ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: fcvarela on September 02, 2020, 04:31:58 PM
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Zero's strategy seems to be making bikes for the US market only where people have garages and are able to charge overnight. The eurasian market is huge when compared to US and people generally live in cities and can only use public charging stations. Does anyone know is Zero is purposefully making the bikes unatractive to non US markets, perhaps because they lack the size to be able to support sales/repairs, etc?
I've lost count of how many people interested in buying first bike and not even considering ICE gave up on the FXS because it doesn't have level 2 charging and people don't have garages or private parking. They had to buy the bike they weren't very enthused about (7.2kwh S) and pay extra for a charge tank. This makes the minimum price for a usable bike in non US markets very high.
Wouldn't it be in their investors' interests to sell more and create a loyal user base before the competition (years away, to be fair) captures the eurasian market? What could the rationale be for not having, at least, 3.3kw built-in charging on the FXS and S? I'm sure it's me who's missing something, but interested in other's perspectives for calibration.
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How much does Energica cost in these same countries? There seem to be plenty of electric bikes that sell for far cheaper than the Zero FX but they're not available in the US. They don't appear to have the range or the power of the FX platform.
You get what you pay for.
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How much does Energica cost in these same countries? There seem to be plenty of electric bikes that sell for far cheaper than the Zero FX but they're not available in the US. They don't appear to have the range or the power of the FX platform.
You get what you pay for.
In Europe at least, the Energicas are priced between SR/F and LiveWire, absolutely out of league for 99% people wanting a bike for cheap commute. The cheaper Zeros are what everyone wants but can't use. There are cheaper bikes but they're from new-ish brands without proven track record of having decent service, durability, etc.
My personal opinion is that the FXS and S would be perfect commuter bikes for our market if they had level 2 charging. The vast majority of potential commuters over here simply don't have an outlet to plug them into.
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At least here in the UK those that choose to ride are typically those that also either have a garage or can park the bike right in front of their house, on a drive way or the top of their front garden. Especially those that are will to spend in the neighbourhood of £10k for a bike. Those that would have to resort to street parking, for example if they live in a flat, also tend to be poorer, and those that aren't choose to rent a garage a short walk from their home.
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You can always get the modular version of the FX or FXS. That gives you an option that the other Zeros don't: The ability to remove the battery and take it indoors to charge. Also makes the bike less attractive parked outside, as it is of little use to a potential thief with the most expensive part removed.
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I don't think the modular version is an option outside of the US, at least it's not listed on their site.
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The days of bikes being transport for the great unwashed are unfortunately behind us now. Bikes are toys for the well heeled by-and-large, which is a massive shame, but it's a no-brainer when new cars now cost less than new bikes.
Cas :)
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At least here in the UK those that choose to ride are typically those that also either have a garage or can park the bike right in front of their house, on a drive way or the top of their front garden. Especially those that are will to spend in the neighbourhood of £10k for a bike. Those that would have to resort to street parking, for example if they live in a flat, also tend to be poorer, and those that aren't choose to rent a garage a short walk from their home.
I live in London. The vast majority of houses here and in other european/asian cities - where a majority of potential customers exist - have neither a front porch, a garden or a garage. Most high paying jobs are in cities as well, which is also why most people who can afford a 10k bike live there. Even areas with dedicated parking don't have electricity much less infrastructure to charge a bike for 8h or more.
The fact is, there is a gigantic market for these bikes and they'd sell like hot pancakes if they were compatible with the infrastructure and city layouts of europe and Asia where a majority of people live in cities and have no private parking spaces regardless of how wealthy they are.
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If you can't charge overnight, you're going to lose the main advantage of an EV. Zero cannot change that.
-Crissa
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The days of bikes being transport for the great unwashed are unfortunately behind us now. Bikes are toys for the well heeled by-and-large, which is a massive shame, but it's a no-brainer when new cars now cost less than new bikes.
Cas :)
This is the thing. They're coming back. Here's why:
1 - Tax exempt for the forseeable future as long as cities need to encourage greener vehicles
2 - Environmentally friendly
3 - No noise
4 - No congestion taxes because they're bikes (not just because they're electric)
5 - Able to comfortably commute over many miles (unlike bicycles, electric scooters, unicycles, etc)
6 - People who commuted with public transport and can afford an electric motorcycle are aplenty in cities and are looking at them to avoid getting ill in this new COVID reality
7 - ICE taxes, congrstion taxes and circulation limitations are only going to go up/increase
8 - Most of europe and largest asian markets are flat out phasing out new ICE sales within a few years
US is different in many of these aspects, especially because it produces and exports fuels and has very little political will to sign lowered emissions resolutions.
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If you can't charge overnight, you're going to lose the main advantage of an EV. Zero cannot change that.
-Crissa
Why would I need to charge overnight if I can park near a public charger and charge in 1h? All I need is a bike with a faster charger. You're assuming what you see as an advantage is something that makes sense for everyone, perhaps? It certainly doesn't for me.
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That really is the biggest advantage of an electric bike though (as they're disadvantaged in so many other ways right now). I can't be arsed to get up an hour earlier to ride to a charging station before I can get to work. And hope there's a space. And hope that it works. Charging at home is pretty much the killer feature.
Cas :)
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That really is the biggest advantage of an electric bike though (as they're disadvantaged in so many other ways right now). I can't be arsed to get up an hour earlier to ride to a charging station before I can get to work. And hope there's a space. And hope that it works. Charging at home is pretty much the killer feature.
Cas :)
I'm not arguing this isn't convenient for those who can. I'm saying the market will grow to everyone, not just those with private parking, and companies who don't cater for them (no fast charging) won't sell. Keep in mind within a few years all ICE sales will have been replaced with EV.
My case is what I imagine most people without private parking do. I charge it for 1h during weekend and i'm good for the week. I wouldn't be able to do this with an FXS.
My whole point is, charging speed matters when private parking isn't available and most potential new customers don't have private parking.
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I live in London. The vast majority of houses here and in other european/asian cities - where a majority of potential customers exist - have neither a front porch, a garden or a garage. Most high paying jobs are in cities as well, which is also why most people who can afford a 10k bike live there. Even areas with dedicated parking don't have electricity much less infrastructure to charge a bike for 8h or more.
The fact is, there is a gigantic market for these bikes and they'd sell like hot pancakes if they were compatible with the infrastructure and city layouts of europe and Asia where a majority of people live in cities and have no private parking spaces regardless of how wealthy they are.
Well you can hardly blame Zero for the logistics of not having a place to charge your bike. Europe made the decision to build their homes like that over 100 years without the knowledge of electric bikes, and this is what happens. (In other words, no one is to blame). If you don't have a garage, you won't be charging an EV car either.
That said, the Zero FX design is about 5 years old. It's possible your wish will be granted soon enough.
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I live in London. The vast majority of houses here and in other european/asian cities - where a majority of potential customers exist - have neither a front porch, a garden or a garage. Most high paying jobs are in cities as well, which is also why most people who can afford a 10k bike live there. Even areas with dedicated parking don't have electricity much less infrastructure to charge a bike for 8h or more.
The fact is, there is a gigantic market for these bikes and they'd sell like hot pancakes if they were compatible with the infrastructure and city layouts of europe and Asia where a majority of people live in cities and have no private parking spaces regardless of how wealthy they are.
Well you can hardly blame Zero for the logistics of not having a place to charge your bike. Europe made the decision to build their homes like that over 100 years without the knowledge of electric bikes, and this is what happens. (In other words, no one is to blame). If you don't have a garage, you won't be charging an EV car either.
That said, the Zero FX design is about 5 years old. It's possible your wish will be granted soon enough.
You misunderstood. There are plenty of places across europe and asia to charge EVs. Literally all roads around me have 2-3 lamp posts with level 2 chargers built in. EV cars are aplenty around here as they all have fast chargers. I think you're making the same mistake Zero is in assuming people who don't own garages are never going to buy your product. We would if the product had level 2 charging or even faster level1. I mean the FXS has a 650w charger, that's bonkers. Any wall socket here can do 3.3kw.
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If you don't have a garage, you won't be charging an EV car either.
I think this is what Zero think as well and couldn't be further from the truth outside the US. There are EVs everywhere in Europe and Asia owned by people who don't use/own garages. There is fast, reliable public charging infrastructure almost everywhere.
In this market, a garage isn't a requirement. Fast chargers are.
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I have a Zero FXS and yes the 650W charger is annoying. I think if Zero could have included a better one for a reasonable price, they would have. It's also possible the OEM deals they have prevent them from sourcing a different one, because other EV's certainly have them. Or maybe it's a weight issue? Who knows. We agree that the FX line is hampered by a 650W charger, and I'm sure Zero has been told that over & over.
Zero didn't put a 650W charger in the FX series to tick off European customers. It's simply an old design that is in need of a refresh, which is how all the newer EV's coming out have better chargers. Maybe now that the SR/F and SR/S are done, they can focus on their other models. Hopefully the FX/E will be just that.
https://electrek.co/2020/08/20/zero-trademarks-two-new-electric-motorcycle-models-dsrx-fxe/ (https://electrek.co/2020/08/20/zero-trademarks-two-new-electric-motorcycle-models-dsrx-fxe/)
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I have a Zero FXS and yes the 650W charger is annoying. I think if Zero could have included a better one for a reasonable price, they would have. It's also possible the OEM deals they have prevent them from sourcing a different one, because other EV's certainly have them. Or maybe it's a weight issue? Who knows. We agree that the FX line is hampered by a 650W charger, and I'm sure Zero has been told that over & over.
Zero didn't put a 650W charger in the FX series to tick off European customers. It's simply an old design that is in need of a refresh, which is how all the newer EV's coming out have better chargers. Maybe now that the SR/F and SR/S are done, they can focus on their other models. Hopefully the FX/E will be just that.
https://electrek.co/2020/08/20/zero-trademarks-two-new-electric-motorcycle-models-dsrx-fxe/ (https://electrek.co/2020/08/20/zero-trademarks-two-new-electric-motorcycle-models-dsrx-fxe/)
The charger inside a charge tank for the S/SR models is 6kw and small enough to be used as a replacement for the FX/FXS. My question wasn't whether they did it to tick european customers, it was why haven't they released a faster charger for people to replace those or even an external charger that's faster than 1kw?
Newer models except SR/S SR/F still have slow 1.5kw built-in chargers, right?
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6KW is still too slow though. 11KW is about the minimum acceptable, and even then you'll still spend as much time charging as riding if you actually go anywhere. Energica ftw.
Cas :)
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In the U.S., at least around here, electric-assisted bicycles are a lot more popular than electric motorcycles. I am not sure how attuned Zero is to the European market when it comes to designing their motorcycles. ??? It has always been my impression that they build motorcycle models primarily for what they think the U.S. market might want. Plus, they tend to purchase parts like chargers off the shelf at a price that they can afford, such as the Calex onboard charger that they have stuck with for quite a while now. I believe that Zero's designs are constrained by finances due to their relatively low yearly sales and their governing board being pretty tight-fisted. No doubt their engineers would like to do a lot of things, but they are constrained by their available budget and for that I can't blame them. More than one electric motorcycle brand has gone under because they ran out of cash and didn't keep their eye on the financial ball.
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fcvarela, they make adapter plug cords that let you plug into a J1772 or the EU plug (Menekes?) so people could park the bike and let it pull 650w for the hours your sleeping with no problem.
Remember the 6kW costs about $3600 (for now) and adds weight so be careful what you wish for.
Zero has always stayed on the safe side of charging speed and 6kW puts it very near full 1C charging. That's a little too close for comfort with a five year warranty.
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6KW is still too slow though. 11KW is about the minimum acceptable, and even then you'll still spend as much time charging as riding if you actually go anywhere. Energica ftw.
Cas :)
Not for an FX. :( I don't think these battery types do well with 1C+ charging. It would be ideal if every bike came with a base charger that could do .5C though. That's all I would need.
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If you can't charge overnight, you're going to lose the main advantage of an EV. Zero cannot change that.
Why would I need to charge overnight if I can park near a public charger and charge in 1h?
Because that's far less convenient and much more expensive than plugging in when you just get off the bike. It requires a big, heavy charger, or an expensive battery pack, and also requires an expensive charging station.
The ability to charge in an hour is something that more than doubles the cost of these bottom end city bikes.
It would be awesome if there were 100v dc chargers on every corner to charge up micro mobility but there aren't.
-Crissa
And no, the 6kw charger wouldn't fit in the space of the 650w charger, and even if it did, it would weigh more and cost about a third or half the bike.
And I charge my S with the onboard charger at a type 2 station when I go over the hill. If you have type 2 charge points, it accepts the input with an adapter.
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6KW is still too slow though. 11KW is about the minimum acceptable, and even then you'll still spend as much time charging as riding if you actually go anywhere. Energica ftw.
Cas :)
Not for an FX. :( I don't think these battery types do well with 1C+ charging. It would be ideal if every bike came with a base charger that could do .5C though. That's all I would need.
And here lies the problem. The FX is a low priced, probably low margin bike. Zero doesn't have a massive production capacity, so I imagine if they could choose between pushing people to the FX or an SR/F they'll push for the SR/F every day of the week. And prioritize development/resources for that platform.
It is certainly possible to mount a faster charge on it. Zero would have to go through all the regulations and certifications to do so, and that's not insignificant. How much more would you pay for a level 2 charger onboard? I'm guessing it would add 1-3k to the price, based on their accessory pricing and recouping sunk costs.
Maybe Otten or similiar will hear the plea of the European owners and release a cheap kit with one 3kW charger, and a harness for an inlet.
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Because that's far less convenient and much more expensive than plugging in when you just get off the bike. It requires a big, heavy charger, or an expensive battery pack, and also requires an expensive charging station.
The ability to charge in an hour is something that more than doubles the cost of these bottom end city bikes.
It would be awesome if there were 100v dc chargers on every corner to charge up micro mobility but there aren't.
-Crissa
It doesn't require an expensive battery pack. It requires the same battery pack that's already on the bike. The big heavy charger, in Europe, is literally in every corner. I'm not talking about newer dc rapid chargers. Public level 2 fast charging in Eurasia is how the vast majority of people get by. They're everywhere and my whole point is a lot more people would buy Zero bikes if they supported fast charging on the commuter oriented models (FXS, S) out of the box.
Someone mentioned using the Zero adapter for using these public stations but again they assumed people use them as if they were their personal garage. They're not. Most are time limited to 4h which is not enough to charge using any of the Zero's built-in chargers on any model.
It seems there is a huge mismatch in how the US users think the rest of the world works and the other way around as well. My point is if Zero is making this same mistake, they simply won't be able to grab the market. My original point was whether this is deliberate or not. It may well be that they don't want to create commuter models that are appealing for the Eurasian market because they wouldn't be able to service those bikes, for example. Who knows.
I do think a non profitable investor dependent company at their stage should focus on growth by creating an appealing product first. The domestic market isn't big enough for them to compete with the big players who are about to join in.
It's ok that we all disagree, but I think it's important to clarify what the reality is in each place for an informed discussion.
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I actually don't disagree with you, but show me a comparable bike in another brand with the charger you seek. The $20K+ Energica, HD and Zeros don't count. I'd be interested in one too. 8)
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I actually don't disagree with you, but show me a comparable bike in another brand with the charger you seek. The $20K+ Energica, HD and Zeros don't count. I'd be interested in one too. 8)
I've never seen one, that's part of the problem. Zero is years ahead in actually having a product out. I'm sure the big brands will start releasing models at some point, and it won't make any sense for them to release them without the features that make them usable on the destination markets. Personal garages are not a big segment of markets outside the US.
They don't have real competitors on the commuter segment that I know of, and future competitors seem to be at least 1-2 years behind in actually releasing something, probably a lot more to release something that the public wants.
My worry is that Zero going under for failing to grab these markets will actually mean a huge delay in motorcycle EV adoption. That would be a terrible shame.
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Because that's far less convenient and much more expensive than plugging in when you just get off the bike. It requires a big, heavy charger, or an expensive battery pack, and also requires an expensive charging station.
The ability to charge in an hour is something that more than doubles the cost of these bottom end city bikes.
It would be awesome if there were 100v dc chargers on every corner to charge up micro mobility but there aren't.
-Crissa
It doesn't require an expensive battery pack. It requires the same battery pack that's already on the bike. The big heavy charger, in Europe, is literally in every corner. I'm not talking about newer dc rapid chargers. Public level 2 fast charging in Eurasia is how the vast majority of people get by. They're everywhere and my whole point is a lot more people would buy Zero bikes if they supported fast charging on the commuter oriented models (FXS, S) out of the box.
Someone mentioned using the Zero adapter for using these public stations but again they assumed people use them as if they were their personal garage. They're not. Most are time limited to 4h which is not enough to charge using any of the Zero's built-in chargers on any model.
It seems there is a huge mismatch in how the US users think the rest of the world works and the other way around as well. My point is if Zero is making this same mistake, they simply won't be able to grab the market. My original point was whether this is deliberate or not. It may well be that they don't want to create commuter models that are appealing for the Eurasian market because they wouldn't be able to service those bikes, for example. Who knows.
I do think a non profitable investor dependent company at their stage should focus on growth by creating an appealing product first. The domestic market isn't big enough for them to compete with the big players who are about to join in.
It's ok that we all disagree, but I think it's important to clarify what the reality is in each place for an informed discussion.
It's not that dire. Any of the FST platform bikes(SR/F, SR/S) will charge fully in less than 4 hours. With a charge tank they can even finish in just over an hour. And the Europeans get three phase charging, you guys have a ton of high amperage level 2 stations around.
The FX and S are old designs, at a lower price point. I'd almost say the S is effectively replaced by the SR/F,SR/S in every way except price and weight.
They have an appealing product, but they can't give away the farm. I agree that it'd be awesome to have fast charging, large batteries, low weight, and low prices. But you can't have it all.
I'm sure the technology developed for the FST platform(faster chargers, etc.) will come to the cheaper bikes eventually.
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I actually don't disagree with you, but show me a comparable bike in another brand with the charger you seek. The $20K+ Energica, HD and Zeros don't count. I'd be interested in one too. 8)
Just to clarify, what I'm seeking isn't cheap DC fast charging. That's a few years off no doubt. My pain comes from not being able to use up to 3.3kw on the built-in chargers of any model. I have a hard time believing it would be that much more expensive than the 1.5kw ones on the existing S,DS lines and the 650w on the FX(s).
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Because that's far less convenient and much more expensive than plugging in when you just get off the bike. It requires a big, heavy charger, or an expensive battery pack, and also requires an expensive charging station.
The ability to charge in an hour is something that more than doubles the cost of these bottom end city bikes.
It would be awesome if there were 100v dc chargers on every corner to charge up micro mobility but there aren't.
-Crissa
It doesn't require an expensive battery pack. It requires the same battery pack that's already on the bike. The big heavy charger, in Europe, is literally in every corner. I'm not talking about newer dc rapid chargers. Public level 2 fast charging in Eurasia is how the vast majority of people get by. They're everywhere and my whole point is a lot more people would buy Zero bikes if they supported fast charging on the commuter oriented models (FXS, S) out of the box.
Someone mentioned using the Zero adapter for using these public stations but again they assumed people use them as if they were their personal garage. They're not. Most are time limited to 4h which is not enough to charge using any of the Zero's built-in chargers on any model.
It seems there is a huge mismatch in how the US users think the rest of the world works and the other way around as well. My point is if Zero is making this same mistake, they simply won't be able to grab the market. My original point was whether this is deliberate or not. It may well be that they don't want to create commuter models that are appealing for the Eurasian market because they wouldn't be able to service those bikes, for example. Who knows.
I do think a non profitable investor dependent company at their stage should focus on growth by creating an appealing product first. The domestic market isn't big enough for them to compete with the big players who are about to join in.
It's ok that we all disagree, but I think it's important to clarify what the reality is in each place for an informed discussion.
It's not that dire. Any of the FST platform bikes(SR/F, SR/S) will charge fully in less than 4 hours. With a charge tank they can even finish in just over an hour. And the Europeans get three phase charging, you guys have a ton of high amperage level 2 stations around.
The FX and S are old designs, at a lower price point. I'd almost say the S is effectively replaced by the SR/F,SR/S in every way except price and weight.
They have an appealing product, but they can't give away the farm. I agree that it'd be awesome to have fast charging, large batteries, low weight, and low prices. But you can't have it all.
I'm sure the technology developed for the FST platform(faster chargers, etc.) will come to the cheaper bikes eventually.
While thats true, those bikes cost >20k which makes them truly out of reach for any rational person looking for a commuter bike. Also you're looking at multi thousand dollar premiums for any SR/[S|F] model in the UK for example. I don't know anyone who would consider any of those bikes a rational choice for commuting, whether they can afford them or not.
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Well to be fair, KTM is a European company and they released the EX-C Freeride without any 120v support. :P Of course, it only has an external charger too. That thing doesn't look light, so they discovered the same constraint.
Perhaps what you want simply doesn't exist yet? Believe me, we all want faster charging.
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Well to be fair, KTM is a European company and they released the EX-C Freeride without any 120v support. :P Of course, it only has an external charger too. That thing doesn't look light, so they discovered the same constraint.
Perhaps what you want simply doesn't exist yet? Believe me, we all want faster charging.
I think they made the same mistake which is probably why it didn't sell that much. Also, even if it was an attractive bike for comfortable commuting (the bike is really tall), an external charger simply doesn't cut it. There's a lesson to be learned there as well.
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It sounds like you're looking for an S with a charge tank.
I see 11490 pounds for a base S 7.2 in the UK. So maybe 13k pounds with charge tank which would give a charge times of about 1.5 hours from empty.
Unfortunately we're not at the point where it's like filing up your gas tank. Even with DCFC. And a gas bike will continue to be cheaper all around
Maybe if Zero could get a massive cash influx ala Tesla, and massively expand production, they could lower prices to be on par with gas. The Tesla Model 3 hasn't gotten there either though, with a 36k starting price, so I'm skeptical.
I'm impressed with how far they've gotten at the size they're at. They've certainly outlived a lot of their competitors.
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It doesn't require an expensive battery pack. It requires the same battery pack that's already on the bike.
The battery pack on the Zeros is not compatible with DC CCS charging.
If you want there to be no heavy AC charger, this is what we need.
The big heavy charger, in Europe, is literally in every corner.
No, it has access to more AC wattage. That AC wattage literally requires a physically bigger charger. That's your first complaint.
Either people can plug in, or they can't. Can they, or can they not? The on board charger is compatible with level 2 charging with the proper cable. It's just a dumb cable.
-Crissa
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It sounds like you're looking for an S with a charge tank.
I see 11490 pounds for a base S 7.2 in the UK. So maybe 13k pounds with charge tank which would give a charge times of about 1.5 hours from empty.
Was just coming here to say that. You can order a 7.2kw S with a 6.6kw chargetank. However with the x / s platform, even charging at .6C heats the battery up. The charge tank would put you right at about an hour for a full charge if the battery isnt heat soaked.
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It doesn't require an expensive battery pack. It requires the same battery pack that's already on the bike.
The battery pack on the Zeros is not compatible with DC CCS charging.
If you want there to be no heavy AC charger, this is what we need.
The big heavy charger, in Europe, is literally in every corner.
No, it has access to more AC wattage. That AC wattage literally requires a physically bigger charger. That's your first complaint.
Either people can plug in, or they can't. Can they, or can they not? The on board charger is compatible with level 2 charging with the proper cable. It's just a dumb cable.
-Crissa
I wasn't talking about DC charging, I was talking about AC charging faster than 650w on the FXS and 1.5kw on the S lines. Plugging in to a public level 2 station with the adapter is still going to go through the slow built-in charger.
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It sounds like you're looking for an S with a charge tank.
I see 11490 pounds for a base S 7.2 in the UK. So maybe 13k pounds with charge tank which would give a charge times of about 1.5 hours from empty.
Was just coming here to say that. You can order a 7.2kw S with a 6.6kw chargetank. However with the x / s platform, even charging at .6C heats the battery up. The charge tank would put you right at about an hour for a full charge if the battery isnt heat soaked.
This is true and is what I ended up doing, but when looking at the elcon/etc superchargers it clearly means it's possible to have 3.3kw charging on a very low size and cost when compared to the built-in ones on either model.
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I wasn't talking about DC charging, I was talking about AC charging faster than 650w on the FXS and 1.5kw on the S lines. Plugging in to a public level 2 station with the adapter is still going to go through the slow built-in charger.
Then you want them to put the physically much larger, much heavier, and cost a third what the bike does... To lower the reliability of the bike because the battery doesn't like to be fast charged every day.
And if they have a plug on the street... Why can't they charge during the night or their work day? Who is going to take an hour or two out of their commute to charge elsewhere?
Either they have access to charging (you said they do and don't) or they don't. Either you want a bike that's light and cheap or you don't.
You don't get to have these two things. The AC charger is bulky, weighty, and expensive. The DC compatible battery is expensive and heavier and the chargers are also expensive and off board.
Zero cannot change the laws of physics to give you an FX form factor with an S charge tank for daily charging at the size and price point anywhere near what they're currently at.
-Crissa
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At least here in the UK those that choose to ride are typically those that also either have a garage or can park the bike right in front of their house, on a drive way or the top of their front garden. Especially those that are will to spend in the neighbourhood of £10k for a bike. Those that would have to resort to street parking, for example if they live in a flat, also tend to be poorer, and those that aren't choose to rent a garage a short walk from their home.
I live in London. The vast majority of houses here and in other european/asian cities - where a majority of potential customers exist - have neither a front porch, a garden or a garage. Most high paying jobs are in cities as well, which is also why most people who can afford a 10k bike live there. Even areas with dedicated parking don't have electricity much less infrastructure to charge a bike for 8h or more.
The fact is, there is a gigantic market for these bikes and they'd sell like hot pancakes if they were compatible with the infrastructure and city layouts of europe and Asia where a majority of people live in cities and have no private parking spaces regardless of how wealthy they are.
Plenty of houses in London have front gardens, or at least a paved area between the front of the house and the path. Not as big as we have closer to the countryside but large enough for a bike to fit in. Unless you're talking about the City or just outside it, in which case it's such a comparatively small area it's not worth catering to that minority.
If I didn't have the ability to charge at home I probably wouldn't have an electric bike unless it could charge in half an hour or less, and even that would be a pain. I don't want to have to go out every weekend and spend an hour or more of my time waiting for the bike to charge, especially if it's cold or raining. Being able to just go out the front of my house and spend a couple minutes plugging my bike in, not even needing to get fully dressed, and then going back in to carry on doing whatever it is I was doing is a huge convenience.
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At least here in the UK those that choose to ride are typically those that also either have a garage or can park the bike right in front of their house, on a drive way or the top of their front garden. Especially those that are will to spend in the neighbourhood of £10k for a bike. Those that would have to resort to street parking, for example if they live in a flat, also tend to be poorer, and those that aren't choose to rent a garage a short walk from their home.
I live in London. The vast majority of houses here and in other european/asian cities - where a majority of potential customers exist - have neither a front porch, a garden or a garage. Most high paying jobs are in cities as well, which is also why most people who can afford a 10k bike live there. Even areas with dedicated parking don't have electricity much less infrastructure to charge a bike for 8h or more.
The fact is, there is a gigantic market for these bikes and they'd sell like hot pancakes if they were compatible with the infrastructure and city layouts of europe and Asia where a majority of people live in cities and have no private parking spaces regardless of how wealthy they are.
Plenty of houses in London have front gardens, or at least a paved area between the front of the house and the path. Not as big as we have closer to the countryside but large enough for a bike to fit in. Unless you're talking about the City or just outside it, in which case it's such a comparatively small area it's not worth catering to that minority.
If I didn't have the ability to charge at home I probably wouldn't have an electric bike unless it could charge in half an hour or less, and even that would be a pain. I don't want to have to go out every weekend and spend an hour or more of my time waiting for the bike to charge, especially if it's cold or raining. Being able to just go out the front of my house and spend a couple minutes plugging my bike in, not even needing to get fully dressed, and then going back in to carry on doing whatever it is I was doing is a huge convenience.
We have different experiences in London. I see plenty of houses without any space for a bike, in fact they are the majority in every borough i've ever been in. Plenty have some sort of back garden but very few have space for a bike in front. In any case, population densities clearly mean the vast majority of people don't have access to these. Whomever caters for these people first, captures a huge market.
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At least here in the UK those that choose to ride are typically those that also either have a garage or can park the bike right in front of their house, on a drive way or the top of their front garden. Especially those that are will to spend in the neighbourhood of £10k for a bike. Those that would have to resort to street parking, for example if they live in a flat, also tend to be poorer, and those that aren't choose to rent a garage a short walk from their home.
I live in London. The vast majority of houses here and in other european/asian cities - where a majority of potential customers exist - have neither a front porch, a garden or a garage. Most high paying jobs are in cities as well, which is also why most people who can afford a 10k bike live there. Even areas with dedicated parking don't have electricity much less infrastructure to charge a bike for 8h or more.
The fact is, there is a gigantic market for these bikes and they'd sell like hot pancakes if they were compatible with the infrastructure and city layouts of europe and Asia where a majority of people live in cities and have no private parking spaces regardless of how wealthy they are.
Plenty of houses in London have front gardens, or at least a paved area between the front of the house and the path. Not as big as we have closer to the countryside but large enough for a bike to fit in. Unless you're talking about the City or just outside it, in which case it's such a comparatively small area it's not worth catering to that minority.
If I didn't have the ability to charge at home I probably wouldn't have an electric bike unless it could charge in half an hour or less, and even that would be a pain. I don't want to have to go out every weekend and spend an hour or more of my time waiting for the bike to charge, especially if it's cold or raining. Being able to just go out the front of my house and spend a couple minutes plugging my bike in, not even needing to get fully dressed, and then going back in to carry on doing whatever it is I was doing is a huge convenience.
We have different experiences in London. I see plenty of houses without any space for a bike, in fact they are the majority in every borough i've ever been in. Plenty have some sort of back garden but very few have space for a bike in front. In any case, population densities clearly mean the vast majority of people don't have access to these. Whomever caters for these people first, captures a huge market.
It seems like you just need to travel more than a few miles from your house. I've literally spent the last 10 minutes or so dropping into random places around London on Google Street View and pretty much every house has room to put a bike outside. The exceptions are flats, right outside or inside the City where the footpath is literally on your door step, and house that have a basement apartment underneath them. Those are a very small minority of the county, never mind the entire country.
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It seems like you just need to travel more than a few miles from your house. I've literally spent the last 10 minutes or so dropping into random places around London on Google Street View and pretty much every house has room to put a bike outside. The exceptions are flats, right outside or inside the City where the footpath is literally on your door step, and house that have a basement apartment underneath them. Those are a very small minority of the county, never mind the entire country.
Nah, the official numbers say an average of 44% of housing across London is houses. That means 66% flats. And not all those houses have front porches. Many, if not the majority, due to architectural styling have thin front areas mainly occupied by bushes/trees or no space at all.
https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/housing_in_london_2019.pdf
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Just because 66% are flats doesn't mean they're all without stoops or bike parking.
But that doesn't change the fact that Zero can't make the chargers faster, smaller, and batteries more reliable to mimic gasoline.
-Crissa
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Just because 66% are flats doesn't mean they're all without stoops or bike parking.
But that doesn't change the fact that Zero can't make the chargers faster, smaller, and batteries more reliable to mimic gasoline.
-Crissa
They can make them, they do make them. Just don't make them available for all bikes. Third parties used to make them as well, very reliably and cheap, and Zero shut them down by preventing them from working without seriously compromising the bike's warranty and/or forcing firmware updates to use replacement onboard chargers.
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They can make them, they do make them. Just don't make them available for all bikes. Third parties used to make them as well, very reliably and cheap.
If that's so, could you link to these miracle products?
-Crissa
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It seems like you just need to travel more than a few miles from your house. I've literally spent the last 10 minutes or so dropping into random places around London on Google Street View and pretty much every house has room to put a bike outside. The exceptions are flats, right outside or inside the City where the footpath is literally on your door step, and house that have a basement apartment underneath them. Those are a very small minority of the county, never mind the entire country.
Nah, the official numbers say an average of 44% of housing across London is houses. That means 66% flats. And not all those houses have front porches. Many, if not the majority, due to architectural styling have thin front areas mainly occupied by bushes/trees or no space at all.
https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/housing_in_london_2019.pdf
And like I said, those that live in flats tend not to be the kind to spend ten grand or more on a bike. Yes the bikes aren't for everyone but the lack of DC fast charging isn't the only or most important thing preventing those people from owning one, there's also the issue of cost and not having someone to park the bike other than on the street. People who actually buy bikes, any type of bike, tend to have the means to be able to park the bike close to their house where it can be charged (or in a garage). People who buy expensive almost definitely do.
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They can make them, they do make them. Just don't make them available for all bikes. Third parties used to make them as well, very reliably and cheap.
If that's so, could you link to these miracle products?
-Crissa
Diginow, for example? Single 3.3kw chargers about the same size as the 650w one on the FXS.
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It seems like you just need to travel more than a few miles from your house. I've literally spent the last 10 minutes or so dropping into random places around London on Google Street View and pretty much every house has room to put a bike outside. The exceptions are flats, right outside or inside the City where the footpath is literally on your door step, and house that have a basement apartment underneath them. Those are a very small minority of the county, never mind the entire country.
Nah, the official numbers say an average of 44% of housing across London is houses. That means 66% flats. And not all those houses have front porches. Many, if not the majority, due to architectural styling have thin front areas mainly occupied by bushes/trees or no space at all.
https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/housing_in_london_2019.pdf
And like I said, those that live in flats tend not to be the kind to spend ten grand or more on a bike. Yes the bikes aren't for everyone but the lack of DC fast charging isn't the only or most important thing preventing those people from owning one, there's also the issue of cost and not having someone to park the bike other than on the street. People who actually buy bikes, any type of bike, tend to have the means to be able to park the bike close to their house where it can be charged (or in a garage). People who buy expensive almost definitely do.
There are many reasons why someone might choose a flat over a house that have nothing to do with socio-economics. Also, there might have been a misunderstanding somewhere, I never argued for DC fast charging on these commuter bikes (FXS, S). That would be awesome, but all I asked was if someone knew why they used 650w and 1500w instead of up to 3.3kw on the built-in ac chargers.
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My original question was if someone knew why Zero opted to build their charging systems the way they did when they could have chosen something slightly different for a similar cost and that would make them appeakling to a much bigger market.
What I found out was that electric bike manufacturers are inadvertently gatekeeping and have convinced themselves that people who can't private park on a garage don't want to or can't afford to own a bike and shouldn't expect brands to have faster chargers as overnight 8h charging is enough for everyone. I'm confused. I understand that things might make sense for someone just the way they are but why deny that something else might be useful for a use case that's not your own?
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It seems like you just need to travel more than a few miles from your house. I've literally spent the last 10 minutes or so dropping into random places around London on Google Street View and pretty much every house has room to put a bike outside. The exceptions are flats, right outside or inside the City where the footpath is literally on your door step, and house that have a basement apartment underneath them. Those are a very small minority of the county, never mind the entire country.
Nah, the official numbers say an average of 44% of housing across London is houses. That means 66% flats. And not all those houses have front porches. Many, if not the majority, due to architectural styling have thin front areas mainly occupied by bushes/trees or no space at all.
https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/housing_in_london_2019.pdf
And like I said, those that live in flats tend not to be the kind to spend ten grand or more on a bike. Yes the bikes aren't for everyone but the lack of DC fast charging isn't the only or most important thing preventing those people from owning one, there's also the issue of cost and not having someone to park the bike other than on the street. People who actually buy bikes, any type of bike, tend to have the means to be able to park the bike close to their house where it can be charged (or in a garage). People who buy expensive almost definitely do.
There are many reasons why someone might choose a flat over a house that have nothing to do with socio-economics. Also, there might have been a misunderstanding somewhere, I never argued for DC fast charging on these commuter bikes (FXS, S). That would be awesome, but all I asked was if someone knew why they used 650w and 1500w instead of up to 3.3kw on the built-in ac chargers.
DC or just faster AC, neither is going to secure many sales for the reason that you're imagining. Sure there are some people who live in flats who also have the money for an expensive bike but don't have a garage to charge in, but they are a minority. The majority of bike owners, especially those who buy expensive bikes, have a means to charge the bike at or close to home over a period of many hours. It's as simple as that.
Zero caters to the home chargers, of which there are many, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you want something else then get something else, like an Energica, or a Livewire, or the Fuell Fllow when/if that comes out, or a Damon, or a Lightning, or get one of the many bikes with a removable battery and bring it indoors to charge.
As for why they're not 3.3kW, size, weight, cost, potentially heat output as the chargers are passively cooled and put most of the waste heat into the battery casing.
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Wow, OK.
This isn't rocket science. Most of the S/DS/FX whatever were designed in 2013 for release in 2014. They chose what would fit and what was affordable at the time. They didn't have Diginows then, and the chargers were not as powerful and small. Level 2 charging wasn't nearly as common. By providing Level 1, they gave everyone a chance to own the bike.
Level 2 charging became far more common, and they added 3kW charge tanks as an option in 2017 for all bikes except the FX. Because people wanted faster charging and stations were expanding. In 2018 they took advantage of faster/denser chargers and upped it to 6kW for the same price and form factor.
In 2019 they released the FST bikes with 3kW and 6kW FST charging standard on the bike. And a host of new features. Interesting to me was that they did not use the Diginow chargers, but I suspect they must have run into FCC/regulatory issues, since they're essentially standard Chinese parts with Brandon's controller FW.
Rumors abound, but there's a DSR/X and FX/E coming soon, I'd be surprised if they didn't build off the new FST platform and probably have LV2 charging integrated.
I wouldn't be surprised if they also released a DCFC tank for the FST plaform too, maybe with a speed somewhat above 12kW. Zero likes modularity, incremental improvements, and accessory revenue.
I personally do not think people will buy electric bikes without a place to charge them in/outside their home. I do not like waiting 30m-1hr for charging every day at a charge station. The technology for 5 min refills like a gasser is just not there. It's a limitation of the electric vehicle category itself.
Could they put a faster charger on the FX today? Sure. Would they bump up the price about 1k? Probably. The FX is the cheapest/lightest electric motorcycle in the field today that's not a fully Chinese bike with questionable specs and a nonexistent dealer network. It's not trying to be a medium range commuter, it's trying to be a cheap, overnight charging, dirt capable fun bike.
Wouldn't most of the people in the center of London take public transit anyway?
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It seems like you just need to travel more than a few miles from your house. I've literally spent the last 10 minutes or so dropping into random places around London on Google Street View and pretty much every house has room to put a bike outside. The exceptions are flats, right outside or inside the City where the footpath is literally on your door step, and house that have a basement apartment underneath them. Those are a very small minority of the county, never mind the entire country.
Nah, the official numbers say an average of 44% of housing across London is houses. That means 66% flats. And not all those houses have front porches. Many, if not the majority, due to architectural styling have thin front areas mainly occupied by bushes/trees or no space at all.
https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/housing_in_london_2019.pdf
And like I said, those that live in flats tend not to be the kind to spend ten grand or more on a bike. Yes the bikes aren't for everyone but the lack of DC fast charging isn't the only or most important thing preventing those people from owning one, there's also the issue of cost and not having someone to park the bike other than on the street. People who actually buy bikes, any type of bike, tend to have the means to be able to park the bike close to their house where it can be charged (or in a garage). People who buy expensive almost definitely do.
There are many reasons why someone might choose a flat over a house that have nothing to do with socio-economics. Also, there might have been a misunderstanding somewhere, I never argued for DC fast charging on these commuter bikes (FXS, S). That would be awesome, but all I asked was if someone knew why they used 650w and 1500w instead of up to 3.3kw on the built-in ac chargers.
DC or just faster AC, neither is going to secure many sales for the reason that you're imagining. Sure there are some people who live in flats who also have the money for an expensive bike but don't have a garage to charge in, but they are a minority. The majority of bike owners, especially those who buy expensive bikes, have a means to charge the bike at or close to home over a period of many hours. It's as simple as that.
Zero caters to the home chargers, of which there are many, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you want something else then get something else, like an Energica, or a Livewire, or the Fuell Fllow when/if that comes out, or a Damon, or a Lightning, or get one of the many bikes with a removable battery and bring it indoors to charge.
As for why they're not 3.3kW, size, weight, cost, potentially heat output as the chargers are passively cooled and put most of the waste heat into the battery casing.
"The majority of bike owners, especially those who buy expensive bikes, have a means to charge the bike at or close to home over a period of many hours. It's as simple as that. " Im not arguing that this isn't true, I'm saying there are people - a lot of them - who would own a bike if they could charge it *slightly* faster.
I don't understand why having a slightly faster built-in charger would mean not catering for home chargers? And don't understand why people assume there isn't a market for a different use case than their own.
Would you be upset if Zero upgraded their built-in chargers on all bikes to 3.3kw or 6.6kw max? I can't see how that would break someone's ability to charge overnight if they can/want to.
Anyway, it seems people are uncomfortable withe the thought of Zero catering people they wrongly perceive as being on a lower socio-economic status which is certainly an unexpected result.
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I personally do not think people will buy electric bikes without a place to charge them in/outside their home. I do not like waiting 30m-1hr for charging every day at a charge station. The technology for 5 min refills like a gasser is just not there. It's a limitation of the electric vehicle category itself.
I wouldn't find that particularly pleasant either, but people found ways of fitting those charge times into their routine as part of driving EV cars for example. I go for a walk in the park with the kids on weekends, could easily leave it charging it then for eample. Or while shopping, or while at a museum.
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I personally do not think people will buy electric bikes without a place to charge them in/outside their home. I do not like waiting 30m-1hr for charging every day at a charge station. The technology for 5 min refills like a gasser is just not there. It's a limitation of the electric vehicle category itself.
I wouldn't find that particularly pleasant either, but people found ways of fitting those charge times into their routine as part of driving EV cars for example. I go for a walk in the park with the kids on weekends, could easily leave it charging it then for eample. Or while shopping, or while at a museum.
Also please note that my question wasn't specifically about faster level 2. Faster level 1 is all I'm wondering why the bikes don't have in 2020.
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I have bought 5 electric motorcycles over the past 11 years and have used them for commuting and now for typically 100-mile round trips, or less. For me, overnight charging in my garage is just what I need. Plus, when I visit a relative, I can always plug into their home outlet with an extension cord to give me plenty of extra charge to get home. I still think that most Zero sales are to commuters or public agencies and 1300 watt charging is fast enough for those customers. As has been mentioned before, most motorcycle enthusiasts that buy electric will also have at least one ICE motorcycle as a backup for longer trips. (Or in my case, 5 ICE motorcycles.) ;)
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I have bought 5 electric motorcycles over the past 11 years and have used them for commuting and now for typically 100-mile round trips, or less. For me, overnight charging in my garage is just what I need. Plus, when I visit a relative, I can always plug into their home outlet with an extension cord to give me plenty of extra charge to get home. I still think that most Zero sales are to commuters or public agencies and 1300 watt charging is fast enough for those customers. As has been mentioned before, most motorcycle enthusiasts that buy electric will also have at least one ICE motorcycle as a backup for longer trips. (Or in my case, 5 ICE motorcycles.) ;)
I know yours is the most common scenario, not arguing there. Just think other use cases have a potential to generate a lot more sales. Orders of magnitude more. Loads of people are buying electrics as their first bike either because they're young and it's their first one or because they would never have considered an ICE one but now that there's an alternative they're starting to ride. There are plenty of incentives these days that make motorcycles a lot more attractive than ever before. I think it's a mistake to ignore the change in demographics.
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"The majority of bike owners, especially those who buy expensive bikes, have a means to charge the bike at or close to home over a period of many hours. It's as simple as that. " Im not arguing that this isn't true, I'm saying there are people - a lot of them - who would own a bike if they could charge it *slightly* faster.
I don't understand why having a slightly faster built-in charger would mean not catering for home chargers? And don't understand why people assume there isn't a market for a different use case than their own.
Would you be upset if Zero upgraded their built-in chargers on all bikes to 3.3kw or 6.6kw max? I can't see how that would break someone's ability to charge overnight if they can/want to.
Anyway, it seems people are uncomfortable withe the thought of Zero catering people they wrongly perceive as being on a lower socio-economic status which is certainly an unexpected result.
I'd love a faster charger. I wasn't arguing against faster charging because it's obviously better, my argument was that faster charging really isn't going to sell many more bikes for the reasons that you give. Yes more people would buy them if they could charge faster when out riding but next to no-one is buying (or would buy) an electric bike without the ability to charge it at home. Doesn't matter if it's 8 hours or 1, it's a massive inconvenience to have to leave your home to charge. It's not like having a gas bike where you can pop into a station for 5 minutes on your way to where ever you're going.
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but next to no-one is buying (or would buy) an electric bike without the ability to charge it at home.
I completely agree, but feels like were going in circles now, perhaps I phrased it wrong. English is not my native language. If the built-in charger is 3.3kw instead of 1.5kw it doesn't mean you can't charge it at home. It just takes less time that's all...
- 15 amps on 120v = 1.8kw
- 15 amps on 240v = 3.6kw
This would be supply dependent, same charger.
Again, never argued against home charging level 1. Just asked why it itsn't faster.
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Diginow, for example? Single 3.3kw chargers about the same size as the 650w one on the FXS.
You do know Diginow is:
- Out of business
- Thousands of dollars
- Larger than the on board charger for the S-platform bikes (which is almost twice the size of the X-platform charger)
- Not more reliable
Also, you didn't link to them.
-Crissa
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I know nothing about the motorcycle market in the EU countries, but my observation is that the motorcycle market in general in the U.S. is not very strong when it comes to young people buying motorcycles for the first time unless they really need something for cheap transportation and then they will likely buy a used ICE. If there is any documentation that first time riders are buying freeway-legal electric motorcycles in the U.S. market I would like to hear about it. I am still mystified why my two granddaughters have no interesting driving a car, much less riding a motorcycle, even though my daughter and her husband own and ride 6 motorcycles, one of which is my old 2014 Zero S. ???
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I am still mystified why my two granddaughters have no interesting driving a car, much less riding a motorcycle, even though my daughter and her husband own and ride 6 motorcycles, one of which is my old 2014 Zero S. ???
That deserves its own thread.
-Crissa
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I guess you missed my post or didn't want to accept it. You can get a cord that lets you charge from a level 2 socket now.
The fact it's only pulling 650Ws don't matter if it's sitting there all night.
So can you make it work now with no house or garage? Yes
Would it be nice to be able to charge it faster? Yes
At a cost of $3500? Not for me and certainly not for poorer people.
Still is it likely that Zero will be coming out with a bike like your saying you want next year? I am guessing yes.
Really if you can't get "there" and back on a single 100% battery charge on a FXS you should get a bigger bike.
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I think an FX with a 3 or 6 kw charger would be awesome. It would fit all the uses I can't do with my S now.
But right now, that wouldn't be cheap, or as light as an FX, until they manage to make something that doesn't exist yet.
-Crissa
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The DeathFX and its 10kW of on board charging begs to differ
(http://i.imgur.com/j5eyXscl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/j5eyXsc)
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Diginow, for example? Single 3.3kw chargers about the same size as the 650w one on the FXS.
You do know Diginow is:
- Out of business
- Thousands of dollars
- Larger than the on board charger for the S-platform bikes (which is almost twice the size of the X-platform charger)
- Not more reliable
Also, you didn't link to them.
-Crissa
I don't think they're out of business, they just stopped selling those chargers as Zero made it very hard for third parties to reliably charge bikes. They don't cost more than the QuiQ external chargers that Zero sell added p to the same power. And there's literally videos of people on the internet replacing the S onboard charger with 3 diginow ones. They're not bigger. Literally 3 of them take up less space than the built-in one. Each of those 3 is 3.3kw.
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I guess you missed my post or didn't want to accept it. You can get a cord that lets you charge from a level 2 socket now.
The fact it's only pulling 650Ws don't matter if it's sitting there all night.
So can you make it work now with no house or garage? Yes
Would it be nice to be able to charge it faster? Yes
At a cost of $3500? Not for me and certainly not for poorer people.
Still is it likely that Zero will be coming out with a bike like your saying you want next year? I am guessing yes.
Really if you can't get "there" and back on a single 100% battery charge on a FXS you should get a bigger bike.
I think you missed where I said charging overnight isn't an option as there's time limits for public charging stations. It's happily pay that price for the option, in fact I did to get a charge tank on the S. I don't get why people here are so hostile to the fact that my use case is different. This is a different market. I'm not asking you to tell me how to make it work. It doesn't work. I'm asking why you think Zero hasn't updated the bikes to make them attractive here.
Instead, all I'm getting is people telling me I dont' need what I need because I should be ok with the US use-case. This is really weird. Anyway, abandoning this thread. Doesn't seem like there's an interest in a constructive discussion about how these bikes could own a lot more market share.
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I don't think they're out of business, they just stopped selling those chargers as Zero made it very hard for third parties to reliably charge bikes. They don't cost more than the QuiQ external chargers that Zero sell added p to the same power. And there's literally videos of people on the internet replacing the S onboard charger with 3 diginow ones. They're not bigger. Literally 3 of them take up less space than the built-in one. Each of those 3 is 3.3kw.
Diginow stopped selling them because they couldn't get them to work reliably, but it was through no fault of Zero. That they cost as much as a bunch of Deltas is irrelevant because you don't get a bunch of Deltas for free with your bike, it's an additional cost. And no they're not the same size, that's why Diginow also made an extended bellypan to fit them.
I don't get why people here are so hostile to the fact that my use case is different. This is a different market. I'm not asking you to tell me how to make it work. It doesn't work. I'm asking why you think Zero hasn't updated the bikes to make them attractive here.
Instead, all I'm getting is people telling me I dont' need what I need because I should be ok with the US use-case. This is really weird. Anyway, abandoning this thread. Doesn't seem like there's an interest in a constructive discussion about how these bikes could own a lot more market share.
No bike is perfect for everyone. Why should Zero increase the price and weight of their entire range of bikes just to cater to a minority? Instead, anyone in that minority can simply get a bike with a Charge Tank. You're not asking for a solution to a problem, you're asking for a specific product (a faster charging FX/S). It's as relevant as me asking why they don't make a 110hp SR? Because the SR/F exists. You want a faster SR? Buy an SR/F. You want a faster charging Zero? Buy one with a charge tank.
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No bike is perfect for everyone. Why should Zero increase the price and weight of their entire range of bikes just to cater to a minority? Instead, anyone in that minority can simply get a bike with a Charge Tank. You're not asking for a solution to a problem, you're asking for a specific product (a faster charging FX/S). It's as relevant as me asking why they don't make a 110hp SR? Because the SR/F exists. You want a faster SR? Buy an SR/F. You want a faster charging Zero? Buy one with a charge tank.
I never argued for what you're saying I did.
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Diginow stopped selling them because they couldn't get them to work reliably, but it was through no fault of Zero. That they cost as much as a bunch of Deltas is irrelevant because you don't get a bunch of Deltas for free with your bike, it's an additional cost. And no they're not the same size, that's why Diginow also made an extended bellypan to fit them.
I think they stopped for a variety of reasons, but the reliability reasons were stated to be isolation issues with some Zeros, but not all of them. Diginow is not selling them and is only minorly supporting them, however they are working on other projects (currently a product that basically uses your EV as a power wall). It is speculated that its the same isolation problem that is killing onboard chargers. FWIW a 3.3kw TC unit costs less than a 1kw deltaQ unit, however the 3.3kwTC units are not UL certified (I imagine that has some cost and demands a premium). The TC units are taller than the factory onboard charger which necessitated the bellypan.
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The DeathFX and its 10kW of on board charging begs to differ
That is so not in the same form factor! It Zero marketed that you'd excoriate them for wires exposed and the weird bump-out reducing offroad suspension travel ^-^
-Crissa
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Not able to support the markets they're in. Customer repair times are often measured in months, sometime years. Customer was in our shop today asking for our help with a Zero SR they bought in April or May 2019 that was out-of-commission since late May 2019. Got to back and while on the way to annual test the bike shut down again and wont restart. From what I understand its either bad software or controller... again. We gave him the number of the lawyer handling the class action, but I think he's going to suit in the UK.
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"Why is Zero ignoring the rest of the world"
The thread title should be "Why doesn't Zero redesign the FXS to charge faster?" Otherwise, you ignore that the international market is a big chunk of their business, and that only one feature of one model is bothering you.
"Zero is making a mistake"
Every option available to Zero is a mistake to some part of the market. The lowest end bike is supposed to have less features. It's safe to assume they leveraged all of their design and marketing capabilities to find a market niche where money can be made. The FXS still hits attractive performance and use cases while being somewhat affordable.
I wish my FX charged fast too, so I could take it to Santa Cruz or San Francisco and back without anxiety, plug searching, hours of plug time, $2500 worth of quick charging equipment in my top case, etc. But I realize that having a high wattage charger on board, which practically necessitates a J1772 receptacle also, might increase the price to a point where sales would drop dramatically. Pretty much everyone I talk to already cites price as the reason for not owning an FX. Personally I like the form factor of the FX enough that I accept its limitations instead of getting something else.
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No bike is perfect for everyone. Why should Zero increase the price and weight of their entire range of bikes just to cater to a minority? Instead, anyone in that minority can simply get a bike with a Charge Tank. You're not asking for a solution to a problem, you're asking for a specific product (a faster charging FX/S). It's as relevant as me asking why they don't make a 110hp SR? Because the SR/F exists. You want a faster SR? Buy an SR/F. You want a faster charging Zero? Buy one with a charge tank.
I never argued for what you're saying I did.
So what are you arguing for, what is it you want? Your original point was about people not buying an FXS because it didn't charge fast enough, because they'd have to charge away from home. You wanted it to have 6kW charging. You completely ignored that you can get 6kW charging on an S or DS, with a 7.2kWh model that will have you fully charged in about an hour at most (because you're not going to arrive at the charging station at 0%). You want that in an FXS? Too bad, that model is designed to be light and cheap.
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I think Zero is doing their best to give their customers what they think they want at a price that they think they can afford. I also suspect that they are focused more on selling motorcycles to customers who do not already own a Zero so as to expand their market base. While faster charging is certainly something useful, most people new to the EV scene are likely to be more comfortable with plugging into 120V L1 outlets, at least in the U.S. of course.
I also wonder how long it takes Zero to develop an entirely new model? Perhaps several years? That could explain why their bikes seem to be geared more to the U.S. market right now. But with their sales during the past couple of years being really strong in the EU, perhaps we will see new models in the future more focused on what that market demands.
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I think they said it took 3-5 years to design the SR/F and SR/S bikes. And I'd say they considered the EU market by setting up the Mennekes three phase charge solution. While it's not perfect for the UK, the mainland seems to be enjoying it.
Beyond charging, I don't think what the EU wants is all that different than what the US wants. Faster, cheaper, lighter, more reliable, faster charging, and longer range. All at the same time.
Some people would like the FX to charge faster, and that could be done, but right know that's a tradeoff with weight, price, and size being negatively affected.
Look how far electric motorcycles have come since 2013 when they launched the FX. Can you imagine what we'll have in another eight years?
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Not able to support the markets they're in. Customer repair times are often measured in months, sometime years. Customer was in our shop today asking for our help with a Zero SR they bought in April or May 2019 that was out-of-commission since late May 2019. Got to back and while on the way to annual test the bike shut down again and wont restart. From what I understand its either bad software or controller... again. We gave him the number of the lawyer handling the class action, but I think he's going to suit in the UK.
What kind of BS is this?
There have been far too many good examples of "Zero" doing a great job for customers, myself included to waste peoples time and money and maybe killing the company so they never get a fix all while making some bottom feeding lawyer a bunch of money.
I've had too many people on here refusing to believe their "best friend" dealer shop isn't really working hard to fix their bike. The problem must be mean old Zero has their arms crossed and refuses to help.
In the end they almost always end up going with the fantastic advice of trading in that weird electric thing ( for pennies on the dollar for what they paid) and getting a good old gas bike.
Then they will have to bring it in regularly to have constant fixes, I meant to say "routine maintenance" in their service center. Only for a few years though as they also tell everyone they need to do that bad trade in deal again on another new bike.
The SR should have been shipped back to Zero and let them fix it but I bet the first dealer wanted to keep the tab running at their shop.
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If I ever hear a tech saying 'bad software or controller... again' I know not to trust that tech.
It doesn't matter if it's a PC or a motorbike.
-Crissa
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I guess you missed my post or didn't want to accept it. You can get a cord that lets you charge from a level 2 socket now.
The fact it's only pulling 650Ws don't matter if it's sitting there all night.
So can you make it work now with no house or garage? Yes
Would it be nice to be able to charge it faster? Yes
At a cost of $3500? Not for me and certainly not for poorer people.
Still is it likely that Zero will be coming out with a bike like your saying you want next year? I am guessing yes.
Really if you can't get "there" and back on a single 100% battery charge on a FXS you should get a bigger bike.
I think you missed where I said charging overnight isn't an option as there's time limits for public charging stations. It's happily pay that price for the option, in fact I did to get a charge tank on the S. I don't get why people here are so hostile to the fact that my use case is different. This is a different market. I'm not asking you to tell me how to make it work. It doesn't work. I'm asking why you think Zero hasn't updated the bikes to make them attractive here.
Instead, all I'm getting is people telling me I dont' need what I need because I should be ok with the US use-case. This is really weird. Anyway, abandoning this thread. Doesn't seem like there's an interest in a constructive discussion about how these bikes could own a lot more market share.
Let me take a stab at it; I'm sympathetic, as I live in a far more crowded country than the UK -- virtually no detached houses. It's a very big problem for car EV adoption.
You shouldn't think of Zero as a motorcycle company like BMW or Triumph, and certainly not like Yamaha or Honda. They're essentially a small startup, and have very little bandwidth to do engineering or testing. There's also likely a supply chain volume issue: You need decent production volumes to get very good prices from suppliers. A 3.3kW charger is excellent for Europe (and would be for me, in a 240V AC country), but would be serious overkill in the US, in addition to the engineering reasons Crissa brought up. To offer it on Euro/UK models, it's quite possible Zero would need to pay a lot more per charger for the existing US ones, because they'd be splitting the order.
You may not realize this, but Zero only makes a 4-digit number of bikes per year (low 4 digit, as far as anyone knows). It's only been several years since Zero was even able to get Showa, Pirelli & Bosch to sell them components -- they were too small previously.
Zero is constantly struggling with handling overseas importers -- I think they went through two in Australia (and there isn't a current one), they had one here in Israel who quarreled with them, they canceled the agency agreement and for over a year there was no support for ~200 local owners (they recently settled on a new one). This subforum has lots of bad storie about the difficulty of long-distance support for a complex product by a small product.
Even on the newest platform with the most expensive bikes, the SR/F & SR/S, Zero still doesn't wire the two chargers differently for the UK which would have allowed >3.3kW charging from 7kW chargers -- they hobble UK buyers so as not to need a different version for the UK as for the rest of the EU, see this thread (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9028.msg77649#msg77649).
The e-motorcycle market (aside from the 50cc equivalent e-scooter which is already large in Asia) isn't going to get large anytime soon; range is simply insufficient for sport-touring, touring or adventure touring, which leaves track bikes and commuting -- but most commuting can be handled on e-bicycles or e-mopeds / e-scooters.
Zero has to be very careful so they won't suffer the fate of Brammo, Alta, Mission Motors etc.
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And it's not like Zero isn't trying: Their cooperation with companies like Exro may give them the circuitry to bring out some wizardry that lets them have cheap, reliable configurable chargers or batteries that charge differently, or enhance their performance, like the demo with the motor with multiple coil setups.
It's exciting stuff. But it takes time, and they have to be careful how much of what they order.
They can't escape that the biggest advantage of the electric motorcycle is that it never, ever needs to go somewhere else to charge, get fuel or oil. They're super self-contained. That is their one big thing.
-Crissa
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They can't escape that the biggest advantage of the electric motorcycle is that it never, ever needs to go somewhere else to charge, get fuel or oil. They're super self-contained. That is their one big thing.
Isn't that true with all BEVs?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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They can't escape that the biggest advantage of the electric motorcycle is that it never, ever needs to go somewhere else to charge, get fuel or oil. They're super self-contained. That is their one big thing.
Isn't that true with all BEVs?
Yes?
But you don't buy a car when you want a motorcycle.
-Crissa
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Wavelet...
THIS IS PATENTLY FALSE
" Zero is constantly struggling with handling overseas importers -- I think they went through two in Australia (and there isn't a current one), they had one here in Israel who quarreled with them, they canceled the agency agreement and for over a year there was no support for ~200 local owners (they recently settled on a new one). "
NOT at all true. IMPORTERS, DEALERS are constantly struggling to get ZERO to fix outright defective bikes. AUTO ELECTRIC did not quarrel with ZERO. Auto Electric politely asked ZERO to abide by the law and their warranty obligations. ZERO telling a customer to bury a year old FX that BURST INTO FLAMES while being ridden is one of hundreds of examples.
Photos available. There's also a ZERO that caught fire on Highway 1, batteries that alighted in a shed, 20+ motor failures and over 120 battery replacements... these are the results of DEFECTS, not "support" issues.
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You can find a picture of every kind of vehicle catching fire, from Teslas to gas bikes to Zeros. Any high energy vehicle/battery can do that in adverse conditions.
Zero would have told you(as the old distributor/dealer) to properly recycle defective batteries. They even pay for the recycling cost. I've done it quite a few times now. If the owner takes the batteries and buries them, that's on the distributor or the owner. Please stop lying.
Dealers are not really struggling to fix bikes, and I've seen no evidence of any defects outside of the obvious warranty campaigns. And you have provided none. 2020 has been a bit harder with a pandemic and wildfires almost burning down HQ, but we continue to receive the same support we always have.
It certainly didn't stop Zero from partnering with a larger distributor in Israel. It's unlikely Zero will ever tell us why they terminated their relationship with Auto Electric, but it seems you're a very unreliable source of information.
It could just as easily be that Auto Electric was engaged in fraud, and Zero had enough. But I have Zero evidence of that. I only have rumors and the fact that they terminated the relationship before they had a replacement lined up.
And the fact you're waging a one man war to try to discredit Zero in every way possible, with zero evidence. No real lawsuits, no class actions, no hordes of angry Israeli Zero owners.
They're hardly perfect bikes, but they continue to improve at a fairly rapid pace.
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Wavelet...
THIS IS PATENTLY FALSE
" Zero is constantly struggling with handling overseas importers -- I think they went through two in Australia (and there isn't a current one), they had one here in Israel who quarreled with them, they canceled the agency agreement and for over a year there was no support for ~200 local owners (they recently settled on a new one). "
NOT at all true. IMPORTERS, DEALERS are constantly struggling to get ZERO to fix outright defective bikes. AUTO ELECTRIC did not quarrel with ZERO. Auto Electric politely asked ZERO to abide by the law and their warranty obligations. ZERO telling a customer to bury a year old FX that BURST INTO FLAMES while being ridden is one of hundreds of examples.
Photos available. There's also a ZERO that caught fire on Highway 1, batteries that alighted in a shed, 20+ motor failures and over 120 battery replacements... these are the results of DEFECTS, not "support" issues.
So, you didn't quarrel with them? BYO term then. It doesn't matter -- "quarrel" doesn't make any judgements as to why or who's responsible.
I've no idea what exactly transpired, and have no dog in this fight.
I don't and didn't own a Zero, or work for the new importer, and never had any bike-specific interaction with you (beyond talking to you briefly on the phone a few years ago to get more information on what level of support owners of the bikes could expect in the country, when you first started importing them. I appreciate it can't have been easy to get approval from Zero to import the bikes with our tiny market, and to homologate them with our primitive and bike-hostile Ministry of Transportation)
However, over half your posts in this forum, in multiple threads, are serious accusations against Zero, that frequently have nothing to do with the subject of the thread.
You have never, not once AFAIR, substantiated these accusations, despite at least a dozen requests to do so.
Not to mention, many of the accusations are completely hyperbolic.
ZERO telling a customer to bury a year old FX that BURST INTO FLAMES while being ridden is one of hundreds of examples
Hundreds of examples in Israel alone? Only about 200 Zeroes bikes were ever sold here. Every single one was defective?
And
photos available
Really? So how come you never posted one here, despite many requests?
It's getting really, really, really tiresome, amounts to threadcrapping, and I don't understand what you think you get out of it. You've been told by multiple posters here that they don't & won't take you seriously without evidence.
It's a big shame, because you clearly have a lot of experience with Zeros which could help many folks here, and when you do make substantive posts, they're to the point and useful.
f you have specific evidence for the numerous accusations, by all means give it -- you'd be doing a lot of people an important service, warning them away from life-endangering and/or inherently defective, expensive, products.
If you don't, or don't / can't give it, for whatever reason, STFU already.
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Well, there are multiple instances of examples of Zero dealership support on this very forum and tbh it doesn't look great. Direct support from a niche enthusiast manufacturer's engineers is worth gold, and Zero appears to somehow have erected a cold corporate wall of Nope. Energica on the other hand have a mole or two in here which is very shrewd of them. It's little things like that that form the opinions of potential customers.
Cas :)
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Well lets look at what a dealership should be like by going to one of if not the best Zero dealerships, Hollywood Electrics.
First you know Harlan and his guys know these bikes backwards and forwards. He helped make the SRs and his shop has made modifications and accessories exclusively for these bikes.
Zero knows HE knows what they are doing and HE knows what to ask or suggest to get an issue resolved.
Harlan is never going to shrug his shoulders and say I don't know what's wrong with it, screw this thing what you need is this Ducati over here.
That is what you will get from a lot of old school bike shops though. Not all of them for sure, as some of the techs see the future coming and embrace it while others want to keep the status quo.
My own experience was a bad battery that resulted in Zero shipping my bike across the country, replacing my battery, and shipping it back with a new charging cord thrown in and it didn't cost me a dime.
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Well lets look at what a dealership should be like by going to one of if not the best Zero dealerships, Hollywood Electrics.
First you know Harlan and his guys know these bikes backwards and forwards. He helped make the SRs and his shop has made modifications and accessories exclusively for these bikes.
Zero knows HE knows what they are doing and HE knows what to ask or suggest to get an issue resolved.
Harlan is never going to shrug his shoulders and say I don't know what's wrong with it, screw this thing what you need is this Ducati over here.
That is what you will get from a lot of old school bike shops though. Not all of them for sure, as some of the techs see the future coming and embrace it while others want to keep the status quo.
My own experience was a bad battery that resulted in Zero shipping my bike across the country, replacing my battery, and shipping it back with a new charging cord thrown in and it didn't cost me a dime.
Regarding Harlan and Hollywood Electrics: That is the difference between having an electric engineer own a motorcycle shop and having an appliance or furniture salesman owning a motorcycle shop. Especially one that sells and services electric motorcycles. ;)
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Unfortunately it doesn't play well with the narrative that EVs are zero-to-low maintenance devices which you just plug-n-play with, which is a major selling point in the EV world. People are wanting a thing that just goes and goes and needs nothing other than consumables replacing, not a thing that requires the wisdom of a single wise old sage that lives up the top of a mystic mountain to diagnose its many and frequently document major component failures.
Cas :)
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But no class of device never needs help. Even appliances in the kitchen. If your repair tech doesn't know their foibles, they won't repair it right the moment you get a tiny piece of ice or lint in a drain that makes it not work.
And bikes have lots more moving parts.
-Crissa
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It's generally not the moving parts that are breaking - it appears to be hugely expensive four figure repair parts that don't move, and when they break the bike is effectively a very expensive doorstop. It can't be swept under the carpet under the rose-tinted spectacles of EV fandom: it's a real problem, and it needs acknowledging, or it'll not be addressed, to the detriment of all.
Cas :)
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Diginow stopped selling them because they couldn't get them to work reliably, but it was through no fault of Zero. That they cost as much as a bunch of Deltas is irrelevant because you don't get a bunch of Deltas for free with your bike, it's an additional cost. And no they're not the same size, that's why Diginow also made an extended bellypan to fit them.
Jesus Christ, son. I started to do basic stupid math but then I had to stop because JESUS CHRIST, SON. ahahahahahhahahaha. Let's do some math, shall we, my little stripling? A Delta Q is 900W and costs $600. And is the size of a pie. Like a large pie. Let's stack Delta Qs together until they're about 10kW. Thankfully that's easy because 11 of them is 9.9kW and would be $6600. Then you'd have to invest in Y adapters to feed into the Aux charging port. My math says that would take .... 12 Y adapters. At what, $250 apiece is an additional $3000.
YEAH BUDDY. That's $9600. But you can't do that because the Aux port has a 100 amp fuse and you will blow it doing this. But I'm sure you already knew that. Tell me more about how our system works, though.
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YEAH BUDDY. That's $9600. But you can't do that because the Aux port has a 100 amp fuse and you will blow it doing this. But I'm sure you already knew that. Tell me more about how our system works, though.
Have the snark wires crossed now?
-Crissa
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Diginow stopped selling them because they couldn't get them to work reliably, but it was through no fault of Zero. That they cost as much as a bunch of Deltas is irrelevant because you don't get a bunch of Deltas for free with your bike, it's an additional cost. And no they're not the same size, that's why Diginow also made an extended bellypan to fit them.
Jesus Christ, son. I started to do basic stupid math but then I had to stop because JESUS CHRIST, SON. ahahahahahhahahaha. Let's do some math, shall we, my little stripling? A Delta Q is 900W and costs $600. And is the size of a pie. Like a large pie. Let's stack Delta Qs together until they're about 10kW. Thankfully that's easy because 11 of them is 9.9kW and would be $6600. Then you'd have to invest in Y adapters to feed into the Aux charging port. My math says that would take .... 12 Y adapters. At what, $250 apiece is an additional $3000.
YEAH BUDDY. That's $9600. But you can't do that because the Aux port has a 100 amp fuse and you will blow it doing this. But I'm sure you already knew that. Tell me more about how our system works, though.
Don't get pissy with me, I wasn't the one that said they cost the same as a bunch of Deltas. Presumably he was comparing the max allowed Deltas (four, for 4kW) combined with the OBC (for roughly 5.3kW) with the 6.6kW or whatever Diginow. I'm not going to bother double checking the pricing because I wasn't the one that brought it up and because you can't even buy Diginows anymore.
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These on board charger thingies... they're essentially AC->DC converters yes? I am a little bit surprised that they aren't considerably smaller and more efficient and more reliable than they currently are. This doesn't seem to be cutting-edge electronics. What gives?
Cas :)
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These on board charger thingies... they're essentially AC->DC converters yes?
No, they are switching power supplies with a very wide voltage range (90 to 250 VAC) with no increase in wattage as the voltage is increased, which is very tricky to do.
Otherwise, this would happen with a simple AC to DC conversion (such as with a linear power supply):
Zero's 1.3 KW OBC output rated charger, not counting the approximately 10% loss of efficiency to the output DC, with 120 VAC input:
Amps = voltage over resistance.
The AC input impedance will be a normal steady value in ohms, so this would happen if used with a linear power supply or even a switched-mode power supply with a design to NOT reduce the current as the voltage goes up:
A. 120 VAC input, 9 ohms impedance= 13.3 amp draw.
B. 240 VAC input , still 9 ohms impedance= so now it's a 26.6 amp draw.
In above:
A. 120 Volts times 13.3 amps=1,596 watts input (1.3 KW DC output, the rest in heat). OBC is happy.
B. 240 Volts times 26.6 amps=6,384 watts (the 1.3 KW output charger would get destroyed instantly). You can change energy, such as power (which is watts) but not reduce it. The extra power (watts) will be lost in heat and would normally destroy a 1.3 KW charger with the excessive heat. The charger would normally have to be rated for the much higher power or it would instantly get destroyed.
What the 1.3 KW Zero chargers (and the DeltaQ Chargers, as well as with the Harley LW) are designed to do is to reduce the current as the AC voltage is increased by very tricky circuity by reducing the time some of the charger circuits are allowed to work as the voltage is increased. Much more than a simple "AC to DC converter" which would only take a large transformer & rectifier and if done that way would be designed for a very narrow voltage range, such as perhaps 115 to 122 VAC, which is not even close to the wide range of 90 to 250 VAC.
The higher wattage chargers simply allow the power increase with voltage as then the more power is wanted. IOW, you want that 6,384 watts if you have a 6.3 KW charger when you're using a 240 VAC input.
If you look inside the OBC or any EV charger, you will see almost countless components. They are very complicated compared to a " AC->DC converter" which requires very few parts.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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These on board charger thingies... they're essentially AC->DC converters yes? I am a little bit surprised that they aren't considerably smaller and more efficient and more reliable than they currently are. This doesn't seem to be cutting-edge electronics. What gives?
Cas :)
One more thing. They ARE very efficient as is. Around 90%.
120 VAC input, 12 amps=1,440 watts AC input.
( or if 240 VAC input with 6.0 amps)
~1.3 KW DC output.
1,300 divided by 1, 400 watts:
Better than 90% efficiency.
To do that in the size and weight of the Zero OBC, and uncooled, I would consider to be very cutting edge technology. IMO, there is not a lot of room for improvement. IMO, only small improvements can be made from here.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Thanks DonTom. I wonder if there might not be some major advances in this particular aspect over the next few years, seeing as they do seem to be a fairly critical aspect for the success of EVs.
Cas :)
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Thanks DonTom. I wonder if there might not be some major advances in this particular aspect over the next few years, seeing as they do seem to be a fairly critical aspect for the success of EVs.
Cas :)
I think the rate of improvements will slow down. The 10% loss in heat doesn't leave a lot of room for large improvements. If they are made smaller, then they must be built to dissipate more heat for the size.
The perfect answer is to get as close to 100% efficiently so it won't get as hot. I just don't see a lot of room to work with there within that 10% loss in heat. 90% is quite efficient as is, considering the number of active components inside the charger that require energy.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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A small correction, according to the data sheet it's 92% efficient at 115V, 94% at 220V. That's matched only by the very best 80+ Titanium computer power supplies.
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A small correction, according to the data sheet it's 92% efficient at 115V, 94% at 220V. That's matched only by the very best 80+ Titanium computer power supplies.
Thanks, that sounds correct. I never looked at the data sheet so I was going with what I would consider to be close enough for the points I was making.
As you can see, not much room for real improvements in such a small package.
I normally charge at 240 VAC, so only 6% is wasted in heat. And even that isn't for long as I always connect up a couple of extra chargers.
BTW, I will be off line for several days. I am going backpacking up in the high Sierras for several days and nights. Leaving in about an hour. No cell service up there, I will have satellite communications, but not for the web.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Seems like a bad time to be in the mountains, if you ask me,
-Crissa
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Seems like a bad time to be in the mountains, if you ask me,
I ended up in Reno, but for a much different reason than smoke. There was no smoke at all at 7K feet elevation, sky was as blue as can be. Reno is not bad now either. I can clearly see Mt. Rose out my window here, unlike the last time I was here in Reno where I could not see anything through the smoke.
But I was going the Fordyce Lake area (NW of Soda Springs, CA). I take an unpaved road several miles (in my 4WD Jeep) and there is a sign that the area is closed because of major construction at the dam. It will be completed in year 2023!!!
So I am going to the Island Lake area to the west, but there will be a two day delay now for me to leave Reno, as I have a few things to do while I am here.
The area I am going backpacking in is right in the middle between my Reno and Auburn house.
I hope nobody minds the thread hijack!
-Don- Reno, NV
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Naw, hard to see these things as their own threads. My EV-driving buddy went to Oregon only to be evacuated from the cabin he was renting. And he went to Oregon to escape the smoke which of there is little escape now.
-Crissa
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My early morning sky is a dark red right now with smoke from fires coming down from Northern California, including fires around Willits (Highway 101 is closed), Oroville, La Porte, Quincy and probably other areas, too. Not a good time to go touring around California. :(
I just heard that a number of towns in Central Oregon are on fire and have been essentially destroyed, including Talent, where Brammo used to have their factory.
Here is a photo that I took from my home at 1:30 in the afternoon today.
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In my message 94 above, I just made some minor changes for better accuracy, and a better explanation, in case anybody is interested.
-Don- Reno, NV
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My early morning sky is a dark red right now with smoke from fires coming down from Northern California, including fires around Willits (Highway 101 is closed), Oroville, La Porte, Quincy and probably other areas, too. Not a good time to go touring around California. :(
Today was the complete opposite of the other day at Donner Summit. Today is VERY smokey in the high mountains.
I think I will put off my backpacking trip for another week!
-Don- Auburn, CA