ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: reini on September 29, 2020, 06:42:30 PM
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... to build electric snowmobiles and ORVs:
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/custom/polaris
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I received that email too. I am not too surprised considering how off-road and watercraft vehicles are being squeezed by environmental and noise regulations. This makes sense for Polaris and is really good news for Zero as it finally has them partnering with a huge multi-national company with deep pockets and a worldwide distribution and retail network. :)
It just occurred to me that Zero was smart not to partner with Harley Davidson. H-D has invested in and bought other motorcycle companies going back to the early 1960's and I can't recall a single time that worked out well for the companies that they partnered with - or H-D, for that matter. ::)
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It just occurred to me that Zero was smart not to partner with Harley Davidson. H-D has invested in and bought other motorcycle companies going back to the early 1960's and I can't recall a single time that worked out well for the companies that they partnered with - or H-D, for that matter. ::)
RIP Alta
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X2 regarding what HD did to Alta.
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RIP Buell.
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Just read this and screamed as if I'd seen the Frankenstein monster!!!!
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Well, sounds good for Zero. Their motors have been really popular, so much so that spare parts for a Zero stay annoyingly expensive ^-^;
Harley-Davidson grabbed Alta, Can-Am got Brammo, and Damon has Mission. All good motors, but none a functioning company. Polaris was falling behind.
-Crissa
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Well, sounds good for Zero. Their motors have been really popular, so much so that spare parts for a Zero stay annoyingly expensive ^-^;
Harley-Davidson grabbed Alta, Can-Am got Brammo, and Damon has Mission. All good motors, but none a functioning company. Polaris was falling behind.
-Crissa
No, POLARIS got Brammo. For awhile they sold the Empulse under the Victory name before they shuttered that brand altogether. On Facebook people were wondering WHY Polaris would partner with Zero when they already had all of Brammo's IP.
I found the answer in Cycle World's article covering this story. Polaris SOLD all of their Brammo holdings to Cummins a couple of years ago. THAT'S why we never saw an electric "Indian." Pretty damn short-sighted of them. Now they have to pay someone else for technology they once had free access to.
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Right, Can-Am bought Alta after HD.
Argh, so many dance partners.
Mergers lose engineers, though, so they're bad. Partnerships are better.
-Crissa
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If Polaris has Zero maybe Australia might get zero back and at a better price?
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If Polaris has Zero maybe Australia might get zero back and at a better price?
If I read that right, Polaris did NOT "get Zero." They entered into a partnership where Zero provides them with motors and battery technology which they will use to create electric snowmobiles and other off road recreational vehicles. That's good because I'd rather not see Zero swallowed up by a bigger company. That NEVER works out well for the little guy (Buell, Altus, Mission, Brammo etc).
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Well it's about time Zero got into 4 wheelers even if it's just helping to make them. I think there could be a big market for the quads and the side by sides in the rural market. Hunting and working around livestock is ideal for quiet smooth high torque electric power.
Now if someone would just make something that allows people to plug in power tools and use the battery packs for landscaping and construction and farm work that would be great. ;)
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Yeah, nothing better than not scaring animals except never needing to fetch gas from town.
-Crissa
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This is going to be... awkward?... for the Polaris dealership that lost its dealership agreement with Zero Motorcycles in Reno NV USA.
Are there any production EV snowmobiles in the market? I'm thinking of Tiaga have they shipped anything? Would Polaris be the first to market?
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Here is more spin regarding this new partnership by the two new partners. Polaris has more to say about their company than does Zero. Brammo even deserved a mention in Polaris's comments: https://electricmotorcycles.news/polaris-announces-partnership-with-zero-motorcycles/
My recollection is that there is at least one company manufacturing (or maybe developing a prototype) an electric snowmobile. I think I saw an article about that last winter. Also, didn't that company that sells a two-wheel EV that looks like a large Honda Ruckrus scooter, have a way to power electrical tools from their removable on-board batteries? There are a lot of good EV ideas floating around, the problem is bringing them to market in volume and getting the public to buy them. Perhaps Polaris is the one to do it. Let's keep our fingers crossed that they don't get cold feet again like they did with their Brammo adventure. Their corporate board does not seem like the adventurous type when it comes to investments that cost money. ::)
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For snowmobiles I'm wondering if they will have some active battery warming installed. Some protective insulation for when you get going but overnight charging outside could get sketchy. Li ion still doesn't like the cold.
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The eqooder, a Swiss product
https://www.qooder.com/en/eqooder (https://www.qooder.com/en/eqooder)
comes with Zero Z-Force® 75.7R and Z-Force® Li-Ion 7.2 kWH
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Well, sounds good for Zero. Their motors have been really popular, so much so that spare parts for a Zero stay annoyingly expensive ^-^;
Harley-Davidson grabbed Alta, Can-Am got Brammo, and Damon has Mission. All good motors, but none a functioning company. Polaris was falling behind.
-Crissa
Lots of good potential here, both for cleaner & quieter powercraft, as well as added revenue for Zero.
I just hope Polaris, being the 800-pound gorilla in the relationship (their revenue is $5B/year), don't end up distracting Zero from the main business of motorcycles.
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... don't end up distracting Zero from the main business of motorcycles.
Yeah, though partnerships like this is what catapulted Rivian from just another hopeful small company into the rather sure contender they are today. Even Tesla sold drivetrains (and still does?) to raise cash and make tooling up factories pay for itself.
-Crissa
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... don't end up distracting Zero from the main business of motorcycles.
Yeah, though partnerships like this is what catapulted Rivian from just another hopeful small company into the rather sure contender they are today. Even Tesla sold drivetrains (and still does?) to raise cash and make tooling up factories pay for itself.
-Crissa
Sure, it's a natural & reasonable path to take (IIRC, Tesla's deal with Daimler & Toyota was also tied to their investing in Tesla); Rimac also does this, and Energica announced a similar deal (https://www.energicamotor.com/12382-energica-dellorto-dedicated-power-units-evs-small-medium-sizes/) with Italian automotive supplier Dell'Orto a year ago, focused on small electric two-wheelers.
I just hope Polaris behaves. It didn't w.r.t. the Brammo acquisition.
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I wouldn't be surprised to hear that this news spurred Polaris to enter into their arrangement with Zero:
https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/dirt/california-gasoline-dirt-bikes-ban-2035/
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I don't understand how they could possibly do that, surely they have no say when it comes to non road legal vehicles? There are no regulations for them, if it's on private land and you have permission you can ride or drive absolutely anything you like.
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Zero needs to hold the line and not make any compromises in this "partnership". If they start ceding power or get bought then they're done for. It's up to Mr. Paschel and the board to be strong. They have made a 10 year commitment dealing with the devil. With such temptations, it's going to be really hard not to fold whenever times get difficult. Imagine if Microsoft had sold out to IBM in the early days.
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I can't see that happening, all Zero is doing is supplying them with components. It wouldn't surprise me if the resulting products are branded Polaris with just a "powered by Zero" or similar decal on them. Zero probably won't have much involvement beyond where to stick the components and what specific ones to choose for the application.
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Ten years is a very, very long time! Predictably, it goes something like this:
- Polaris becomes dependent on Zero parts and worries about it.
- Zero has financial difficulties. Polaris offers money.
- Zero accepts unfavorable terms.
- Zero dies.
It needs to go like this:
- Polaris becomes dependent on Zero parts and worries about it.
- Zero has financial difficulties. Polaris offers money.
- Zero says we'd rather die.
- Zero comes close to dying.
- Ten years later, Zero buys Polaris.
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How likely is something like that though? The most likely part is Polaris becoming reliant on Zero but the ban on ICE vehicles (if it will even apply to off road vehicles) is 15 years away, and this is assuming there's some sort of exclusivity deal and Polaris can't just go to a different manufacturer. As for Zero, surely they're only going to get stronger as more people embrace electric vehicles especially road legal ones.
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I don't understand how they could possibly do that, surely they have no say when it comes to non road legal vehicles? There are no regulations for them, if it's on private land and you have permission you can ride or drive absolutely anything you like.
I'm pretty sure that in California most of the offroad places people ride aren't private land, they're public, municipally-, state- or Federally-owned .
Over here, BTW, all traffic laws apply to private land as well (bikes must be registered & insured, riding licenses required etc.)
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I don't understand how they could possibly do that, surely they have no say when it comes to non road legal vehicles? There are no regulations for them, if it's on private land and you have permission you can ride or drive absolutely anything you like.
I'm pretty sure that in California most of the offroad places people ride aren't private land, they're public, municipally-, state- or Federally-owned .
Over here, BTW, all traffic laws apply to private land as well (bikes must be registered & insured, riding licenses required etc.)
Is that the thing where you have to get the sticker to go on your bike, think it's green or orange? I've seen a couple cop stop videos where people have had to show them when riding off road. Even then I don't see how they could regulate a vehicle that might only ever be ridden on your own land. Sure people may ride them on state owned land but not everyone will, so what they need to do instead is only hand out those stickers to electric bike owners.
Regarding the traffic laws, is that only if it's someone else's land? Surely they can't do anything if its your own land. What about motocross tracks, does every single rider really have their race bikes registered and insured? Are there any other requirements for them such as emissions or safety testing?
Other than being able to lane split Cali is starting to sound like a pretty bad place to live when it comes to motor vehicles.
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I don't understand how they could possibly do that, surely they have no say...
The state has a rather large say about what is sold in the state, tho. Not to mention what is emitted into the air, ridden on public lands.
It's only 'new' that Newsom was looking to prohibit in 2035, tho. Pretty pablum. Used vehicles wouldn't be touched. And trucks have until 2040.
-Crissa
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I don't understand how they could possibly do that, surely they have no say when it comes to non road legal vehicles? There are no regulations for them, if it's on private land and you have permission you can ride or drive absolutely anything you like.
I'm pretty sure that in California most of the offroad places people ride aren't private land, they're public, municipally-, state- or Federally-owned .
Over here, BTW, all traffic laws apply to private land as well (bikes must be registered & insured, riding licenses required etc.)
Is that the thing where you have to get the sticker to go on your bike, think it's green or orange? I've seen a couple cop stop videos where people have had to show them when riding off road. Even then I don't see how they could regulate a vehicle that might only ever be ridden on your own land. Sure people may ride them on state owned land but not everyone will, so what they need to do instead is only hand out those stickers to electric bike owners.
Regarding the traffic laws, is that only if it's someone else's land? Surely they can't do anything if its your own land. What about motocross tracks, does every single rider really have their race bikes registered and insured? Are there any other requirements for them such as emissions or safety testing?
Other than being able to lane split Cali is starting to sound like a pretty bad place to live when it comes to motor vehicles.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm not in California, I'm in Israel :)
Over here all the laws that apply on public lands apply on private land, no matter whose, no exceptions whatsoever (to people to whom that sounds weird, does it seem weird that it also applies to non-traffic laws forbidding, say suicide or drug use? AFAIK, in most if not all jurisdictions they also apply on private property just as much as they do on public land).
Re motorcross here, or any form of racing, that requires separate specialty licensure, insurance & safety testing (I think there's a waiver for emissions), and anyone caught doing any kind of racing without them will have the bike confiscated and hefty fines at least.
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I don't understand how they could possibly do that, surely they have no say...
The state has a rather large say about what is sold in the state, tho. Not to mention what is emitted into the air, ridden on public lands.
It's only 'new' that Newsom was looking to prohibit in 2035, tho. Pretty pablum. Used vehicles wouldn't be touched. And trucks have until 2040.
-Crissa
I mean, technically it's up to them. I suppose if they really wanted they could ban whatever they want (assuming all the right people are on board with it). I'm talking more about the justification behind it. If someone really wanted they could burn a barrel of oil on their own land, or drive a monster truck with an 8 litre engine that has consumption measured in gallons per mile, so riding around on a 2 stroke dirt bike should be allowed too (well, it will be but people should also have the right to buy new vehicles to do so).
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I don't understand how they could possibly do that, surely they have no say...
The state has a rather large say about what is sold in the state, tho. Not to mention what is emitted into the air, ridden on public lands.
It's only 'new' that Newsom was looking to prohibit in 2035, tho. Pretty pablum. Used vehicles wouldn't be touched. And trucks have until 2040.
-Crissa
I mean, technically it's up to them. I suppose if they really wanted they could ban whatever they want (assuming all the right people are on board with it). I'm talking more about the justification behind it. If someone really wanted they could burn a barrel of oil on their own land, or drive a monster truck with an 8 litre engine that has consumption measured in gallons per mile, so riding around on a 2 stroke dirt bike should be allowed too (well, it will be but people should also have the right to buy new vehicles to do so).
Sure, let's stick to the justification aspect.
Why should it be allowed to drive an overly polluting truck on a person's private land? The emissions aren't going to stay on their property, they'll pollute the air overall for everyone.
Similarly, there are (throughout the developed world, AFAIK) very strict laws regulating gasoline/petrol stations and mandating regular inspections so their underground fuel tanks don't pollute the ground -- this applies to private property as well, for the same reason: Runoff would damage groundwater generally.
At least in places where water is a scarce resource (true here in the Mideast :)), the same applies: One can't dig a well here on private land without a license, which limits how deep it can go, and how much and when can be pumped. All water in the country is considered a national resource, owned by the state.
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Sure, let's stick to the justification aspect.
Why should it be allowed to drive an overly polluting truck on a person's private land? The emissions aren't going to stay on their property, they'll pollute the air overall for everyone.
Freedom (no I'm not American). Morally, ethically, I don't think it's a good thing to do but I think that people should have that choice. There are many things for which the same argument could be made, like if someone should be able to use a power hungry computer, or use incandescent bulbs, or use a projector instead of a television, or use a gas cooker instead of electric.
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If they keep all their emissions inside a little bubble, then they can do whatever they want.
The moment they want to do anything that emits gasses, creates solid waste, runoff, or has the potential to do any of those things if there were say an earthquake, well, no, then their ability to do things impacts the rest of us.
Your freedom to punch me ends where it might actually hit me, they say, but it's a bit more restrictive than that. You have to share this world with other people and the environment you depend upon.
-Crissa
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I think this new relationship boils down to one of two possibilities, which explain all the FUD.
Either Zero is already doing well and expanding customers to make more money, or they're in financial trouble and needed this to stay alive. All theories presented in this thread stem from one of those.
Something made Zero do this NOW. What it is, we do not know. The question to ask is, why 10 years? Who most benefits from mandating it be that long?
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I think this new relationship boils down to one of two possibilities, which explain all the FUD.
Either Zero is already doing well and expanding customers to make more money, or they're in financial trouble and needed this to stay alive. All theories presented in this thread stem from one of those.
Something made Zero do this NOW. What it is, we do not know. The question to ask is, why 10 years? Who most benefits from mandating it be that long?
What FUD? You're misusing the term badly.
As for the deal, there's no reason to read too much into it.
No e-motorcycle maker is making any money (aside from the Chinese ones making 50cc-equivalent e-mopeds & e-scooters).
Sales volume are tiny -- Zero is the largest, and makes in the low 1000s bikes/year. That's not much, and growth is likewise low, because e-motorcycles aren't currently usable for anything except commuting in a way similar to ICE bikes, because of range and cost.
So Zero is simply taking advantage of the opportunity to codevelop & sell drivetrains into an additional market. The "NOW" aspect may be due to Polaris, not necessarily Zero -- we have no idea how long they've been discussing/negoatiating about it.
Energica is doing the same with the Dell'Orto deal.
And as for the 10 years, again, we don't know that it's mandated -- both companies may have exit clauses -- but it seems a reasonable timeframe to develop appropriate drivetrains, and then and then build and sell enough of them to make it profitable. Too short a timeframe would make it much riskier, and much longer doesn't make sense in the automotive sector -- even the largest carmakers don't have detailed projects that are that long, AFAIK. Let alone in the BEV sector.
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I'm using FUD exactly right. People are wondering what and why, and coming up with theories.
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I'm using FUD exactly right. People are wondering what and why, and coming up with theories.
FUD == "Fear, uncertainty and doubt". It specifically refers to statement(s) made with malicious intent to confuse/mislead/strike fear in a rival or enemy, or in the wider public, to indirectly damage that enemy.
Are you accusing Polaris and/or Zero of making a deal in order to sow FUD? If so, who is the enemy?
Or do you think some of the posters here have malicious intent in the way they've been discussing it? Which posters? Why? What would they gain?
People wondering and having a discussion has nothing to do with malicious purposes, and if there's no malice, the term FUD doesn't apply.
That's all that's happened here, none of the posters (AFAIK) works at the companies in question or has any hidden motivations .
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I think it's just an old fashioned good team setup.
Polaris has major manufacturing ability and can builds "units" much much cheaper than Zero.
They have a huge R&D department to handle the framing and build up of the different vehicels and a much bigger dealer network and brand presence.
Really the only parts of Zero that are Zero are the motor design the MBB all the operating code and the use of their BMS and Farasis cell arrangement into their 116V battery. Their bike frame won't be used of course but all that is really Zero will be in these new vehicles.
Everything else on our bikes is third party equipment, not unlike other manufacturers.
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This must also mean Polaris has bought into the low voltage design and won't support DCFC.
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Nowhere to charge with CCS on a farm or the woods or in snow. :)
I assume these will all be off road vehicles.
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Zero has said in the past they weren't interested in partnerships because they did not have the volume of motors or battery packs - whatever was being asked. That may have changed.
They've always needed money.
Also, there are totally DC DDC chargers in the fields: https://www.evseadapters.com/products/portable-chademo-ccs-combo-dc-quick-charger/
And portable AC chargers:
https://blinkcharging.com/products/mobile-charger/
They're just expensive. But they do exist now. Those SparkCharge seems to have lost their website? Weird.
-Crissa
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If you look at the first link there is a J1772 plug at the bottom powering the thing.
Basically an external onboard charger.
I'll stick to my statement, no CCS in the field.
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A combo socket includes a j-plug in it, yes. But it's still DC charging.
-Crissa
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No, that big box in the link is just like a Delta Q charger for a Zero. Both of them spit out DC power (Anderson plug on the Delata Q and CCS or Chademo on this thing) to the battery but both take in AC power.
The bottom left of the picture shows a J1772 plug powering the box and then the box is going into the Leafs Chademo or CCS inlet.
It's just an external AC charger feeding into the DC plug.
Good for if your onboard charger died in your Leaf. Or it may go faster than the standard Leaf onboard charger.
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Yes, it supports AC charging as well as DC.
https://inverter.en.alibaba.com/product/60406497994-801471302/10KW_level_3_DC_fast_portable_EVSE_equipment_EV_battery_charger.html
I was trying to also find this one:
https://evunited.com/collections/ultrafast-portable-ev-charging
-Crissa
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The second link is just a bunch of batteries with a chademo cord/gun coming off of it.
Now it's a product that would be real good for tow truck situations where someone's EV dies on the side of the road and they could pull up and charge them and get them on their way but hauling around a bunch of spare batteries (at a very high cost by the way) isn't a CCS charging solution on a farm.
This will be a good product for the intended uses and will likely do a whole days work without needing to charge so just plug in overnight, but having CCS charging is not a priority for a farm use vehicle.
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.... but having CCS charging is not a priority for a farm use vehicle.
You said there were no CCS chargers in fields. Well, here's one.
-Crissa
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Grrrrr
There's no AC source either.
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Dude, I linked to battery powered portable CCS chargers 'cause you said they didn't exist. They do. They're new, so there's no shame in not knowing.
There are AC J-plug ones. The previous one I linked to is supposed to do both, but I seem to have lost the link to the data sheet.
What is wrong? They're clearly too expensive for farming today, but the future is getting here. As we have the tools coming in, we just need to price the carbon to match the emissions, and then it'll work out.
-Crissa
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Dude, I linked to battery powered portable CCS chargers 'cause you said they didn't exist. They do. They're new, so there's no shame in not knowing.
There are AC J-plug ones. The previous one I linked to is supposed to do both, but I seem to have lost the link to the data sheet.
What is wrong? They're clearly too expensive for farming today, but the future is getting here. As we have the tools coming in, we just need to price the carbon to match the emissions, and then it'll work out.
-Crissa
But isn't it more efficient, lighter, and better in every way possible, to have a battery that is easy to replace and simply keep a spare charged up battery around?
-Don- Reno
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Dude, I linked to battery powered portable CCS chargers 'cause you said they didn't exist. They do. They're new, so there's no shame in not knowing.
There are AC J-plug ones. The previous one I linked to is supposed to do both, but I seem to have lost the link to the data sheet.
What is wrong? They're clearly too expensive for farming today, but the future is getting here. As we have the tools coming in, we just need to price the carbon to match the emissions, and then it'll work out.
-Crissa
But isn't it more efficient, lighter, and better in every way possible, to have a battery that is easy to replace and simply keep a spare charged up battery around?
-Don- Reno
And on a farm you could use a windmill to recharge the battery, in addition to pumping water out of the ground. ;)
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Dude, I linked to battery powered portable CCS chargers 'cause you said they didn't exist. They do. They're new, so there's no shame in not knowing.
There are AC J-plug ones. The previous one I linked to is supposed to do both, but I seem to have lost the link to the data sheet.
What is wrong? They're clearly too expensive for farming today, but the future is getting here. As we have the tools coming in, we just need to price the carbon to match the emissions, and then it'll work out.
-Crissa
But isn't it more efficient, lighter, and better in every way possible, to have a battery that is easy to replace and simply keep a spare charged up battery around?
-Don- Reno
That depends on the size of the battery (and much of farm machinery will need BEV-sized battery, in order to do a full's day of work without needing replacement/recharging), and overall battery production -- which is currently highly constrained. Battery replacement needs some seriously expensive facilities once you get to 20kWh+ batteries, which don't make economic sense for a single or even several farms; doubling the number of batteries needed overall isn't going to make sense either, in terms of battery demand, for quite a few years yet. Battery demand is likely going to outstrip supply for at least the coming decade, both due to increased EVs adoption as well as due to stationary storage batteries.
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Dude, I linked to battery powered portable CCS chargers 'cause you said they didn't exist. They do. They're new, so there's no shame in not knowing.
There are AC J-plug ones. The previous one I linked to is supposed to do both, but I seem to have lost the link to the data sheet.
What is wrong? They're clearly too expensive for farming today, but the future is getting here. As we have the tools coming in, we just need to price the carbon to match the emissions, and then it'll work out.
-Crissa
Ok so Curt mentioned that with Polaris partnering up with Zero that meant they had no interest in CCS.
I pointed out that these will be off road vehicles so worrying about fast charging at a CCS station like most people want to do on the road legal Zeros won't come into play yet.
To sum that up I said there are no CCS stations in the field. I even added a smiley face to point it out without going into full detail.
Some people think that Zero having no CCS is just a horrible thing and so stupid and inexcusable that they don't want to hear anything other than CCS is here.
I'm not saying that is Curt's feelings but it comes up a good bit on here.
You have pointed out that you can remotely charge an EV. It can be done through a DC plug in port.
But can you concede that it's not like a Charge Point CCS station that you plug into with road legal vehicles which was what I was pointing out? As that is what Curt sounds like he does want and sooner rather than later.
also the Grrr was a stop being cheeky not an angry GRRRRRRRR.
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I think CCS is the future, and will be cheaper. Structural batteries like in the F-platform are cheaper, and skipping the charger saves weight, bulk, and eventually, cost.
Today the DC high power chargers are more expensive, so yeah, as the installed base is now, it makes sense to go with AC on board, L1 basic outlet, compatible chargers.
But they really need to look at the future and be ready for it. They need to have a prestige product to get people dreaming of a different tomorrow.
-Crissa
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Just to whiz on everyone's chips but I don't think electricity is the future for farm vehicles. The sheer scale of daily energy requirements for large farm vehicles and equipment is beyond understanding. Farming is likely to move to biofuels, keeping it as a carbon-neutral closed loop. You heard it here first. (I "saw it here first", too, as our local farm is a big pioneer of biofuel technology)
Cas :)
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Just to whiz on everyone's chips but I don't think electricity is the future for farm vehicles. The sheer scale of daily energy requirements for large farm vehicles and equipment is beyond understanding. Farming is likely to move to biofuels, keeping it as a carbon-neutral closed loop. You heard it here first. (I "saw it here first", too, as our local farm is a big pioneer of biofuel technology)
Cas :)
We're getting far afield (pun intended) from Zero/Polaris. but frankly, there's very little actual e-motorcycle news...
From what I read, there currently aren't any biofuels that are worth growing for the sake of fuel, in terms of overall environmental & processing cost. Brazil's ethanol is a borderline exception. Elsewhere, basically any land used to grow large-scale fuel crops is going to compete with land needed for food crops.
So that leaves biofuel resulting from industrial or agricultural processes (e.g., reusing cooking oil, or biogas), but my understanding is that fairly little of that can be used cost-effectively.
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Well I'm talking about farm use because these vehicles will be ORVs Off Road Vehicles. I'm guessing that will be 4 wheelers, the utility side by sides which sell like crazy for as much as they cost, and snowmobiles.
I guess they could make a pure dirt bike but that would overlap a bit with the FX (maybe other new models) so I think they will stick to new types of electric ORVs not offered by either company.
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My local city set up a bio-fuel distribution facility at our sewage treatment plant a few years ago and apparently no one wanted the stuff, or they just couldn't supply enough fast food grease to keep it up and running. It didn't last long. Bio-fuels seem like a good idea but the mechanics, distribution and economics of the concept seem to leave something to be desired when being used on a large commercial scale. ???
However, I can see how locally-produced bio-fuels could be useful on a farm or ranch to supplement their required diesel fuel needs, but I still think that there is, or will be, a demand for electric vehicles to get you around the farm instead of using the typical ICE pickup truck.
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Yeah, electric is the future of farms because they can use solar. Put it about 2m up and it doesn't conflict with grazing. Put it over irrigation and reduce evaporation.
-Crissa
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I do believe our local farm - Frogmary Green Farm, South Petherton - was the first in the UK to go 100% off-grid for the farm itself. They use a biomass gas converter to run heating and generator, and there's a large PV solar array too. I think it's probably the only sustainable future for farming. They'll definitely be running ATVs off of electricity because it'll be likely illegal to sell ICE ones in 15 years (which, tenuously, keeps us almost vaguely on-topic because Polaris AIUI are big producers of ATVs, at least, elsewhere in the world) but I'm not so sure they'll ever manage to run combines or threshers off of battery power, as they use about 1.2 litres of diesel per km (I think that's about... 2mpg?) - can you imagine the size of the batteries required and the charging infrastructure needed to fill them up?
Cas :)
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40kwh per gallon of diesel, but how efficient is the translation into work? How many miles does it need to travel? Can you produce enough biodiesel to fuel it in any case?
This is why pricing it at the carbon level is more efficient. Then the true cost of the gallons of diesel can be shown... And they can come up with solutions (like PV arrays charging drone-batteries which trundle out to the working combine-train to power it)
-Crissa
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I think the best bit is that they could in theory reserve a particular % of land for biodiesel crops and run the whole operation from it. Interesting to watch the farm develop over the last decade.
Cas :)
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Okay, so this thread has ventured very far from the subject in the title. Unless it gets back on the subject, I'm going to lock it.