ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: centra12 on May 17, 2020, 02:29:52 AM
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Does Zero still have a chance against Enertica with their >20kW battery and CCS?
The annual production of 2020 is completely sold out at Energica!
Zero has never made it
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It doesn't really matter who has the best bike when most people aren't buying the best bike.
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There are reasons enough to go for Zero instead of Energica. Picking a bike isn't only based on battery capacity and charging speed.
Just a few (not all important to me but some are)
- dealers around (in BE only 1 dealer for Energica that redirects to NL dealership)
- chain vs belt final drive
- no gearbox
- lower weight
- 2 times faster on board charger (3kW vs 6kW for premium zero models)
- looks (personal obviously)
- maintenance costs
- price
+ everything else I just forgot
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Well for one, even if there was an Energica dealer near me, I don't want a bike that weighs almost 600 pounds. I'm sure Zero could build a 600# bike with a similar battery, if they wanted.
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Yeah, Energica is basically the super-bike while Zero is the reasonable choice ^-^
There's also the rating of the wattage of the motor, which affects licensing and sometimes insurance.
And the rating of the voltage of the system, which affects the legality of who can work on the bike.
-Crissa
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I never understood the need for someone to come on a Zero forum and bash the bikes comparing it to the brand they prefer. Look down a couple of makes on the board and you will find Energica's forum. People on that forum would probably agree with you which is the better bike. In the meantime, most of us considered the two brands when we were ready to by and went with Zero for a reason(s).
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Not going to find an Energica for a reasonable used price, for instance. Or have as low maintenance costs. Or be as light and easy to kick around, more newbie friendly.
All electrics with mode select and customization are good for newbies, but a bike that's straight up lighter/less maintenance is going to be the right choice.
Simplified and optimized is what Zero is going for. The most is what Energica is going for. Completely different markets.
Take Don for instance: He rides his Energica over the mountains and when it's the only thing he takes, it takes it. But when he takes his RV, the Zero is his choice because it takes up less space and is lighter to carry, and has nobbier tires for out in rural camps. And does his errands on the faster Zero, since in-town it does better for him. Each does their thing, and even Energica fans may want something the Energica can't offer.
-Crissa
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Well for one, even if there was an Energica dealer near me, I don't want a bike that weighs almost 600 pounds.
Why is the weight an issue? The Energicags have a reverse as well as a very slow forward. That usually makes the weight less of an non-issue than on lighter bikes.
And even if I dump the Energica, it has to be easier than picking up my Zero, which I discovered was impossible without help. (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9964.msg89394#msg89394)
-Don- Reno, NV
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Don, weight matters in far more things than walking the bike.
We've had this conversation.
-Crissa.
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Don, weight matters in far more things than walking the bike.
We've had this conversation.
-Crissa.
I just don't see the big deal with the weight otherwise. Even my 1,000 LB Harley does fine in the city. No doubt you have seen such many times yourself. But I certainly wished my Harley had a reverse, and quite a few times.
I don't ever recall wishing my Energica was lighter. It's just not an issue.
-Don-
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I have ridden both of them and the only advantage of the Zero is that it is faster from 0-100km/h and quieter. But at a starting speed of over 50km/h the Energica is always faster.
Otherwise, there's not much left of the Zero.
- Timing belt that likes to travel and is not cheap
- Good dealer network but what good is that if they have to wait forever for parts. Do they sleep at Zero in the Netherlands?
- Worse manufactured than the Energica
- Only 11KW charging power
- No CCS that is being massively expanded in Europe and favoured by the car industry
- Charging cable must always be carried along
- Poor centre of gravity with 11kW loader
- Same price for less future
Not for nothing else are the 2000 units for 2020 already sold out at Energica
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I don't ever recall wishing my Energica was lighter. It's just not an issue.
Says the guy with how many decades of practice on how many bikes and is how much larger than most of us? C'mon. You live bikes, of course you don't feel the weight. Moving with a bike is second-nature to you.
The rest of us are mere mortals.
-Crissa
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I live bikes, and I spent 15 years on fully loaded BMW GSes... and the Energica is still way too heavy for me. I'm not exactly built like a brick privy but I'm not exactly small either. Weight is an issue for most riders. And there's the old maxim that power makes you fast on the straights, but lightness makes you fast everywhere.
Cas :)
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Weight is a big issue for me, too. But mostly because of my age and light weight, and the fact that I need to push my bikes backwards uphill into my garage. Right now my 552 pound BMW boxer is right at my limit for pushing. However, once I start riding it the weight seems to melt away. The heaviest bike that I have ever owned was my 1991 BMW K100RS, which came in around 620 pounds, or about what an Energica weighs. Back then, pushing it around was no problem for me, but that wouldn't be the case now.
As a motorcycle, I give the Energica high marks. I think it is better designed and has better chassis components than Zeros. But the weight is a factor for me, along with its greater maintenance needs. Since I use my Zero for general low-cost transportation within a 50-mile radius, it is the better bike for me. If I rode more for fun, at high speeds, on rides where the bike could be recharged at an L3 station - and was younger, I likely would have bought an Energica instead of my latest Zero. However, I will admit that I only live about 60 miles from the factory and my dealer is just a 20-minute ride away and has over 10 years of selling and servicing Zeros, so that is a big plus for me, too.
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The one thing I wished the Zeros had was a reverse function. It really should be a easy issue on electric bikes. I would think it is more of a software programming thing. Have a switch to run engine in reverse and have a programmed safety limiter so you can only go a couple mph. But I am not an engineer so maybe it is harder. I deal backing up without it but it would be nice. Anytime I find myself complaining about backing it up into my garage I just look at my 650# ICE bike and I don't feel that the Zero is that bad.
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Each brand has their strengths. Zero has traditionally excelled as a commuter that people ride to work, ride home, and plug in overnight to recharge. With the SR/F platform they're taking everything they've learned from the last decade and poured it into a refined sport bike that you can go for a ride, take a leisurely lunch while charging, and then go for another ride. The bikes are quiet, smooth, and all sorts of fun. Special mention to the FXS as one of the most entertaining urban commuter/toys made in recent memory. EVERYONE should test ride an FXS at some point.
Energicas were born as track bikes. The EGO is truly the flagship as a flashy beast that will go fast, charge fast, and never overheat. But then the Italians started to realize a lot of us wanted comfier, more upright riding which led to the SS9. It goes fast, it charges fast, and it never overheats. It's also exceptionally comfortable. Yes, the bike shines most when you have a solid DC Fast Charge network around you. Which I do. Ultimately this is why I sold my Zeroes for an SS9. There are things I miss about my Zeroes but I am happy with my decision overall.
The LiveWire is surprisingly well-made. It's geared lower than both the other bikes so they made it exceptionally peppy from 0-114 mph. They also made some interesting decisions about cooling the components, including some clever battery cooling. It, too, can ride hard all day and not overheat. The decision to omit level 2 charging and the ergonomic position of the bike will frustrate some people, as will the $30,000 price tag. But it's a very, very good bike.
It comes down to personal preference, your riding style, and what sort of infrastructure you have around you. I don't think there's a bad choice in the lineup.
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The one thing I wished the Zeros had was a reverse function. It really should be a easy issue on electric bikes. I would think it is more of a software programming thing. Have a switch to run engine in reverse and have a programmed safety limiter so you can only go a couple mph. But I am not an engineer so maybe it is harder. I deal backing up without it but it would be nice. Anytime I find myself complaining about backing it up into my garage I just look at my 650# ICE bike and I don't feel that the Zero is that bad.
These functions have been available for tens of years ::)
The Sevcon is already prepared for reverse gear! You only have to wire the input with a switch and program the max speed with the DVT software.
It also has a speed hold function -> cruise control but Sevcon does not recommend it
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The one thing I wished the Zeros had was a reverse function. It really should be a easy issue on electric bikes. I would think it is more of a software programming thing. Have a switch to run engine in reverse and have a programmed safety limiter so you can only go a couple mph. But I am not an engineer so maybe it is harder. I deal backing up without it but it would be nice. Anytime I find myself complaining about backing it up into my garage I just look at my 650# ICE bike and I don't feel that the Zero is that bad.
These functions have been available for tens of years ::)
The Sevcon is already prepared for reverse gear! You only have to wire the input with a switch and program the max speed with the DVT software.
It also has a speed hold function -> cruise control but Sevcon does not recommend it
Yes, I had this function installed on my 2016 DSR, and will likely re-install it on my 2020 DSR when I get a sizeable fairing put back on it.
Sevcon controllers are mostly targeted at electric forklifts and light trucks, so their features at low speed are well-supported (including inching that forklifts need for precision placement), but at high speeds their featureset is not that robust (speed control and traction control being the things SDS owners miss most).
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Yes, the bike shines most when you have a solid DC Fast Charge network around you. Which I do.
It's much more important to have them around 50 miles away, which I do for east and west, but not for north and south from Reno.
What I would like to see Energica do is somehow squeeze in a 6 kW charger for J-1772. Many places I go only have J-1772 or a 240 VAC outlet (Genoa, NV) and even with my smaller Energica battery, I would like J-1772 charging to be faster. 6KW I would find to be reasonable.
I modified a granny cable to be small so I carry it with me and I can charge from anywhere I can find AC voltage. 120 VAC, Tesla Destination chargers included. It all fits in one side bag and uses an extension cord.
The HD Livewire I would never consider with its useless J-1772 charging. What would have helped a lot is if every HD shop had CCS instead of only those that sell the LW.
BTW, the casino parking lots are closed here in Reno so that means no J-1772 charging from many locations that I used to use. Especially the Tammerack Casino in the very southern part of Reno.
But the chargers at the very top of VA City at the courthouse parking lot (Tesla and J-1772) are still usable.
-Don- Reno, NV
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There are reasons enough to go for Zero instead of Energica. Picking a bike isn't only based on battery capacity and charging speed.
Just a few (not all important to me but some are)
- price
Zero chanceless 8)
The basic model of the SR/F costs with us 20.790€
The Eva EsseEsse9 with the small battery 13,4KWH has 180Nm (Zero 190Nm) and a continuous power of 108PS (Zero 54PS) costs 19.500€ with tax
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There are reasons enough to go for Zero instead of Energica. Picking a bike isn't only based on battery capacity and charging speed.
Just a few (not all important to me but some are)
- price
Zero chanceless 8)
The basic model of the SR/F costs with us 20.790€
The Eva EsseEsse9 with the small battery 13,4KWH has 180Nm (Zero 190Nm) and a continuous power of 108PS (Zero 54PS) costs 19.500€ with tax
Are you not aware that Zero makes bikes other than the SR/F? Energica has nothing close to the price of a 7.2kW/h S/DS/FX/S, or as light, or as capable off road as the DS/FX.
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Yes, the bike shines most when you have a solid DC Fast Charge network around you. Which I do.
It's much more important to have them around 50 miles away, which I do for east and west, but not for north and south from Reno.
What I would like to see Energica do is somehow squeeze in a 6 kW charger for J-1772.
Theoretically it would be possible to charge the Energica with a TC Charger and a control unit for CCS.
But that's bullshit too much weight and cable
In 3 years we will be drowning in CCS charging stations in Europe
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Are you not aware that Zero makes bikes other than the SR/F? Energica has nothing close to the price of a 7.2kW/h S/DS/FX/S, or as light, or as capable off road as the DS/FX.
These are not motorcycles but scooters/pocketbike :(
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The FXS is absolutely a motorcycle. A ridiculously fun one at that.
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Are you not aware that Zero makes bikes other than the SR/F? Energica has nothing close to the price of a 7.2kW/h S/DS/FX/S, or as light, or as capable off road as the DS/FX.
These are not motorcycles but scooters/pocketbike :(
This attitude is shared by a segment of riders for whom the Energica is the right choice.
Even the weakest Zero is absolutely more capable, in terms of power and torque, than the 500cc offerings on the market (2-stroke models aside), and none of those are pocketbikes and I'm not including scooters.
I would (like Crissa) prefer that such comparisons stay out of the Zero section of the forums. There are vendor-neutral subforums where you can posture about what you consider to be a real motorcycle or not, and this type of opinion belongs there.
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Even the weakest Zero is absolutely more capable, in terms of power and torque, than the 500cc offerings on the market (2-stroke models aside), and none of those are pocketbikes and I'm not including scooters.
I would (like Crissa) prefer that such comparisons stay out of the Zero section of the forums. There are vendor-neutral subforums where you can posture about what you consider to be a real motorcycle or not, and this type of opinion belongs there.
If I look at the permanent line of a SR/DSR, 250-cm3 would easily be enough to make Zero drivers cry.
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You obviously have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to Zeros, you should just leave this section and go back to the Energica boards. Even a non-R S/DS is faster than many A2 bikes, those are in the 40-47hp range and 300-400cc. The R models are faster than any A2 bikes and up there with the 65-70hp 500-650cc bikes.
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This thread is only contributing to my perception that Energica has a marketing problem, in that their owner community is attracting and retaining too many jerks and snobs.
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I rather think that Zero drivers can't distinguish between top performance and continuous power.
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I rather think that Zero drivers can't distinguish between top performance and continuous power.
We don't care and you do. That's all.
But you created this thread to insult us, and you're teaching us more about your attitude than about the bikes themselves. It's not a good look, and I advise you take a step back and wonder what you think you're accomplishing.
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This thread is only contributing to my perception that Energica has a marketing problem, in that their owner community is attracting and retaining too many jerks and snobs.
It would also frustrate me if my favourite company had only been in the red for years
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centra12, paraphrased: "If you want to be part of a community of jerks, buy Energica!"
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My S, easily the weakest bike represented in this conversation, is considered 'too much bike for a noobie' by every motorcycle instructor and many riders I met while learning how to ride. And even it can still beat off the line most ICE bikes, it's 0-30 is amazing.
And it's just over half the weight and certainly a small portion of the power of an Energica. And I wouldn't have found an Energica for six grand, either.
There are places for cheaper, simpler, lighter bikes. That doesn't make them scooters. Wouldn't take an Energica scrambling, would you?
-Crissa
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I rather think that Zero drivers can't distinguish between top performance and continuous power.
Right, because we all know a 250 is always putting out its peak power and torque. I'll humour you and actually compare some numbers. The fastest 250s will put out about 19-21kW, at 8500rpm or more. Torque is going to be less than 20Nm and peak above 6000rpm. A non-R Zero is going to put out 33-44kW (dependant on battery size) and a bit over 100Nm from a dead stop. The fastest 250 would be lucky to hit 60mph in the low 6s, the Zero will do it in the low 5s/high 4s.
EDIT: Looking back through centra's previous posts it doesn't look like he's every actually posted in the Energica board, most of his posts are on the Zero board and usually trying to shit on Zeros in some way. Makes me wonder if he even owns one as surely he'd be singing their praises there every chance he had. If he doesn't own one I'd love to hear him explain why. I wonder if it has anything to do with the price perhaps.
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centra12, paraphrased: "If you want to be part of a community of jerks, buy Energica!"
You also walk through life with an aluminum foil on your head and suspect conspiracies everywhere when things are not going well!
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It's not a conspiracy; I'm indicating how your posturing comes across. You're not the only one, either. Many Energica riders seem to make it a point to post to the Zero board in this manner, and it's really inappropriate. I'd like to ask the admin to freeze this thread, because it's not going anywhere constructive, and the OP seems to be posting in bad faith.
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I'm not convinced he even owns an Energica, he's been hating on Zero (and owns/owned an old DS) since 2015 but never mentioned replacing it with a different brand from what I could see.
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Dealer network was actually part of my decision..
Zero changed their network right before i got mine, Energica no longer has one in my country.
Having access to servicing is a BIG part of the decision to buy a bike..
Even though pricing is, in this case, segregated into quite different areas, if they had a comparative equal service network i think i would have eyed Energica a lot more in the beginning.
As it stands now, it's not even on my radar even though that 20 kWh battery looks very tempting indeed.
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I'm not convinced he even owns an Energica, he's been hating on Zero (and owns/owned an old DS) since 2015 but never mentioned replacing it with a different brand from what I could see.
You're damn right! ;D
After the absolute quality disaster of the DS, I bought myself a C Evolution. It is not the fastest and most beautiful but I got to know a completely different side of electric mobility. Reliability and utility paired with low cost infinitely better than Zero. Just extending the warranty for 150€ per year is reassuring but that would be deadly for Zero.
Next year they will buy the EsseEsse9+ with the same reliability of the Evolution but with a sturdy charger that is not the best at BMW.
For Zero in Europe I give them another 3 years if nothing changes drastically and they do not really respond to the market.
Oh, and by the way, I forgot to tell you.
A timing belt can last for 50.000km but this is nothing new for Zero drivers. ???
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Energicas need more service than ICE bikes, cost more, and are heavier.
No thanks!
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The reason for me to choose an Energica over a Zero was almost the same price for both SS9+ and SR/F Premium + Charge Tank in Europe. With that, looking at the higher quality components and DC fast charging the decision was easy. But I also totally loved riding the SR/F which I would have chosen if the 20 KWh batteries wouldn't exist :)
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I'm not convinced he even owns an Energica, he's been hating on Zero (and owns/owned an old DS) since 2015 but never mentioned replacing it with a different brand from what I could see.
You're damn right! ;D
After the absolute quality disaster of the DS, I bought myself a C Evolution. It is not the fastest and most beautiful but I got to know a completely different side of electric mobility. Reliability and utility paired with low cost infinitely better than Zero. Just extending the warranty for 150€ per year is reassuring but that would be deadly for Zero.
Next year they will buy the EsseEsse9+ with the same reliability of the Evolution but with a sturdy charger that is not the best at BMW.
For Zero in Europe I give them another 3 years if nothing changes drastically and they do not really respond to the market.
Oh, and by the way, I forgot to tell you.
A timing belt can last for 50.000km but this is nothing new for Zero drivers. ???
A C Evolution is significantly more expensive than a comparable Zero, while being a lot heavier and with the worse handling of a scooter. Of course it does have it's advantages too, just like comparing Zero to Energica neither is outright better than the other.
Anyway, as you no longer even have a Zero how about you hop on over to the "Other Electric Motorcycles" section? Or head over to the Energica section and do some more shilling for the bike you're "going to buy next year".
Also I find it funny how you shit on Zeros for supposedly being scooters and being slower than 250s, yet you love riding a literal scooter that's slower than a Zero.
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A C Evolution is significantly more expensive than a comparable Zero
The DS cost me more with warning than the C Evo
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Did the C Evolution even get a 2020 version? I can't find it. Google has been really weird lately.
-Crissa
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Did the C Evolution even get a 2020 version? I can't find it. Google has been really weird lately.
-Crissa
No, there won't be. The future of the C Evo is uncertain.
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Well that's terrible. They sound neat, tho their motor sounds unduly expensive and their battery weirdly under-voltage and over-ranged for a scooter.
One of the articles hinted that BMW was copying the Vectrix?
-Crissa
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Well that's terrible. They sound neat, tho their motor sounds unduly expensive and their battery weirdly under-voltage and over-ranged for a scooter.
One of the articles hinted that BMW was copying the Vectrix?
-Crissa
We're pulling away from the team!!!
But here is a short BMW info
They are already working on a successor of C EVO but it will be smaller and lighter.
Also an electric motorcycle is currently under development but at the moment the batteries are still too heavy and too big for BMW!
Minimum requirement for BMW >20kWh battery size and charge with 40-50kW and will be produced only when quantities can be sold safely.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
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If you're talking about the reverse gear then they have that, but you have to hold a button on the left controls and then twist the throttle in the normal direction.
The battery is 133v and range is 62 miles from about 8.5kW/h (they state a 100km range and consumption of 8.5kW/k per 100km) with the standard battery capacity. That's using the WMTC testing standard, reading through the testing procedure it's hard to compare it to the range specs that Zero gives but it seems to mostly consist of riding below 90km/h (56mph).
BMW might have been able to squeeze more sales out of it if they got it rated as an 11kW A1 bike like Zero did, and of course a lower price would have made it more available to those younger or less experienced riders.
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The announcement of the 2018 said it had a fifty-some volt battery and ninety miles (which the review said was nonsense).
Sounds like yeah, it fell outside most optimal sets.
-Crissa
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I got those numbers off the BMW site so perhaps they updated it for 2019. You'd think that if it sold well enough for them to do that they'd keep it going.
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Maybe they didn't update it so much as it was a moving target of new technology?
-Crissa