ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: Richard230 on September 02, 2020, 03:47:06 AM
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A little something different from Husqvarna. An electric E-Pilen:
https://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/electric-husqvarna-e-pilen-planned-for-2022.html
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Where is the battery supposed to go?
The Svartpilen have gotten good reviews,
-Crissa
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So 13HP.
Companies making weak junk that takes a major step backwards deserve the money pit they make for themselves.
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It will probably have a similar capacity to the Freeride-E, around 4kW/h. If they can make it lighter than the 125 Duke it could be good, the Freeride-E is 108kg. It would also give an A1 friendly option for those that prefer Husky styling over KTM. The big decider is going to be the price because if it's too much people will choose an 11kW Zero that has a lot more performance and nearly double the range, or save a load of money and go with a 125.
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So 13HP.
Companies making weak junk that takes a major step backwards deserve the money pit they make for themselves.
This is not necessarily the case... there is an entire and huge underserved market in the 17-19 age bracket that has stagnated and dwindled terribly over the last 30 years. These riders became us. No-one replaced them. With electric almost certainly being the actual future of transport these bikes will be aimed at stoking the imaginations of the younger generation of would-be riders, and wooo boy I'd have wet my pants to have a bike that looked (or even went) like the E-Pilen when I was 17.
Cas :)
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13hp is EXACTLY the area I want for a supercommuter. Something that will do a bit over 100kph to use on a motorway and not need a battery the size of Belgium to get range.
Not everyone wants a superbike and scooters are for in town only. I suspect the mid ground, rather than being a money pit, will be the goldylocks zone for mass manufacture.
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Aye, a commuter that costs under £10k that can do 70 miles of A and B roads would be right up my street.
Also the older I get the more and more I appreciate that riding little bikes like a nutter is way more fun than constantly restraining big bikes...
Cas :)
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Aye, a commuter that costs under £10k that can do 70 miles of A and B roads would be right up my street.
Also the older I get the more and more I appreciate that riding little bikes like a nutter is way more fun than constantly restraining big bikes...
Cas :)
A 7.2kW/h Zero would get you that as long as you're not absolutely caning it down the country lanes. The Husky needs to come in at most £6k, £5k would be ideal but perhaps too close to the retail price of a 125 Duke at £4.3k. And at that price they're going to have to cut the range.
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I'd love the Zero except for the woeful reliability of all of its major components and the ensuing customer service tales. I can afford to have a bike off the road for exactly 1 day before a bike loses its entire financial advantage over a nice reliable car...
Pricing wise you're dead right; I think an electric bike needs to be - at this point - approximately 50% more than an equivalent ICE, no more, no less; just enough to differentiate it, just enough to not be ridiculously overpriced.
Cas :)
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Pricing wise you're dead right; I think an electric bike needs to be - at this point - approximately 50% more than an equivalent ICE
The thing with electric bikes is the battery is a significant portion of the cost, and it has a direct effect on one of the important factors of whether it's a viable choice for the customer, range. A gas bike with a short range doesn't really matter when there are gas stations everywhere and filling up takes minutes, it's just a minor inconvenience. They could probably get the price of the E-Pilen down to match a 125 Duke if they really wanted, it would just do 20 miles to a charge and few people would buy it. They could also give it 100 miles of range but it would end up costing as much as an 890 which would perform significantly better.
It's a hard balance to get right, my opinion is that range should be proportional to the performance (power basically) due to the increased cost of that range, so if they did go with anything greater than 4kW/h they'd need to up the performance to 390 Duke levels (so similar to a Zero S) to go with it.
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Pricing wise you're dead right; I think an electric bike needs to be - at this point - approximately 50% more than an equivalent ICE
The thing with electric bikes is the battery is a significant portion of the cost, and it has a direct effect on one of the important factors of whether it's a viable choice for the customer, range. A gas bike with a short range doesn't really matter when there are gas stations everywhere and filling up takes minutes, it's just a minor inconvenience. They could probably get the price of the E-Pilen down to match a 125 Duke if they really wanted, it would just do 20 miles to a charge and few people would buy it. They could also give it 100 miles of range but it would end up costing as much as an 890 which would perform significantly better.
It's a hard balance to get right, my opinion is that range should be proportional to the performance (power basically) due to the increased cost of that range, so if they did go with anything greater than 4kW/h they'd need to up the performance to 390 Duke levels (so similar to a Zero S) to go with it.
Since I own both a Zero S (with the heavy PT) and also a 390 Duke, I can confirm that the Zero would leave the Duke in the dust any any speed, although they both have the same top speed - at least for a short while. ;)
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No Zeros in Australia. They withdrew a few months ago, leaving any owners in the lurch.
They were insanely expensive in Australia ( not entirely their fault. Don't get me started on Aussie ADR testing BS)
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"It's a hard balance to get right, my opinion is that range should be proportional to the performance "
Although perhaps not a complete rule, overall I can agree with that ( eg an offroad bike could be good with long range and less power. A race bike could have big power , less range).
A commuter or supercommuter doesn't need giant range . There is rarely a practical use for it. On the other hand a power bike needs plenty of reserve usually.
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"It's a hard balance to get right, my opinion is that range should be proportional to the performance "
Although perhaps not a complete rule, overall I can agree with that ( eg an offroad bike could be good with long range and less power. A race bike could have big power , less range).
A commuter or supercommuter doesn't need giant range . There is rarely a practical use for it. On the other hand a power bike needs plenty of reserve usually.
That's a good point, at some point adding range isn't going to be a good idea because of the weight and space needed and if fast DC charging could be added instead that could be the better option. My point was more about the cost of the increased range, like you wouldn't want to spend 15 grand for a bike with a 14.4kW/h battery but Super Soco performance. Likewise with the E-Pilen, 150 mile range sounds great but it would cost a lot and paying that much for 125cc performance is going to be a hard sell. It's not that it's a necessity, a lot of people could make good use of a 125 tier bike with that much range, it's just that we expect bikes to increase in performance as price goes up.
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Their small gas bike in this form is 44hp.
So they feel that is as low as "real bikers" will go.
Putting out such a weak toy is an insult to those who want to ride electric. Just 13hp and a 4kWh battery. Better not be more than $1000.
Husqvarna: Put a couple of kids hover boards together, that's good enough for electric riders.
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The 401 is basically a redesigned KTM 390 Duke and that also comes in 125, 200, and 250 versions, same goes for the RC390. Outside of America those models make a lot of sense as would this at 13hp, which would result in similar performance to the 125.
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Their small gas bike in this form is 44hp.
So they feel that is as low as "real bikers" will go.
Putting out such a weak toy is an insult to those who want to ride electric. Just 13hp and a 4kWh battery. Better not be more than $1000.
Husqvarna: Put a couple of kids hover boards together, that's good enough for electric riders.
The KTM 390 engine in one of their Adventure models was recently tested in India on a DynoJet dyno and it produced just over 36 hp at the rear wheel. The manufacturer claims 44 hp. So I always take claimed power numbers with a large grain of salt. On the other hand, the few dyno tests of Zero motorcycles that I have seen have always been very close to what they claim and that is at the rear wheel. :) Direct drive is nice. You don't have to deal with friction/heat losses as the power finds its way from the top of the piston, though the gearbox, pass the final drive and finally to the rear wheel. ;)
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Crazy power figures are really a bit of a side effect for ICE engines which are trying to make enough torque to be usable. IMO electric powertrains don't need anywhere near the power of ICE because they generate all their usable torque exactly when where it's needed without the need for gears. The modern biker is a very different beast to the Paleolithic biker of 30 years ago too. Not many are chasing top speeds any more, which is what you need power for. I don't know anyone who rides at over a ton any more because of the high chance of being caught and banned, not to mention it's now just simply not at all big or clever to rebel by scaring everyone else around you shitless. So essentially... EV bike makers will find that they satisfy the vast majority of the biking marking by making just enough power to get to maybe 100mph, and nobody's all that bothered about going faster any more. It's just not a selling point.
Cas :)
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My point is a 2016 one brick Zero FXS was twice the power of this bike.
A company with the size and money of Husqvarna shouldn't be going backwards from what was out almost 5 years ago.
It seems like a pure token/compliance offering.
If they had put out a usable US spec bike as well I'd shrug this weak little bike off as "whatever to each their own" but that isn't the case.
They can and should do better.
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It's a perfectly normal spec for a large sector of the UK (and presumable EU) market though. We don't just get on big bikes here, there's a tedious stepped licensing system, and 15hp is where it's at. So it'd serve that market really well... provided it wasn't outrageously overpriced, and they may have a problem there because the 125cc segment doesn't worry about stuff like fuel economy or servicing costs as they sip petrol and never get serviced anyway, which were two of the biggest arguments for electrics in the big power sector.
Cas :)
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Those restrictions only show that the better option is a higher end electric bicycle. Avoid the licensing issues all together.
As was complained about on another post, so few in Britain have garage space or even driveways so they park on the street.
Just pick an E bike up and take it indoors.
To me a "city bike's" number one goal is to escape the city not be trapped there forever.
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In the UK we are allowed a 250 Watt pedal assist only, before you need a motorcycle license. So it fits right in, here.
Cas :)
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An electrically assisted bicycle (as legal in the UK and EU) and an electric A1 motorcycle aren't really comparable at all. As Prince said they're limited to 250w and an assistance speed of somewhere around 15mph (think it's 25km/h), range is going to be shorter, and of course you need to put in some effort to pedal the thing.
Saying that an A1 class electric bike is stupid or whatever is the same as saying the 125 Duke and RC125 are stupid, and with the amount of those that KTM sells I bet they'd disagree. Maybe in time they'll come out with a more powerful one to compliment the 200/250/390 Duke and RC and Husky's 401, but for a first attempt at a street bike it makes sense to go for something lower cost and with a larger market.
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It sounds like it discourages use. I wonder if the UK will be developing fewer riders.
On the other hand, there are still products between a type 3 ebike and a freeway motorcycle.
-Crissa
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The UK is no worse off than the rest of Europe, in fact A1 class bikes have additional appeal to us as they can be ridden after taking a short and cheap training course (similar to the American MSF course except we go out on the road) where as the rest of Europe has to take actual tests and pay the additional costs involved. A 16/17 year old in Europe has to pay €1000 or more to ride an A1 bike, here a 17 year old only has to pay a little over £100 (around €130).
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Aye, and also lest we forget, Europe and North America are totally dwarfed by India and Asia in terms of small capacity ICE bikes. Those markets will lead the way anyway. Not everything's about us!
Cas :)
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It doesn't do me much good if a bike and rider is in India.
-Crissa
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In the UK we are allowed a 250 Watt pedal assist only, before you need a motorcycle license. So it fits right in, here.
Cas :)
I believe that is also true in California, however our top speed is limited to 20 mph, unless you can pedal faster than that, have a tailwind, or are traveling downhill. ;)
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That's just sad. Maybe this weak little bike does fit in with modern EU.
I would average 23MPH on my bicycle racing training rides (40 miles). That's with stop signs and red lights.
No one will make bikes for China and India that can compete in price to the ones made in country and owned in country. So write that off the wish list.
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That "weak little bike" will still out accelerate most cars on the road and break the speed limit, and being able to lane split/filter in many places in the EU, India, and probably China too it will get around quicker than any car in traffic. And of course much faster than even the most elite level cyclist, because whatever they could hold on flat ground for any reasonable amount of time it will be able to achieve going uphill.
KTM, who owns Husqvarna, is a European company that is partly owned by an Indian company. They know their market and they sell very well there despite their higher pricing. Not as well as companies like Bajaj (who part owns KTM) or Royal Enfield in India, and not as well in China as Chinese made bikes, but they have higher sales than those companies in the EU and US to make up for it.
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NEW2elec,
That argument about ebike limit is one I have put many times about the ridiculousness of the 24kph top speed.
I would continually go out and average about the same speed for over a 100kph opn training rides , including ones with 300m climbs. In tris, rarely averaged under 40kph and that's after a swim and before a run. And I have 40% lung function!!!
My rides to work were usually about 34kph AVERAGE with my bag on the back on a carrier rack on a cheap woolworths bike!.
The US 32kph cutout makes way more sense than our (Australia) 24kph. But even that's too slow really.
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https://currentebikes.com/ebike-classes-california/
750 watts, 20 mph cut-out for unlicensed all-ages, hafta be 16 to use the type 3 28 mph cut-out.
(https://currentebikes.com/wp-content/uploads/california_electric_bike_law-2.jpg)
You still need a license with the same tests to take to ride a moped as a liter bike, they're just gated by being able to repeat the test in California.
-Crissa
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KTM, who owns Husqvarna, is a European company that is partly owned by an Indian company. ......
Unless things changed since BMW unloaded Husqvarna The main guy at ktm Perrier I believe has some investment corporation that Husqvarna belongs to. Bijaj or similar spelling, the Indian firm you mention did not get cut into the Husqvarna deal. The name for motorcycle purposes is liscenced supposedly in 7year terms.
Since I have no Gas Gas bikes I do not know the details of KTM buys gas gas.
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What the Bajaj deal means for KTM is truly mass market production for EVs, which in turn should lead to mass market economics for European EV production. In theory. It'll happen one way or the other of course, but this might make it a bit sooner, for KTM, at least. Husky may not be a part of the Bajaj deal but I don't for one minute think that they aren't all in bed together.
Cas :)
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KTM, who owns Husqvarna, is a European company that is partly owned by an Indian company. ......
Unless things changed since BMW unloaded Husqvarna The main guy at ktm Perrier I believe has some investment corporation that Husqvarna belongs to. Bijaj or similar spelling, the Indian firm you mention did not get cut into the Husqvarna deal. The name for motorcycle purposes is liscenced supposedly in 7year terms.
Since I have no Gas Gas bikes I do not know the details of KTM buys gas gas.
In late 2013 Husqvarna was sold from Pierer Industrie to KTM, the same year they bought it from BMW. It's why so many of the Husqvarna bikes are just aesthetically modified KTMs. KTM itself is owned by Pierer Mobility and Bajaj in a 52/48% split respectively.
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https://currentebikes.com/ebike-classes-california/
750 watts, 20 mph cut-out for unlicensed all-ages, hafta be 16 to use the type 3 28 mph cut-out.
(https://currentebikes.com/wp-content/uploads/california_electric_bike_law-2.jpg)
You still need a license with the same tests to take to ride a moped as a liter bike, they're just gated by being able to repeat the test in California.
-Crissa
I wonder who enforces all of those e-bike rules in California? Certainly not the cops, they can hardly manage to enforce obvious rules for motorcycles and cars, such as loud mufflers, goofy modifications, drunk drivers, speed limit violators and all of the people driving around without a license or insurance. It seems to me that having just one set of rules for e-bikes would make life simpler for everyone, including the manufacturers, the customers, the regulators and the enforcers. ???
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As with many things, it's perfectly fine to get away with it, until something goes wrong...
Cas :)