ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: DonTom on September 14, 2020, 03:17:58 AM
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IMO, the perfect Energica would need a couple of more things, and would force me to buy another.
I would want the 2022 SS9+ (or Ribelle) to charge faster on both, DC as well as AC. If it's more WH capacity, why can't it accept a faster CCS charge than my SS9- ?
I would want it to have a 6KW AC charger. CCS is not available in many locations. 3 KW is fine for home use, but sometimes we only can find J-1772 on the road and no CCS. 6KW is fast enough to make it useful even while on the road.
The other thing I would want (even at the cost of a little extra weight) is a center stand that makes it easy to remove either wheel. Such would also help with chain maintenance and countess other things.
Anyway, those are the main things I would want.
Not that I expect it to happen this year, as I assume the pandemic has slowed down hopes for any new models soon.
What would others want to see on the next years models?
It's fine with me if they jack up the price a couple of thousand bucks just so I get exactly what I want.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I'd want 12KW AC charging, a 30KWh battery, and a 20kg weight reduction, for the no more than the price of a fully-loaded 1250GS. First manufacturer manages this particular combination gets all of my money.
Cas :)
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I'd want 12KW AC charging, a 30KWh battery, and a 20kg weight reduction, for the no more than the price of a fully-loaded 1250GS. First manufacturer manages this particular combination gets all of my money.
Cas :)
I don't care much about the weight, I am used to my 1,000 lb Harley and it has no reverse (but I wish it did)! 12 KW charging won't do much good here in the USA as most J1772 stations are only good to 7 or so KWs. A few can only do 5.5 KW. I don't know why, as my Tesla Wall Connector can do the full 12 KW so I would think all 240 VAC charging stations would be around there in max capacity.
But with a 50 amp TeslaTap and a 12 KW Tesla Destination charge stn should get the 12 KW even here in the USA, but they are not nearly as common as J-1772 in most areas, and many Tesla Destination charge stations are private at motels and such and often are only for guests.
12 KW is probably asking for too much for an Energica. Zero can do such because of the tank, but they don't have the CCS charge.
A 30KW battery with a weight reduction and 12 KW AC charging is asking for too much, IMO. I would think that would take too much room, so where would they put such?
I realize they can use four 3 KW chargers, but still where will they find the room? And more battery as well?
I think you will have to wait a few more years for what you want. I think what I want can be done by their next new model.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I am indeed resigned to waiting. I'd still go for a current model if the price dropped about a third though.
Cas :)
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How about one with longer shocks and ss9+ scrambler style, nubby tires to glide over rough mountain roads?
-Crissa
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How about one with longer shocks and ss9+ scrambler style, nubby tires to glide over rough mountain roads?
-Crissa
Get a Zero DS for that!
-Don- Reno, NV
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How about one with longer shocks and ss9+ scrambler style, nubby tires to glide over rough mountain roads?
Get a Zero DS for that!
A Zero DS is:
A) not an Energica
B) not a scrambler
...among other things.
-Crissa
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Charger power capacity is proportional to physical size unless ground-breaking efficiencies are made, no?
So then, were you gonna put it?
Unless the tail section becomes allot more porky I don't see this happening unless one is thinking a standalone unit.
Maybe I'm missing something....sorry, I don't mean to poo-poo the idea :-\ .
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A Zero DS is:
A) not an Energica
B) not a scrambler
...among other things.
-Crissa
Then go for the FX if you want to go more dirty. I cannot see Energica getting into dirt bikes.
I find my DS does well enough for me, on both dirt and pavement, especially with my two new Dunlop tires I just put on.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Charger power capacity is proportional to physical size unless ground-breaking efficiencies are made, no?
Is the SS9- and SS9+ battery the same physical size? But I think I see what you're getting at. IOW, if the battery is not larger in physical size it will have more heat to dissipate in the same amount of space, regardless of the battery KWHs if it charges at more current. But that would be for DC fast charging. The 6KW charging should be no issue at all.
So then, were you gonna put it?
I am sure the engineers at Energica can figure it out. And I hear the Zero SR/S Premium uses two 3 KW chargers to get their 6 KW. So only the space for one more is needed.
The tail section is fine with me, I want to use it, not look at it!
-Don- Reno, NV
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Then go for the FX if ...
Do you even know what a scrambler is?
An SS9 could make a pretty good one with some changed out parts.
-Crissa
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Then go for the FX if ...
Do you even know what a scrambler is?
An SS9 could make a pretty good one with some changed out parts.
-Crissa
Well, I once owned a 1967 Honda CL350 Scrambler, which then meant somewhat of a dual sport. Does it have a different meaning these days?
-Don-
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I think so, somehow people now think that 260kg and £20,000 makes a good off-road bike if it's got crap knobblies on it! (See: 1250GS, Triumph, etc). The only manufacturer that really "gets" off-road is KTM, though Yamaha have taken a brave stab at it with the Tenere, unfortunately coming in 50kg too heavy for proper use. KTM's 790 is also too heavy but it's considerably more road-biased than their proper single-cyl bikes.
Back on topic: the SR/F Premium is offered with a 12KW charging option, presumably by filling up the tank space with another pair of 3KW chargers to add to the two already squeezed in on board somewhere. Given Zero's track record on OBC reliability it just sounds to me like having 4x the probability of breaking though.
Cas :)
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The Charge Tanks have never been installed like the on board charger, so why would they have the same reliability issues? They're also completely different units.
And a scrambler isn't about being a jacked-up or lightweight bike. It's just about being competent with a poor road. Not hopping rocks off road.
-Crissa
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IME all bikes are roughly equally competent at light off-road duty, with ability directly inversely proportional to weight, and with good sense similarly inversely proportional to price.
I don't know how the extra charging capacity is installed on the Premium, only that they are apparently an option (and a pretty good option at that, as 11KW charging is all over the place here in the UK, and it means a full charge in just over an hour which is almost acceptable)
Cas :)
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My spouse's scrambler is plenty more competent on a rough road than my S despite weighing more.
-Crissa
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The first time I saw the term "Scrambler" was in a 1959 Sears Roebuck catalog. Photo attached.
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The first time I saw the term "Scrambler" was in a 1959 Sears Roebuck catalog. Photo attached.
One thing I think they have in common is a muffler that is up high. But what is the difference between a dual sport and a scrambler?
Here it says my Moto Guzzi Stelvio (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moto_Guzzi_Stelvio) is a "dual sport". I cannot find anywhere where on the web where a "scrambler" is defined, but many models use "scrambler" in their model name., such as my old 1967 Honda CL350 Scrambler (https://iconicmotorbikeauctions.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Honda-CL350-Scrambler-Right-Side-Featured.jpg).
See here (https://silodrome.com/brief-guide-honda-scramblers/) for the Honda "Scramblers".
And see here (https://lemonbin.com/types-of-motorcycles/) and here. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_motorcycles)
-Don- Reno, NV
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Back on topic: the SR/F Premium is offered with a 12KW charging option, presumably by filling up the tank space with another pair of 3KW chargers to add to the two already squeezed in on board somewhere. Given Zero's track record on OBC reliability it just sounds to me like having 4x the probability of breaking though.
Cas :)
I don't know if Zero is "on topic" in an Energica thread. ??? Not that I care.
Do those four 3KW chargers used in the SR/S & SR/F have fans to help keep them cool? The Energica uses a fan in its 3 KW charger, which was the very first thing to crap out in my Energica.
-Don- Reno, NV
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My perfect Energica would be like mine except 200 lbs lighter. Some major advances in battery tech will get us there, but that's at least a decade out.
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My perfect Energica would be like mine except 200 lbs lighter. Some major advances in battery tech will get us there, but that's at least a decade out.
Why do you find the weight of the Energica to be an issue?
I feel quite the opposite. They could make it even heavier as long as I get the features I want.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Heavy means worse handling, Don. And more skill needed.
-Crissa
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Heavy means worse handling, Don. And more skill needed.-Crissa
Mine handles fine as is. But I kinda ride like a little old lady anyway. I mainly ride to go places-- to get from one place to the other. I ain't an Adrenalin junky.
That's why I ain't into sport bikes. I am a touring rider, so handling isn't all that important to me.
I also enjoy riding my 1,000 lb Harley as much as any other bike. And that is the most comfy bike I own for a long trip.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Heavy means worse handling, Don. And more skill needed.
-Crissa
I know a guy who can race up to VA City (many shape curves) on his 1,000 LB Harley with his wife on the rear. I cannot keep up with him solo on any bike I own. That's what I would call skill. A skill I don't have and don't even care to have. Not even after my 55 years of riding motorcycles.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Why do you find the weight of the Energica to be an issue?
I feel quite the opposite. They could make it even heavier as long as I get the features I want.
-Don- Reno, NV
It's simply a matter of handling in tight corners in the mountains. Getting my bike to to lean quickly isn't so easy.
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It's simply a matter of handling in tight corners in the mountains. Getting my bike to to lean quickly isn't so easy.
How often is that an issue at the speed limit and / or at the recommended speeds for the curves?
-Don- Reno, NV
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It's simply a matter of handling in tight corners in the mountains. Getting my bike to to lean quickly isn't so easy.
How often is that an issue at the speed limit and / or at the recommended speeds for the curves?
That's why it takes more skill, Don.
-Crissa
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That's why it takes more skill, Don.
-Crissa
I can usually even ride my Harley at the speed limit (black on white or white on black signs there in CA) or at least the suggested curve speeds (yellow background) anywhere, so I just don't see much of an issue unless I have a speed junky tailgating me.
Perhaps the main reason electric bikes are my favorite to ride is because they ride slow very well. No need to keep up the RPMs even on the hills. And downhill in curves is much like being in 6th and first gear at the same time on an ICE bike (at least on the Energica with max regen). The Zero max regen doesn't compare to the Energica's regen.
But I wish Energica would add regen with the brake as Zero does. That's another thing I would like on my "perfect Energica", but that won't be enough to make or brake (pun intended) the deal. I would also prefer such on my Tesla. Then I would probably use a lower deceleration regen setting. But on the Energica and Tesla, they would not be able to use the brake light voltage for that. The Energica is like the Tesla, the brake light comes on even when the brakes are not touched, which is a must for any vehicle that has a lot of deceleration regen. So it means they must add another switch and perhaps that is why it isn't done on such vehicles.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Oh, yeah. Like a thumb dial and/or left-hand analog regen control.
Dial it right to the hill. Some EV cars do that with their cruise control. My mom's does it by controlling the automatic transmission and braking. (Less good, but kinda cool.)
-Crissa
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Oh, yeah. Like a thumb dial and/or left-hand analog regen control.
Dial it right to the hill. Some EV cars do that with their cruise control.
My Tesla M3 does for the cruse control. But IIRC, it's on the right, and the left is the audio volume. But not sure, it's been months since I moved my Tesla out of the garage and I really don't remember. Another thing I like about EVs is that you can use the cruise control on the steepest hills with no issues. In an ICE vehicle it's a good way to ruin an auto tranny, especially if one doesn't know to turn off the OD.
The Tesla, IIRC, has three selections for the regen. I just leave it ( and everything else) at the default which is the highest regen.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I have a progressive throttle for regen on my Livewire. It does a great job on hills. I like it a lot better than my SR/F regen. Witch I have set to 100% with the brake light.
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I have a progressive throttle for regen on my Livewire. It does a great job on hills. I like it a lot better than my SR/F regen. Witch I have set to 100% with the brake light.
I have done a test ride on the LW, but didn't play with all the possible features, so I have no idea what a "progressive throttle for regen" even is. Can you give some details, please?
Does it mean you have progressively more regen at slower speeds, as does my Tesla?
-Don- Reno, NV
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The more you roll off the throttle, the more regen you get.
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The more you roll off the throttle, the more regen you get.
Isn't that true with any E-motorcycle?
-Don- Reno, NV
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No, it does some sort of ballistic curve. The faster and harder you roll off, the more it gives, I think.
Livewire is full of cool UI tweaks. Zeros are simple and overly straightforward in comparison.
-Crissa
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No, it does some sort of ballistic curve. The faster and harder you roll off, the more it gives, I think.
Livewire is full of cool UI tweaks. Zeros are simple and overly straightforward in comparison.
-Crissa
The LW regen is not going to be more than an Energica when set on max regen. That would be dangerous, IMO.
Yeah, Zeros have VERY weak regen when set to as high as possible when compared to either my Energica (on max regen) or even my Tesla. When you let go on those, it's like jamming on the rear brake!
That's why the brake light comes on with Regen with the Energica, Telsa (and I assume the LW!). But not the Zeros. The Zeros don't slow down much even at max regen when compared to the others.
However, the Energica coasts MUCH better than a Zero when regen is turned off on both.
-Don- Reno, NV
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What happened to the perfect Energica topic?
Display upgrade: Gorilla-glass face and sleeker housing, same display GUI but make it 2000NITs adjustable and partner w/ Garmin to enhance navigation and make it 100% backward compatible to prior year bikes because it's easy and represents up-grade revenue.
Battery improvements: End-user removable / swappable packs - standardized electrical specs, same hard points for mounting - RMA exchange program using shipping crates not factory personnel service visits - dealers will never qualify unless they become exclusive Energica stores and this will never happen unless Dellorto bikes take off which could be the EV future e.g. smaller/lighter - city commuters.
Oh, almost forgot...detachable center stand used for service only.
Ok, done...sorry for the tangent.
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What happened to the perfect Energica topic?
It's also still here!
Display upgrade: Gorilla-glass face and sleeker housing, same display GUI but make it 2000NITs adjustable and partner w/ Garmin to enhance navigation and make it 100% backward compatible to prior year bikes because it's easy and represents up-grade revenue.
I would like another digit in the display. IMO, it's ridiculous to only show 1, 2 or 3 KWs when you're charging. Why not at least a 1.5 and 2.5 KW? And I would like to see the same in much larger letters for the power being used (and gained in Regen). Lots of info on the screen, but often too small to read while riding and no decimal.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Oh, almost forgot...detachable center stand used for service only.
No thanks! You could need it when not expected, far from home. I want it to NOT be easily removable so it will always be with the bike.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The LW regen is not going to be more than an Energica when set on max regen. That would be dangerous, IMO.
I don't see what this has to do with the user interface of the controls, though.
-Crissa
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I don't see what this has to do with the user interface of the controls, though.
-Crissa
I must be missing something. What is the big advantage with the LW Regen over the Energica?
-Don- Reno, NV
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I don't see what this has to do with the user interface of the controls, though.
I must be missing something. What is the big advantage with the LW Regen over the Energica?
They control it differently. Supposedly if you roll off the throttle faster, it hits harder than if you roll slower. So when you change the throttle slowly, you have fine control, when you go fast you get coarse control.
Like a computer mouse's ballistics: If you move the mouse slowly it goes less far for the same gesture than if you move the mouse quickly.
-Crissa
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Hm, mouse accel is the first thing I turn off when I install Windows...
More perfect Energica musings:
1. Instrument cluster & UI that doesn't look like some kids toy from the 80s. Like, get rid of all the lights, they're literally embarrassing. Zero dash is perfect. But a BMW dash is the best in the business and nobody else is even in the same galaxy. Just aesthetics really but c'mon, I'm a grown up, I covet Teslas not Transformers.
2. Side mounted charging. Why the hell do we all suppose it's not going to be raining when I plug the thing in? The whole idea of putting 20KW into something that's got a watering can pouring on it gives me the willies. Please put charging ports on the sides of EVs with a pop over rain cover.
3. Belt drive. But not the awful one on the Zeros, I want the one that BMW use. The silence of a Zero as it zips along is just amazing.
4. Really not a fan of frame-side-mount single shocks. Centrally mounted monoshocks look far better. I suppose that's a packaging problem they'll need to solve somehow, but really that's just aesthetics again.
Cas :)
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They control it differently. Supposedly if you roll off the throttle faster, it hits harder than if you roll slower. So when you change the throttle slowly, you have fine control, when you go fast you get coarse control.
Like a computer mouse's ballistics: If you move the mouse slowly it goes less far for the same gesture than if you move the mouse quickly.
-Crissa
OIC. I think I would like that also, but not something that is really necessary IMO. I assume it can be switched off and on. If that's the case, I wonder what percentage of the riders turn it off. But choices are always nice to have.
-Don- Reno, NV
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1. Instrument cluster & UI that doesn't look like some kids toy from the 80s. Like, get rid of all the lights, they're literally embarrassing. Zero dash is perfect. But a BMW dash is the best in the business and nobody else is even in the same galaxy. Just aesthetics really but c'mon, I'm a grown up, I covet Teslas not Transformers.
What lights are you referring to? The "heartbeat" can be changed or turned off in my 2020 SS9.
3. Belt drive. But not the awful one on the Zeros, I want the one that BMW use. The silence of a Zero as it zips along is just amazing.
How about the big fat belt that my Harley uses? Designed to last 70,000 miles on my 1,000 lbs Harley. Chains are much less likely to snap than a belt. But I do like the belt on my Zeros as they are nice and quiet.
4. Really not a fan of frame-side-mount single shocks. Centrally mounted monoshocks look far better. I suppose that's a packaging problem they'll need to solve somehow, but really that's just aesthetics again.
That type of stuff I couldn't care less about.
BTW, this is what I expected to happen when I started this thread. We would all want and not want different things.
Perhaps the only perfect bike is the one we can each design for ourselves.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The whole instrument cluster with all its daft overstyled shape and idiot lights bothers me, not to mention the badly-designed-computer-game-UI of the actual TFT itself. Basically, "Copy BMW" and that's all you need to do :)
Harley belt assumedly fine, but I've never had a Harley so I don't know. And honestly the shock is just nitpicking for the sake of it, it was the first thing I saw on the Energicas that I thought looked a bit naff, like the side of an ER-6f.
Cas :)
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The whole instrument cluster with all its daft overstyled shape and idiot lights bothers me, not to mention the badly-designed-computer-game-UI of the actual TFT itself. Basically, "Copy BMW" and that's all you need to do :)
Lots of info on my 2020 SS9 screen. I can't say it bothers me, but sometimes excessive is as bad as insufficient. So much info., somethings such as an error symbol may go unnoticed. And example could be the small error symbol I had for my fan crapping out. I didn't even notice it with all the other stuff on the screen. The only reason I knew I had an error is because I checked diagnostics because of an unrelated issue and then saw the error for the open charger fan circuit.
-Don- Reno, NV
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This is a great thread!
This SS9+ rider wishes for
1. A larger dash with antireflective coating. All I can see is a reflection of my bright yellow jacket in some lighting. Check out the Tiger 900 dash. It isn't perfect and can seem over the top at first but you get used to it really quickly. Shorter time eyes off the road to gather info, more time with eyes on the road.
2. Easier on the fly coasting regen adjustment. Really handy when riding in steep mountains. S and SR Zeros offer that.
3. Min 6 kw or preferably 12 kw L2 would be great here in the US, and easier on the battery than L3. The better Tesla destination chargers offer 12kw and more, just add an appropriately rated Tesla Tap or Lectron and voila, 2 miles of range per minute of charging at good speed, and even more at tourist speed.
4. (My #1 wish): A local dealer. So more dealers.
5. More luggage options, specifically a tail rack that is Givi Monokey compatible (like Zero has had forever)
6. Yes it's too darned heavy for what it is.
7. Yes the cruise button is not well located. Usually a left hand activation for me.
Edit on 9/19: nit picking aside, this owner congratulates Energica for a very, very well executed design. I really really like this moto. If anyone is reading this thread looking for reasons not to buy an Energica, you won't find it here. This is from a former owner of a Zero S and SR/F, and current and former owner of a bunch of ICE motos. Despite the small size, the US distribution system has been simply great to work with.
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I agree with #5. I too would love to have a factory, GIVI compatible tail rack for at least the EsseEsse9 and ideally the Ribelle/EVA107 as well.
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6. Yes it's too darned heavy
Just ride my 1,000 lb Harley a few times and then you will be saying how nice and light the Energicas are!
And I enjoy my Harley a lot! It's the most comfy bike I own for a long trip.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Don, are there, like, no steep hills you have to park on, or nadgery corners in Reno or something?
Cas :)
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Just ride my 1,000 lb Harley a few times and then you will be saying how nice and light the Energicas are!
And I enjoy my Harley a lot! It's the most comfy bike I own for a long trip.
-Don- Reno, NV
+1 ,
I own 6 Harley's and a Goldwing GL1800 and they are much heavier then the Energica, the Ribelle is a leightweight :) and even have a reverse same as my GL.
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Don, are there, like, no steep hills you have to park on, or nadgery corners in Reno or something?
Cas :)
There are a few, in fact, I am on the very top of a hill here. But Reno is nothing like it is in San Francisco.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Some ideas from my side, focused on the SS9+. Most topics apply on all models.
1. Throttle
I love to set regen to max in the city and only ride with the twist of my hand. The last few degrees of the throttle travel controls the level of regen applied. For my taste it provides insufficient controllability because it kicks in only in the last few degrees of rotation.
I'd love if Mrs Energica would improve this ;) - keep the forward rotation (top of grip rolls towards the rider) for acceleration with spring-loaded return. If fully closed, the Energica would coast without any regen.
Add back backward rotation to apply regen braking. Again, this negative travel should be spring loaded (tbd higher force) and circa 1/3 of the forward travel. Side effect: In parking mode, it can be used as reverse, so no need to push the button to toggle fwd/reverse. And probably there is no longer the need for a SW setting of the max regen level.
I have experienced this on a Vectrix scooter. At first unexpected, but even after a few kilometers, it feels very natural.
In case this is too much effort: Increase the angle that is used to apply the regen. Probably to be done only by a SW parameter change (if so then add this parameter to the settings menu).
2. Craftsmanship of top cover plastic part.
For a >>20k bike, the squeaking part does not match the overall perfect build quality. I guess the root cause is the Energica Heartbeat LED section in the top cover. Same plastic type mounted together create squeak - every automotive designer knows that, why not Energica? An unintended gentle push will already make it squeak - sounds like coming from the cheapest Chinese scooter, not at all worthy of an Energica. Choosing different plastics would solve this without extra cost (but due to different shrink rates probably require new tooling).
3. Primary gear - straight toothed
Either drive chain sprocket directly, or as mentioned above, use belt drive right away... It is not that I couldn‘t stand the sound (it’s Even kinda cool). But imho electric riding goes along with silence. Would pay 500EUR/USD/GBP extra if I would have the silent option.
4. 3G/LTE connection to check charge status
Already mentioned, I‘d second that.
5. AC Charger with min 6kW, ideally 11kW (most Type2 charging stations in Europe have 11 or 22kW - they are growing like wheed even in unexpected places). Already mentioned. I would accept additional 5kgs plus extra cost.
6. Find some storage space for documents - lockable & rain proof (underneath the seat?!)
7. Better harmonized suspension. Without spending >2k on Ohlins, the rear suspension‘s damping does not match the front fork. A problem easily solvable for Energica.
8. Button layout for cruise control - already discussed...
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I got my Ribelle in March - now have over 4,000 miles on it.
The only thing I would change is the seat - after riding a few hundred miles it isn't comfortable - maybe another 1/2 inch of foam padding would do it.
As far as the charging - I've never wished for faster AC charging - I only do the AC charging at home (overnight). When on long rides I just stop at a CCS station.
A center-stand would make it easier to lube the chain, but not sure if the extra weight would be worth the trade-off. In any case it only takes a few minutes to lube the chain - just have to push the bike a bit, add the lube, push it a bit, etc.
The longest ride I've done so far is 550 miles in one day - the bike performed flawlessly.
Of course we'd all love to have an infinite range battery ;-) ....
but for now the bike is near-perfect, in my opinion.
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Really surprised no one has mentioned this one. The only thing I want on my SS9+ is active battery cooling. I'm willing to trade the AC charger for a 1KW unit in exchange for a cold plate and heat pump that liquid cools the battery and lets you do multiple 22KW charges.
All the manufacturers are going to need to get on board with active cooling if they want to push the envelope and make long distance riding a reality. 500 miles of riding my ss9+ three days ago resulted in 1x 16KW average charge and about 6x 13kw average charges. you just can't get around cooling that much thermal mass with no good heat sinking. The channel on the old batteries is a great idea but likely adds a ton of weight and complexity. I think a heat pump closed loop air cooling system that slightly reduces charging efficiency would be fantastic.
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Also I totally disagree with the idea that energica won't get into dirt/adventure bikes. BMW probably didn't look like it would either. They have the potential to make a great adventure bike with longer travel suspension and more appropriate bars and footpegs. I'm happy to throw around a heavy bike on the dirt and crappy roads.
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...you just can't get around cooling that much thermal mass with no good heat sinking. The channel on the old batteries is a great idea but likely adds a ton of weight and complexity. I think a heat pump closed loop air cooling system that slightly reduces charging efficiency would be fantastic.
Spot-on.
What is the range to yellow? Anything below this curve is safe area of operation.
Variables are ambient temperature, average speed and flog factor.
Just a guess, @90F 50-miles @ 70mph versus 90-miles @75F @ 70mph - that's the duty time I intend to apply, stay off yellow, don't have the bike yet but I can tell it will be fun characterizing it for such then decide true application. I accept tradeoffs and don't plan 500 mile days.
Unless it's 45F I don't see it coming off of yellow once it gets there w/o rest to dissipate, true?
Call it foggy expectations... ???
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Unless it's 45F I don't see it coming off of yellow once it gets there w/o rest to dissipate, true?
No, it often goes back to green, even on a very hot day, after riding easy for 30 miles or so. Riding down hill for a while can make it go back to green a lot faster.
On a hot day after some hard riding, after DC fast charging, the battery temperature indicator going to yellow seems to be the norm on mine.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Unless it's 45F I don't see it coming off of yellow once it gets there w/o rest to dissipate, true?
No, it often goes back to green, even on a very hot day, after riding easy for 30 miles or so. Riding down hill for a while can make it go back to green a lot faster.
On a hot day after some hard riding, after DC fast charging, the battery temperature indicator going to yellow seems to be the norm on mine.
Don, I think PWM is talking about the + models without the additional cooling channel through the battery...
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Don, I think PWM is talking about the + models without the additional cooling channel through the battery...
Is the battery cooling done differently on the SS9+ ? I assumed it would be the same as my SS9- .
-Don- Reno, NV
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Is the battery cooling done differently on the SS9+ ?
Very much so. That's part of how they added more batteries and dropped 40 lbs on the bikes.
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Very much so. That's part of how they added more batteries and dropped 40 lbs on the bikes.
Which cooling works best between the "+" and the "-" models?
I have had many yellows on my 2020 SS9-. Usually right after after a CCS charge and perhaps for another half hour or so of riding depending on where. But I have ridden on many days this summer that were above 100° F.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Cooling works better on the 13.4kWh packs. Go ahead and look at yours from the front of the bike. See how the battery case has a series of open holes down the middle? Those are cooling channels. They direct air around the smaller internal sealed packs. This allows your battery to actively cool while you ride. Works very nice.
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Cooling works better on the 13.4kWh packs. Go ahead and look at yours from the front of the bike. See how the battery case has a series of open holes down the middle? Those are cooling channels. They direct air around the smaller internal sealed packs. This allows your battery to actively cool while you ride. Works very nice.
OIC. I didn't realize the + models didn't have such. But even my yellow has been on for quite a while when riding, but it is always right after a CCS fast charge. Too bad there wasn't a way to keep the battery cooler while fast charging.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Turn down the charge rate.
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Turn down the charge rate.
Is that what you have been doing?
That will be a good way to deal with it, especially when they stop charging for the time it takes to charge which is more expensive than the KWs used to charge up a motorcycle.
On a hot day, how much should I turn down the charge rate to stay in the green?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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On a hot day you straight-up may not be able to stay in the green. Case in point: I recently rode from LA to Monterey Bay. When I left LA it was 107F, and this put my battery in the yellow just from highway riding. At my first charge stop my rate was throttled down to 14-15kW. It took until the ambient air cooled down to around 80F before I saw green battery again. You have to remember that the delta for battery temperature being hot or cold is INCREDIBLY narrow.
Think how hot a gas bike's pistons get. Like 600F or higher. Even if it's 107 outside you've still got 500 degrees of cooling to work with. Batteries, on the other hand, explode at around 175F. As a precaution, most manufacturers disengage them at around 130. If your batteries are in the mid 120s and it's 107 out you have a paltry 13 degrees in which to cool them. Even if they were fully exposed to the air with fans on them they're going to be in the yellow because that temperature within that window.
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Good info - I agree on first generation design is better at cooling but can't speak from experience.
A battery sock with electronically metered water drip for extreme temperature riding - one measure. Water mist is the other method and easier to implement both options need a water bottle no bigger than a thermos and arduino and tiny pump. The on time would be short and quick under high pressure for the favored water mist approach - the off time gives a tiny pump time to spin up the pressure and it shuts down under pressure.
Everything I've seen about the (+) series is they are well sealed to tolerate water exposure particularly the front face where short front fender on a rainy ride presents much more random splash versus the controlled amount that makes a difference on a hot dry day - the 40C yellow trip point is nothing to get ones panties in a wad either - just sustained yellow is not healthy and yeah, happens after CCS which makes sense even w/ the factory throttling at play...
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On a hot day you straight-up may not be able to stay in the green. Case in point: I recently rode from LA to Monterey Bay. When I left LA it was 107F, and this put my battery in the yellow just from highway riding. At my first charge stop my rate was throttled down to 14-15kW. It took until the ambient air cooled down to around 80F before I saw green battery again. You have to remember that the delta for battery temperature being hot or cold is INCREDIBLY narrow.
Think how hot a gas bike's pistons get. Like 600F or higher. Even if it's 107 outside you've still got 500 degrees of cooling to work with. Batteries, on the other hand, explode at around 175F. As a precaution, most manufacturers disengage them at around 130. If your batteries are in the mid 120s and it's 107 out you have a paltry 13 degrees in which to cool them. Even if they were fully exposed to the air with fans on them they're going to be in the yellow because that temperature within that window.
Ever got into the red zone? How likely is it to get into the red on a hot day? IIRC, that puts the bike in a limp mode, doesn't it?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I can see my Ribelle morphing into a mad-max road-warrior sorta thing...this should work...
https://www.amazon.com/Seaflo-100PSI-Self-priming-Diaphragm-Pump/dp/B0166UBJX4/ref=sr_1_20?dchild=1&keywords=High+Pressure+Low+Flow+Water+Pump&qid=1600999583&sr=8-20
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Ever got into the red zone? How likely is it to get into the red on a hot day? IIRC, that puts the bike in a limp mode, doesn't it?
-Don- Auburn, CA
I have never gone into red, no. That's a combination of aggressive riding and fast charging, and even my highway riding doesn't do that. Brandon, on the other hand...
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This past Saturday my Ribelle was at my dealer for several hours so the battery would have been completely cooled down from the trip there. Temps were around 70 degrees. There was a CCS charger four miles from the dealer so the battery would not have been warmed up by the time I got there. Battery was at 21% SOC. It started to taper at 37% SOC which is an indicator the battery is in the yellow. The battery icon stayed yellow for the 64 mile trip home and for over half an hour after that and possibly longer. This is similar to a week ago when I CCS charged after getting the 600 mile service done.
For comparison: In July 2018 I rode my Eva 107 on the Blue Ridge Parkway in North Carolina. I rode 414 miles that day and CCS charged 6 times and never got the battery into yellow. I don't remember the temps but most likely in the 80's maybe close to 90.
Bottom line here is at 70 degrees and a cool battery the Ribelle battery quickly gets hot while CCS charging. Right now summertime charging when temps are in the 90s or hotter are going to be extremely slow unless Energica gets something figured out. I think it is going to be interesting with winter coming and much colder temps on the way to see just how cold does it have to get in order to CCS charge a Ribelle without the battery going into yellow. My guess is it has to be in the 40 degree range, maybe colder.
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I think it is going to be interesting with winter coming and much colder temps on the way to see just how cold does it have to get in order to CCS charge a Ribelle without the battery going into yellow. My guess is it has to be in the 40 degree range, maybe colder.
Yesterday I rode with ambient temperature between 8 and 14°C (46 to 57F) around 90km before charging from 25 to 60 percent in 15 Minutes at the full 24kW. I started from a 20C warm garage and rode quite quickly to and from the charger. Never saw any yellow battery.
I think those batteries are hard to cool down by just standing around. Was your battery yellow before you arrived at the dealer? How long is "several hours"?
EDIT: I'm so glad that I ordered the heated grips :)
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reini, The battery icon was green when I got to my dealer and was there for 4 hours or so. Agree, they are hard to cool down by just standing around. Also hard to cool down when going 70+ mph on 4-lane roads. Of the 64 miles home about 48 miles was at 70-75 mph.
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One more thing I would want on my perfect Energica is a travel trunk. I carry a lot of stuff just for charging, such as my modified granny cable, adapters, Tesla-Tap and etc. I like the idea I can charge from anywhere I can find AC.
I even have mixed feelings about needing more range as there are more and more charge stations by the week or so, especially if the J-1772's are counted. That's why I want that 6 KW AC charging! The larger battery doesn't charge any faster than my 11.7 KWH battery, for the same distance. OTOH, it is better to have more range and not need it than to need it and not have it.
So I am up to three items. 6KW AC charging, centerstand & the travel trunk. I think most of the other stuff I can live without.
-Don- Reno, NV