ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: domingo3 on June 09, 2020, 02:52:06 PM
-
A picture is worth a thousand words here. Any concerns?
I noticed the outside of the surface on my belt has lost some "mini teeth" - not sure what they're called or if they serve a purpose. There are a few other points with the same kind of loss The actual teeth that drive the bike are all intact.
(http://. https://postimg.cc/qg2NjDPN)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FFB0F2GV/IMG-20200608-050155.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
-
I had that EXACT same thing happen to me!! The outside rubber was all dried out and cracking off. We discovered it when we were replacing my tires. I considered it a warranty issue but Zero disagreed so I had to get a new belt out of my own pocket. I've NEVER had to replace a belt on a motorcycle before. Mine had less than 10,000 miles on it and that's just WRONG. I posted a similar photo here when it happened.
For reference, I've owned four bikes previously with belt drives and when I got rid of them they all had their original belts in EXCELLENT condition:
2000 Buell M2 Cyclone: 38,345
2006 Buell XB12Ss: 25,876
2009 Buell 1125R: 18.884
2016 Zero S: 17,897
You'll note that last bike was a Zero, and it had the thinner belt that was replaced with the supposedly BETTER one that failed on me in a little more than half the mileage I had on the older design.
-
Zero FXS 2020: 375 miles >:(
-
Replace it when convenient so you don't have to do it when it's inconvenient. Certainly change it when you need a new rear tire. You can get a replacement and a spare from your local dealer, or one that's online like AF1 Racing. Any motorcycle mechanic should be able to make the swap.
-
If you replace it now, you will have a spare for emergencies in the future while you wait for a new one if dealer doesn't have in stock
-
Maybe it's just me, but I probably wouldn't reuse a belt that is falling apart.
-
A picture is worth a thousand words here. Any concerns?
IMO, it's probably more cosmetic than actual damage, but I ain't sure. I figure it's just a covering over the belt and the covering has nothing to do with its strength. But does it help protect the belt from something? I have no idea.
But I would like to know how many miles that belt has on it.
Both of my Zeros have around 10K miles and so far no belt problems.
I know on my Harley, the belt is supposed to be changed at 70K miles. I am not sure about the Zeros. My 1,000 lb Harley has one hell of a belt compared to Zeros.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Yes, protects it from UV damage which makes plastics fragile.
-Crissa
-
It is also protecting the belt fabric from outside debris. Once it is exposed it becomes much more liable to getting damaged by road debris. Once the kevlar/carbon fiber fabric gets damaged it becomes substantially weaker and much more prone to snapping.
I've had two other bikes with Gates belts and this is the first time I've ever seen anything like this (the other two bikes used Goodyear belts).
-
There's no way Zero could reasonably expect to exclude this from a warranty claim. It looks clearly to be the result of manufacturing defect, which I'm fairly sure is covered under most statutory consumer protection laws (although I'm not sure what the situation is in the States, perhaps it's crappier over there?)
Even if it weren't covered Zero would be insane not to replace the belt under warranty just for goodwill. I can 100% categorically state that on the evidence presented in this thread alone (let alone all the other threads and videos of Zero belt failures) that this is an absolute showstopper to me ever buying a Zero and I don't think I'm the only one.
Cas :)
-
Here is a link to my report of the same issue:
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9601.msg85390
-
There's no way Zero could reasonably expect to exclude this from a warranty claim. It looks clearly to be the result of manufacturing defect, which I'm fairly sure is covered under most statutory consumer protection laws (although I'm not sure what the situation is in the States, perhaps it's crappier over there?)
Even if it weren't covered Zero would be insane not to replace the belt under warranty just for goodwill. I can 100% categorically state that on the evidence presented in this thread alone (let alone all the other threads and videos of Zero belt failures) that this is an absolute showstopper to me ever buying a Zero and I don't think I'm the only one.
Cas :)
I think because it's classified as a wear item and not manufacturered by Zero it's not up to them to decide how long it should last, what could cause it to fail, and it's not up to them to replace it (legally, it would be nice of them to do so though). Take it up with Gates, if your tyres fail contact Pirelli, and if your brake pads delaminate contact whoever the OEM is for those.
It is also protecting the belt fabric from outside debris. Once it is exposed it becomes much more liable to getting damaged by road debris. Once the kevlar/carbon fiber fabric gets damaged it becomes substantially weaker and much more prone to snapping.
I've had two other bikes with Gates belts and this is the first time I've ever seen anything like this (the other two bikes used Goodyear belts).
In addition to that there's the possibility that the kevlar could be damaged by UV light, so even if it's not ridden on but instead kept as a spare it might still might not be any good.
-
Yes, protects it from UV damage which makes plastics fragile.
-Crissa
Just keep that section of the belt face down when parked. :)
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Whoops, looks like I missed Crissa's post. From the photo Domingo posted it looks like there's at least one other section of belt that's damaged, wouldn't surprise me if the entire outer layer starts coming away. If you really wanted to save the belt I suppose you could coat it in some black silicone, but for how much a new belt costs it's really not worth the risk.
-
Whoops, looks like I missed Crissa's post. From the photo Domingo posted it looks like there's at least one other section of belt that's damaged, wouldn't surprise me if the entire outer layer starts coming away. If you really wanted to save the belt I suppose you could coat it in some black silicone, but for how much a new belt costs it's really not worth the risk.
That is what I had observed in my case. The entire outer casing was dried and cracking. There were several spots where the kevlar/carbon belt was completely exposed but that chunk in the photo was the largest. Coincidentally, it appears to be the same size as the chunk out of mine too.
-
Thanks for all the replies. To answer a couple of things brought up, the bike has 9500 miles. It is parked indoors both at work and at home. I ride almost exclusively on the highway, acceleratiing fast and riding fast. No jumping curbs, offroading or hooning. I haven't measured them, but the other areas look like their length is identical.
-
...........I haven't measured them, but the other areas look like their length is identical.
I’m thinking that’s not a coincidence but rather a function of the belt having to go around the smallest diameter of the motor pulley & how that acts on the belt stretching the outer part while compressing the inner.
-
On Facebook someone had postulated that the front pulley had too small of a diameter for the belt and that was causing undue strain on the belt because of that. It makes sense as the front pulleys on all three of my Buells were much bigger.
I think the reason the belt on my 2016 S was due to the fact that the belt was a lot thinner so the outer casing wasn't stressed as much as the newer, thicker belts. If that is the case, then it isn't a manufacturing defect as much as it is a design flaw. In order to keep the gear ratio the same, any increase in the size of the front pulley would require a corresponding increase in the size of the rear pulley so maybe a different belt design would be the answer? I don't know... I'm not an engineer.
-
I think the reason the belt on my 2016 S was due to the fact that the belt was a lot thinner so the outer casing wasn't stressed as much as the newer, thicker belts. If that is the case, then it isn't a manufacturing defect as much as it is a design flaw. In order to keep the gear ratio the same, any increase in the size of the front pulley would require a corresponding increase in the size of the rear pulley so maybe a different belt design would be the answer? I don't know... I'm not an engineer.
100% agree. I think a lot of the decisions made by Zero engineers are arbitrary. It's clear they know what they're doing in some cases, and in others, not so much. The fault lies in this being a new kind of motorcycle and Zero being a new company without R&D history.
-
I would've hoped that the Gates engineers would've seen this problem though. From what I can tell, this belt was designed specifically for Zero and no one else...
-
If there's a pattern to it, sounds like a manufacture issue.
-Crissa
-
I would've hoped that the Gates engineers would've seen this problem though. From what I can tell, this belt was designed specifically for Zero and no one else...
I doubt the belt was designed specifically for Zero. https://www.gates.com/us/en/power-transmission/synchronous-belts.html
The exact/unique size specifications?
Certainly.
-
It's been awhile but, when I tried to cross-reference the part number on the Gates site, it indicated "Zero" and nothing else.
-
I coulda swore I saw an interview where Zero's CEO said it was made for them specifically.
-Crissa
-
It's been awhile but, when I tried to cross-reference the part number on the Gates site, it indicated "Zero" and nothing else.
Zero belt is 11mm pitch, and on the Gates site, can't find anything smaller than 14mm pitch, so obviously was made for Zero to accommodate the small sprocket, but, maybe, they pushed the limits a little too far ?
-
It's been awhile but, when I tried to cross-reference the part number on the Gates site, it indicated "Zero" and nothing else.
Zero belt is 11mm pitch, and on the Gates site, can't find anything smaller than 14mm pitch, so obviously was made for Zero to accommodate the small sprocket, but, maybe, they pushed the limits a little too far ?
They have at least 5, 8, and 19mm listed from what I could find (a lot of the tables are fucked up and I think put the total tooth count in place of the pitch) and they make 11mm pitch belts for bicycles. The smallest bicycle sprocket I could find is 19t and the 7.2 Zeros use 18t but the 14.4s use 20t. Of course this doesn't mean it's not custom, but it's unlikely to be something vastly different to other belts Gates have made.
-
I coulda swore I saw an interview where Zero's CEO said it was made for them specifically.
-Crissa
Not the CEO... Abe Askenzie the CTO. And I remember that too. In the interview he'd said when he first got to Zero they were using a chain drive and he really hated the way they sounded. He was the one who pushed for a belt drive. He had just come over from working at Buell after Harley shut them down so he was well aware of the benefits of a belt drive.
-
What if... they had two belts. Hmm.
Cas :)
-
Two motors, one tuned for low speed, the other tuned for higher speeds, but both can work at once for maximum zoom.
-
Enough speculation. Barring a belt redesign, what are our options NOW? The problem appears to be the rubber on the outside of the belt drying and cracking. Would occasionally treating the OUTSIDE (NOT the inside) of the belt with Armor All prevent this drying from occurring? You don't want to put it on the inside because the moisture would allow it to retain dirt and grit that would be ground into the rubber every time the teeth pass over the pulleys. But on the outside of the belt? I can't think of any harm there. What do you all think? Maybe once a week wet a cloth with Armor All, put the bike up on a track stand and just use that cloth to wipe over the outside of the belt. I wouldn't recommend spraying it directly onto the belt because that would risk it splashing over on to the teeth.
Thoughts?
-
Enough speculation. Barring a belt redesign, what are our options NOW? The problem appears to be the rubber on the outside of the belt drying and cracking. Would occasionally treating the OUTSIDE (NOT the inside) of the belt with Armor All prevent this drying from occurring? You don't want to put it on the inside because the moisture would allow it to retain dirt and grit that would be ground into the rubber every time the teeth pass over the pulleys. But on the outside of the belt? I can't think of any harm there. What do you all think? Maybe once a week wet a cloth with Armor All, put the bike up on a track stand and just use that cloth to wipe over the outside of the belt. I wouldn't recommend spraying it directly onto the belt because that would risk it splashing over on to the teeth.
Thoughts?
Is this a tactic Harley owners do? Or other bikes with belts?
-
I never even looked at the belt on either of my F800STs. Perhaps the simple solution is just to buy BMW belts and pulleys.
Cas :)
-
It wasn't ever necessary on any of my other belt-driven bikes. Remember what I posted earlier. Tens of thousands of miles on the original belts; never replace a belt ever. This is the very first time I've ever seen anything like this so I'm just spit-balling. I really don't want to have to replace the belt every 9K+ miles so I'm looking for ideas.
What the hell... I'm going to try it myself and see what happens...
-
It says not to treat the belt with anything other than mild soap.
I wonder if some of these bikes are getting exposed to something unexpected or the belts have faults in them Zero is unaware of.
-Crissa
-
It says not to treat the belt with anything other than mild soap.
I wonder if some of these bikes are getting exposed to something unexpected or the belts have faults in them Zero is unaware of.
-Crissa
Both the OP and I garage our bikes. From what he said, his bike spends less time in the sun than mine but this deterioration occurred to both of us around the same mileage. Other than prolonged exposure to sunlight or petrochemicals I don't know what would age the rubber this way.
-
Yeah, like spilled brake fluid or some sort of road material... There's lots of weird possibilities.
It's even possible your drive leads you past some source of alkaline or acidic dust or some sort of chemical that's just not otherwise been thought about.
And even tiny things like a change in temperature in manufacture could have created a weak point that didn't show up in testing and some bad belts got out. It's just hard to know.
-Crissa