ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: valnar on May 27, 2020, 04:10:05 AM
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New'ish bike with less than 500 miles. Accelerating up a slight hill to maybe 50Mph in a custom mode that is somewhere between ECO and Sport (71% torque setting). 90 degrees hot day in Ohio. No rain, no rocks, no slippage. Snapped right off. I pushed it a mile to somewhere safe.
I called a friend to get it towed to my house. Does anyone know if this is a warranty part when less than a year old?
-Robert
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Sometimes you can get them to warrantee it, but usually it's considered a consumable.
Sounds like a perfect traction day ^-^
-Crissa
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You snapped the wide belt? I think that’s the first 17mm that I’ve heard of snapping on any model.
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New'ish bike with less than 500 miles. Accelerating up a slight hill to maybe 50Mph in a custom mode that is somewhere between ECO and Sport (71% torque setting). 90 degrees hot day in Ohio. No rain, no rocks, no slippage. Snapped right off. I pushed it a mile to somewhere safe.
I called a friend to get it towed to my house. Does anyone know if this is a warranty part when less than a year old?
-Robert
I don't think the belt is covered under warranty.
I think the reason most belts snap on bikes with few miles is because the belt is too tight. I hear the belt can get even tighter with a few miles on it (even though most would expect it to get looser) and my guess is that is what causes it to snap. I hear more about belts snapping on low mile bikes that those with many miles, unless a reason is discovered (such as a rock between belt and sprocket, etc.).
I check my belts simply by hand fairly often. That's just to make sure it feels around normal and not extra tight. I have more than 10K miles on my DS and just under 10K miles on my SR. No belt problems so far.
Once in a great while, I will use my belt gauge, or perhaps the Zero Belt app, but I am so used to simply knowing what it should feel like, I use no tools and just go for the quick hand check.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I did buy a spare belt for just such an occasion, but was hoping I didn't have to use it just yet. Looks like I'll learn how to replace my first motorcycle belt. Any tips? I see there is a YT video on it.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Gen2/Drive_Belt_Replacement_Procedure (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Gen2/Drive_Belt_Replacement_Procedure)
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It took me about a year and 3500 miles to snap the belt on my '18 FXS. In my case it was clearly a traction issue. Hit a slick manhole cover under power. That coupled with a good scare on a wet metal plate, I pay even more attention to the surfaces I ride on.
The torque is nice on dry surfaces, but a dangerous in other places.
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You snapped the wide belt? I think that’s the first 17mm that I’ve heard of snapping on any model.
I have heard of it snapping on a brand new SR/F with the even wider belt. A NEW one.
Now you have also. (https://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycles/comments/cnvm0e/i_broke_a_22000_zero_srf_electric_motorcycle/)
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Really got to wonder if these belts are not correctly tensioned by the dealer upon delivery. There are reports of people going 10's of thousands of miles on the factory belt, and some snap before 1000 miles. One of the first things I did when I got my '18 FX was to adjust the belt tension. It has seen 5000 miles of aggressive riding from 30F to over 100F with FXS wheels / tires on pavement and I recently put D606 knobbies on the FX rims, and have ~ 600 miles of gravel and single track on them. 7300 miles total on the factory belt. I did buy an extra one just in case but luckily it's still in storage.
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Really got to wonder if these belts are not correctly tensioned by the dealer upon delivery. There are reports of people going 10's of thousands of miles on the factory belt, and some snap before 1000 miles. One of the first things I did when I got my '18 FX was to adjust the belt tension. It has seen 5000 miles of aggressive riding from 30F to over 100F with FXS wheels / tires on pavement and I recently put D606 knobbies on the FX rims, and have ~ 600 miles of gravel and single track on them. 7300 miles total on the factory belt. I did buy an extra one just in case but luckily it's still in storage.
No doubt that is a big part of it. Don't assume dealers know what they are doing.
I would advise anybody who buys a new belt driven bike to check the belt as soon as they get the bike home and then check it again every few hundred miles for a while. Check both alignment and tension.
It could be they put the belt on at the tight end of spec and then it became tighter. I don't remember where I got the info about the new belts getting tighter instead of looser in a few hundred miles. Perhaps I read it here. But too tight is a lot worse than too loose, so if in doubt go more towards the loose.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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My 2016 came with a loud whine and the belt tension off the scale.
But in case it was a rock, maybe also check the sprocket teeth for damage.
A belt expert might be able to tell what happened by looking at the belt damage.
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I wish I found the belt then. It's on the side of the road somewhere. I'd be curious as well.
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Hopefully I'll put it on in the next couple days, or a week at the latest. I bought the Gates 91107 Belt Tension Tester from Amazon and downloaded the Carbon Drive app for my iPhone. What should the app say is correct when all is done? Any special settings I should configure in the app?
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The belt on my 2018 S was very tight as it came from the factory. Right at the upper range of tension. But it has not caused me any problems and I have not adjusted it since I bought the bike. Since then the tension has lessened a little and it is now in the middle of the range on my cheap mechanical gauge. My motto is if things are working right, leave them alone. ;)
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Hopefully I'll put it on in the next couple days, or a week at the latest. I bought the Gates 91107 Belt Tension Tester from Amazon and downloaded the Carbon Drive app for my iPhone. What should the app say is correct when all is done? Any special settings I should configure in the app?
11 mm 42.5 Hz to 73.6 Hz is spec. Go for around 60 hz.
The info is in your owner's manual. (https://media.zeromotorcycles.com/resources/owners-manuals/2017/2017-Zero-Owners-Manual-FX-FXS.pdf) Page 6-18 and 6-19.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I bought my spare belt in April when AF1 had five in stock. I just bought a spare to replace my 'spare' Lol. Now they have one. I wonder if COVID is affecting supply, in case anyone else wanted to hop on that last one.
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I bought my spare belt in April when AF1 had five in stock. I just bought a spare to replace my 'spare' Lol. Now they have one. I wonder if COVID is affecting supply, in case anyone else wanted to hop on that last one.
I have ordered a few motorcycle parts and accessories recently from Amazon, Bike Bandit and Revzilla. About 50% of the items that I have ordered were said to be in stock on their computer systems and were later canceled because when they looked in the warehouse there were none to be found. In the case of Bike Bandit, I ordered two items and they never shipped. After waiting three weeks, I gave up and canceled my order. And so it goes during the Covid-19 situation. :(
I have no idea what the situation is with AF1, but I bet they have a better idea of what they actually have in their warehouse than the big internet vendors.
I should also add that Revzilla's customer service staff was far and away the most apologetic of the bunch when they canceled my order. I received a personal message saying that the item that I ordered was not available in their warehouse and the vendor was not shipping any of more of their products at this time.
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When AF1 found they didn't have the part I wanted, they reached out to me and Zero to get it.
So while they're a bit slower than modern online retailers, they're still pretty good.
My dealer was a little faster, but they don't keep stuff in stock and have to wait for Zero. Which last fall was a little iffy.
-Crissa
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A friend and I got the belt on last night. It took over 3 hours. Even with ratchet straps (per the video) it was impossible to compress the spring and lineup the swingarm to put those bolts back in. We had to take off the monoshock bottom bolt to let it loose before we could put it back together.
Belt is on, but it's making a weird noise. Worse than when I first bought it. I'm not sure if the tension is correct because the Carbon Drive iPhone app and belt tension meter give wildly different results. I'm also not sure it's perfectly straight as I spin the back wheel and I don't want to fuss with it anymore. We were both exhausted after trying to muscle everything back together.
I'm going to take it to my dealer to get it all checked out. This way if they make it perfect (hopefully!) I can take those measurements again and know what it's supposed to show.
The design of this bike to putting on a belt really sucks. 'Maybe it's easier with the S models. For this reason alone, I'm seriously tempted to get the chain kit.
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Maybe it's easier with the S models.
Only the SR/F and the SR/S have a new design that doesn't require to take the swing arm off in order to change the belt.
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Belt is on, but it's making a weird noise. Worse than when I first bought it. I'm not sure if the tension is correct because the Carbon Drive iPhone app and belt tension meter give wildly different results. I'm also not sure it's perfectly straight as I spin the back wheel and I don't want to fuss with it anymore.
The belt have to be 1mm (a credid card thickness ) away from the lip of the wheel sprocket. The mechanical tool should give you the best reading.
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And don't forget that new belts do tend to be noisy until they break in, which might take a few hundred miles. The belt on my 2018 S required almost 1000 miles before it finally became completely quiet and no longer made a "groaning" noise.
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One other little factoid that I forgot about until now. After I tested the new belt, my display is having a weird anomaly.
See the display LCD. The top section of the time and bottom section of the battery percentage fades out when putting on the throttle. At standstill, it comes back. I'm fairly certain I put back any grounding wires attached to the back half of the bike, so this one is puzzling.
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I suspect the belt of my 2020 FXS is way too tight, and reading through this thread has me worried. I bought a Krikit 91107 tension tester, and 9 times out of 10 the plastic piece doesn't deflect at all. Using the tester app I get consistent readings of about 46Hz, which is low, but in spec. I think the app is reading incorrectly because having watched a few youtube videos on tension testing, their belts seem to have tons of give compared to mine. Also, I don't know if it's related but my bike seems to groan a lot even at low speeds.
I'm fairly new at this, so pardon my ignorance. Do I need a jack or stand to change the tension? The manual doesn't say so, but it may be one of those assumed things. Thanks in advance.
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Reading the comments im this post may help with the belt tension questions:
https://m.facebook.com/groups/111611975574686?view=permalink&id=2902470729822116
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My 2020 DSR came with the tension a little low (38Hz on the app). I had some groaning and vibrations. I decided to adjust it by myself (very scary at the beginning). After a lot (20 or more times) of try and test, I found the correct tension and alignment (it was off also). Now the bike is very smooth with no vibrations and it accelerates faster.
I get consistent readings using the krikit and the app, but the measure changes depending on temperature and wheel position. Mine is now between 50hz - 65hz and 35-55kg.
I did ALL the changes without a stand, mostly because I was making some small changes, then trying, and repeat. I saw the dealer also doing it without a stand, but at least use a flat surface and don't forget to loose first and then tight everything before trying!
I am really scared about future belt snapping, because I had a very hard time adjusting mine and now it rides perfectly :(
I also want to upgrade tyres but I am scared as well of someone messing with my adjustments, so I will try to do both things at the same time when the belt gets old or the tyres too bad :D
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I went back to the scene of the crime and found my belt on the side of the road.
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That picture makes it look like it broke across a tooth! Definitely send that in to show them it was defective. Someone else who had an early break said they asked for the belt.
-Crissa
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By any chance was the belt lubricated?
The display problem is weird. I can't imagine it could be related. There is a ribbon cable somewhere in the dash not making good contact. People seem to be able to fix LCD problems like this by cleaning the connection with isopropyl alcohol and/or heat gun (https://www.instructables.com/id/Repair-a-Malfunctioning-LCD/).
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Do I need a jack or stand to change the tension? The manual doesn't say so, but it may be one of those assumed things. Thanks in advance.
This is the one I use (https://www.amazon.com/Black-Widow-BW-1604A-Motorcycle-Scissor/dp/B009W997X6/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=black+widow+motorcycle+lift&qid=1590817595&sr=8-2)with my DS and SR to lift the bike off the ground to check and adjust the belt as well to do much other work on the Zeros.
-Don- Reno, NV
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For those how are in the same case, of a snapping belt on a FXS2020, you have since yesterday evening a new member of the club. Mine has also broken on a tooth, and I'm 100% sure tension wasn't the cause as a had verified it with a krikit last weekend.
If it could help others, I can make share some more pictures since I have the belt and except being snapped its looks as new, no degradation what's ever. Remark: the carbon fibers on the left part at the bottom have clearly broken internally in the belt.
I'm not a belt specialist but if this snapping would appear more spread, it do think it would help Zero if we try a centralise information on this forum.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6474/5txLSK.gif)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3653/lo6N0W.gif)
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For those how are in the same case, of a snapping belt on a FXS2020, you have since yesterday evening a new member of the club. Mine has also broken on a tooth, and I'm 100% sure tension wasn't the cause as a had verified it with a krikit last weekend.
How many miles (or km) were on that belt? Was alignment also checked?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Some interesting information:
"Effects of Corrosion
Corrosion will attack the sprocket grooves, building up rust
deposits. The corrosion will increase over time, building up
in the sprocket grooves and non-driving surfaces (flanges,
sprocket faces, bushing face).
Sprockets with corrosion in the grooves will rapidly wear
the belt’s teeth. Sprockets with corroded grooves will wear
through the abrasion resistant tooth fabric, resulting in
tooth shear and premature belt failure.
Preventing Corrosion
Sprocket corrosion can be prevented by using Gates
stainless steel Poly Chain® GT®2 sprockets and bushings.
Sprockets can also be electroless nickel plated. Both
solutions will eliminate corrosion as a cause of failure on
belt drives.
Tensile Break:
1. Excessive shock load
2. Subminimal diameter
3. Improper belt handling and
storage prior to installation
(crimping)
4. Debris or foreign object in drive
5. Extreme sprocket run-out
Tooth Shear:
1. Excessive shock loads
2. Less than 6 teeth-in-mesh
3. Extreme sprocket run-out
4. Worn sprocket
5. Backside idler
6. Incorrect belt profile for the
sprocket
7. Misaligned drive
8. Belt undertensioned
When a belt drive is excessively noisy, the belt is often
incorrectly blamed. It is easy to eliminate the belt as the
problem by spraying it with soapy water while it is running.
If the noise goes away, or decreases, then the belt is part
of the problem. If the same noise is still present, the
problem is likely due to other drive components.
String
Variation in drive center distance, often caused by weak
supporting structure, can cause problems from vibration
to short belt life. To determine if center distance variation
exists, turn off the drive and tightly tie a piece of string
from the driveR to the driveN shaft. Start up the drive and
note if the string stretches almost to the point of breaking,
or goes slack. If either is the case, the problem could be
center distance variation.
It is particularly important to observe the string right at
drive start up when the loads are highest. String can also
be used to check pulley alignment. "
The original file is here: https://safety.gates.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Gates-Corporation-Preventive-Maintenance-Safety-for-Belt-Drives-Guide.pdf
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" Tensile break
This type of failure is typically due to crimping or severe shock loads to the belt. Crimping often produces a tear straight across the belt and can be caused by mishandling of the belt, inadequate tension, a pulley diameter that is too small, or debris in drive system. Shock loads often result in an angled tear across the belt and can be accompanied by tooth shear. "
Just 20 minutes on Google :)
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Zero bikes must be ridden in eco mode to not snap belts.
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My FXS is now at the dealer. Short of sending them this whole thread, I pretty much said almost everything listed here. We'll see what they say.
*IF* it's the belt's fault, then it's possible a lot of the 2020 FXS models had the same batch. My replacement one from AF1 is hopefully from another batch.
I doubt it is a design or sprocket problem since the FXS has been mostly unchanged for years. We shall see.
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Zero bikes must be ridden in eco mode to not snap belts.
While that will help, I expect that most belts which are properly adjusted and don't get a rock stuck between the belt & sprocket, break from accelerating over a bump. If the back wheel is able to free spin (even if only a little as it leaves the ground after a bump) it is likely to break when it hits the ground. With all that torque, something has to give and that will be the weak link, which is the belt.
What I do is if I see a bump ahead, I release the throttle a bit so the bike slows down over it. I do this crossing railroad tracks and such. I always ride in custom mode these days with about 80% torque and also about 80% deceleration regen (100% braking regen) and use the throttle to control it all.
I assume the most common reason for a well adjusted belt to break is from accelerating over a bump.
So far, 10K miles on both my Zeros with no belt issues. I will probably change the belt when I change the rear tire. My rear tires are still looking good. I have already changed the front on my SR and will need to change the front tire on my DS quite soon. The rear tires are lasting a lot longer.
BTW, I recall somebody posting a chart of when Zero recommends belt changes on their different bikes, Anybody hear know where I can find that info?
-Don- Reno, NV
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I am seriously considering buying one of those to be able to limp home if my belt fails ( I do have a spare belt at home ), and I know that they're not meant for such use, but it may work.
https://www.amazon.com/AUSPA-Power-Twist-V-Belt-2-Inch/dp/B075WRBHXB/ref=sr_1_10_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=link+belt&qid=1590862190&sr=8-10-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE2WDc0WFRSQU1LQjUmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA5MTUxMzgyTFQxM0I4NEdCU0lHJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA1NTYwOTYxOTRXMVA2WDVRSlQzJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfbXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
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And someone just posted this on Facebook:
" Whilst cleaning my SR/F today I noticed that one of the rear wheel belt grooves had a deposit of something hard 50% filling the groove, so the belt could not fully sit in this particular groove. I could not remove it with my finger/nail as it was firmly stuck in the groove. Eventually I managed to remove it with a sharp blade. It seemed to be a mixture of grit and tar that had been compacted in there. I suspect left in that place it would have eventually caused the belt to snap. All the other grooves were clean."
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Another thing to look out for! At least belts are (relatively) cheap.
-Crissa
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Another thing to look out for! At least belts are (relatively) cheap.
-Crissa
Well this was incredibly inconvenient though. I expect 10x more distance out of this next belt since that first one was so premature. If I don't get that, I'm going to the chain.
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" Tensile break
This type of failure is typically due to crimping or severe shock loads to the belt. Crimping often produces a tear straight across the belt and can be caused by mishandling of the belt, inadequate tension, a pulley diameter that is too small, or debris in drive system. Shock loads often result in an angled tear across the belt and can be accompanied by tooth shear. "
Just 20 minutes on Google :)
Thanks for your research but unfortunately I was on a complet flat even road, start at traffic lights in eco mode and as my FXS is a 11kw version .... without long duration drive stress.
As it brook after opening hours, I will bring the bike to the shop next week for a new belt, maybe i have just had bad luck, w’ll see, fingers crossed.
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I am seriously considering buying one of those to be able to limp home if my belt fails ( I do have a spare belt at home ), and I know that they're not meant for such use, but it may work.
https://www.amazon.com/AUSPA-Power-Twist-V-Belt-2-Inch/dp/B075WRBHXB/ref=sr_1_10_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=link+belt&qid=1590862190&sr=8-10-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE2WDc0WFRSQU1LQjUmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA5MTUxMzgyTFQxM0I4NEdCU0lHJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA1NTYwOTYxOTRXMVA2WDVRSlQzJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfbXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
If someone would buy and try some kind of these belts, it would be most intresting to have feedback. After having broken down 10km from home, limping back on the bike even at 20km/h sounds as heaven if you compare it to pushing a bike during 2 hours. 8) ;)
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If bumps are a trouble... why they sell trail motorcycles xD (sort of) like the DS and DSR? XD
And someone just posted this on Facebook:
" Whilst cleaning my SR/F today I noticed that one of the rear wheel belt grooves had a deposit of something hard 50% filling the groove, so the belt could not fully sit in this particular groove. I could not remove it with my finger/nail as it was firmly stuck in the groove. Eventually I managed to remove it with a sharp blade. It seemed to be a mixture of grit and tar that had been compacted in there. I suspect left in that place it would have eventually caused the belt to snap. All the other grooves were clean."
I had something similar from day zero. I had to use a sharp blade to remove 8-10 deposits on the rear sprocket, not too big. They looked like a green plastic material maybe used when building the sprockets.
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The dealer called. They said I put the new belt on correctly, and the tension is fine. They have no idea why it broke.
There were other factory issues with the bike though, so I'm glad I brought it in. The rear brake isn't applying ABS properly so they ordered a new 'rear master cylinder.' I thought it felt weak, but I didn't have anything to compare it to. Fun fun.
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New'ish bike with less than 500 miles. Accelerating up a slight hill to maybe 50Mph in a custom mode that is somewhere between ECO and Sport (71% torque setting). 90 degrees hot day in Ohio. No rain, no rocks, no slippage. Snapped right off. I pushed it a mile to somewhere safe.
I called a friend to get it towed to my house. Does anyone know if this is a warranty part when less than a year old?
-Robert
Had you checked your belt tension? My 2016 FXS was delivered with the belt so tight it was off the scale on my gauge. Not being experienced with belts, I thought I was using the gauge wrong. The belt literally did not budge no matter how hard I pressed it. I imagine my belt may have snapped of I hadn't loosened it significantly to get it in spec. Like others said it's worth a shot to ask for a replacement. Sometimes Zero stonewalls, sometimes they're above and beyond amazing.
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New'ish bike with less than 500 miles. Accelerating up a slight hill to maybe 50Mph in a custom mode that is somewhere between ECO and Sport (71% torque setting). 90 degrees hot day in Ohio. No rain, no rocks, no slippage. Snapped right off. I pushed it a mile to somewhere safe.
I called a friend to get it towed to my house. Does anyone know if this is a warranty part when less than a year old?
-Robert
Had you checked your belt tension? My 2016 FXS was delivered with the belt so tight it was off the scale on my gauge. Not being experienced with belts, I thought I was using the gauge wrong. The belt literally did not budge no matter how hard I pressed it. I imagine my belt may have snapped of I hadn't loosened it significantly to get it in spec. Like others said it's worth a shot to ask for a replacement. Sometimes Zero stonewalls, sometimes they're above and beyond amazing.
I believe that in a case of low mileage broken belt that was replaced for free by the dealer, was the dealer who went above and beyond taking the loss to make it right to the customer. Otherwise I don't see why Zero wouldn't replace all of them.
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Hi, new member here. I bought a new 2020 FXS earlier this year and its belt had snapped on a test ride before I visited the dealer, they replaced it before I rode it. There must have been a batch of bad belts. Gave me pause but I bought the bike anyway. A few hundred miles now and the belt is OK, I hope the one they put on was from a different batch.
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Hi, new member here. I bought a new 2020 FXS earlier this year and its belt had snapped on a test ride before I visited the dealer, they replaced it before I rode it. There must have been a batch of bad belts. Gave me pause but I bought the bike anyway. A few hundred miles now and the belt is OK, I hope the one they put on was from a different batch.
If you get a chance, see if the dealer will say anything about that. Is it systemic of the 2020 models?
Oh, and welcome!
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There must have been a batch of bad belts.
Perhaps, but I have assumed they were either put on too tight or not aligned correctly when they snap while still fairly new.
Just replacing the belt means it has to be aligned and tension set again, which means the replaced belt could last a lot longer if put on correctly the 2nd time.
I heard somewhere that the new belts can get tighter after a few miles, won't always go looser. Perhaps they put something in the belt that helps them not get loose as miles are added, but perhaps is overdone a bit. So if it's on too tight when installed, it's likely to break.
I keep my Zero belts just a bit on the loose side of spec and I have more than 10,000 miles (16.1 KM) on each with no belt problems, so far.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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My dealer just called and said they fixed my FXS so I'll pick it up later. ;D
I asked them to test the belt tension and set it in the middle.
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I got it back. The tension seems high on my iPhone app but fairly close on the mechanical one. We'll see what happens!