ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: 2014ZeroSR on May 13, 2020, 11:08:39 PM
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Maximum longevity - How should the Energica battery be cared for?
80/20 rule - I’ve normally followed this rule,
i.e. keep the battery SOC between 80% and 20%.
If I do charge above 80%, as the charge finishes, I normally ride straight away thus never leaving it in a high state of charge.
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Manual for 17 Eva -
Page 91 - “Correct Battery Maintenance”
Advises to discharge to 0%, then charge within 24 hours.
The entry begins - “It is recommended....”
Page 96 - “Charging the battery”
Advises to charge to 100%.
The entry begins - “For optimum performance...”
Furthermore - this entry states - ‘WARNING! An incorrect remaining range value may be indicated if all the instructions given in the chapters “Correct battery maintenance” and “Charging the battery” are not followed correctly.’
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To 100%, I’ve observed the battery seems to only balance only when fully charging per the displayed message at around 98%, never at any other %.
Also - I sometimes notice when balancing, to fully attain 100%, it takes longer. (This behavior is correct per “Charging the battery” information.
LPR - Bike display - When activated, nothing is displayed so I can’t say for sure the battery optimized at 80%.
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What’s correct for maximum longevity?
Follow the 80/20 rule or the manual without fail?
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Follow the 80/20 rule. I believe the manual needs revision.
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Follow the 80/20 rule. I believe the manual needs revision.
MVetter - Thanks for your input.
Manual revision is in order?
Any value in the following info? - Lex Summer’s Youtube - titled - “More performance and range, how to calibrate your battery on Energica”.
I saw his info/video originally highlighted on the latest Energica newsletter - Rider-E May 2, 2020. (Side note - Rider-E newsletter - it’s informative).
MotoE series - Any idea what battery care/maintenance is being performed on all the Energica race bikes?
What prompted me to review the manual ask questions is because of Lex's video.
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Up until a couple years ago, Zero manual said that as soon as you uncrated the motorcycle, it should be plugged in to the outlet.
Any time that the motorcycle was not being ridden, it should be plugged in to the wall. If These instructions weren't followed, you
could void your warranty. All recent editions have been re written. Trying to find one of my ORIGINAL USB Thumb drives.
If anyone has one, check it out.
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The dealer said: follow the manual, everything is logged and if you deviate from the manual you could void your warranty.
So simple: to be safe follow the manual and if the battery fails you have warranty.
The BMS should take care of things, we are also not sure if 100% charge (which is bad if you leave it to long at 100%) is in real life 100%. Maybe the BMS keeps it at a lower charge and gives only a display of 100% and 0% is not really 0% (it's not after reset you can still drive a little bit)
Without knowledge how the BMS exactly works, just follow the manual.
Energica can make changes to BMS via updates so we have to trust things will be ok.
Maybe new app will give more information.
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Follow the 80/20 rule. I believe the manual needs revision.
For the 20/80 rule, what would be an appropriate way of taking care of cell balancing then? Charge to 100% once per month? once per week? Once per year? (or once per xxxkm)?
Thanks!
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The dealer said: follow the manual, everything is logged and if you deviate from the manual you could void your warranty.
So simple: to be safe follow the manual and if the battery fails you have warranty.
The BMS should take care of things, we are also not sure if 100% charge (which is bad if you leave it to long at 100%) is in real life 100%. Maybe the BMS keeps it at a lower charge and gives only a display of 100% and 0% is not really 0% (it's not after reset you can still drive a little bit)
Without knowledge how the BMS exactly works, just follow the manual.
Energica can make changes to BMS via updates so we have to trust things will be ok.
Maybe new app will give more information.
I will say this much, the maximum voltage at the SOC of 100% on my 2014 Zero S was 117 volts, while the voltage of my 2018 S is 115 volts. So I think that Zero has been taking steps to insulate their battery packs a bit from the impact of being left at a maximum charge for too long - like I do with my bike. :-[
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Follow the 80/20 rule. I believe the manual needs revision.
For the 20/80 rule, what would be an appropriate way of taking care of cell balancing then? Charge to 100% once per month? once per week? Once per year? (or once per xxxkm)?
Thanks!
Once a month should be fine. Also charging to 100% is not necessarily bad provided it does not stay there very long. One really nice thing about these bikes is you can easily set a targeted SoC. Last night I set mine to 80% and went to bed. Easy.
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Also charging to 100% is not necessarily bad provided it does not stay there very long.
With 'very long' would you mean what for example?
Or otherwise asked - charging up to 100% in the evening once a week and using the bike the next morning - would you say this is very long?
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Once a month should be fine. Also charging to 100% is not necessarily bad provided it does not stay there very long. One really nice thing about these bikes is you can easily set a targeted SoC. Last night I set mine to 80% and went to bed. Easy.
What I would like to know is about the warning when FAST CCS charged above 80% that says do not disconnect until finished, for the balancing.
Is it okay to disconnect at 90% many times in a row as long as it is completed once in a while, such as every six or so charges to full?
I assume it does NOT really have to balance every time over 80%. And IMO, it makes little sense as there is no warning about disconnecting at 60% and there is still no balancing done until near the end of being fully charged. So what is the difference?
So how important is it to NOT disconnect when it says not to? What is the difference in balancing when disconnected at 60% compared to 90%? Is there any difference? If not, why the warning near the full charge?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Up until a couple years ago, Zero manual said that as soon as you uncrated the motorcycle, it should be plugged in to the outlet.
Any time that the motorcycle was not being ridden, it should be plugged in to the wall. If These instructions weren't followed, you
could void your warranty. All recent editions have been re written. Trying to find one of my ORIGINAL USB Thumb drives.
If anyone has one, check it out.
Yikes don’t do that, even with your cell phone!
I think it was a lot more than 2 years ago Zero stopped that recommendation.
30-70 is supposed to be even better than 20-80 and 40-60 better still.
Cell balancing takes a long time on a Zero as well.
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2014 ZeroSR has pointed out Lex Summers video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeFTEVhnH0w
May I ask about a specific point:
For recalibration / reballancing the battery he recommends to deplete the battery completely. Then to turn off the bike, turn on again and deplete it once more. The same procedure for two to three times, until the bike does not move anymore.
After that IMMEDIATE charging of the battery with slow AC up to 100%.
Is this save?
Does it really help?
Does it work for other batteries than the Energicas?
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Or otherwise asked - charging up to 100% in the evening once a week and using the bike the next morning - would you say this is very long?
IMO, that is fine. Just don't leave it fully charged for several weeks in a row.
The shorter the time left fully charged the better, so where we want to draw the line may vary depending on whom asked.
I often FULLY charge to 100% the night before on any of my four EVs when I expect to use it on a long trip in the morning.
My battery on my Zero DS crapped out during warranty, but it was charged much the same way as my SR battery which is the same age and is still as good as new. Smaller batteries normally don't last as long on similar loads.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I think it was a lot more than 2 years ago Zero stopped that recommendation.
Zero STILL has the recommendation for the older batteries.
It's only the newer batteries (2016 and later?) that they say store at a 60% charge. The older batteries are still to be charged to 100% at all times stored.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Here's a fun way to think about it. There are 8760 hours in a year. How many of those hours is your battery above 80 and below 20? For me, because I'm pretty paranoid about it, probably under 200. I suspect a lot of people leave it over 80 and under 20 for more than half the year. That will add up.
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I can't imagine leaving it half the year, but there are alot of little trips to eat up the top 20% on even my S ^-^
-Crissa
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To all, Thanks for the input.
MVetter - Lots of valid points - Maintain between 80/20, Monthly to 100% for balancing, Sounds good. Thanks.
After reviewing the manual, I was curious, I decided to attain 0%.
Went for a ride, returned with about 7%, then drove back and forth somewhat slowly (~ 15-20 mph) on the road in front of the house.
At 5%, sure enough, the warning appeared - "Activating Limp Mode, Low Battery SOC ...."
I deactivated the warning.
Shortly after achieving 3%, 1 mile remaining, the SOC immediately dropped to 0%.
Top speed was now 22 mph.
Now parked, charging overnight at 120vac / 6 amps.
Tomorrow, perform a range test.
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The more aggressively you ride the earlier Limp mode will appear. I've done a lot of highway miles and seen it come up as high as 15%. Again though. I am the worst human example. No one should ride like I do.
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The more aggressively you ride the earlier Limp mode will appear. I've done a lot of highway miles and seen it come up as high as 15%. Again though. I am the worst human example. No one should ride like I do.
I had Limp mode appear at 18%. Now this was at 10°C at highway speeds, on a day where I hadn't recharged/balanced overnight, and after CCS charging from 20-80 multiple times the previous day.
Wasn't riding aggressively though. Just 120ish (km/h)
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I'm just leaving my Ego plugged in with it set to "LPR" mode.
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I dare to re-ask the question I asked earlier in this thread but has not been answered as far as I can see:
May I ask about a specific point:
For recalibration / reballancing the battery he [lex summer in his youtube video 'BMS calibration'] recommends to deplete the battery completely. Then to turn off the bike, turn on again and deplete it once more. The same procedure for two to three times, until the bike does not move anymore.
After that IMMEDIATE charging of the battery with slow AC up to 100%.
Is this save?
Does it really help?
Does it work for other batteries than the Energicas?
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Is this save? Is what what?
Is it safe to ride your bike?
-Crissa
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Crissa, out of your reply now I'm not sure if
a) my question is not clear or
b) if I asked a stupid question
In case of a)
Is the battery not in danger of damage if one follows this procedure?
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I dare to re-ask the question I asked earlier in this thread but has not been answered as far as I can see:
May I ask about a specific point:
For recalibration / reballancing the battery he [lex summer in his youtube video 'BMS calibration'] recommends to deplete the battery completely. Then to turn off the bike, turn on again and deplete it once more. The same procedure for two to three times, until the bike does not move anymore.
After that IMMEDIATE charging of the battery with slow AC up to 100%.
Is this save?
Does it really help?
Does it work for other batteries than the Energicas?
The KTM manual printed text are sort of similar.
How one would deplete the battery with a street bike near the charging spot (multiple times) would seem problematic. I have area uphill from my charging point and coast once it goes no more.
The battery really should only depete to the point the battery management allows it to so this may not be really helpful unless mentioned in the owners literature.
The part "does it really help" is what I am curious about. I read that parts inside these kind of batteries change in length as the charge cycles from full to empty or empty to full.
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How about c) your question is unclear via typo or d) your question is difficult to answer for lack of further specific context.
I think it means 'Drive around the parking lot until it runs out'.
...Although I don't know what they're expecting this to do; it's not a 90s era lithium with crystalline memory problems (like early cell phones) or a battery management system which should attempt to map amperage to voltage like Apple devices do as it doesn't have control over most of the power draw.
-Crissa
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Yeah, I'm not doing that drain until it's dead thing. No way. Even if my neighbors are cool with me driving up and down our road constantly, I'm not going to push a 650 lb bike up my drive way to plug it in! Lowest I got mine down before charging it up is 3%.
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Yeah, I'm not doing that drain until it's dead thing. No way. Even if my neighbors are cool with me driving up and down our road constantly, I'm not going to push a 650 lb bike up my drive way to plug it in! Lowest I got mine down before charging it up is 3%.
When you're down to 0 SOC, you should have at least a few miles left.
IIRC, the book says it should be done once in a while, perhaps was just to calibrate the SOC. But I have not done it yet either.
I start to get range anxiety when I am not much below 50%!
-Don- Reno, NV
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Just watched this vid from Lex Summer, this guy's nuts (in a good way)!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p90cFy7Ces0
I'd be freaking out if my bike shut itself down. Glad to see it can come back to life, and get you home if you're close.
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Lex is hilarious.
Heh, I had my Zero die at 10% going up a 10% grade about a quarter mile from my house (almost all of it up hill).
-Crissa
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Lex is hilarious.
Heh, I had my Zero die at 10% going up a 10% grade about a quarter mile from my house (almost all of it up hill).
-Crissa
Zeros don't count in this section.
FWIW, I finally drained my Energica down to limp mode just because the manual says it should be done once in a while.
When I got back to my Auburn house, after a long ride a couple of days ago, I only had a few % SOC left. So I rode it around that area until I got down to limp mode, which was at 1% (not 0% as it says in the manual). I didn't have the guts to find out if it would really go down to 0 SOC, I rode it perhaps another mile and then slow recharged back to full, using 120 VAC, with my portable fan, since the bike's fan was not then yet replaced.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Ehh, pushing a bike up a hill is still pushing a bike up a hill. It took both of us!
And it was probably just not happy because it was 90-something out, I'd just ridden 86 miles over 2500' passes twice, and it hadn't been ridden that much in months or ever. It could happen to any EV.
-Crissa
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Ehh, pushing a bike up a hill is still pushing a bike up a hill. It took both of us!
And it was probably just not happy because it was 90-something out, I'd just ridden 86 miles over 2500' passes twice, and it hadn't been ridden that much in months or ever. It could happen to any EV.
-Crissa
I wonder why your SOC is off. The norm is to be able to get a few miles even after 0 SOC.
If I let my SS9 go totally dead, even near home, I would have to call a tow truck unless was down hill. So when I was down to 1% SOC in limp mode, I stayed up hill from my Auburn house as much as possible.
Such would not be possible here in Reno because I am on the very top of the hill. All directions are downhill from here.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Well, like I said, it was its first big trip in years: it's prior owner did not us it like that. Second, hills and heat increased its error rate; I can't know if one of the error codes it was flashing was some component too hot, because I didn't know how to download the logs at the time.
Lastly, the grade was steep. That seems to really throw my Zero and its little battery for a loop. Limp mode is there for a reason, drawing too many amps at the end of the curve on a lithium battery is likely to throw voltage off the cliff.
Not much of a mystery.
-Crissa
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This is a good topic, how come nobody talks about thermal degradation and only SOC? Momentary extremes (hours maybe not days) for SOC is harmless compared to heat extremes even momentary ones. LG_Chem for pouch cells are rated to 60C operation, Energica allows 40C which is a pretty good de-rating. No expert here by any standard, particularly with NMC chemistry, but heat is the devil that causes the pouch swelling and the physical constraints of each cell's packaging causes the mechanical stresses that degrades the cell further. Energica rates their batteries for racing and the tolerance for heat is outstanding but as an owner if you temper your charging and discharging habits on >90F days and ride like you stole it on <50F days, one will be surprised at the longevity gained versus totally ignoring the thermals. SOC is easy to manage in comparison. The battery warranty suitably represents the potential for damage - the actual longevity is surprising, 1/4 million miles at 25C or something like that, when the topic was discussed w/ Energica - maybe they were pulling my leg just to sell me a bike...