ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Fifty3 on July 27, 2020, 08:14:07 PM
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In another thread I wrote:
Can you point me to additional information about alignment? Sometimes my 2016 fxs seems to want to go, but stops, then might seem to want to go backward, but stops, and repeats that sequence several times. Other times it works flawlessly. I turn off the key switch then turn it back on and it usually corrects itself. My nearest "dealer" is 200 miles away and an unsuccessful attempt to order parts(front brake lever) from them did not convince me that they were a place I would want to trust to service or repair my bike.
One of the responses was:
Make a new thread, please. This may be unrelated, and troubleshooting it is going to muck up this thread even more.
So, here is a new thread with more information.
I took my FXS to the nearest dealer (Synergy Motorworks, only 184 miles away) and they told me I would have to leave it with them because the problem required response from the Zero factory and they were usually a bit slow to respond. Today is one week later and still no response. It is summer. I should be riding my motorcycle, but I'm not. I am at the mercy of Zero to decide when to provide the dealer information that will allow the repair to be made so I can get back on the road.
I read complaints about e-bikes having limited range, taking hours to charge and sometimes operating at reduced power if they are ridden too hard. I was aware of those problems and decided those limitations were something I could live with. Somehow it had escaped my notice that riders and even dealers were at the mercy of the factory in getting repairs and/or adjustments made. For me, this is a deal-breaker in owning a motorcycle. I have owned 40 Hondas and NEVER had a similar problem. Yamaha, Kawasaki, Triumph, Husqvarna, Suzuki, and even Bridgestone have never been an obstacle to getting repairs done and quickly getting me back on the road. When the Zero is working, it is fantastic. When it isn't working, it is the worst motorcycle I have owned.
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I hope they get to your bike soon. Have you had scheduled maintenance done? If the dealer says the bike has been sitting waiting for Zero, tell them you want to pull it for the original problem and now you want (to pay for) scheduled maintenance. That will include the motor alignment. If they go for it, you might get lucky. If so, definitely ride around the dealer to see if you can make the problem come back, before you go home. Zero wants to diagnosis the problem. You just want to be riding.
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This probably would take Zero's help, as it's not a particularly common problem.
Zero is a little slow, and we're back under COVID19 restrictions here in Santa Cruz. It took them two weeks to fix it when they blew up my mainboard in my bike, so I would expect at least a two-week turnaround.
The problem you're seeing is if the computer or main linkage in an ICE bike was misfiring the engine, and the shop didn't just have a new computer or a clear path to diagnose why it was doing something it should never do. So they have to wait until the manufacturer gets back to them so they can make the right diagnosis without destroying the motor. It's more a function of rarity than anything.
Glad you were able to get it to a dealer to get it into the diagnostic queue!
-Crissa
(Fixed 'about' to 'at least' since it's more accurate)
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It took them two weeks to fix it when they blew up my mainboard in my bike, so I would expect about a two-week turnaround.
Do you have a thread here about that? I would like to hear what happened there!
-Don- Auburn, CA
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It took them two weeks to fix it when they blew up my mainboard in my bike, so I would expect about a two-week turnaround.
Do you have a thread here about that? I would like to hear what happened there!
-Don- Auburn, CA
She isn't "philosophying" on that one : https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9437.msg82734#msg82734
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So Fifty3 I assume you mean motor commissioning which is the 8k mile service needed for the IPM motors.
I can't really remember if a 16 FXS had an IPM motor and they dropped the spec pages for older bikes.
(I WISH THEY WOULD BRING THOSE BACK)
edit: never mind they do, thanks unofficial manual.
It does have the IPM motor so when did you last have it commissioned?
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Only the SR/DSR got IPM in 2016, it was 2017 for all the other models. Also the motor commissioning is done for the first service at 600 miles and only done the once as far as I know, at least I haven't seen anyone mention having it done multiple times. Is the commissioning only for IPM anyway? The only difference is the placement of the magnets and I don't see how that would make any difference, and I'm pretty sure Brian said previously that commissioning was actually more important on the older motors.
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I bought the bike, used, with 1700 miles on it. I have ridden it less than 100 miles. Due to the nature of the purchase, no service records are available to me. The trip to the dealer was not related to any pre-determined service intervals. It was purely because of erratic behavior as described in my original post in this thread.
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TheRan, This is from the Motor section of the unofficial manual (if it links right) and says the 2016 FXS had it so that's what I went by for that.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/XMX_Platform/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Z-Force_Motor_IPM_Update
In the main Zero owners manual (page 6.5 for my 2017) it has the "Drive Motor Commissioning and Timing" intervals at 600m 8000 miles and every 8000 there after.
Fifty3, well then it's not your fault but maybe the first owner never had it done or it could be a bad motor encoder which would mean you would need a new motor.
Hopefully a commissioning can set it straight. I get that your frustrated but you have to keep a few things in mind.
Zero is a small fraction the size of the big bike brands you talked about so in the best of times it's a slower moving process, with Covid it's much worse.
There is a time difference that compounds the problem of hooking up the Shop to Zero tech.
And a lot of these shop guys resent having to call someone for help in the first place.
Good luck with it man and just try to be patient.
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TheRan, This is from the Motor section of the unofficial manual (if it links right) and says the 2016 FXS had it so that's what I went by for that.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/XMX_Platform/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Z-Force_Motor_IPM_Update
In the main Zero owners manual (page 6.5 for my 2017) it has the "Drive Motor Commissioning and Timing" intervals at 600m 8000 miles and every 8000 there after.
I was going by this page: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Motor
The page you linked says that FX and S/DS models (not FXS for some reason) with the "3-brick battery" were still SPM for a while, I'm still not completely sure what all the battery terminology means and how that differs from a "longbrick" which from the page I was looking at didn't switch to IPM until 2017. It's interesting that commissioning would differ between the two types (different software) if it was just the attachment method of the batteries that was different, there must be some circuitry differences as well.
You're indeed right about the commissioning every 8k miles, surprised no one else has mentioned that from what I've seen. I was under the impression that once it's done it's something that stays put but I suppose it must drift a bit over time.
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Well, the description of the procedure is more like 'make sure it hasn't drifted'.
So maybe it's not that they expect it, but it does need to be fixed on some subset of bikes.
-Crissa
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The 2014 S that I owned and gave my daughter never needed to be "commissioned" and is still running fine. What Zero really should do is to "recommission" their OB chargers. ::)
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The 2014 S that I owned and gave my daughter never needed to be "commissioned" and is still running fine. What Zero really should do is to "recommission" their OB chargers. ::)
I heard about this guy who had a 2016 SR and only took it in for service to change the tires because he was too busy riding it all the time and didn't have a tire installer at home. But if someone does have the opportunity, they should support their local dealer as much as they can.
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The 2014 S that I owned and gave my daughter never needed to be "commissioned" and is still running fine. What Zero really should do is to "recommission" their OB chargers. ::)
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal
If your charger never failed, would you say that in every charger failed thread?
-Crissa
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TheRan, This is from the Motor section of the unofficial manual (if it links right) and says the 2016 FXS had it so that's what I went by for that.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/XMX_Platform/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Z-Force_Motor_IPM_Update
In the main Zero owners manual (page 6.5 for my 2017) it has the "Drive Motor Commissioning and Timing" intervals at 600m 8000 miles and every 8000 there after.
I was going by this page: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Motor
The page you linked says that FX and S/DS models (not FXS for some reason) with the "3-brick battery" were still SPM for a while, I'm still not completely sure what all the battery terminology means and how that differs from a "longbrick" which from the page I was looking at didn't switch to IPM until 2017. It's interesting that commissioning would differ between the two types (different software) if it was just the attachment method of the batteries that was different, there must be some circuitry differences as well.
You're indeed right about the commissioning every 8k miles, surprised no one else has mentioned that from what I've seen. I was under the impression that once it's done it's something that stays put but I suppose it must drift a bit over time.
So 2016 was the first year for both the IPM motor and the FXS model and I guess they were worried about people running the little supermoto too hard and having it over heat so they just started it out on the IPM motor.
Zero has always put older inventory parts on the lower end bikes until they are used up so the SPM motor went into the smaller battery (aka 3 brick) and full 4 brick S and DS models until they were gone.
You can feel the difference between the IPM and SPM with the SPM being much "snappier". I'm no expert by any means but with the magnets being further away from the coils to help with the over heating I think the commissioning makes sure the encoder knows exactly how the magnets are aligned and keeps it from doing what the OP described as stalling and some reverse movement which isn't good.
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The 2014 S that I owned and gave my daughter never needed to be "commissioned" and is still running fine. What Zero really should do is to "recommission" their OB chargers. ::)
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal
If your charger never failed, would you say that in every charger failed thread?
-Crissa
No, it is just on my mind this week. My new charger is scheduled to arrive on Thursday. I just like to keep the charger subject going in the hopes that Zero will finally get the message and come up with a solution. ::) If it wasn't for the chargers failing, the three Zeros that I have owned would have been 100% reliable. So that is the only thing I have to complain about. ;)
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TheRan, This is from the Motor section of the unofficial manual (if it links right) and says the 2016 FXS had it so that's what I went by for that.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/XMX_Platform/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Z-Force_Motor_IPM_Update
In the main Zero owners manual (page 6.5 for my 2017) it has the "Drive Motor Commissioning and Timing" intervals at 600m 8000 miles and every 8000 there after.
I was going by this page: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Motor
The page you linked says that FX and S/DS models (not FXS for some reason) with the "3-brick battery" were still SPM for a while, I'm still not completely sure what all the battery terminology means and how that differs from a "longbrick" which from the page I was looking at didn't switch to IPM until 2017. It's interesting that commissioning would differ between the two types (different software) if it was just the attachment method of the batteries that was different, there must be some circuitry differences as well.
You're indeed right about the commissioning every 8k miles, surprised no one else has mentioned that from what I've seen. I was under the impression that once it's done it's something that stays put but I suppose it must drift a bit over time.
So 2016 was the first year for both the IPM motor and the FXS model and I guess they were worried about people running the little supermoto too hard and having it over heat so they just started it out on the IPM motor.
Zero has always put older inventory parts on the lower end bikes until they are used up so the SPM motor went into the smaller battery (aka 3 brick) and full 4 brick S and DS models until they were gone.
You can feel the difference between the IPM and SPM with the SPM being much "snappier". I'm no expert by any means but with the magnets being further away from the coils to help with the over heating I think the commissioning makes sure the encoder knows exactly how the magnets are aligned and keeps it from doing what the OP described as stalling and some reverse movement which isn't good.
I have noticed the same thing. My 2014 Zero seemed to have more torque and a snappier throttle response than my 2018 S, with its IPM motor. Both bikes were PT equipped and weighed the same.
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No, it is just on my mind this week. ... ::) If it wasn't for the chargers failing, the three Zeros that I have owned would have been 100% reliable. So that is the only thing I have to complain about. ;)
^-^
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In another thread I wrote:
Can you point me to additional information about alignment? Sometimes my 2016 fxs seems to want to go, but stops, then might seem to want to go backward, but stops, and repeats that sequence several times. Other times it works flawlessly. I turn off the key switch then turn it back on and it usually corrects itself. My nearest "dealer" is 200 miles away and an unsuccessful attempt to order parts(front brake lever) from them did not convince me that they were a place I would want to trust to service or repair my bike.
Hi Fifty3, Encoder "alignment" is a very serious problem that is misunderstood by most. Zero initially replaced motors and then, seemingly, determined the problem was too wide spread and too costly to correctly address. If your dealers claims to have fixed the problem, do 2 things first. First, ask them what the problem was to describe what happened. Secondly, either lifted or under load, run the motor. If you lose alignment again do not ride the bike. It best to run at higher speeds and safest under load on a dyno. Loss of alignment can result in loss of life.
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I took my FXS to the dealer 15 days ago. When I called them this morning, they told me that they hadn't touched the bike, because they only had two techs in the shop and hadn't gotten to it yet. That does not match up with what I was told when I took it in. I am probably going to go to the dealer and pick up the bike tomorrow. I will probably part it out, as the parts are worth more than the defective motorcycle. Zero seems to be an appropriate name for the bike, as that is the score I would give it, based on my experience with it so far. I have to assume that if it were a brand new bike with full warranty, I would still have the same problem, because the dealer still would not have enough techs to get to it on a timely basis.
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Fifty3 you have a bad dealer. As I've posted before if you went to a Dr. and they didn't get you feeling better would you end it all or go find a different Dr.? Old grease monkeys who can tear down and rebuild a gas bike with their eyes closed, hate having to ask for help and wait for a tech to figure out what's wrong, when they could be doing 10 oil changes in that time.
Basically at worst your looking at about $3k for a whole new motor if the encoder is shot. May very well just be a $50 commissioning.
If your that hard headed about it please just sell it as is and let someone who is willing to deal with an EV use the bike.
The Forum is willing to help guide you but you can't just give up because it's not going the way you imagine it should.
Good luck man.
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If it wasn't for the chargers failing, the three Zeros that I have owned would have been 100% reliable. So that is the only thing I have to complain about. ;)
I think it depends on luck. My SR had a front ABS wheel sensor crap out. I replaced it myself even though the bike was still in warranty.
My DS had the battery crap out. Also, during warranty. I let the dealer do that one, of course! Both of my chargers are as good as new (so far).
BTW, I am curious about your "2018 16.6 kWh Zero S". Those numbers don't seem to add up for the year.
14.4 KWH = main battery. The power tank should be 25% or 3.6 KW. 14.4 plus 3.6 KW adds up to 18 KW.
If it's the older batteries, as my 2017 SR, it still does not add up. 13KW plus 3.3 KW=16.3 KW.
But what will add up, is if your main battery is old (13.0 KW) and your charge tank is newer (3.6 K) to equal 16.6 KW.
Did you have your charge tank added on a year later? If so, did you notice around a 28% increase in your range?
-Don- Reno, NV
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I'd vote up NEW2elec's response.
I'd be incensed if I took anything to a service tech and they 'didn't touch it' for two weeks.
That seems more on the dealer than the bike.
-Crissa
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How are they suppose to "touch it" if they've never been trained?
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If it's a Zero dealer someone there should be trained. More serious issues they will call and a Zero HQ tech who will walk them through what needs to be checked and done.
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If they're not trained, they shouldn't have accepted the job.
-Crissa
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If it's a Zero dealer someone there should be trained. More serious issues they will call and a Zero HQ tech who will walk them through what needs to be checked and done.
Zero does not train, by design. Trained techs repair bikes. Repairs require parts. Repairs cost money. Zero doesn't like to pay.
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I really don't care whether the problem is at the dealer or at the factory. I blame Zero for allowing someone to be a dealer if they don't have the resources to do the job. I have mentally written the "zero" off as a bad decision on my part, and have continued to enjoy my operating and repairable motorcycles. I know of at least two sales that this situation has cost Zero, so, actually, Zero is paying.
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Well, then name the dealer.
Neither we nor Zero can know which dealer is being a twit about it unless someone stands up and says.
-Crissa
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Fifty3 what did you mean by this:
" Due to the nature of the purchase, no service records are available to me. "
Where did you get the bike from?
Sounds kind of like an auction.
Of course the idea that a manufacturer somehow has control over a shop mechanic's work ethic is not realistic at all, but you can feel about it however you'd like.
And while we're at it how much do you want for the worthless piece of crap?
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I bought it from a car dealer, who bought it from an auto auction, who got it from a bank that had repo'd it from ???. Good luck getting any history from that mess. I assume that Zero would have original sales and commissioning information, but I also assume that info would not be available to me. PM me if you want to discuss buying it.
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Well, then name the dealer.
Neither we nor Zero can know which dealer is being a twit about it unless someone stands up and says.
-Crissa
That information was in my first post in this thread.
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If it's a Zero dealer someone there should be trained. More serious issues they will call and a Zero HQ tech who will walk them through what needs to be checked and done.
Zero does not train, by design. Trained techs repair bikes. Repairs require parts. Repairs cost money. Zero doesn't like to pay.
First off, Zero does train dealers. They've hosted multiple training sessions at their HQ and areas around the country. I've been to them. It's difficult to force a dealer to go though, and turnover is pretty high at motorcycle shops. And it doesn't always make sense with very low volume shops. But to sell the new FST platform bikes, Zero required dealers to send people for training.
I understand the frustration when you take a bike in, you expect someone to look at it. You can always call Zero Technical Support and complain, they'll lean on the dealer to get the job done. Zero keeps a record of all warranty work done on the bike. If you know the VIN, you could call and ask.
Buying a bike from a small company is sometimes an audition of the dealer as much as it is of the bike itself. I'm sorry they're not working out, and I'd encourage you to take it to another if possible. If no one complains, Zero can't do anything about it. :)
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Auriga: Very good response. I'll take your advice and try to contact someone at Zero tomorrow. Thanks.
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Oh good I was just about to write a long post trying to get you to do that.
I'm going off what you posted which seems to be the dealer said we'll get right on this and then didn't so I hope you see that (at this point) it's all on the dealer.
If they say Zero couldn't figure out what is wrong and they are giving us the run around then the thread can go in a different direction.
Truly good luck with it man. I don't want to see you shoot yourself in the foot and loose a lot of money when it might be a simple fix.
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Actually, I just got off of the phone with Zero customer support and I'm sure I was smiling. They are GOOD! I got all of the service history, registered myself as the current owner, confirmed that it is probably nothing more than timing/alignment/commissioning. I also learned that Zero says they have NOT BEEN CONTACTED by the dealer about the bike. They will be calling the dealer tomorrow morning to try to expedite the service work.
So,,,,,, If it works the way it should, I'll be right here "eating crow" and, hopefully learning to contribute to the forum. Many thanks to all of the people who have been trying to help.
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Great man glad to hear it!
You don't need to eat anything just when you get it back go out and enjoy the ride.
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It has been another week and the dealer told me this morning, they haven't touched it.
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Augh, so frustrating, man.
-Crissa
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Well it may be worth calling Zero again or just getting it and ruin their reputation (Dealer not Zero) as much as you can. Yelp, BBB any where they have a customer base.
At this point I would order them to do a commissioning, 1 hour at most, and go get the bike. If your very very far away from another dealer then sadly this may not be a good bike for your situation.
I hate it isn't working out for you like it SHOULD, but if the carrot of money won't make them work the other option is the rod of shame because there are laws against the other options.
Good luck man.
Edit
Good point Curt thanks
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Here is my experience. Everything here is purely my opinion and may be right or it may be wrong, but this is the story from my point of view.
At the request of the dealer. I took my FXS to him, July 20, 2020.
August 21, 2020 the dealer told me Zero had finally been able to connect to my bike and they believed that it needed either a controller(~$1500) or motor(~$3000), but we had to wait for Zero to have a meeting the following Monday to decide for sure. Not being able to make an immediate decision, based on the diagnostics report does not give me a feeling of confidence in Zero. It feels to me like they are just guessing and wanting to throw expensive parts at it in the hope that something might fix it. Somehow it had been determined that commissioning or alignment wasn't the problem.
August 26, 2020 I picked the bike up from the dealer and paid them $160 for their time (Actually, that was a low price for the diagnostics effort on their part.)
At that time, the dealer told me it had been decided (by Zero) that a new motor was needed. Because of its age,(2016) the bike is no longer covered under warranty. So,,, now I have a bike with 1707 miles on the odometer that Zero says needs a $3000 motor replacement. It does not make good business sense for me to spend the additional money on a bike that I paid $4500 for when I bought it. Rather than spending more money on the Zero, I have invested the $3000 in a beautiful Honda CRF230L that has 1450 miles on it. It will be reliable and will serve me for many years and, if it breaks, I can fix it myself!!!!!!
What have I learned? A used Zero might look like a good deal, but if it breaks, you might have a very expensive pile of useless junk. BUYER BEWARE!!!
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Fifty3, first let me say that's a bad turn of events. Enjoy your Honda if that works for you.
Here is my take away on from what I get from your comments and my opinion.
First of a quick search of Cycle Trader will show the lowest priced FXS is $6999.
Next lowest is like $8k "Firm" so even replacing the motor puts the bike on the lowest end of pricing for any future owner.
If a dealership (car) only wanted $4500 then they got the bike for like $2k maybe and someone had to know the bike wasn't running right to take that much below book value.
That should have been a clue but moving on.
The key to these bikes is always putting miles on the bike to save in gas and routine maintenance. A short term owner will get burned.
I still put 90% of the blame for the wait time and feet dragging on the dealer.
A motor commissioning should only take 30 mins and either that could have fixed it or been ruled out as the issue.
I would like to ask, did you trade it in?
If so I'd love to know what price they put on it compared to what they gave you for it.
Dealers always seem to think you have the worst piece of junk in the world at trade in but once it's on their lot it's a great gently used, whatever.
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Fifty3, first let me say that's a bad turn of events. Enjoy your Honda if that works for you.
Here is my take away on from what I get from your comments and my opinion.
First of a quick search of Cycle Trader will show the lowest priced FXS is $6999.
Next lowest is like $8k "Firm" so even replacing the motor puts the bike on the lowest end of pricing for any future owner.
here is one A double battery version with the quick charger for $6000. 2016
https://raleigh.craigslist.org/mcy/d/cary-2016-zero-fxs-electric-motorcycle/7182668606.html