ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: DeSelbyofDalkey on July 17, 2020, 12:18:43 AM
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I am thinking of getting a Zero SR/S and was wondering how much the 600 mile initial service cost for those who own the SR/S or SR/F.
TIA
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It's generally understood that firmware updates when performed at dealers are covered by Zero.
The motor commissioning at 600 miles is important preventative maintenance to perform and I am unsure whether it is gratis/OEM-covered but takes under an hour to perform. The rest is a system checkup and fastener/mechanical checks like most other bikes.
Warranty statement on Zero's part: https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/warranty/
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And don't let them charge you for firmware! Service centers will have a code for that, but they're supposed to bill Zero, not you.
Even on an old bike like mine ^-^
-Crissa
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The motor commissioning at 600 miles is important preventative maintenance to perform and I am unsure whether it is gratis/OEM-covered but takes under an hour to perform.
At two different dealers, Elk Grove PowerSports (for my SR) as well as In Reno at Eurocycles (DS). I asked for the (first) FW update as well as the motor commissioning.
Both places did the FW updates, neither place did the motor commissioning. I am wondering if they have decided it isn't necessary if the bike is still running okay.
Both my bikes run perfectly at 10K miles. Neither one of them has had the motor commissioning done since the day I purchased the bikes new in 2017.
-Don- Reno, NV
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And don't let them charge you for firmware! Service centers will have a code for that, but they're supposed to bill Zero, not you.
Even on an old bike like mine ^-^
-Crissa
If that is the case, I got screwed-twice! It cost me a hundred bucks for the very first FW update on each. Now I can do them myself OTA.
Or could it be only for the older bikes? Can yours also now do FW updates OTA?
Or could it have been a safety related recall on yours?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Preventative maintenance like motor commissioning should be performed even when it is not immediately necessary per current symptoms.
Motor controller alignment checks are part of motor commissioning and help identify whether a correction is needed. The precursor to an alignment problem may be imperceptible to the owner and to the technician until damage is occurring.
Almost all bikes stay in alignment and do not need correction. But the cost of letting alignment slip can be very costly by damaging the motor or worse, and conceivably lead to a catastrophic accident if the inbuilt safeguards don’t engage properly or some other aggravating condition comes into play.
The maintenance is preventative vs corrective for that reason. Suggesting that owners not perform this because their bike runs fine is irresponsible and I cannot condone this.
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Commissioning was not on the Zero maintenance schedule prior to 2018. It's also described as 'timing' so I'm not sure what all it entails. And yes, if the motor is out of alignment, that would make good parts wear out!
-Crissa
PS: Yes, they tried to charge me, too! And I was like, 'no, it says firmware is free' and they were like, 'oh, right, this is what we show Zero, whoops.' I think once it's up to date everyone but 13&14 can do over the air updates. But there will be situations where it might not be up to date, and even then, it's supposed to be free.
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The maintenance is preventative vs corrective for that reason. Suggesting that owners not perform this because their bike runs fine is irresponsible and I cannot condone this.
I am not suggesting such, I am only telling you my experience. I tried to get it done at two different dealers where I don't think the service manager even knew what it meant. So obviously, it isn't done at either place often.
But I do have some advice, based on my own experience. And that is when you go in for a motor commissioning do NOT ask to have any other services done, or the same may happen to you, where you get everything you ask for except for the motor commissioning.
If you ask for the motor commissioning only they will have no other reason to accept the bike and it will be more likely to get done.
I have been wondering if I should now do that. But both of mine are still running like new, so I am not all that concerned, but perhaps I should be.
But I was wondering if Zero changed their minds about how necessary it is on a well running bike over the years.
And I know such changes do happen. For an example, when I purchased my Tesla in 2017, they said the battery coolant should be changed every 50K miles. Now they are saying it should last the life of the car and don't bother to change it unless changing the batteries or something like that.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I believe that the powertrain sensitivity to this issue changed with design revisions such that upgrades to older bikes get the newer more stringent recommendation.
Alignment issues have in any case occasionally cropped up on older bikes and anyone with a technical understanding of PMAC motor controllers should be able to work out the risk and at least say that for the average owner, an occasional check and correction is good practice if you care about your bike’s durability and longevity.
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When my 2018 S was first serviced I was charged for 1.5 hours of labor, which included the motor commissioning, checking for firmware updates and going over the chassis while checking a long list of specific chassis items - like making sure that there was air in the tires. ::) I was not charged for any parts, other than for a couple of andom environmental fees.
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When my 2018 S was first serviced I was charged for 1.5 hours of labor, which included the motor commissioning, checking for firmware updates and going over the chassis while checking a long list of specific chassis items - like making sure that there was air in the tires. ::) I was not charged for any parts, other than for a couple of andom environmental fees.
Where did you have it serviced?
Do you have paperwork that says the motor commissioning was done? The reason I ask is because I asked them to do my bikes at two different places and I received no paperwork that has a word about the commissioning from either place, just the $110.00 (IIRC) for the first FW update.
Do you know if they made any adjustments for your motor commissioning?
I probably didn't even look at the paperwork until I got home, so I didn't realize at first it wasn't done when I picked up the bike. IOW, I made the same mistake twice, about a month apart.
And when I got my new DS battery under warranty, I didn't even think about the commissioning then.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Is there any way to tell if it's been done? Mine's overdue, it's probably the only thing they'd do during the service that I can't do myself so if I'm paying for it I'd want to make sure it's done. Is it something any Zero dealer can do? I've only got two that are within a comfortable distance.
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I don't know, it's a measure of alignment and timing, it might not show anything visible unless it were out of calibration.
-Crissa
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The act of motor commissioning consists of a reprogramming of the Sevcon controller, if it results in corrections. I do not know whether it results in an event in the MBB log, but I have never identified such an event.
Any maintenance action ought to result in an event entry in a vehicle's log, though, as a legal matter.
I don't think Zero engineers have implemented the MBB event log with any such discipline, though. The fact that the Gen3 logs show each turn signal toggle is just ridiculous, and Gen2 logs have always lacked rigorous design and structure.
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This was my initial service cost. They charged 15 EUR for an UPDATE? 242 EUR was for the luggage rack that they also mounted so that 106.33 EUR is partially for the service and partially for the mounting. Those small parts were just for the rack mounting at 6,80 EUR.
So initial service cost was 106,33 + 15 EUR = 121,33 EUR or less depending on how much of that service was for mounting the rack.
The technician did mention motor commissioning and that he performed it with support from Zero on the phone. Turned out the offset was less than 0.3% (or could 've been even 0.03%, it's been a while) and therefor wasn't really needed at that point. But they do it as part of the first check up anyway.
(https://i.ibb.co/V3y0hTx/Screenshot-2020-07-17-at-10-37-38.png) (https://ibb.co/M9Tyj7f)
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Here is my 2018 Zero S with PT 3-page 600-mile servicing work order. I hope you can read it as I had to reduce the size of my photos to get them to fit on this post. Note the item on page 2 that says that the technician "adjusted the encoder using the Zero diagnostic software". You may need to download the pictures on to your computer and expand them to read them clearly. But if the technician really did all of that work I would say that I got my money's worth. :)
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Here is my 2018 Zero S with PT 3-page 600-mile servicing work order.
Excellent! Thanks, Richard.
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Here is my 2018 Zero S with PT 3-page 600-mile servicing work order.
Which shop did the work?
-Don-
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Here is my 2018 Zero S with PT 3-page 600-mile servicing work order.
Which shop did the work?
-Don-
SF Moto in San Francisco. Their technician has a lot of experience with Zeros, having worked on the brand when he and some of the sales staff were working at the shop in Daly City that started selling Zeros in 2010. When that shop closed a few years ago, they transferred to SF Moto and apparently have been selling and servicing Zeros at a slow but steady pace since then.
BTW, if anyone wants to see a more clear photo of my servicing checklist, let me know. I can take larger photos and insert them one at a time on individual posts.
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SF Moto in San Francisco. Their technician has a lot of experience with Zeros, having worked on the brand when he and some of the sales staff were working at the shop in Daly City that started selling Zeros in 2010. When that shop closed a few years ago, they transferred to SF Moto and apparently have been selling and servicing Zeros at a slow but steady pace since then.
I remember both shops. But back then, SF Moto (https://www.sfmoto.com/electric-motorcycles.aspx)was a Moto Guzzi dealer. I see that has changed.
I am tempted by that Blue Zero SR/S premium they have in stock.
You probably know the formula for the number of motorcycles we should own. It's "N+1" where "N" is the number we currently own.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Can somebody explain me why they readjust the front fork ? (page 3)
If you finetuned your suspension to have it just like you want it, you can start all over .
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Can somebody explain me why they readjust the front fork ? (page 3)
If you finetuned your suspension to have it just like you want it, you can start all over .
I wonder if they really do all the stuff they claim they do in writing.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Can somebody explain me why they readjust the front fork ? (page 3)
If you finetuned your suspension to have it just like you want it, you can start all over .
I wonder if they really do all the stuff they claim they do in writing.
-Don- Reno, NV
I have my doubts. I checked the tension of my belt after the shop worked on it and it was still much higher than what is listed on the checklist. My recollection is that it was set at around 70 kg, which is at the upper end of the recommended tension on the 2018 S models. I suspect that the check list was developed when Zeros had the 14mm wide belt and not the 17mm belt like on my bike. Perhaps the tech just checked the belt tension for the newer models without making a notation about the greater tension? But how can you really tell if all of those things were inspected by the shop? I do think the motor was "commissioned" though and that was probably the most important task that was to be accomplished at the first service.
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I believe that the powertrain sensitivity to this issue changed with design revisions such that upgrades to older bikes get the newer more stringent recommendation.
Alignment issues have in any case occasionally cropped up on older bikes and anyone with a technical understanding of PMAC motor controllers should be able to work out the risk and at least say that for the average owner, an occasional check and correction is good practice if you care about your bike’s durability and longevity.
Can you point me to additional information about alignment? Sometimes my 2016 fxs seems to want to go, but stops, then might seem to want to go backward, but stops, and repeats that sequence several times. Other times it works flawlessly. I turn off the key switch then turn it back on and it usually corrects itself. My nearest "dealer" is 200 miles away and an unsuccessful attempt to order parts(front brake lever) from them did not convince me that they were a place I would want to trust to service or repair my bike.
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That sounds like a serious problem in the programming, Fifty3. It probably needs to see a dealer.
-Crissa
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Can you point me to additional information about alignment? Sometimes my 2016 fxs seems to want to go, but stops, then might seem to want to go backward, but stops, and repeats that sequence several times. Other times it works flawlessly. I turn off the key switch then turn it back on and it usually corrects itself. My nearest "dealer" is 200 miles away and an unsuccessful attempt to order parts(front brake lever) from them did not convince me that they were a place I would want to trust to service or repair my bike.
Have you also noticed a loss of regen? I know that can be an early symptom of the motor being way out of alignment.
At that point, you should NOT ride the bike any more. Probably shouldn't anyway. It can run out of control and go at random speeds. Get it fixed or don't ride it. Those are your only safe choices.
-Don- Reno, NV
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SF Moto in San Francisco.
I just noticed the address. I was confused with Monroe Motors on Valencia. (https://www.munroemotors.com/) I don't think I recall a SF Moto. How long have they been around?
-Don- Reno, NV
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For what it is worth, and since I have already scanned, here is the bill for the first service on my SR/F. CHF is roughly the same as USD.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dQZ7BALt9h9GcUGv7DbM8mtb6TNOzFTgilrECI4IIKm_B3Tdf0cKsfldpfj8Jgfrm3jOO95qWcjevKEO_2w23G_rgpLn32L23_ErZPn8R85slteZdQ-uG_b7wjpsnCR2I90hA2bWg1pPUiIQkH02xS8w=w1094-h1327-no?authuser=0)
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SF Moto in San Francisco.
I just noticed the address. I was confused with Monroe Motors on Valencia. (https://www.munroemotors.com/) I don't think I recall a SF Moto. How long have they been around?
-Don- Reno, NV
I am not quite sure. I would say at least 10 years, but it might be longer than that. Motorcycle shops can sometimes move around once their leases expire. SF Moto sells all of the Japanese ICE brands and I think they are the only ones in the city that do. I recall a shop that also sold those brands on Valencia Street during the 1970's, but it might have been under a different owner. They might have changed their name when the franchise was bought by a new owner.
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I believe that the powertrain sensitivity to this issue changed with design revisions such that upgrades to older bikes get the newer more stringent recommendation.
Alignment issues have in any case occasionally cropped up on older bikes and anyone with a technical understanding of PMAC motor controllers should be able to work out the risk and at least say that for the average owner, an occasional check and correction is good practice if you care about your bike’s durability and longevity.
Can you point me to additional information about alignment? Sometimes my 2016 fxs seems to want to go, but stops, then might seem to want to go backward, but stops, and repeats that sequence several times. Other times it works flawlessly. I turn off the key switch then turn it back on and it usually corrects itself. My nearest "dealer" is 200 miles away and an unsuccessful attempt to order parts(front brake lever) from them did not convince me that they were a place I would want to trust to service or repair my bike.
Make a new thread, please. This may be unrelated, and troubleshooting it is going to muck up this thread even more.
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My dealer charged me a half hour to do the 600 mile service. I remember he said at the time they had to do it with Zero on the phone, but that Zero was releasing an update to dealers that would allow them to do it on their own.
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My dealer charged me a half hour to do the 600 mile service. I remember he said at the time they had to do it with Zero on the phone, but that Zero was releasing an update to dealers that would allow them to do it on their own.
Zero’s reliance on telepresence for troubleshooting has been a bottleneck for servicing, and generally bad as a requirement.
As an option, telepresence is a great idea for training and communication, but blocking a maintenance or servicing action on it just raises costs for everyone and clogs up service departments with bikes waiting on both the dealer and OEM tech to schedule availability.
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Zero’s reliance on telepresence for troubleshooting has been a bottleneck for servicing, and generally bad as a requirement.
As an option, telepresence is a great idea for training and communication, but blocking a maintenance or servicing action on it just raises costs for everyone and clogs up service departments with bikes waiting on both the dealer and OEM tech to schedule availability.
Oh I completely agree. My SR/F was an earlier bike, took delivery last June. I was under the assumption that was exactly why Zero was doing it that way. For training and to do some data collection before opening the flood gates. I'm not unhappy with the service and turnaround I've had. They had my bike for a few hours on the first service. I just had the BMS and harness done under warranty, and I got the bike back in about two weeks.
Are bigger dealerships impacted by it more?
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Dealerships are impacted by abysmal often wholly non-existant training and often their own disinterest. Randomly call dealerships, ask for the "Zero tech" and present any of the problems you read about here from OTA fails to motor bearings or loss of range. You will find that few have answers and most would just as soon prefer you not call and suggest another dealer more capable than them. This is not false modesty, they really don't know and don't want to deal with fixing Zeros... or waiting for Zero to pay them for hours upon hours of warranty work.