ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Harley LiveWire Forum => Topic started by: NEW2elec on July 10, 2020, 09:17:25 PM
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From Business
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/harley-davidsons-rewire-plan-starts-195629590.html
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From Business
The LW needs the rewire more than the company.
IMO, what they really need to do is to rewire the livewire's charging system. Especially their useless Level Two, which is really only good for home charging overnight.
Put a 6KW AC charger in there and that would make it seem like a real 30K$ bike. Perhaps they could also let it charge a bit faster on L3.
And there are a few other things they could do, such as add in a reverse.
IMO, a 30K$ bike should have more than just the name "Harley" going for it.
The rest of the bike seems quite decent, but it doesn't fit me all that well.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Sure, they can add another twenty pounds and a cubic foot somewhere on that bike, Don.
-Crissa
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Sure, they can add another twenty pounds and a cubic foot somewhere on that bike, Don.
Yeah, I realize it could be a design issue. But a 1.5 KW L2 charger on a 30K$ bike is unacceptable, IMO.
Notice Zero put 6 KW L2 chargers in their premium models of SR/F and SR/S.
BTW, I really like the SR/S they have here (https://www.eurocyclereno.com/inventory/2020-zero-srs-reno-nv-89502-10493998i)at the Reno Eurocycles. It comes stock with a centerstand (the only electric bike to have such?) and also comes with their added luggage.
I would be tempted to buy it if it were the premium model with the 6 KW charger, as if I really need to own 11 motorcycles.
But there is a simple formula for how many motorcycles I should own. It's N+1, where "N" is the number of motorcycles I currently own. ;D
-Don- Reno, NV
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So far no one who owns one seems to care about the Energica SS9 which does weigh 20 pounds more than the Livewire but also has reverse and 3kW L2 capability. Plus, you can equip the SS9 with locking hard luggage, something you can't do with the more expensive Harley.
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If DC chargers become as common as gas pumps, Harley's design would be perfect. The L2 chargers are really for urban or rural extremes, cheap batteries, and micro transport; or big batteries for home charging. While the CCS is currently the way to go for suburban, freeway, road trip use. You have the granny charger for when you go home and put away at night, and DC for when you go on road trips. Save the weight and complexity.
The design Harley came up with to basically skip L2 is perfect for a motorcycle... Five to ten years from now when DC chargers are everywhere. (Though their CCS is a bit slower than probably optimal.)
-Crissa
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Sure, they can add another twenty pounds and a cubic foot somewhere on that bike, Don.
Yeah, I realize it could be a design issue. But a 1.5 KW L2 charger on a 30K$ bike is unacceptable, IMO.
Notice Zero put 6 KW L2 chargers in their premium models of SR/F and SR/S.
BTW, I really like the SR/S they have here (https://www.eurocyclereno.com/inventory/2020-zero-srs-reno-nv-89502-10493998i)at the Reno Eurocycles. It comes stock with a centerstand (the only electric bike to have such?) and also comes with their added luggage.
I would be tempted to buy it if it were the premium model with the 6 KW charger, as if I really need to own 11 motorcycles.
But there is a simple formula for how many motorcycles I should own. It's N+1, where "N" is the number of motorcycles I currently own. ;D
-Don- Reno, NV
If I were you, I would just trade in the SR for the SR/S and get the 12kW charging capability (or 6kW + powertank). That would make for a great bike!
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So far no one who owns one seems to care about the Energica SS9 which does weigh 20 pounds more than the Livewire but also has reverse and 3kW L2 capability. Plus, you can equip the SS9 with locking hard luggage, something you can't do with the more expensive Harley.
One advantage of the LW is there are probably more dealers, even though not all HD shops will deal with the LW.
And I am not even sure about that, as in some areas, such as Tucson, AZ there is a Zero dealer, but no LW dealer. Not all that many HD shops deal with the LW.
I wonder how many buy the LW just because they like the name "Harley". Names mean nothing to me, either I like the model or I don't. And I don't care for the charging system on the LW. I also don't like no reverse. IMO, a 30K$ bike should have more going for it than the name "Harley".
And I wish they would start putting on centerstands on electric bikes. Or be able to at least add such. But I guess they have started that with the Zero SR/S.
-Don- Reno, NV
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If DC chargers become as common as gas pumps, Harley's design would be perfect. The L2 chargers are really for urban or rural extremes, cheap batteries, and micro transport; or big batteries for home charging. While the CCS is currently the way to go for suburban, freeway, road trip use. You have the granny charger for when you go home and put away at night, and DC for when you go on road trips. Save the weight and complexity.
The design Harley came up with to basically skip L2 is perfect for a motorcycle... Five to ten years from now when DC chargers are everywhere. (Though their CCS is a bit slower than probably optimal.)
-Crissa
Level 3 charging should only be used when necessary on a motorcycle battery. It's tough on the batteries. Perhaps less so on the LW because it uses a slower charge rate even on L3, especially when compared to Energica's non-plus models.
There will probably always be places where 240 VAC is available, but no DC charging. So reasonable AC charging will probably always be important.
Besides all that, what happens after my lifetime doesn't count!
-Don- Reno, NV
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If I were you, I would just trade in the SR for the SR/S and get the 12kW charging capability (or 6kW + powertank). That would make for a great bike!
Where in the USA can I charge at 12 KW from a J-1772? Most J-1772 charge stations are only capable of around 7 KW, some only around 5.5 KW or so.
The 12 KW is mainly for Europe and would be a waste here in the USA.
It would make more sense to get the 3 KW model if the charge tank is going to be added. But it would make even more sense to get the premium model and then add the power tank.
I now charge my 2017 SR at 6.3 KWs while one the road, but I bring a couple of external Elcon 2.5 KW chargers with me to do that. At home, I have charged my 2017 SR at 8.4 KW, by adding in a couple of Delta Q chargers, but that is too much to carry on the road for only ~30% less charge time.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Seems like the SR/S would just be a straight up swap and more convenient for you than the old SR. And you have the DS with the new battery for your S-platform use.
Anyhow, this is about the Harley. And I can see why they did what they did. It's a compromise, as everything is. Unless you get an Energica, and then you're compromising on weight and skill level.
-Crissa
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If I were you, I would just trade in the SR for the SR/S and get the 12kW charging capability (or 6kW + powertank). That would make for a great bike!
Where in the USA can I charge at 12 KW from a J-1772? Most J-1772 charge stations are only capable of around 7 KW, some only around 5.5 KW or so.
The 12 KW is mainly for Europe and would be a waste here in the USA.
I would make more sense to get the 3 KW model if the charge tank is going to be added. But it would make even more sense to get the premium model and then add the power tank.
I now charge my 2017 SR at 6.3 KWs while one the road, but I bring a couple of external Elcon 2.5 KW chargers with me to do that. At home, I have charged my 2017 SR at 8.4 KW, by adding in a couple of Delta Q chargers, but that is too much to carry on the road for only ~30% less charge time.
-Don- Reno, NV
True the only way to get 12kW of charging right now is through tesla destination chargers. So the premium plus PT would make sense. FWIW for S platform bikes with the chargetank, you can get upto 70A by dubJ'ing chargetank and the onboard 1.3kW charger. That way you do not have to carry any extra chargers with you and still get around 7.3-7.5kW of charging and thats what i do most of the times!
Seems like the SR/S would just be a straight up swap and more convenient for you than the old SR. And you have the DS with the new battery for your S-platform use.
Anyhow, this is about the Harley. And I can see why they did what they did. It's a compromise, as everything is. Unless you get an Energica, and then you're compromising on weight and skill level.
-Crissa
I would agree on this. For 30k, it would have to provide all optimal charging options or give a huge range compared to competitors and unfortunately it has neither. So its a bike in some sort of a different class.
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True the only way to get 12kW of charging right now is through tesla destination chargers. So the premium plus PT would make sense.
Then you need a 12 KW Tesla Tap and I don't think such is made. I think they only go up to 40 amps. 240 VAC times 40Amps=9,600 watts. Just right for the 3KW with a 6 KW charge tank.
Also, by far, most Tesla destination chargers are private, such as when staying at some motels. The only place I have seen them open to the public is at the Recharge Restaurant (https://rechargebarandgrill.com/), near where the Tesla batteries are made. I have charged there on my Energica.
You can see me and my bike here. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/146827)
With the Tesla Tap, (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07V7V2QT8?tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1) I can also charge my SR there. I assume a LW with the Tesla-Tap can also charge there.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Here is one with 50Amps: http://www.umc-j1772.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=99
This should give ~12kW at 240 VAC. I bought this one, but cannot test its full 12kW capacity on my Zero S obviously.
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Here is one with 50Amps: http://www.umc-j1772.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=99
This should give ~12kW at 240 VAC. I bought this one, but cannot test its full 12kW capacity on my Zero S obviously.
I just now purchased one form there also, yet it will probably be quite a while before I need one for 50 amps (12,000 watts). My Tesla Wall Connectors are good for 48 amps (11,520 watts).
TeslaTap 50 AMP - HIGH POWER TeslaTap 50 AMP - HIGH POWER 1 $189.95 $189.95
Sub-Total: $189.95
Priority Mail Express 2-Day: $39.55
Total: $229.50
I will soon own four Tesla Taps, but only this one is rated for 50 amps.
I can charge two bikes at the same time from it and easily get up to the 48 amp capacity.
I have my Energica set up so I can charge from 120 VAC as well as 240 VAC sockets as well as a Tesla Destination charger while on the road. I had to modify a granny cable to do all this and make it light and small to take with me.
One of these days they will make this stuff small for motorcycles but for now, I guess we have to modify our own to carry with us. I keep all my charging stuff in one side bag, so I can charge anywhere I can find AC (or DC CCS).
I don't feel too bad about this info. being in the LW section, because some LW owners may have a need for such as well.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Right, this is useful info in general. Also, in one of a Zero owner's youtube videos featuring Morgan, Morgan showed a teslatap which was pretty much the same size as the tesla's J1772 -> tesla adapter. Would be awesome if this can be made available to all.
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Right, this is useful info in general. Also, in one of a Zero owner's youtube videos featuring Morgan, Morgan showed a teslatap which was pretty much the same size as the tesla's J1772 -> tesla adapter. Would be awesome if this can be made available to all.
Here (below) is the granny cable that I take with my Energica. This way, I can charge at 3 KW, from 240 VAC outlets, such as in Genoa, NV or even from the 120 VAC outlet at the Target store near there with my Energica at 1.5 KW.
I will soon make another for my Zeros, so I can charge it also from 240 VAC outlets at 6.3 KW, with my external chargers. A 240 VAC outlet charges the same as a J-1772.
Notice the output side is very much shortened. Much lighter and much smaller. The input side doesn't matter how long it is as it will connect to a common 120 VAC extension cord (not shown). At the end of it, I have an adapter for 240VAC which I feed the 120 VAC extension cord with. The common 120 VAC extension cord doesn't even get the slightest bit warm from 240 VAC running 3KW to the bike. With this and also a Tesla Tap I can pretty much charge anywhere possible while on the road.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Hey, Don, why don't you make a thread about your taps and their wiring in https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?board=29.0 ?
A thread of how we're doing our charging setups would probably be useful.
-Crissa
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Hey, Don, why don't you make a thread about your taps and their wiring in https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?board=29.0 ?
A thread of how we're doing our charging setups would probably be useful.
-Crissa
I figure everybody reads almost every message in this forum anyway, as it's not that busy. Most of here in the LW secion do NOT own LWs, like you and me.
BTW, a granny cable is not needed for my Zeros, of course, but I am already set up to use such with my external chargers and J1772 adapter from Tucson EV.
But the info, here should be useful for anybody who wants to charge from outlets on the road from bikes that come with heavy long granny cables, such as the LW, Energica, SR/F and SR/S, etc.
I assume some day the bikes will come with a motorcycle version. But for now, we have to make our own. Fairly easy to modify the cable it comes with.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Yeah, but if anyone new shows up, or someone is only interested in certain things, they won't just read all the old messages to find stuff.
-Crissa
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Yeah, but if anyone new shows up, or someone is only interested in certain things, they won't just read all the old messages to find stuff.-Crissa
I just modified another tonight, since I discovered I have another granny cable here.
I took your advice and posted in the "Mods and Hacks" section, also showing the one I modified around an hour ago.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I think DonTom has forgotten what it's like to be fully employed.
I barely keep track of threads around here, picking what I pay attention to for community assistance, and I think it's important to label threads so people can decide what to pay attention to and not lose track of interesting information.
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Level 3 charging should only be used when necessary on a motorcycle battery. It's tough on the batteries. Perhaps less so on the LW because it uses a slower charge rate even on L3, especially when compared to Energica's non-plus models.
The good thing about DCFC with Energicas is you can lower the amp limit! I don't know of any other EV which does this.
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The good thing about DCFC with Energicas is you can lower the amp limit! I don't know of any other EV which does this.
My Tesla can be set to charge as low as five amps.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Occasional fast charging and temperature stabilized charging does not damage the battery, Don.
Not all passively cooled batteries have had reliability problems with fast charging. It's mostly the Leaf that had the problems.
Zeros are just physically smaller and the battery is more exposed to the air than a pack under a car. And that's why the new packs have vertical vanes, too. Energicas solve this by being heavier and more complex.
-Crissa
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My Tesla can be set to charge as low as five amps.
-Don- Reno, NV
I own a Model 3 Performance, and I cannot change the amps when supercharging. Energica allows you to adjust the amps while DC fast charging, and I haven't seen that option in any other vehicle.
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Occasional fast charging and temperature stabilized charging does not damage the battery, Don.
Be sure to let Energica know so they can correct their owner's manual. It says always use AC charging when there is a choice.
It's tough on a motorcycle battery to charge at 25 KW..
-Don- Reno, NV
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I own a Model 3 Performance, and I cannot change the amps when supercharging. Energica allows you to adjust the amps while DC fast charging, and I haven't seen that option in any other vehicle.
Oh, I have never tried to use either.
I don't know if there is much point in adjusting the rate of DC fast charging. That is the job of the BMS and charger program. Lowering it just means you pay more as CCS chargers normally charge for the time as well as the number of KWHs added.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Be sure to let Energica know so they can correct their owner's manual. It says always use AC charging when there is a choice.
Irrelevant to my statement. Tesla says never to charge off of a generator, too. Statements in the manual are to avoid liability, not specifically evidence based.
It's tough on a motorcycle battery to charge at 25 KW.
Evidence not provided.
-Crissa
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Evidence not provided.
Agreed. We can't expect all manufacturers to make the same mistake Nissan did with their Leaf batteries destroying themselves.
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Tesla says never to charge off of a generator, too.
And in many cases they are correct. But it's because the waveshape out of some generators can damage the chargers used in EVs. Some are much better than others. Some HFT generators I would not use for anything other than lights. But I checked the waveshape and frequency of the Onan generator output in my RV and it is a perfect sinewave and at 60.0 hz until 3.5 KW where it slows down a bit, but that is its max spec anyway. So I use it to charge my Zero (up to 2.4 KW) without issues during many of my RV trips in locations where there is no other juice. I would never just connect a Zero to a generator without checking the waveform & frequency first. Tesla writes their manuals for the average non-technical person, so they will simply say do not do such. But they also realize that those who can and know how to check a generator output waveshape will know to ignore such info from Tesla or Zero, etc. if it checks okay, as mine did.
BTW, Tesla has their own portable diesel generators to charge Teslas with. They used to have a temporary one or two on I-5 on a very crowded weekend to have a couple of quick extra charge stations where they thought they will probably be needed. The gas companies and other anti EVers loved to make a big joke out of that!
Also see here. (https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2019/03/tesla-factory-store-uses-diesel-generators-to-recharge-slow-moving-model-3-inventory/)
So even Tesla themselves charge their own cars via generator. But no doubt they are as clean as can be. But perhaps the L3 don't even count as that is DC anyway. But it's okay to use a clean generator on L2 (or L1) as well, as long as the waveshape is about as clean as the AC in your home.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Evidence not provided.
-Crissa
The last line of the below quote from Page 96 of the Energica manual is all the evidence I need.
"WARNING! Porolonged usage of DC charging mode and/or using this mode only may stress the batteries and reduce battery life.
We recommend using both DC and AC modes to charge the battery, preferring AC mode when possible."
-Don- Reno, NV
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Again, evidence not provided, Don.
So no, and no.
-Crissa
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Again, evidence not provided, Don.
So no, and no.
-Crissa
So be sure to tell Energica!
-Don-
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Are you done with fallacies, Don?
-Crissa
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Don isn't making the allegation. He is quoting Energica's owner's manual. I'm reasonably sure a company the size of Energica has qualified engineers AND lawyers who recommended that addition to the owner's manual which is in WRITING. Any issues with those statements should be taken up with the engineers and legal team at Energica. Don has no need to defend a third-party documented warning. The smart thing for him to do is to take their advice as it was given for a REASON. I know if I spend the kind of money Energica charges for their bikes I'd heed EVERY warning they gave me. Hell, I even pay attention to all the warnings in the Zero owner's manual.
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Don isn't making the allegation. He is quoting Energica's owner's manual. I'm reasonably sure a company the size of Energica has qualified engineers AND lawyers who recommended that addition to the owner's manual which is in WRITING. Any issues with those statements should be taken up with the engineers and legal team at Energica. Don has no need to defend a third-party documented warning. The smart thing for him to do is to take their advice as it was given for a REASON. I know if I spend the kind of money Energica charges for their bikes I'd heed EVERY warning they gave me. Hell, I even pay attention to all the warnings in the Zero owner's manual.
And there is little doubt the reason Energica won't give a 5 year warranty on their batteries as Zero does, is because of the CCS charging capability at above 25 KW. They know people buy Energicas mainly for the CCS charging, but that comes at a price.
I find it amazing that a Energica battery can safely be charged just above 25 KW, which is above 2C. But more life expectantly if charged at 3 KW or less is to be expected. A lot less heat in the battery at 3 KW.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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Neither Energica's manual nor Don has provided evidence of Don's claim that DC charging is bad for the battery.
-Crissa
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It's not Don's claim, it is Energica's statement from their manual.
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Neither Energica's manual nor Don has provided evidence of Don's claim that DC charging is bad for the battery.
-Crissa
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Again, evidence not provided, Don.
So no, and no.
-Crissa
"In addition to external heat potentially shortening the usable life of a battery, operating batteries at high charge and discharge rates can have another negative impact. That is particularly true for fast DC charging a battery pack at a rate of 50 kW for as little as 30 minutes (the expected time to charge a BEV 80%). If done every day, that would generate enough heat to reduce the battery’s capacity. "
See here. (https://www.plugincars.com/lithium-ion-batteries-can%E2%80%99t-stand-heat-122447.html)
-Don- Reno, NV
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Neither Energica's manual nor Don has provided evidence of Don's claim that DC charging is bad for the battery.
-Crissa
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You could, you know, just take their word for it. I doubt they put it in their manual for a laugh at owners' expense.
Cas :)
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Their word is 'may'. Which means they don't know all the edge cases so here they're giving advice because they don't want to be more technical or be wrong.
And if you do fastest charge every night, before putting it away, well, yeah. But it's not the charging doing it, is it? It's leaving it charged all night instead of spending half as much time (or less) full.
There's too many moving parts here. But it's incorrect to just say one type of charging is bad for the cells, there's no evidence for it.
-Crissa
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But it's incorrect to just say one type of charging is bad for the cells, there's no evidence for it.
IOW, you don't buy that to charge every day to the very limit of their upper spec decreases the life expectancy lithium-ion and lithium polymer EV batteries.
Can you find just one link anywhere that agrees with you?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Noted, Don, that you didn't support your position.
I can find articles discussing dendrite formation under high charging, but all of those also are focused on charging to full. And cell size isn't pack size. And discharge temperature isn't charging temperature. They all matter and they all lead to degradation.
The danger from dc charging is going to be more leaving the pack in an extreme soc position more than the charging itself.
If you're not charging at top twenty percent or leaving it sitting at that bottom, then no, there's no evidence the higher charging does more damage than riding on the freeway. There is some lab evidence that babying a pack can double its life... But no such evidence in a practical setting. Just because we know that hitting the track all the time can reduce battery life does not mean avoiding dc charging will further increase the lifetime of the pack.
So warning people away from it is needless. Unless they're speed junkies.
-Crissa
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Then why do Energica warn people away from it, when it's a key selling point of their range?
Anyways... AIUI, the problem was that the heat caused by DCFC was the other issue apart from dendrites. Tesla worked around with with state of the art cooling and software and it's unlikely Energica have either as nobody else in the industry is even close to Tesla in battery tech.
Cas :)
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There is no question that Energica could do liquid cooling on their battery but the trade-off being an increase in size, weight and price just so you could charge a few minutes faster under high temperature conditions. High temps from my experience being in the 90s. That is when multiple DCFC seemed to start slowing down due to the battery getting warm. I am really not sure the trade-offs are worth it. Others may disagree.
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I wonder what the optimal speed & power demand on the Energica battery pack is best for cooling it after DCFC. Last weekend, it was 95f while I fast charged to 96%, and the battery temp indicator never went from yellow to green while driving 70 mph with about 13 kW of power demand on the highway. Maybe if I had dropped my speed down to 60 mph it would cool faster since I'd drastically reduce the power demand on the battery pack.
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Here is the latest regarding H-D's marketing and financial "rewire" plan. No mention of Livewire plans or production:
https://www.motorcycle.com/features/harley-davidson-provides-update-on-rewire-new-hardwire-plan-coming-in-q4.html
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Here is the latest new electric bike from H-D. They certainly are moving quickly to get into the e-bike market. ::) :
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2020/10/28/harley-davidson-moves-quickly-launch-new-e-bicycle-brand/3746133001/
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Heh :-) just read the whole thread about Harley starting a restructure, except it's about charging. ;)
One of the things that attracted me to the LV was the 5 year warranty as well as the dealer support - down here there is zero Zero and Energica support. Overnight charging is no big deal; my gas bikes can go touring. What I really liked about the LW pre-purchase turned out to be the same things I like about it now I own one: the acceleration, the lean angle, the finish, and the quiet. I knew there was no Level 2 charging then and I don't need it now. I have made the decision to not use Level 3 unless I am stuck somewhere, mainly because the manual says not to. Manuals say a lot of things and it can be hard to differentiate the lawyerly from the engineering admonitions. I assume though that the dealer's techs can tell if I had charged Level 3 more than the 1:4 ratio recommended. Another reason IMO not to overdo it.
As for "wouldn't it be great if..." - yeah, but if we waited for the perfect machine we would never ride. Heck, just not having at my age to deal with drum brakes and carb jets and kick starts for years already is a major plus!
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They would have to prove that you specific actions caused the damage, not that you took said actions. Which would be hard to do.
-Crissa
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Neither Energica's manual nor Don has provided evidence of Don's claim that DC charging is bad for the battery.
-Crissa
Actually, I did. The max safe cell temperature I listed here. The "yellow" on the Energica is ABOVE that safe cell temperature and it is the norm to be yellow right after a fast DC charge but NEVER during an AC charge.
The excess heat slowly does damage. And that comes from those battery engineers who designed the cells, and they should know.
That doesn't mean one shouldn't fast charge. Just don't do such except when necessary.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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They would have to prove that you specific actions caused the damage, not that you took said actions. Which would be hard to do.
-Crissa
Not difficult at all when everything you do to the bike is written into a log.
When I had my bad battery replaced under warranty on my DS, the shop never tested the battery in anyway at all. All they did is sent the logs to the Zero factory and the factory was able to determine that my battery was defective through no fault of my own.
Want proof? It's easy. Discharge a new Zero battery to 0 SOC wait two or three days and then charge it to full.
Then if the battery goes bad, try to get a warranty replacement! Good luck, as they will know you broke the terms of the warranty.
Not a lot of privacy on electric motorcycles!
-Don- Auburn, CA
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They would have to prove that you specific actions caused the damage, not that you took said actions. Which would be hard to do.
Not difficult at all when everything you do to the bike is written into a log.
No, that would prove that it happened. Not that it was damaging. A chance isn't proof.
Besides, warranty terms which void it under a normal, expected range of use are not allowed.
-Crissa
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No, that would prove that it happened. Not that it was damaging. A chance isn't proof.
Besides, warranty terms which void it under a normal, expected range of use are not allowed.
-Crissa
The battery warranty is void as soon as you leave it discharged for more than 24 hours, even if nothing is proved other than that. Read you Zero manual under "charging". All Zeros I have checked have these words:
"CAUTION: Failure to follow the charging guidelines could
damage the power pack and void your power pack warranty"
" If the power pack is fully discharged, it must be charged
within 24 hours to prevent damage to the power pack."
See here (http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/resources/owners-manuals/2020/2020-Zero-Owners-Manual-SRS.pdf), page 1.3
-Don- Auburn, CA
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It doesn't matter what the warranty says. Warranty terms cannot violate the law.
And the law says they have to prove your use or modifications caused the specific damage and are not an expected use of the device.
Leaving it discharged is pretty straightforward. That damage came from charging it vs DC fast charging? A bit fuzzier.
-Crissa