance.
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Hi Adam
The throttles on these early bikes are rubbish
I regularly change them
Try getting a quality Domino 0-5K
Hope that helps
I also have a 2010 Zero S and mine also seems to have a fast speedo and have not sorted this yet
Can I ask what lead you bought for the alltrax?
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Zap,
I agree that the Domino throttle is a good place to start, so I'll pick one up soon.
I bought this USB to Serial Port cable to connect to the controller and to a laptop. It worked, but I couldn't do much with the controller settings since the MBB overrides anything you do in the controller:
https://www.amazon.ca/UGREEN-Converter-Adapter-Prolific-Chipset/dp/B00QUZY4UG/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=USB%2Bto%2BSerial%2BAdapter&qid=1617076157&sr=8-5&th=1
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Thanks for that tip, I have ordered that lead from eBay it was £15.30 GBP
Do we understand the relationship between the MBB and the controller and how it does what it does ?
On the old X & MX models it has two switches which gave 4 modes
I am still trying to figure out what the extra small lead with the 2 wires in it on the zero X batteries
Once upon a time there was a plug in dongle for that that changed some perameters