ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Harley LiveWire Forum => Topic started by: Richard230 on September 07, 2020, 08:15:15 PM
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Here they go again. This time on LiveWires, no doubt backed up by a huge contingent of support equipment, including trucks with portable generators to recharge the bikes and technicians to repair them if anything goes wrong - and also maybe guys in trench coats with bags of money to pay off officials at the border crossings. ;) :
https://electricmotorcycles.news/an-epic-new-electric-motorcycle-series-starring-ewan-mcgregor-and-charley-boorman/
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Here is another story regarding this trip: https://electrek.co/2020/02/06/behind-the-scenes-look-at-ewan-mcgregors-9000-mile-livewire-electric-motorcycle-ride/
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Reminds me of the story of the couple that used a Zero across part of Africa, and eventually dumped their support car because while rare, electricity was more common than gasoline and parts.
-Crissa
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Here they go again. This time on LiveWires, no doubt backed up by a huge contingent of support equipment, including trucks with portable generators to recharge the bikes and technicians to repair them if anything goes wrong - and also maybe guys in trench coats with bags of money to pay off officials at the border crossings. ;) :
Rivian electric trucks. Should be able to charge directly from the truck’s PTO. But then where are they going to charge the truck?
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Here they go again. This time on LiveWires, no doubt backed up by a huge contingent of support equipment, including trucks with portable generators to recharge the bikes and technicians to repair them if anything goes wrong - and also maybe guys in trench coats with bags of money to pay off officials at the border crossings. ;) :
Rivian electric trucks. Should be able to charge directly from the truck’s PTO. But then where are they going to charge the truck?
I saw one photo of two support trucks that seemed to have a large gasoline generator in the back.
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Fully Charged did an interview with Charlie and one very interesting tid bit is they were also accompanied by a company who was installing charge stations ( about every hundred miles) all along their route so that others can make the same trip on electric motorcycles.
Like an electric Johnny Appleseed.
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I watched the first couple of episodes. Very suspicious how they dismissed the Zero DSR that they test rode and mentioned that current electric bikes had about 75 miles of range. Then they rode the LiveWire and had it converted (by HD) to "adventure bike" spec. A quick check shows a significantly higher range for the DSR with power tank compared to the LW. My calculation are 39% higher for city riding and 73% higher for combined use. Generally a far better choice than the LiveWire. I suspect HD may have paid a fair bit towards the production / charging stations, etc.
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I don't think Harley paid for the stations, but yes, they clearly don't know their stuff about Zeros. Very irresponsible.
-Crissa
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A quick check shows a significantly higher range for the DSR with power tank compared to the LW. My calculation are 39% higher for city riding and 73% higher for combined use. Generally a far better choice than the LiveWire.
What is your math?
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A quick check shows a significantly higher range for the DSR with power tank compared to the LW. My calculation are 39% higher for city riding and 73% higher for combined use. Generally a far better choice than the LiveWire.
What is your math?
I took the manufacturer quoted ranges for city ranges and for combined use. This will only ever give a rough guide, but the Zero clearly has more range.
Zero DSR (with power tank)
city 204 miles - from https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-dsr
combined 153 miles
Harley LiveWire
city 146 miles - from https://www.harley-davidson.com/gb/en/motorcycles/livewire.html
combined 88 miles - from https://electrek.co/2019/03/06/harley-davidson-updates-livewire-specs/
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Real-world riding of both of those suggests an actual typical range exactly half of the claimed city range: Zeros do 90 ish, the LW does 70. (Source: various youtubers, and Bike magazine)
Cas :)
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'Real world' aka you drive on a different mix of roads, fast.
I get 80-90 miles on my Zero.
-Crissa
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I took the manufacturer quoted ranges for city ranges and for combined use. This will only ever give a rough guide, but the Zero clearly has more range.
Zero DSR (with power tank)
city 204 miles - from https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-dsr
combined 153 miles
Harley LiveWire
city 146 miles - from https://www.harley-davidson.com/gb/en/motorcycles/livewire.html
combined 88 miles - from https://electrek.co/2019/03/06/harley-davidson-updates-livewire-specs/
Having experience on both the DSR and the LiveWire I can promise you that H-D undersold the range specs on their bike. They also didn't inflate their battery numbers and in fact undersold those as well. I suspect that if H-D used the same formulas as Zero to market their battery numbers it would be well over 17kWh, but marketed as 13 and change. A Zero's 18kWh (14.4 + 3.6) is read, by the bikes, as 142.5Ah at a nominal voltage of 102vdc. 142.5Ah x 102V = 14535Wh aka 14.5kWh. Not as massive of a difference.
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Having experience on both the DSR and the LiveWire I can promise you that H-D undersold the range specs on their bike. They also didn't inflate their battery numbers and in fact undersold those as well. I suspect that if H-D used the same formulas as Zero to market their battery numbers it would be well over 17kWh, but marketed as 13 and change. A Zero's 18kWh (14.4 + 3.6) is read, by the bikes, as 142.5Ah at a nominal voltage of 102vdc. 142.5Ah x 102V = 14535Wh aka 14.5kWh. Not as massive of a difference.
Did I hear somewhere at the LW is totally dead at 0% SOC? No "reserve" at all? If so, that can make it seem as it has more range than the other bikes that keep on running at 0% SOC.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Apparently it also gives 100% acceleration right up to that point too, so they're clearly restricting its output to ensure that it's consistent to ride from 100% to 0%, which is a very good thing.
Cas :)
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Does the DSR or Livewire have more range?
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Similar. The HD is heavier but more aero. Add a charge tank and the DSR would go farther but be really top heavy.
Very different motos otherwise.
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Don't talk about it, be about it.
Let's get the bikes together and ride side by side (no drafting) with similar sized riders and run them until they stop and see.
In the end all that matters is how far the thing can go and there are more factors than just battery size.
Wind screens? If so OEM only to see what the company offers to it's customers.
So a LW vs a SR with PT and a SRF which really is the closest to a LW and an Energica SS9. I'll concede that a SS9+ should win easy.
Challenge proposed!
And may the best bike win.
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I'll concede that a SS9+ should win easy.
I would say it will be a close range by looking at the claimed spcs. At very slow speeds (20 MPH) , Zeros can do much better than Zero claims for city (223 miles/360 KM) . At higher speeds, Zero's spec is the same as Energica + for range (112 miles/180 KM ).
Energica + specs (any model of +) 249 city /400KM) also 112 miles / 180 KM).
IMO, Zero specs are inflated a bit less, so I would bet on the Zero SR with power tank, but I would expect its range to be very close to the Energica +.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Also, for funsies, pay attention to their speedometers when they ride. Look at what speeds they're taking this tip.
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Also, for funsies, pay attention to their speedometers when they ride. Look at what speeds they're taking this t<r>ip.
That will probably be accurate on a HD LW (or even a Zero). But don't bother to look at the Energica's speedometers. It's almost 10 MPH high at the faster speeds. The worse I have seen. My Moto Guzzi is the same way, and my TTSE is almost as bad. I assume it's an European thing for them to read way high, perhaps because of all their speed cameras.
BTW, I took a long ride with a guy who has a LW today. We charged up in Colfax (https://www.plugshare.com/location/217070) after a ride to Forest Hill and down the Iowa Hills to Colfax. He charged at 14 KW as I was charging at 24 KW on my Energica.
He is an employee at Elcon and that was how we met just a few days ago when I purchased a couple of 3.3 KW chargers for my Zero SR.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I checked my Ribelle's speedometer today against my GPS. The Ribelle was reading 6-7 MPH faster than the GPS was.
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Also, for funsies, pay attention to their speedometers when they ride. Look at what speeds they're taking this t<r>ip.
That will probably be accurate on a HD LW (or even a Zero). But don't bother to look at the Energica's speedometers. It's almost 10 MPH high at the faster speeds. The worse I have seen. My Moto Guzzi is the same way, and my TTSE is almost as bad. I assume it's an European thing for them to read way high, perhaps because of all their speed cameras.
BTW, I took a long ride with a guy who has a LW today. We charged up in Colfax (https://www.plugshare.com/location/217070) after a ride to Forest Hill and down the Iowa Hills to Colfax. He charged at 14 KW as I was charging at 24 KW on my Energica.
He is an employee at Elcon and that was how we met just a few days ago when I purchased a couple of 3.3 KW chargers for my Zero SR.
-Don- Auburn, CA
I too thought that nutty speedometers was a European thing, as both of my BMW's read 8 mph fast, while my Zero and Yamaha are right on the money. Even my Royal Enfield with its cable-driven speedo only reads 3 mph high. But then I discovered that my KTM 390 Duke is also very accurate, showing just 1 mph high. So perhaps it is just a German and Italian response to get more speed out of their bikes with no additional expenditure. ::)
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I checked my Ribelle's speedometer today against my GPS. The Ribelle was reading 6-7 MPH faster than the GPS was.
It's a percentage thing, if not progressive with speed. IOW, the faster I ride, the higher off it reads on my SS9. Zeros and Harleys are right on. If high, no more than 1 MPH. At least with the stock tires, etc.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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My point wasn't about the speedometers being accurate or inaccurate. My point was the entire trip was basically done at ~30-40mph. Mind-bogglingly slow and boring.
And Elcon doesn't make anything; they're just a distributor. Did you pick up some TC units for the Zero? How do you plan on doing the CAN controls?
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My point wasn't about the speedometers being accurate or inaccurate. My point was the entire trip was basically done at ~30-40mph. Mind-bogglingly slow and boring.
I enjoy riding electric motorcycles slow, where possible. I normally take the long slow way as I usually am not in a hurry (retired!).
You may consider the speedometer discussion a thread hijack! :) And same for the rest of this message. ;D
And Elcon doesn't make anything; they're just a distributor. Did you pick up some TC units for the Zero? How do you plan on doing the CAN controls?
Yeah, I know they just distribute (and program) EV chargers. Mine are simple, they simply turn off (or very close to off) at ~114 VDC . That's around 95% SOC, the OBC can take over from there, if I want that last 5%. I discovered my Elcons will still charge up to 100%, but that is if I have all night to wait for the last few %, as then the charge rate is about 150 watts if I don't run the OBC.
Up to 90% SOC or so, it is mostly around 6.6 KW charging with the two Elcon 3.3KW chargers running alone, no CANBUS connection.
BTW, I also own two Elcon PF2500's. Those had the CANBUS connection option available back then, but I wasn't concerned of the better charging near the end, and they have worked out very well for me. I will now use those on my DS.
BTW, they mentioned DigiNow and how you guys did your own canbus programming somehow. Or somebody did it for you, but Elcon didn't do it on those units, I was told.
I think the new chargers I have are the same ones you used(<Item Code UHF 3300> 3.3 kw, UHF 132-32 HKC-L13800-114v32A 8/10/20/66.67 AH) just mine require no CANBUS connection but won't charge to full.
The two chargers cost me $1,330.00 ($650.00 each). Much better deal than the DeltaQ's. I am very happy with all four of them.
I have been using their two 2.5 KW units for more than a year with no issue. With the new units & OBC running, they exceed the power of most J-stations. So I did this modification (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.30) to switch in and out the OBC as required. The 2.5 KW units are no longer made. They are the same ones Hollywood Electric used to sell, but programed a bit differently so there is no need for the CANBUS connection.
As I am sure you know, the newer 3.3 KW units are smaller, lighter, more efficient and more power than the 2.5 KW units.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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BTW, they mentioned DigiNow and how you guys did your own canbus programming somehow. Or somebody did it for you, but Elcon didn't do it on those units, I was told.
ahahahahhahahahaha
Elcon doesn't do *anything*
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Elcon doesn't do *anything*
Well, they programmed mine for 114 VDC max so you cannot say they don't do "anything". Perhaps takes them a full two or three minutes or so.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Elcon doesn't do *anything*
Did Sayyed work there when you were dealing with Elcon? He is the guy who programs up the chargers at Elcon.
*moderator note: merged posts. keep it on topic or the thread will be locked.
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I’ve watched all of the four episodes streamed so far. I’m totally disappointed.
Clearly they never talked to ANYONE with any electric motorcycle experience whatsoever. It’s sooo embarrassing.
As a rider of four different electric bikes (so far) it’s clear to me that kWh rating of the battery pack wins the range race every time - except perhaps for the extreme aerodynamic ‘dustbin’ fairings.
The HD-Livewire battery is rated at 15.5 kWh, the Zero DSR, with PowerTank is 18 kWh. (The DSR is the bike that the show casually dismissed as impractical at “70 miles of range” - how about a defamation law-suit Zero?). The Livewire bikes on this TV show are not modified for aerodynamics, that I can see.
As mentioned above - I’m sure that Harley paid $$ and probably also donated the bikes to get the publicity. The only advantage of Harley over the Zero is the CCS charging, but as we see in the first four episodes - they never use this feature - charging only at Level I or Level II charging (and from a diesel generator!)
Why don’t we see an attempt to charge at someone’s house (clothes-drier outlet?) or at an RV campground (30A or 50A)?
If they had hired Terry Hershner, or BenSwing Rich as consultants - this show would have been sooo much better.
At the beginning of ‘Long Way Up’ they mentioned a couple of times that “no one has ever attempted a ride like this before” - really?
What about Tom Tomczyk? Didn’t he do this ride five years ago?
By the way - I have no bias against Harley - I hope I don’t sound like I do - the Livewire is an awesome bike - I just wish this show had done some fact-checking before starting.
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Why don’t we see an attempt to charge at someone’s house (clothes-drier outlet?) or at an RV campground (30A or 50A)?
Could it be because it's the same charge rate as a 120 VAC outlet when the LW charges with 240 VAC as with 120 VAC? The LW charger is very mickey-mouse, much like OBCs in my 2017 Zeros.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I’ve watched all of the four episodes streamed so far. I’m totally disappointed.
Clearly they never talked to ANYONE with any electric motorcycle experience whatsoever. It’s sooo embarrassing.
As a rider of four different electric bikes (so far) it’s clear to me that kWh rating of the battery pack wins the range race every time - except perhaps for the extreme aerodynamic ‘dustbin’ fairings.
The HD-Livewire battery is rated at 15.5 kWh, the Zero DSR, with PowerTank is 18 kWh. (The DSR is the bike that the show casually dismissed as impractical at “70 miles of range” - how about a defamation law-suit Zero?). The Livewire bikes on this TV show are not modified for aerodynamics, that I can see.
As mentioned above - I’m sure that Harley paid $$ and probably also donated the bikes to get the publicity. The only advantage of Harley over the Zero is the CCS charging, but as we see in the first four episodes - they never use this feature - charging only at Level I or Level II charging (and from a diesel generator!)
Why don’t we see an attempt to charge at someone’s house (clothes-drier outlet?) or at an RV campground (30A or 50A)?
If they had hired Terry Hershner, or BenSwing Rich as consultants - this show would have been sooo much better.
At the beginning of ‘Long Way Up’ they mentioned a couple of times that “no one has ever attempted a ride like this before” - really?
What about Tom Tomczyk? Didn’t he do this ride five years ago?
By the way - I have no bias against Harley - I hope I don’t sound like I do - the Livewire is an awesome bike - I just wish this show had done some fact-checking before starting.
Actually Brandon and I were contracted to make portable CCS chargers for these bikes. Which we made and sent down to... Paraguay? Can't remember. Brandon *tried* to get them to send him down as an advisor but we assume internal H-D drama prevented this from actually happening. We did everything we could to support them, though. I delivered the units to the contact in LA myself. They were set to deliver 5-6kW from the J1772 stations EnelX set up along the way.
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In an interview they did say they had 'something' they could use to charge the bikes but couldn't at the same time as the trucks. Sounds like your box ^-^
That's cool. And future-y!
-Crissa
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...we assume internal H-D drama prevented this from actually happening. We did everything we could to support them, though. I delivered the units to the contact in LA myself. They were set to deliver 5-6kW from the J1772 stations EnelX set up along the way.
Moving past my first reaction of astonishment, it makes a kind of sense. The value of H-D brand name weighs more heavily on a documentary film series than other factors. There's less return on investment using a bike with lesser brand name recognition what has a decent L2 charger built in as a factory option. If viewers want to repeat the same journey on that H-D bike at a similar pace using the installed EnelX J1772 stations then they won't be able to until the gargantuan investment of L3 charging stations takes form all along the way, or else they inherit a support crew toting a L2-to-L3 charging gizmo. Will H-D add better L2 charging capability as a factory configuration on their bike(s)? Could the L2-to-L3 charging gizmo be engineered small enough to be sensible as an item to tour with and not need a support vehicle?
Those new EnelX J1772 L2 charging stations as H-D bike owners can only hope are hopefully going to be the seed of charging infrastructure visibility, for future investment in L3 charging that actually works effectively with the H-D bike as presented.
I'm in such close proximity to California USA where J1772 have existed for many years and L3 charging was lurking about (yet not so common) until Tesla dumped $8-billion into their Supercharger network only their customers can use... as a result of that and other factors like the judgement against Volkswagen, L3 charging today is both common and not common. For the application of eMoto and L3 charging none of the infrastructure available feels like there is any input from eMoto riders or manufacturers. However I do think that any activity to install EVSE's is a good outcome (even though the L2 J1772 stations installed are not to the most benefit of the H-D bike being featured).
Charging an eMoto vehicle at less than 1C while out and about just makes me facepalm as a reaction instinctively. It's so... 10 years ago.
All that said, again, congrats for providing the missing puzzle piece for this epic brew of name brand mismatched ingredients. ;)
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If you want to charge your Livewire or Energica at 6kw here you go.
https://www.evseadapters.com/products/portable-chademo-ccs-combo-dc-quick-charger/
You can plug it into a 220 volt outlet or use a J1772.
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Yeah that's like double the size of the one we made. That's a SETEC unit. I'm familiar with them.
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Yeah, on the SETEC page I found, they had a model that charged DC as well. That page isn't as detailed nor says that, but why would it have a combo handle?
-Crissa
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I thought Zeros were pricy at $18,000. These things cost $10,000 more. Jeezo.
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"Something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it."
Like, dating redheads. The upfront price is only one part of the overall risk :-)
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Well, Brandon is a redhead and our business relationship hasn't been cheap.
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Heh :) I should've specified 'the opposite gender' perhaps - I'm old-fashioned that way.