ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: MostlyBonkers on May 04, 2020, 12:00:18 PM
-
Who would like to see Zero implement a Vectrix style regen on the throttle?
Vectrix made scooters which were ahead of their time. One really nice feature was the ability to twist the throttle forward and apply progressive regen. If the scooter was stopped, it would go in reverse. It's such an intuitive and easy way to control regen that I'd love to see it implemented on more motorcycles.
Yesterday I managed to find the patent that Vectrix holds for their regen system and discovered that it expires towards the end of 2022. That would give Zero plenty of time to develop the same kind of control for their bikes, I would hope. I don't know if patents can be renewed, for whatever reason, but if so, perhaps Zero could even pay a small license fee in order to implement this design?
I dropped an email to Dale Robinson, our UK manager yesterday and he kindly said he'd forward it to Abe Askenazi, Zero's Chief Engineer. That should ensue it gets some attention at Zero HQ. However, in the meantime, I was curious to see how many folks would like to see this feature on their bikes? It might help Zero ascertain whether or not to implement it too. They have a good track record of implementing features that customers have been keen on.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US6724165B2/en
-
I'd like to see them implement stronger regen (apparently they only allow about 10% of what the hardware is capable of) and add an electrical lever on the left side to control it (a thumb lever would probably be best to minimise the risk of people instinctively pulling it thinking it's a clutch), then if it's held while stopped and the throttle is twisted the motor spins in reverse.
The problem with having a throttle that twists forward is I don't want to have to worry about accidentally applying braking at the rear wheel under heavy front braking, while riding off road, or just pushing the bike along.
-
A slow reverse would be helpful getting out of tight parking spots.
Sent from my Armor_6E using Tapatalk
-
I'd like to see them implement stronger regen (apparently they only allow about 10% of what the hardware is capable of) and add an electrical lever on the left side to control it (a thumb lever would probably be best to minimise the risk of people instinctively pulling it thinking it's a clutch), then if it's held while stopped and the throttle is twisted the motor spins in reverse.
The problem with having a throttle that twists forward is I don't want to have to worry about accidentally applying braking at the rear wheel under heavy front braking, while riding off road, or just pushing the bike along.
Excellent point there TheRan, and suggestion too. Perhaps both would be really nice, with the throttle regen having an option to disable it, for those that don't like it for off-road use. I don't see pushing the bike as being a problem as this would be done with the power switched off, wouldn't it? If the power is on then there's little point in pushing. I may have missed something there though.
I think your thumb lever control would also be useful under heavy breaking when the right hand is occupied using the break lever.
-
Most of the time when pushing the bike I have the kill switch on and the side stand down, I was more thinking of manoeuvring the bike when off road and using the throttle to power it forward wouldn't be appropriate. thinking about it more though flipping the killswitch in that situation wouldn't be a huge hassle either and would be a good habit to get in to. This has got me thinking about how great reverse would be for riding off road too and now I really want it.
-
Who would like to see Zero implement a Vectrix style regen on the throttle?
Vectrix made scooters which were ahead of their time. One really nice feature was the ability to twist the throttle forward and apply progressive regen. If the scooter was stopped, it would go in reverse. It's such an intuitive and easy way to control regen that I'd love to see it implemented on more motorcycles.
Yesterday I managed to find the patent that Vectrix holds for their regen system and discovered that it expires towards the end of 2022. That would give Zero plenty of time to develop the same kind of control for their bikes, I would hope. I don't know if patents can be renewed, for whatever reason, but if so, perhaps Zero could even pay a small license fee in order to implement this design?
I dropped an email to Dale Robinson, our UK manager yesterday and he kindly said he'd forward it to Abe Askenazi, Zero's Chief Engineer. That should ensue it gets some attention at Zero HQ. However, in the meantime, I was curious to see how many folks would like to see this feature on their bikes? It might help Zero ascertain whether or not to implement it too. They have a good track record of implementing features that customers have been keen on.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US6724165B2/en
The SR/F, SR/S do provide progressive regen off throttle (although no reverse, that would be nice). That's why I have everything set to 1oo% in my custom setting, it really works great.
Steve
-
I really loved the Vectrix-type throttle when I test-rode one of their scooters. In fact, I thought it was the best feature of the scooter. This was 10 years before I bought my first electric motorcycle and I still fondly recall using it. I think it would be great if Zero implemented this feature on their motorcycles in the future.
For my type of riding though, I would not use a separate lever to activate regen and would have no need for an option to deactivate the throttle-regen feature.
-
Who would like to see Zero implement a Vectrix style regen on the throttle?
Vectrix made scooters which were ahead of their time. One really nice feature was the ability to twist the throttle forward and apply progressive regen. If the scooter was stopped, it would go in reverse. It's such an intuitive and easy way to control regen that I'd love to see it implemented on more motorcycles.
Yesterday I managed to find the patent that Vectrix holds for their regen system and discovered that it expires towards the end of 2022. That would give Zero plenty of time to develop the same kind of control for their bikes, I would hope. I don't know if patents can be renewed, for whatever reason, but if so, perhaps Zero could even pay a small license fee in order to implement this design?
I dropped an email to Dale Robinson, our UK manager yesterday and he kindly said he'd forward it to Abe Askenazi, Zero's Chief Engineer. That should ensue it gets some attention at Zero HQ. However, in the meantime, I was curious to see how many folks would like to see this feature on their bikes? It might help Zero ascertain whether or not to implement it too. They have a good track record of implementing features that customers have been keen on.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US6724165B2/en
The SR/F, SR/S do provide progressive regen off throttle (although no reverse, that would be nice). That's why I have everything set to 1oo% in my custom setting, it really works great.
Steve
How does that work then, what does it use to determine how much regen to apply?
-
The more you roll off the throttle the more regen it applies. Very similar to what is described on the Vectrix, but just no reverse. It's pretty natural. I think it's not 100% progressive, more like stepped (like 3-4 steps between max and min) but it still feels works well. I rarely need my brakes.
Steve
-
So can you roll the throttle forward, past the neutral position where it rests with no force applied (like the Vectrix)? If not then 0% throttle must be 100% (of the set maximum) regen and anything above that is less than 100% regen, I wonder how it determines whether for example to apply 70% regen or drive the motor with 20% torque.
-
I would totally like a feature like the vectrix, but I would take an off-side brake lever.
But not a thumb lever.
-Crissa
-
I'm with Richard230 on this.
Having had EV's with a MUCH more prominent regen, it's something i miss having on the throttle now.
Also i wouldn't mind having a slow creeping reverse feature. I manage without, but it would make backing into the garage a little easier.
-
What if modest rear brake pedal (0-50%) controlled regen progressively, enough to cover 95% of all speed reduction, while firm rear brake pedal (50-100%) engaged the hydraulics? It might be intuitive, without any new controls, while maximizing regen and obviating the need for ever replacing pads or rotors. So while going down a long hill, we'd just drag the rear brake like normal, except we wouldn't be wearing out brakes.
Controlling regen, aka rear braking, with the front brake is only marginally acceptable to begin with. It's not acceptable for off-road applications. For on-road, it's one of those things that takes away control from the expert rider on behalf of the average rider. Therefore it's something that needs to be enabled or disabled per rider. Rear brake regen would not require such settings.
Rotating the throttle backward could be reserved for reversing from 0 to -1 km/hr. That would also be awesome, and iintuitive because throttle controls speed. We'd get another big feature that comparable ICE bikes won't ever get.
One other idea: if regen is strong enough to slip the rear wheel, and I suspect it truly is, and so it could handle 95% of all braking, maybe rear ABS could be implemented by pulsing regen and save some hardware.
-
The foot pedal doesn't have the same feedback or travel as a hand lever or throttle.
Otherwise, I agree.
-Crissa
-
So can you roll the throttle forward, past the neutral position where it rests with no force applied (like the Vectrix)? If not then 0% throttle must be 100% (of the set maximum) regen and anything above that is less than 100% regen, I wonder how it determines whether for example to apply 70% regen or drive the motor with 20% torque.
No, this is not how it works on my SR/F
If you are traveling at a certain speed and have the throttle at a certain position to maintain that speed, moving the throttle towards zero engages the regen. The further you move the throttle towards zero increases the amount of regen. Moving the throttle all the way to zero engages the full configured regen amount.
Make sense?
-
The foot pedal doesn't have the same feedback or travel as a hand lever or throttle.
Otherwise, I agree.
-Crissa
That is especially true for me when I am wearing my clod-hoppers as I travel to a hiking trail. I have no dexterity worth mentioning in my feet. ;)
-
I bought a new Vectrix in 2007 and one of the nicest things about it was the throttle control. The twist grip was very intuitive in its operation. There was a neutral point that was spring loaded. Rolling the grip rearward worked like the normal throttle on the Zero. Release the grip back to it's neutral point and the scooter would coast with no regenerative braking. Roll the grip forward and you would start to apply regenerative braking. The more you turned it, the more braking you got. I usually used this means of stopping the scooter during normal driving. The Vectrix did not have a foot brake but had brake levers on each end of the handlebar which is common in scooters. On my Vectrix I swapped the brake levers so the front brake was on the left side and the rear on the right--opposite from the factory position. It was unnatural to try to control the rear braking effort with the twist grip while applying the front brake with the fingers of the same hand that was being used to control the rear brake. Once stopped the grip could be rotated forward and the scooter would reverse. It would not reverse until a complete stop had been made and the twist grip was returned to it's neutral position. I seem to recall a light on the dash warned you that you were in reverse. As noted in the original post, the people that hold the remnants of Vectrix still hold the patent. The fact that we haven't seen it on any other electric motorcycles/scooters means they either aren't interested in licensing it or they want a very high price for the license.
Even if we cannot get the throttle controlled regenerative braking on a Zero, It would be nice to have a hand operated brake lever on the "clutch" side of the handlebar in addition to the foot brake (or in lieu of it) similar to a scooter. I know it isn't motorcycle style to have hand brakes but with absence of a clutch lever or anything else to to with your left hand, it wouldn't hurt to have it there. If you look at the Pikes peak SR/F you will see it is fitted with a hand brake on the left handlebar. If its good enough for racing----well you get the point!
-
I have to say I had a vectrix as my main commuter for a few years and its regen was perfect.
Although my srf is good with regen maxed out I still can’t come to a complete stop with it like I could with the vectrix.i used to commute through central London barely touching the brakes.
Other things missed are the reverse gear (as you mentioned), I’m amazed that isn’t on the bike as it makes backing out of a tight parking spot so easy.And surely very easy to implement with an induction motor.
And I miss having the rear brake on the left handlebar. No need to be using our feet now is there, once gears are a thing of the past?
-
Sometimes you need both hands and for the bike not to move (or to move).
-Crissa
-
Sometimes you need both hands and for the bike not to move (or to move).
-Crissa
That's why if I ever get around to adding a hand rear brake I'll be using a splitter and keeping the foot brake. Many a time I've needed both hands to sort something with my helmet, close a pocket on my jacket, or pull off my gloves to work my phone but been on enough of an incline that the bike would roll.