ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: quixotic on May 16, 2020, 07:58:33 AM
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My 2013 only gets used in the summer months, so in the winter, it has been stored in a somewhat heated garage (perhaps down to freezing at times), and charged every 90 days or so (as per the manual). But I've noticed that now it will only charge up to 8 bars on the speedo indicator (or the single red and double green lights on the battery indicators). I can leave it charging (via 110 volts), but at some point, it just wants to go to the "unbalanced" indicator (the 3 alternating flashing green lights). Is the battery on its way out? (The bike still seems just as responsive as it ever was).
Thanks in advance for any info.
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My 2013 only gets used in the summer months, so in the winter, it has been stored in a somewhat heated garage (perhaps down to freezing at times), and charged every 90 days or so (as per the manual). But I've noticed that now it will only charge up to 8 bars on the speedo indicator (or the single red and double green lights on the battery indicators). I can leave it charging (via 110 volts), but at some point, it just wants to go to the "unbalanced" indicator (the 3 alternating flashing green lights). Is the battery on its way out? (The bike still seems just as responsive as it ever was).
Thanks in advance for any info.
Are you only using the OBC? Your problem could be the charger or the battery. The best way to find out which is to see if it will fully charge with an external Delta Q charger.
-Don- Reno, NV
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My money is on the charger going bad. :(
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I also have a theory, that the BMS on the old Zero's need the charger to be plugged in all the time, otherwise the pack will go out of balance, and will take some charging/discharging cycles to get the pack back in balance. Again, this is my theory, but if is true for this instance too, then it will be the third case that I am aware of. So maybe this is why the ZERO didn't revised the charging instruction for the older models to match the SR/F and SR/S, because the older BMS wasn't designed for that.
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Thanks All. I suspect TEV might be correct. (Don's reply, due to my ignorance, is close to Latin, and I'm wondering why Richard's suggestion about the charger might be the case if it can still charge up to 8 bars).
I think the manual is somewhat conflicted in that on one page, it states "the power pack may be charged...within 90 days if stored fully charged", and then the very next sentence states "Zero recommends you plug in your Zero after 7 days, even if fully charged."
I went for the 90 days option, since I had major issues with the spade connectors heating up dangerously a couple of years earlier (the plastic around the plug melted and stunk up the garage, and my wife freaked out about potentially burning down the garage). I replaced the connectors with the most robust I could find, but the plug still gets very hot to touch. Therefore, I thought that the less I had to charge the bike, the better.
Would I be advised to get a 240v system installed in the garage? If so, is the cord/plug arrangement at the bike end still the same?
Thanks.
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I'm wondering why Richard's suggestion about the charger might be the case if it can still charge up to 8 bars).
There is a known issue with Zero having isolation faults, that, over time, will destroy the onboard chargers. It's begin with the charger not being able to charge to 100%, like won't charge more than 95%, then 90%, ...., and then at some point will either start tripping the house breaker or just not charging anymore.
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Don's reply, due to my ignorance, is close to Latin
OBC= onboard charger = the charger that is installed on the motorcycle :)
He is suggesting, in order to rule out a bad OBC ( onboard charger ;D) , to try charging with an external charger, to see if the pack will charge to 100% with it.
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So it seems the Delta Q charger is the same as the Zero quick charger. But I can't seem to find the latter on Zero's accessory page. Also, the product link on zeromanual.com doesn't work: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Zero_Quick_Charger
Do they still make and sell them? Edit: Sorry, I see it now on their site (I initially thought it was just a range extender) Edit on the edit: So on the canadian website, the unit is advertised as a range extender, but on the u.s. website, it's advertised as a charge tank for 6x faster charging. And the units look identical. Now I'm really confused.
Before that, I should've noted that for at least the last couple of years, I've gotten the "power pack unbalanced" signal from the green lights at the end of the charging sequence. The manual says the solution is to charge the bike for 72 hours. So I'll see if that makes a difference.
I'd hate to have to deal with a kaput battery, since the nearest dealer is 1,000 km's away.
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You can't buy it off the Zero site, as far as I know you can get a Zero dealer to order it in for you or you can buy it from somewhere like AF1Racing or Hollywood Electrics. The Zero charger is a custom Delta Quiq, I think the only difference is in software.
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The 2013 onboard charger is not the Calex charger, and it's managed by the CCU, not directly attached to the CANbus.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Onboard_Charger
The charger is a set of 4 (2s2p) Mean Well HLG320H-54A units.
Definitely give your battery a long slow charge to see whether the imbalance clears up. But also, use the mobile app to check the imbalance, then extract the logs and decode them to see a more detailed report. A BMS log will say how all the cells are behaving.
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The 2013 onboard charger is not the Calex charger, and it's managed by the CCU, not directly attached to the CANbus.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Onboard_Charger
The charger is a set of 4 (2s2p) Mean Well HLG320H-54A units.
Definitely give your battery a long slow charge to see whether the imbalance clears up. But also, use the mobile app to check the imbalance, then extract the logs and decode them to see a more detailed report. A BMS log will say how all the cells are behaving.
Thanks for that. I don't quite follow it all, but I did manage to download the app, and get some info off of it. Apparently, my cell balance is 5mv. Is that good or bad?
The other indicators stated 87% charge (that's after leaving the bike plugged in for about 2.5 days), 10 amps, 1080 watts, 225 kwh used, 108v, and 52 charge cycles. I'm not sure how much of that might be relevant.
Do I use the app to extract the logs? I thought I went through the whole menu system, but I don't recall seeing anything relating to logs.
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Since your balance is good, I suspect your charger is going out. You could try charging with an off board charger and if it goes to 100, then you have a place to start.
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Since your balance is good, I suspect your charger is going out. You could try charging with an off board charger and if it goes to 100, then you have a place to start.
Sorry. Disregard those numbers (I found out that I was actually in demo mode). The actual numbers are 75% charged, 116v, cell balance of 313mv, 266 charge cycles, and 551 kwh. I also managed to send myself a log file, but I have no idea how to open a bin file, and I suspect it'd all be latin to me anyway (it's attached if anyone can help me out).
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OK, that's actually a very bad balance. :(
Logs can be decoded here, just upload the bin file you have:
https://home.hasslers.net/zerologparser/
It should give you a text file you can upload here.
With that balance, either the charger is going bad and the bike isn't appropriately charging to full or your battery is on the way out.
The best approach still might be to find an external charger and attempt to charge it, or take it to a dealer.
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OK, that's actually a very bad balance. :(
Logs can be decoded here, just upload the bin file you have:
https://home.hasslers.net/zerologparser/
It should give you a text file you can upload here.
With that balance, either the charger is going bad and the bike isn't appropriately charging to full or your battery is on the way out.
The best approach still might be to find an external charger and attempt to charge it, or take it to a dealer.
Well, I'm afraid it won't be going to a dealer any time soon, since the nearest one is 1,000 km's away. I've now got the log in a txt file. Is there any way to tell from it whether it's the charger or the battery?
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Well, you could look at the point where it reaches the highest voltage and see if it says why it stopped charging. The bikes are designed to stop charging when one cell gets to the max voltage. With that imbalance, that could be at a lower SOC. Beyond that, I think you need a known good charger to get it up to full voltage and attempt to balance it.
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I would be worried about that 116V reading. That is what you should be seeing at 100% SOC, not 75%. To me that sounds like a bad battery pack where one or more cells have hit their top voltage and the system shut down so as to not damage those cells. I think the excessive balance number is also indicative of something wrong. 5mV is what you should be seeing at 100% SOC when everything is in good shape. Replacing the batteries if necessary is not going to be quick, cheap or easy.
On my app when the logs are downloaded they automatically got emailed to Zero (even thought I didn't want to do that at the time). They wanted both the BMS and the MMB logs to look at, which will keep your phone busy for a while. You should probably just email the log file that is stored on your phone to Zero. I think the app has their email address.
I thought I had a problem with my Zero a few months ago and they got back to me the same day and said that they didn't see anything unusual, but to have my dealer check my bike over during the next regularly scheduled service - which didn't surprise me much. Zero is always trying to toss business to their retail outlets.
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I would be worried about that 116V reading. That is what you should be seeing at 100% SOC, not 75%. To me that sounds like a bad battery pack where one or more cells have hit their top voltage and the system shut down so as to not damage those cells.
Isn't that close to the normal max voltage?
Sounds to me like the calibration is off, not the battery.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I would be worried about that 116V reading. That is what you should be seeing at 100% SOC, not 75%. To me that sounds like a bad battery pack where one or more cells have hit their top voltage and the system shut down so as to not damage those cells.
Isn't that close to the normal max voltage?
Sounds to me like the calibration is off, not the battery.
-Don- Reno, NV
That is correct, but if the SOC value is only 75% and the balancing is way off, I would think that is an indication that the battery pack has some issues. Of course the app's display could be way off, but that does seem like a pretty crazy set of values and I would think they could only be the result of a nutty MMB. However, I have read more stories regarding bad battery packs than I have bad MMBs or weird app information. ???
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If the charger isn't getting to 100% then it won't balance the cells so it's not really unusual that they're out of balance. Being in the 300mV range does seem high from what I could find with 100-200mV being more typical at a low SoC, but I suppose it depends on just how many cycles the pack has been through without being balanced.
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If you have an Android phone, you can use this free app, and it will show you a more detailed pack voltage information, and the actual voltage of the lowest voltage cell , and the highest voltage cell. Also can do some other things too 😁.
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9065.0
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That is correct, but if the SOC value is only 75% and the balancing is way off, I would think that is an indication that the battery pack has some issues.
I wouldn't use the SOC for any type of data.
Ignore the SOC and then try to find a problem. If you can't, then it probably means the SOC number shown is the real problem.
An accurate voltage measurement is a real & meaningful reading. For either the battery voltage or the balancing difference. The SOC number isn't much of anything useful, other than a hint that something could be screwy.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Double-checking the actual voltage should be easy enough with a multi meter.
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Thanks everybody. (I only vaguely recall volts, amps, and ohms from school days, so this is a tremendous help).
TEV, I tried the app (thanks also, 1973), and the numbers I got were as follows:
92% state of charge (quite different than the 75% that the Zero app gave me, but after a day of balancing on the charger...and I'm still at 8 bars)
115 pack voltage
27/68 pack capacity
23 degrees controller temp
(the bike was turned on, but not charging, so I didn't get charging rate or current. Should I have? It didn't seem to want to connect in that state).
cell voltage min/max 3401/4316
pack temp min/max 26/27
Please keep in mind that for any advice, I'm more than 1,000 km's away from the nearest dealer (the Calgary dealer where I bought the bike, stopped selling Zero's less than a year after I bought it), so I'd rather limp through life with a faulty battery (my commute is quite short), than try to get the bike to Vancouver and back for a new battery.
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Those cell voltages are not good: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Battery_Voltage
If your readings are mV, 3.401V corresponds to basically 0%, and 4.316V corresponds to over 100%.
Keep that battery on a slow charge for another couple of days. I'll look at the logs in case anything jumps out at me.
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There are a number of chassis isolation faults to various cells in the battery, which could actually be an indication that the problem is environmental.
I think you need to pull BMS logs, and also check the front plate of the battery for dirt and ingress into the window to the BMS.
I think you should also take off the bellypan and examine the charging units under the bike for dirt and moisture. You can clean them, but only while the bike is unplugged and keyed off.
If there's any sign at all that there's dirt or moisture behind the front plate, you may need to carefully lift that plate off and see what might be an issue ***without touching anything***, either around the pins to the cells or elsewhere.
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Thanks Brian. I'll tackle the belly pan on the weekend.
What is the BMS?
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Thanks Brian. I'll tackle the belly pan on the weekend.
What is the BMS?
BMS=Battery Manage System. It's the electronics built into the battery case that monitor & control just about everything possible with the battery.
See here. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_management_system)
-Don- Reno, NV
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I think you should also take off the bellypan and examine the charging units under the bike for dirt and moisture. You can clean them, but only while the bike is unplugged and keyed off.
If there's any sign at all that there's dirt or moisture behind the front plate, you may need to carefully lift that plate off and see what might be an issue ***without touching anything***, either around the pins to the cells or elsewhere.
Speaking of the belly pan, I seem to recall trying to take it off a few years ago, since I thought I had some pebbles rolling around in it (but the noise has since disappeared). But I don't think I ever managed to get it off. Is it as much of an ordeal as I'm afraid it might be?
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I think you should also take off the bellypan and examine the charging units under the bike for dirt and moisture. You can clean them, but only while the bike is unplugged and keyed off.
If there's any sign at all that there's dirt or moisture behind the front plate, you may need to carefully lift that plate off and see what might be an issue ***without touching anything***, either around the pins to the cells or elsewhere.
Speaking of the belly pan, I seem to recall trying to take it off a few years ago, since I thought I had some pebbles rolling around in it (but the noise has since disappeared). But I don't think I ever managed to get it off. Is it as much of an ordeal as I'm afraid it might be?
The belly pan comes off with 8 bolts, and isn’t supporting anything directly, it just covers the charger. The unofficial manual has a trivial removal procedure. I think you might have to remove the side plastics first.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/SDS_Platform/Belly_Pan_Removal (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/SDS_Platform/Belly_Pan_Removal)
If the charger has to be removed, that’s a little trickier but not terribly hard. We don’t have good documentation for the 2013 units because the later Calex chargers have been more of an issue.
After several years, it would not surprise me if accumulated dirt has caused isolation issues. I think you’ll want to give it all a good brushing and possibly have an electrician look at it. Definitely wash the pan separately with a hose and let it dry before reinstalling. What you don’t want to do is use pressured air to blow the dirt because it might push it deeper. A vacuum would be better.
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Thanks Brian. I'll tackle the belly pan on the weekend.
What is the BMS?
What you need to know typically starts with the BMS reset procedure, which shows the window I was talking about where dust or moisture might be getting in. This window needs to be covered by a rubber plug normally:
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/BMS_Reset_Procedure
The article about the Zero BMS is in need of more work but at least has some explanations:
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Battery_Management_System
Basically, it's a special circuit board under the front plate of the battery case that manages cell balancing and all of the safety features around the battery, and operates the contactor. Definitely focus on the window first, and then consider removing the front plate of the battery to inspect it for dirt and debris that might be causing problems.
DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING on the BMS (other than the reset buttons) if you aren't practiced in electrical safety. Get some photos of anything you inspect so someone here or elsewhere can check for issues. If you find dirt, a light dry brush (with any metalic parts wrapped in electrical tape or similar) to sweep it off and out of the area is suitable, but no forced air should be used.
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Thanks for all your help, Brian. I'll report back on the weekend.
(I don't know why I had bad feelings about the belly pan. I just remember a lot of cussing a few years ago, when I was trying to trace down a rattle (which has since disappeared), and I tried to remove the pan, thinking that a pebble or two had fallen in there. I had a brief look at pan and the hex bolts today, and I don't know what all the fuss could have been about).
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It could be that the pan for 2013 is a little different when it comes to uncovering the onboard charger units.
One way to make removing stuff from the bottom of the bike easier is to have an adjustable lift or blocks under the bike but not supporting it, so as you loosen the pan bolts, it can immediately rest on the lift until it's ready to pull off.
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Well, I took off the belly pan and inspected the charger. And I opened up BMS and did a re-set. Neither location showed any significant grunge (photos attached).
The only thing of significance that occurred was that after the re-set, the coded lights did the "temperature disable" code for about 10 or 15 minutes (with key off), and then after the coding lights went blank, I turned the key on and instead of the bars only going up to 8, I actually got 9 bars (yes!)
After that, I checked with the zerospy app, and the only significant (maybe ?) changes were that the min/max went from 3404/4142 mv to 3405/4155 mv, and the amp-hours went from 23/70 to 21/71. I currently have it plugged in, and the lights are doing the balancing act, so I'll check with the zerospy app after another day or so.
Going forward, I'm just wondering how to keep things from getting worse -- at least until someone in either Calgary or Edmonton decides to open a Zero franchise. I'll certainly get a 240v installation done in the garage, and just keep the bike plugged in at all times (when not riding), but other than that, is there anything else I should do? If the bike can charge to 9 bars, I'd be quite satisfied with that, since my commute is quite short.
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Just let it plugged in as much as possible, hopefully, the BMS will be able to balance the cells.
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Now I'm REALLY po'd at Zero. Their battery app (not zerospy) specified something about putting the kickstand down when using it. Now the bike won't move forward, because it thinks the kickstand is always up. >:(
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Now I'm REALLY po'd at Zero. Their battery app (not zerospy) specified something about putting the kickstand down when using it. Now the bike won't move forward, because it thinks the kickstand is always up. >:(
...um, that last word should read "down"
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I want to be clear that your minimum cell voltage reading is highly concerning (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Battery_Voltage suggests that at least one cell is at 0% SoC equivalent), in addition to the per-cell grounding resistances, and if charging does not change that, your battery could be in serious trouble soon, and I don't think you should ride that bike in its current imbalance state.
Please extract and post or decode those BMS logs to see all the cell voltages individually, and probably more information about isolation faults.
Your charger doesn't appear visibly grimy, and there's no obvious sign of corrosion, but there could be a problem that isn't visible.
It is good to see that the grease is still present under the BMS window (and that presumably the cover is still in place normally), but that's not the full story.
Your kickstand switch does seem faulty, and might be worth carefully cleaning and/or replacing. (see https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Kickstand_Switch). I'm not sure why that's worth irritation at Zero - sensors get dirty and can fail after 7 years in the field without maintenance. That's life with machines. You can disable the kickstand switch interlock via the MBB console (at your own risk) but it'd be better to fix the sensor while you wait for the battery to recover.
I want to reiterate that the cell voltages and isolation fault listings are absolutely critical. I think you should plan to take the front plate off of the battery and inspect the BMS fully (very carefully) to see whether it seems to be clean. There are a particular set of contacts from the BMS to the cells that are at full voltage but might have or be causing issues.
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Please extract and post or decode those BMS logs to see all the cell voltages individually, and probably more information about isolation faults.
Your kickstand switch does seem faulty, and might be worth carefully cleaning and/or replacing. (see https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Kickstand_Switch). I'm not sure why that's worth irritation at Zero - sensors get dirty and can fail after 7 years in the field without maintenance. That's life with machines. You can disable the kickstand switch interlock via the MBB console (at your own risk) but it'd be better to fix the sensor while you wait for the battery to recover.
Thanks Brian. Are the BMS logs the same as the bin file attachment that I posted in reply #12 of this thread?
As for the kickstand problem, I suspect it has something to do with Zero's app, since the problem occurred immediately after I used their app (which told me to put the stand down when I was using the app) to get the bin file.
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Please extract and post or decode those BMS logs to see all the cell voltages individually, and probably more information about isolation faults.
Your kickstand switch does seem faulty, and might be worth carefully cleaning and/or replacing. (see https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Kickstand_Switch). I'm not sure why that's worth irritation at Zero - sensors get dirty and can fail after 7 years in the field without maintenance. That's life with machines. You can disable the kickstand switch interlock via the MBB console (at your own risk) but it'd be better to fix the sensor while you wait for the battery to recover.
Thanks Brian. Are the BMS logs the same as the bin file attachment that I posted in reply #12 of this thread?
No. If the filename has "MBB" in it, it's from the MBB. BMS logs have "BMS" in the filename. Pretty straightforward. You have to select that option when extracting logs from the bike, and it takes a much longer amount of time for technical reasons.
As for the kickstand problem, I suspect it has something to do with Zero's app, since the problem occurred immediately after I used their app (which told me to put the stand down when I was using the app) to get the bin file.
This is not something I want to get into, just pointing out an article that might help with troubleshooting.
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Unfortunately, the Zero app only gave me one choice for a log output, and that was the MBB file. I went a similar route on Zerospy, and it gave me the attached data (copied from its email to an rtf file by me). So if the latter isn't a BMS log, then I'm totally lost.
As for the kickstand issue, I feel like I dodged a bullet. When the bike just gave me the blinking red light, I took the car into work, and fretted all day about the possibility of having paid big $$$ for my own little Superfund brick. When I got home, I looked in the Zero manual, and all it said for a flashing red light, was call either Zero or the dealer (not a good option when the nearest dealer is 1,000 km away). So as a last resort, I tried the Zero app again. And then I read through the app directions again. And hey!, then I remembered that it told me to hit the kill switch when using the app. I had completely forgotten about that! But it makes one wonder why Zero didn't include this simple bit of info in the part of the manual that helps one to interpret the various flashing red light possibilities. >:(
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2013 models are hard to debug, and the lack of BMS logs (which I just recalled) would be pretty difficult for your situation. Can you log into the MBB console?
The 2013's Koso instrument cluster is also crudely minimal, so glad you were able to reason through the interlocks.
I'm not sure what to make of the ZeroSpy log. I'd need to know what the payloads mean.
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I just reviewed your MBB logs again, and honestly at this point I suspect your BMS has faults or something - that's the most likely component that has access to all the cells and they're sort of all 100kOhms to ground. Maybe the cell balancing circuitry itself has issues.
A little napkin math says that 116V divided by the 100kOhm to ground yields about 1mA (milliamp), so this ground is relatively subtle, not catastrophic, but the low cell(s) readings are a big warning sign that something else might be wrong.
So, I do think a careful inspection of the BMS (with photos) behind the front cover of the pack is in order. I don't know how to instruct you on electrical safety properly from afar, but know that the full pack 116V goes though there, so take care to retrieve/retain any bolts or washers with magnetic-tipped tools, and wrap any long tool elements (screwdriver shaft, wrench handle) with electrical tape to avoid making a contact between a live terminal and ground.
FWIW the way the dealer checks the BMS console and pulls BMS logs on a 2013 is through the front panel, plugging in a serial cable into the port under the grease.
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You're supposed to use the kill switch a bit more often than that ^-^;
-Crissa
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You're supposed to use the kill switch a bit more often than that ^-^;
-Crissa
I've been riding motorcycles since 1974, and as far as I recall, the kill switch was only ever intended as a device to play sneaky tricks on one's friends. :)
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So, I do think a careful inspection of the BMS (with photos) behind the front cover of the pack is in order. I don't know how to instruct you on electrical safety properly from afar, but know that the full pack 116V goes though there, so take care to retrieve/retain any bolts or washers with magnetic-tipped tools, and wrap any long tool elements (screwdriver shaft, wrench handle) with electrical tape to avoid making a contact between a live terminal and ground.
Thanks. I'll give it a go on the weekend (I've got a weird, frame-mounted fairing enveloping the bike, so it's a bit of a chore to even get to the battery).
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So, I do think a careful inspection of the BMS (with photos) behind the front cover of the pack is in order. I don't know how to instruct you on electrical safety properly from afar, but know that the full pack 116V goes though there, so take care to retrieve/retain any bolts or washers with magnetic-tipped tools, and wrap any long tool elements (screwdriver shaft, wrench handle) with electrical tape to avoid making a contact between a live terminal and ground.
Thanks. I'll give it a go on the weekend (I've got a weird, frame-mounted fairing enveloping the bike, so it's a bit of a chore to even get to the battery).
Yes, I remember your fairing very well. I'm glad you still use it. Take care and good luck.
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Speaking of batteries and vehicle ranges, I saw a report regarding a new Indian electric scooter with a 6kW motor and a 2.9kWh battery pack. The claimed range, using some sort of Indian government standard, was 116 km. Or 85km in the city - but likely not in "Warp" mode. Seems a bit much to get out of that size battery pack to me. ??? https://electricmotorcycles.news/ather-energy-is-redefining-urban-mobility-in-india-with-the-ather-450x/
Please stay on topic. I need to track this to enhance the battery troubleshooting topic on the unofficial manual.
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Sorry for the silence. _____ has been helping me (via email) to communicate with the battery via teraterm. Some delays, since a) the bike still works just fine, but with a slightly reduced range (and I'm fairly lazy), and b) the cord plug conductors had to be shipped in from overseas.
Anyway, I now have teraterm spitting out bits of meaningless (to me) text every 10 seconds, which I assume correlates to the info for an individual cell every 10 seconds. My questions now are:
Is my assumption about each text stream corresponding to a single battery cell correct?
and:
how many cells are in a 2013 Zero?
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It'll be 28 in series for ~116v, how many in parallel depends on the capacity. I think it's 2 for a half brick and 4 for the full brick (so 7.2 and 14.4 in today's models) so 56 and 112 cells respectively.
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It'll be 28 in series for ~116v, how many in parallel depends on the capacity. I think it's 2 for a half brick and 4 for the full brick (so 7.2 and 14.4 in today's models) so 56 and 113 cells respectively.
It is three bricks or four bricks so in total 84 cells or 112 cells
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So did they not have a half capacity version back in 2013 but instead a 3/4? I couldn't find anything in the unofficial manual about the different capacities over the years, I just assumed it was always either full or half.
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Thanks for that. I guess I should unplug the headlight while the data is being spit out, since by my calculations, it'll take about 20 minutes.
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Why unplug it? Are you worried about the power usage? A 60W bulb running for 20 minutes isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference, you could leave it on for days on end before running the battery down.
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Why unplug it? Are you worried about the power usage? A 60W bulb running for 20 minutes isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference, you could leave it on for days on end before running the battery down.
Good to know. I'll leave it as is...especially since it's a supreme pain to unplug the aftermarket headlight on my bike.
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My 2013 only gets used in the summer months, so in the winter, it has been stored in a somewhat heated garage (perhaps down to freezing at times), and charged every 90 days or so (as per the manual). But I've noticed that now it will only charge up to 8 bars on the speedo indicator (or the single red and double green lights on the battery indicators). I can leave it charging (via 110 volts), but at some point, it just wants to go to the "unbalanced" indicator (the 3 alternating flashing green lights). Is the battery on its way out? (The bike still seems just as responsive as it ever was).
Thanks in advance for any info.
ALL 2013 batteries were replaced. Did you not receive a replacement?
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ALL 2013 batteries were replaced. Did you not receive a replacement?
No, all 2012 S-platform were. Some 2013 batteries were, but no 2013 S were recalled for that reason.
https://motorcycleviews.com/recalls/rec13v257000.htm
-Crissa
PS Fixed for clarity, thanks Auriga.
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Technically all S/DS of 2012 were recalled, the FX platform was not. But you're right about 13 MY. :)
https://motorcycleviews.com/recalls/rec18v215000.htm
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The bulletin we received was that ALL 2013 owners were to be offered replacement. Still waiting on a 2015 recall.
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There aren't other bulletins out there. That's why I found their numbers.
https://motorcycleviews.com/recalls/motorcyclerecallsforzero.htm
Handy dandy little site. Hope it pays for itself.
-Crissa
-Crissa
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My 2013 only gets used in the summer months, so in the winter, it has been stored in a somewhat heated garage (perhaps down to freezing at times), and charged every 90 days or so (as per the manual). But I've noticed that now it will only charge up to 8 bars on the speedo indicator (or the single red and double green lights on the battery indicators). I can leave it charging (via 110 volts), but at some point, it just wants to go to the "unbalanced" indicator (the 3 alternating flashing green lights). Is the battery on its way out? (The bike still seems just as responsive as it ever was).
Thanks in advance for any info.
ALL 2013 batteries were replaced. Did you not receive a replacement?
No. I bought the bike (the floor demo) from All Season Motorsport in Calgary, when they were still officially a Zero dealership. Months later, they ceased being a dealer, and I didn't hear anything about the battery after that. When I had problems with the battery earlier this year, I emailed Zero, asking for info on my battery (I supplied the bike and battery serial numbers), but didn't hear anything back. I guess I should phone them.
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Zero is required by law to tell you when you register your bike with them, if there are any recalls on it.
Someone else would have had to send in your VIN to say it'd been repaired, to not be on that list.
And there's no recall of 2013 S-platform batteries that anyone else here knows of.
-Crissa
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Does anyone know about how long the tereterm battery info download takes? Currently, it has been spitting out code snippets for about a half an hour now.
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Zero is required by law to tell you when you register your bike with them, if there are any recalls on it.
Someone else would have had to send in your VIN to say it'd been repaired, to not be on that list.
And there's no recall of 2013 S-platform batteries that anyone else here knows of.
-Crissa
Dear Crissa, What ZERO is required by law to do and what ZERO does have little relation. MULTIPLE RECALLS and yet none.
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quixotic: People have had really inconsistent report, but it has taken a long time before.
AutoE: You've insisted there's a recall on 2013 batteries but no one else knows about it. And now you're accusing Zero of not notifying registered owners. It's up to you to support these allegations. It's a distraction in someone's support thread.
-Crissa
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Crissa, Are you a Zero Motorcycles employee? If you doubt the statement, ask Zero for a response in writing. Ask Zero which 2013 Zero motorcycles required battery replacement.
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So there's a mysterious recall that's not registered the oversight agencies and you have no evidence of.
Got it, AutoE.
-Crissa
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Are you aware of the recall on 2014 FX frames?
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Are you aware of the recall on 2014 FX frames?
Are you still derailing someone's thread making unsubstantiated allegations?
-Crissa
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Where is this thread going? ::)
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Eric,
I will get it back on the subject of batteries.
Did I tell you that my 2017 Zero DS 6.5 battery crapped out? That was great news, as it now has a 7.2 KWH battery in it (under warranty!) and what a nice big difference that made in range. In fact, I would not hesitate to ride it from Reno to Auburn, as I have no doubt it will easily make it to Truckee, and from there, I only have to get to Cisco Grove--all down hill from there. And I could also do Hwy 20 since they now have several J-1772's in NV City as well as in Grass Valley.
Lately, I have been mostly taking Hwy 20 between here in Auburn and Cisco Grove and then as many side roads as possible to Reno. But Donner Pass Road is closed for now, but from the west, I can still get to here (road is closed just a few yards/meters to the east of this very spot):
BTW, this photo was taken the same day you passed me on I-80 when you waved at me!
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Are you aware of the recall on 2014 FX frames?
Are you still derailing someone's thread making unsubstantiated allegations?
-Crissa
Crissa you never answered if you're a Zero Motorcycle employee or not? Perhaps a Zero Dealer? If only by virtual of our thousands of hours servicing hundreds of Zero motorcycles my statements, concerns are not unsubstantiated.
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Are you aware of the recall on 2014 FX frames?
Are you still derailing someone's thread making unsubstantiated allegations?
-Crissa
Crissa you never answered if you're a Zero Motorcycle employee or not? Perhaps a Zero Dealer? If only by virtual of our thousands of hours servicing hundreds of Zero motorcycles my statements, concerns are not unsubstantiated.
Here's a list of all Zero's recalls:
https://motorcycleviews.com/recalls/motorcyclerecallsforzero.htm
Note how 2014 does not have any recalls for frame related issues. Neither has there been no evidence or word from Zero to support a 2015 battery recall either. I work at one of the largest and oldest dealers in the US, and we have never replaced a 2014 frame or a 2015 battery for recall related reasons.
Being the terminated Israeli dealer is NOT enough evidence for this claim. If you have actual evidence post it in a different thread.
Please stop derailing this guy's battery support thread.
@quixotic Brian is right, a dealer could probably get more info on the BMS and battery. But I suspect it would point right back to the battery. Those aren't cheap to replace, and require a harness swap as well. Probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-8k dollars. I'd call Zero with your VIN, if your battery was part of the 2013 monolith upgrade campaign, Zero will pay to do the work, even outside warranty.
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Ask ZERO about the FX Frame Recall. Ask them in writing and demand and answer in writing.
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Surely if it's a recall it has to be public knowledge and you shouldn't have to ask the manufacturer about it.
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Surely if it's a recall it has to be public knowledge and you shouldn't have to ask the manufacturer about it.
Surely, and yet here we are.
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Surely if it's a recall it has to be public knowledge and you shouldn't have to ask the manufacturer about it.
Surely, and yet here we are.
So then it isn't a recall. A recall implies that the manufacturer acknowledges a fault and actively contacts customers and makes the knowledge public and then replaces or repairs all potentially faulty components whether they are actually faulty or not.
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A "recall" has to be reported to NHTSA in the US and relevant agencies in Europe(I think there's one for every country but I don't really know).
It's all public and easily searchable. It's a crime to conceal a safety issue, and Zero would be sued. Remember the Pinto?
Zero and all other auto manufacturers also do Technical Safety Bulletins for non safety related issues the manufacturer discovers. Zero does send notice of these to dealers, and pays for these. They also usually contact owners if your ownership is registered with them. The 2013/2104 Monolith Upgrade Campaign, and many others, fall into this category. I think you also have to report these to NHTSA, but they're harder to find.
If you want to know if your bike is impacted, you can always call with the VIN and ask them.
So AutoE either has evidence that Zero has a safety problem that could be a recall or he has nothing. Considering there are hundreds of other dealers in the US and EU, and not one has spoken out, I lean towards nothing.
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Yes, AutoE know what others don't. This occurs when your 10% of all fleet mileage and critical to the development of multiple models and iterations. Ask Zero in writing. Post their response. Don't be afraid.
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Yes, AutoE know what others don't. This occurs when your 10% of all fleet mileage and critical to the development of multiple models and iterations. Ask Zero in writing. Post their response. Don't be afraid.
Why don't you post it? I think it's reasonable to ask you to verify your own claims, not get other people to do it for you. If this is such a massive issue that only you know about what even makes you so sure that Zero would even admit it to us plebians?
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Yes, AutoE know what others don't. This occurs when your 10% of all fleet mileage and critical to the development of multiple models and iterations. Ask Zero in writing. Post their response. Don't be afraid.
Why don't you post it? I think it's reasonable to ask you to verify your own claims, not get other people to do it for you. If this is such a massive issue that only you know about what even makes you so sure that Zero would even admit it to us plebians?
You should first see how Zero treats you "plebs". We will then post all relevant and supporting docs. One cut at a time.
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You claim to be on the customer's side and to want to help where Zero won't, yet you're going to make us jump through hoops before you post useful information?
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Are you aware of the recall on 2014 FX frames?
Are you still derailing someone's thread making unsubstantiated allegations?
-Crissa
Crissa you never answered if you're a Zero Motorcycle employee or not? Perhaps a Zero Dealer? If only by virtual of our thousands of hours servicing hundreds of Zero motorcycles my statements, concerns are not unsubstantiated.
@quixotic Brian is right, a dealer could probably get more info on the BMS and battery. But I suspect it would point right back to the battery. Those aren't cheap to replace, and require a harness swap as well. Probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-8k dollars. I'd call Zero with your VIN, if your battery was part of the 2013 monolith upgrade campaign, Zero will pay to do the work, even outside warranty.
Yes, I suppose I should at least pick up the phone. But I did email them more than a month ago, asking if there were any problems with the 2013 battery (along with my battery and bike ser #), and there has since been no reply.
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Yes, I suppose I should at least pick up the phone. But I did email them more than a month ago, asking if there were any problems with the 2013 battery (along with my battery and bike ser #), and there has since been no reply.
[/quote]
No quixotic. Not the phone. EMAIL. Document it. Send an email every few hours asking the same question. Send it delivery and read receipt if you have that functionality; cc: yourself and your counsel/attorney.
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Yes, I suppose I should at least pick up the phone. But I did email them more than a month ago, asking if there were any problems with the 2013 battery (along with my battery and bike ser #), and there has since been no reply.
No quixotic. Not the phone. EMAIL. Document it. Send an email every few hours asking the same question. Send it delivery and read receipt if you have that functionality; cc: yourself and your counsel/attorney.
It sounds like your email just got missed. You can call the same number dealers call for Technical Support, and they're available every weekday west coast time from about 9 to 5. Should be a quick answer.
If you're interested in suing, you can always record the call or ask for an email confirming their response.
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Be careful about recording calls, that's illegal in California without their permission.
-Crissa
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Oops. Not if you're overseas ;D. Strongly suggest you record any calls, better yet, EMAIL.
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I'll just give them a call.
Here are my cells, by the way. Finally found out how to communicate via teraterm.
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Oops. Not if you're overseas ;D. Strongly suggest you record any calls, better yet, EMAIL.
Still illegal. But thanks for putting it on record why you're no longer a dealer and probably not going to be allowed in the states.
-Crissa
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Oops. Not if you're overseas ;D. Strongly suggest you record any calls, better yet, EMAIL.
Still illegal. But thanks for putting it on record why you're no longer a dealer and probably not going to be allowed in the states.
-Crissa
Not illegal. Not at all. Good of you Crissa to confirm you work for Zero.
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Oops. Not if you're overseas ;D. Strongly suggest you record any calls, better yet, EMAIL.
Still illegal. But thanks for putting it on record why you're no longer a dealer and probably not going to be allowed in the states.
Not illegal. Not at all. Good of you Crissa to confirm you work for Zero.
You really do like to jump to conclusions and accuse, don't you?
If you do something illegal in one state, you're going to be giving up your right to enter or do business in that state - even if that state can't reach you outside. Doesn't change the legality of the action.
-Crissa
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If you do something illegal in one state, you're going to be giving up your right to enter or do business in that state - even if that state can't reach you outside. Doesn't change the legality of the action.
-Crissa
[/quote]
Hi Crissa, So you work for Zero Motorcycles and you're a licensed attorney? Please share with us which state you barred in.
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Since when do people need to be a licensed attorney to know what things are legal to do, and that doing things that aren't legal to a party across a visa control boundary will get you in trouble if you try to cross it?
Like, maybe not common knowledge, but it seems like it's kinda obvious? Pulling a Polanski isn't for everyone, you know.
-Crissa
PS, who I am and what I do (and which bike and when I bought it) are all threads on this forum.
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Recording a phone call is a high crime? How would you categorize consumer fraud? Not accusing anyone or anything... just asking as I find this very interesting. With regards to Zero, tell them that you're recording if concerned. Didnt Kim and Kayne record a call a few years back? Sure ZERO has recorded calls for "customer service puposes" and if they refuse to "allow" you to record, you can and likely should assume the worse. Polanski, seriously, whatever he may or may not have done, is nothing compared to the damage an irresponsible, ethically challenged automotive manufacturer can inflict. Not accusing anyone of anything...
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Recording a phone call is a high crime?
Irrelevant. It's just a crime in California without consent of both parties.
https://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/california-recording-law
They ask you for consent, you can deny it by telling them you deny it or hanging up.
And functionally, CBP can exclude or remove you for pretty much anything they want to. Just being mentioned in a police report (say, because you did that and someone reported you) would do it.
-Crissa
And asserting someone has done a crime, without positive evidence, is a civil offense, which can bar you from the US if you refuse, as you've done in this thread, to submit to US authority under Section 212(a)2A of the Immigration and Nationality Act. (Google gave me that one on the state.gov website.)
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So I was able to start the dobal function, using the teraterm software (see attached text file). Is dobal actually able to balance cells? I told it to stop after a short while, since I wasn't sure about its capabilities.
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dobal can balance batteries with a couple caveats. The BMS's ability to balance cells is fairly weak, it is not enough to overcome a battery defect/signifigantly aged cell, and it's very slow. I usually leave it for 8-12 hours. If you don't see any progress, then it won't be fixed that way.
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So I was able to start the dobal function, using the teraterm software (see attached text file). Is dobal actually able to balance cells? I told it to stop after a short while, since I wasn't sure about its capabilities.
What firmware version is on the pack/monolith?
Who provided LEVEL 3 password?
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Just an update since last august. Since then, I've gotten a 240v line installed for charging, and have, for days at a time, just left the bike plugged in (and for much of that time, the 3 little green lights on the battery would indicate that balancing was occurring...p. 6.4 in the manual). Whereas before, I could only get 8 bars of charge on the speedo, I can now get all 11 bars. And now, when I do the dobal command via the TeraTerm software, it indicates a mere 38 mv of imbalance 4085 min and 4123 max. (compare that to the 210mv imbalance shown in the txt file above). This is puzzling, since the Zerospy software indicated on March 13th (and the bike in the meantime was not used or plugged in) a voltage of 3423 min and 4126 max.
I'll leave the dobal command working for another 12 hours or so, to see if there's any improvement, but after that, I'll check the Zerospy results again. But given the big discrepancy in the Zerospy (March 13th) vs TeraTerm (March 28th) results, I'm wondering if they're looking at the same thing. (?)
I'm also wondering what imbalance level might be normal?
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So I was able to start the dobal function, using the teraterm software (see attached text file). Is dobal actually able to balance cells? I told it to stop after a short while, since I wasn't sure about its capabilities.
What firmware version is on the pack/monolith?
Who provided LEVEL 3 password?
Sorry. I've been asked not to say who provided the password. But I'm mighty glad that he/she did, given that the nearest Zero dealership is now 1,000 km's away, and that when I emailed Zero about my battery problems, they didn't even bother to answer my email.
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Sounds like you're solving the battery issue with conditioning. That's good!
-Crissa
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Well, that dobal command seems to be doing something. Just in the few hours since I last posted, the imbalance went from 38mv to 35mv (currently sitting at 4083/4117).
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Imbalance down to 31mV now, so I'd estimate that every couple of hours, the mV goes down by 1. Yippee!
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So I'm new here, and I've been reading around and found this thread interesting so I read through the entire thing, skipping over the page of people going horribly off topic. I just wanted to add/ask wouldn't a good way to get cells back in balance be to drain the battery pretty low (like 5% SOC) and then let it charge for three days? That would pull all the voltages down to more similar levels, then give the BMS time to balance everything. I see your imbalance is back to an "okay" level now, but it still could be way better. At full SOC on my 2017 I only have a 3mV imbalance.
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No, it only balances once per charge cycle by default.
-Crissa
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I got the imbalance down to 5mV, so I took the bike out for a spin. It ran just fine, and the 11 bars went down to 9 in about the number of miles it used to. So I'm ultra-happy with that, since up until I got the dobal function working, I was thinking of getting rid of the bike and getting an ICE machine instead.
The only remaining weird thing is that ZeroSpy is telling me that I'm still about 500mV out of balance. Oh well, the bike seems to know better.
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Could be a rounding error in the app. Is it always *100?