ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: Richard230 on May 04, 2020, 07:38:42 PM
-
I found this new Verge TS electric motorcycle interesting, mostly because of the styling and the open rear wheel hub motor. The bike is a bit pricey though, at 25K Euros (about $27.5K) and you will have to wait for your bike to arrive someday as they are only accepting pre-orders:
https://electricmotorcycles.news/ts-from-verge-motorcycles-is-ready-for-pre-order/
-
Hub/rim motor. whyyyyy. The industry does not need this sort of innovation, it needs comfortable familiarity, tried & tested reliability, and most of all, inexpensive.
Cas :)
-
Now that would be hard to argue with....
-
More wheel torque than an SR/F, but with all that unsprung weight on the rear wheel it'll have a harder time laying it down. Hopefully it has decent traction control.
-
It'll also be harder to change the rear tire.
Mainly, I'd feel way better if those cables were covered, or ideally just not set up to flex regularly at all.
-
Really really interesting... and expensive.... we need more detailed specs!
-
I've just noticed that it has a hydraulic lever on the left but no mechanical rear brake so I'm wondering what that's for.
-
I've just noticed that it has a hydraulic lever on the left but no mechanical rear brake so I'm wondering what that's for.
Looking at the pictures in their media area it looks like there is a line on top of the three yellow jacketed conductors.
-
It'll also be harder to change the rear tire.
Can't be too hard as it says:
"tire changes can be completed using conventional tools."
-Don-
-
I've just noticed that it has a hydraulic lever on the left but no mechanical rear brake so I'm wondering what that's for.
Looking at the pictures in their media area it looks like there is a line on top of the three yellow jacketed conductors.
I imagine that's probably for sensors of some kind, I wouldn't have thought they'd go through the effort of trying to squeeze a brake disc into that rim as well (no ventilation in there so even more heat). My guess is they've gone the complicated route of using hydraulics to move a servo to control how much regen is applied to the rear wheel.
It'll also be harder to change the rear tire.
Can't be too hard as it says:
"tire changes can be completed using conventional tools."
-Don-
Doesn't mean it won't be fiddly and require the removal of a ton of bolts. There's at least four bolts required to remove the hub/rim from the swingarm (and you can't use a regular paddack stand to hold up the rear of the bike) and then however many it takes to separate the rim from the hub (there's at least 12 bolts on each side).
-
It'll also be harder to change the rear tire.
Can't be too hard as it says:
"tire changes can be completed using conventional tools."
-Don-
Why are you so credulous? Try telling that to a motorcycle service department and see how they feel about it.
Even balancing the wheel after replacing the tire must present at least an equipment problem.
I asked professionals about hub motors (everyone with experience with them doesn’t want to deal with them) and related cleverness before I generalized that this looks harder.
-
Relatedly, I nearly killed myself the other night on the 690, hit a pothole at 60-70 ish. Dinged the front wheel, £550 for a new one. That's just a normal, 120/70 17" KTM wheel, the kind of which they make thousands. Wouldn't like to buy a new wheel for this thing.
Cas :)
-
I won't be so quick to write this off as an overpriced, dead-end toy. I'll reserve judgement until we see testimonials and video. By spacing the magnets, they are able to boost torque. Larger surface area may help with heat dissipation. It may be possible to lighten the design as it does not have the concentrated stresses found in a more typical smaller motor. At the moment, that's a lot of unsprung weight, but could improve in future models. Who can predict where this will lead? I'm not an engineer, but like seeing such innovations. Electric motorcycles have fewer constraints than ICE, so why must they look and perform like ICE bikes?
Why did they go with the fat Judge Dredd tire on the back? Not sure that this concept needs to be that wide to generate 80kw. Something to do with handling or protecting the rims from damage?
-
And it's not like there's not other bikes with unsprung weight, especially not in history. That spinning weight gives you more balance, too. I bet they feel like a rock when you're at speed.
Using extra rubber to protect the motor would also make sense; we won't really know until they start putting miles on, I guess.
And unlike alot of other concepts, they are at least paying lipservice to aiming to make it cheaper as time goes on.
-Crissa
-
Wide tyres = softer rubber able to cope with torque. They don't offer more grip just because they're wide, it's because they can make the rubber softer and not get torn to shreds.
From a handling perspective, you want the narrowest tyres possible, with the absolute lightest unsprung weight you can get away with. 1kg off a wheel is worth 10kg off of anywhere else.
From a cost perspective you want the cheapest thing that does the job of a wheel, and funnily enough for the last 10000 years nobody has yet come up with a better way to do it than an axle in a hub, because that really is the best way to make a wheel. Rim drive has popped up now and again several times before, and ... disappeared without trace. I see a pattern.
Cas :)
-
It has advantages that require lots of precision to solve. Which we have now. Spacing out the magnets makes the pulse pattern much more efficient.
There'll always be a balance between, is the materials and precision going to cost more than the parts to balance it out? Maybe today is the day that answer is 'no'.
-Crissa
-
Princec.
" Wide tyres = softer rubber able to cope with torque. They don't offer more grip just because they're wide, it's because they can make the rubber softer and not get torn to shreds.
From a handling perspective, you want the narrowest tyres possible, with the absolute lightest unsprung weight you can get away with. 1kg off a wheel is worth 10kg off of anywhere else."
This is basically a completely incorrect statement.
The size of the contact patch is optimal for a tyre and motorcycle system. If the contact patch gets too big the pressure at the patch is less and there is less grip, and if too small the pressure is too high and the rubber will be overstressed and break grip.
Motorcycle lean, so the contact patch travels all over the tyre this helps keep the compound cooler and distribute the wear.
A larger tyre also is PART of the suspension. It does most of the micro vertical travel. The larger the tyre the more the tyre can deform to take up road surface variability. This is particularly important when leaned over and the suspension travel is effectively less compliant ( cos of included angle).
Narrower tyres are actually better for straight line speed ( for a number of reasons), not just areodynamics. See speed record attempts.
The big problem with going too wide or too narrow is the SHAPE and position of the contact patch .
You are correct about the importance of unsprung weight though, which is why hub motors on motorcycles are not such a great idea. The wheel weight relative to total system weight is much higher than most powered vehicles, so is extremely important to dynamic handling.
BTW wider does not necessarily mean lighter. On one of my smaller racing motorcycles I had a problem getting a tyre. I needed a 150/60 but could only get a 130/80. The 130/80 was 2kg heavier than the 150/60! Needless to say it didn't stay on long...
And yes wheel/hub has huge benefits over everything else so far. But never underestimate the innovation potential of humans.
-
Don't forget that a wider tire is seen by many motorcycle customers as providing superior handling and traction - because that is what they see on race bikes. However, that can end up with a tire that is a bit too wide for the job, but was selected by the marketing team as something that will improve sales. ;)
-
Uh, it is not any way an incorrect statement but I'm not going to argue about it in here.
<edit>Actually no I realise that this will just end up in a stupid forum argument so here's a link to divert everyone's attention: https://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae200.cfm
Yes I know it's about car tyres but the basic gist of it is exactly the same.
Cas :)
-
Yes, you got into a stupid forum argument because there is a too wide and a too narrow.
-Crissa
-
I ... don't recall an argument about too wide or narrow?
Cas :)
-
Main issue: motorcycles in the US are legally required, according to my sources, to have an actual rear brake. Not just regen. Disc or drum.
-
Main issue: motorcycles in the US are legally required, according to my sources, to have an actual rear brake. Not just regen. Disc or drum.
And I think I also heard the brakes have to be more powerful than the engine / motor. IOW, the brakes will slow down the vehicle even if stuck at WOT.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Check out the exploded diagram of the Verge electric motorcycle's rear wheel/electric motor on their website: Very interesting, but I wonder how heavy it is, how will it affect handling and ride comfort and what will it be like to change the rear tire? And I bet it costs a bundle to manufacture and from all unique components, too. https://www.vergemotorcycles.com/us/
-
Check out the exploded diagram of the Verge electric motorcycle's rear wheel/electric motor on their website: Very interesting, but I wonder how heavy it is, how will it affect handling and ride comfort and what will it be like to change the rear tire? And I bet it costs a bundle to manufacture and from all unique components, too. https://www.vergemotorcycles.com/us/ (https://www.vergemotorcycles.com/us/)
When they say "With the 20.2 kW battery" do they mean 20.2 KWH?" Any real specs on the thing?
I hope that rear direct drive proves to be reliable. I like the idea of no belt, chain or shaft but not so much of a new design that doesn't have many hundreds of thousands of miles of road testing.
I also like the weird looks.
-Don- Auburn, CA
-
Here is a screen shot of the motor so you don't have to decide whether to accept their cookies or continue without consent.
I want to see what is essentially the wheel bearings. I put some yellow next to the attachment point to the swing arm?
-
The ring next to the brake disc will be the bearing. I wonder if it's some off the shelf component or custom.
-
Verge has announced another new model, the 2023 Verge TS Ultra, with very impressive specifications and a price to match:
https://thepack.news/verge-motorcycles-introduces-it-3rd-model-verge-ts-ultra-at-ces-2023/
-
I'm looking forward to these being available for a test ride. I've ridden a prototype a few months ago so I know it's not vapourware, but I wasn't able to give it a proper test to see if their claims are realistic.