ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Harley LiveWire Forum => Topic started by: Richard230 on April 08, 2020, 09:10:45 PM
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Here is a direct comparison between the Livewire and the Zero SR/F with lots of instrumented numbers and interesting comments. As you might expect, the $9K more expensive Livewire came out on top of the Zero in most areas of performance, range, handling and build quality.
https://www.cycleworld.com/story/motorcycle-reviews/2020-harley-davidson-livewire-vs-zero-motorcycles-srf-premium/
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I think costing about 50% more is more than 'sticker shock'.
-Crissa
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It's a really good review.
As for H-D... why didn't they look at Tesla's Supercharging deal? (ie. free supercharging for life for buying their halo car). That would be an excellent carrot, and cost them literally a few quid a year per customer, and luring punters into H-D showrooms periodically too for coffee & cake...
Cas :)
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They could weigh them but not get under them with a tape measure for ground clearence?
Without reading the whole thing do they actually say what the battery capacity is in term of nominal? It seems real common to count max voltage times amp hours and we all know the voltage drops as the charge % goes down at least with the lithium based batteries.
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It's a really good review.
As for H-D... why didn't they look at Tesla's Supercharging deal? (ie. free supercharging for life for buying their halo car). That would be an excellent carrot, and cost them literally a few quid a year per customer, and luring punters into H-D showrooms periodically too for coffee & cake...
Cas :)
I'm not sure exactly what you're implying H-D should do but Tesla has been trying to rid themselves of that deal for the last few years as it's HEMORRHAGING money for them. The deal is gone from all new vehicles as well as used vehicles that previously had it as soon they change ownership.
Without reading the whole thing do they actually say what the battery capacity is in term of nominal? It seems real common to count max voltage times amp hours and we all know the voltage drops as the charge % goes down at least with the lithium based batteries.
They don't but I can tell you if you'd like to know. The LiveWire is 13.6kWh and the SR/F is 11.6kWh.
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I was wondering about the Livewire's motor revving to 14K, compared with the Zero's motor topping out at 7K rpm. Would that affect the longevity of the Livewire's motor? And are there advantages to a high revving electric motor over a low revving model?
The power and torque curves were something of a contrast between the two motors, also. ???
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I think the power and torque differences at lower rpm reflects a programming decision Zero made, for safety or something else.
The testers fail to appreciate level 2 vs level 3 in the US at present. The older guy clearly is clueless on the difference. Zero wins this one, at least for now.
IMO, HD has made a much better riding and handling moto over a wider variety of road conditions. Zero aimed at glass smooth pavement and track days, and hit that mark. O/w the video review is spot on.
The testers totally missed that the HD has no grip heaters or luggage options, which are fatal flaw issues for commuters and cold weather riders.
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Zero aimed at glass smooth pavement and track days
Track days? The bike is completely air cooled.
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I was wondering about the Livewire's motor revving to 14K, compared with the Zero's motor topping out at 7K rpm. Would that affect the longevity of the Livewire's motor? And are there advantages to a high revving electric motor over a low revving model?
The power and torque curves were something of a contrast between the two motors, also. ???
I would expect it kinda works like ICE motors. IOW, they are designed for different speeds for various reasons and that doesn't mean high revving is more unreliable in a different design.
My Harley, for an example revs very low. So red line is low. My TTSE Revs high, so the red line is also high. Revving as high on the Harley engine would destroy it. The redline on my TTSE is more than twice the speed of my Harley. Either engine should last a few hundred thousand miles.
I cannot think of any logical reason why an electric motor designed speed would be much different. Just another engineering decision.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Here is a direct comparison between the Livewire and the Zero SR/F with lots of instrumented numbers and interesting comments. As you might expect, the $9K more expensive Livewire came out on top of the Zero in most areas of performance, range, handling and build quality.
https://www.cycleworld.com/story/motorcycle-reviews/2020-harley-davidson-livewire-vs-zero-motorcycles-srf-premium/
Very interesting article. I was surprised by the Livewire's acceleration numbers (beating the Zero) both in the quarter and high speed pass tests given the posted specifications on horsepower and torque on each bike. For me, other than the 10K difference in price, lack of Level 2 charging @ 6KW would be a deal breaker for me at this point (in Zero's favor). There are nearly zero level 3 chargers in this neck of the woods, and more importantly, none in my garage or in my work parking lot (there are Level 2's at both locations, not that the works side matters this spring). I'll have to give a Livewire a test ride one of these days, but plan to stick with my SR/F for a while.
Steve
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I saw both of these bikes at an auto show in January and although I am biased towards Zero, the Livewire looked good. The review is really informative; I would have expected the Zero to out-perform the Livewire given the HP and weight numbers. It is disappointing that they found flaws in fit and finish on the SR/F. I really didn't expect the Livewire to come away the winner.
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MVetter: yes track days! There are lots of posts about this, youtubes etc. The SR/F doesn't have the overheating issues of earlier generation Zeroes. Of course at track speeds, the range is pretty short.
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The range information in the video is different than what they wrote in the article. In the video they indicated they the SR/F went a few miles farther then the Livewire, and the way they spliced the footage together indicates that too. Either way, I would consider a single test with different riders on the same road that ended withing a few miles difference between bikes inconclusive or approximately the same, since riding gear, riding style, body position , or even tire pressure could cause more than a couple miles of difference in range to either bike.
Also I wouldn't read to far into the nervous feel, suspension issues or other rideability opinions. These are riders who nitpick bikes for their living, they are comparing two well refined bikes, and pointing out subtle differences with bikes as they came from the factory, i.e no suspension setting adjustments. If small differences in handling are a really big issue to you, you will need to test ride the bikes yourself, however I suspect the difference in suspension feel and handling feel when riding near the limits of the bikes will have much less impact on people's decision when purchasing one of these bikes, compared to appearance, seating position, charging options, and available accessories, and dealer location.
And I am still waiting for one of these comparisons to include a bike from Energica, it is like they can't find a third person willing to ride an electric bike for a day 😉
-ryan
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MVetter: yes track days! There are lots of posts about this, youtubes etc. The SR/F doesn't have the overheating issues of earlier generation Zeroes. Of course at track speeds, the range is pretty short.
It definitely does. 2 laps max at Seca before thermal cutback. It's *better* than previous models but the battery is still functionally the same and takes a while to cool off.
And I am still waiting for one of these comparisons to include a bike from Energica, it is like they can't find a third person willing to ride an electric bike for a day 😉
I am very much looking forward to the next time you're in our area. Let us know when and we'll try and find an Energica for you play around on if you've not had the chance.
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The other thing to ponder is that Cycle World is kept afloat by advertising. When was the last time you saw a Zero ad in a Cycle World magazine and how often do you see one for Harley Davidson? That might have affected the article's spin a bit. ???
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MVetter: yes track days! There are lots of posts about this, youtubes etc. The SR/F doesn't have the overheating issues of earlier generation Zeroes. Of course at track speeds, the range is pretty short.
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It definitely does. 2 laps max at Seca before thermal cutback. It's *better* than previous models but the battery is still functionally the same and takes a while to cool off.
And I am still waiting for one of these comparisons to include a bike from Energica, it is like they can't find a third person willing to ride an electric bike for a day 😉
MVetter, thanks for correcting me. I had not seen that before.
If you (or anyone else here) have substantial experience with the live wire, SR/F and Energica models, I would appreciate your knowledge regarding a good choice for a rider not looking for a sport bike, but rather for a relaxed and easy commuter and tourer.
Thanks
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MVetter, thanks for correcting me. I had not seen that before.
If you (or anyone else here) have substantial experience with the live wire, SR/F and Energica models, I would appreciate your knowledge regarding a good choice for a rider not looking for a sport bike, but rather for a relaxed and easy commuter and tourer.
Thanks
That is a short list, comprising here of probably me and Electric Cowboy. All of the bikes have their own strengths, so I will focus on those.
The SR/F and SR/S are solid machines. They traditionally excel as commuters, but with it now natively embracing J1772 you can definitely go out, burn the full pack down, enjoy a long lunch, and do it again. Level 2 stations are plentiful. The bike has plenty of power, and of course Zero has added all the fancy bells and whistles of Bosch with this latest version.
The Energica bikes have higher end components, more power, and natively embrace DC Fast Charging. On the previous model year you can fill the pack in ~20 minutes. With the new + models and their 21.5kWh packs you're looking at closer to 40 minutes on a full charge. But they have the most power, highest top speed, fastest charging, most range, and are cheaper than the SR/F Premium. They also do have level 2 charging. Both the inverter and the motor are liquid cooled.
The LiveWire is surprisingly well-made. Rider position is a little weird for my taste, like it can't decide if it wants to be sporty or more relaxed commuter. Yes, you're upright but I felt the footpegs were too high. Bike is well-balanced and handles well. Where it EXCELS is performance. Because they capped the top speed at 114 the thing is geared to haul like a rocket from 0-114. It also has the best performance at low state of charge we've ever seen. Every other bike we've ever ridden has noticeably reduced power near the bottom end of the battery. Not so with the LiveWire. It does, however, cost $30,000 and has very strange charging. Either wall plug or DC fast charge. If you plug it into a level 2 it will only go at wall plug speed. So it's either an 11 hour or 1 hour charge, no in between. The motor is liquid cooled as well.
In terms of sheer comfort I don't think you can beat the Energica SS9 or SS9+. Big, comfy seat. Upright. Relaxed bar position. Touring again has to go to Energica by sheer virtue of the fact that it has both the longest range and the quickest charging.
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Thought I'd better chime in on the weight issue as well, which is significant... I've not had the pleasure of riding the LiveWire yet though. The SR/F felt perfectly normal, weight-wise, sorta Bandit 1200 ish. The Energica SS9 felt like it was hewn from a block of tungsten, BMW R1200RT sort of weight, but squeezed into a smaller space. Oddly I didn't feel the benefit of the weight in the ride quality, which felt just as choppy as the SR/F. The LW as I understand it sits more or less exactly in between.
Cas :)
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SR/F is about 500 lbs I believe? Before adding in Power Tank or Rapid Charger. LiveWire is about 550 I think. Newest Energicas are about 600.
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Yes, SR/F is just over 500lbs.
Per the websites, the SS9 has the highest seat at 31.9 inches, which could be an issue for riders with short legs and a heavy motocycle.
princep, thanks for the insight about ride quality, specifically that the SS9 has choppy ride quality like the SR/F, not a good thing on rough roads. I've played around a bit with my SR/F suspension settings which so far has not made a big difference.
As for the SS9, I wonder if the Ohlin's upgrade could offer a more plush ride, or if it's simply a matter of adjusting the stock shocks.
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Hang on a second... choppy ride quality? Explain what that means to you, please. Do you mean suspension or an issue with power delivery?
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Yes, SR/F is just over 500lbs.
Per the websites, the SS9 has the highest seat at 31.9 inches, which could be an issue for riders with short legs and a heavy motocycle.
princep, thanks for the insight about ride quality, specifically that the SS9 has choppy ride quality like the SR/F, not a good thing on rough roads. I've played around a bit with my SR/F suspension settings which so far has not made a big difference.
As for the SS9, I wonder if the Ohlin's upgrade could offer a more plush ride, or if it's simply a matter of adjusting the stock shocks.
Over the past 30 years I have tried Ohlins shocks on both Hondas and BMWs, with disappointing results. They seem to set up their shocks for a heavier rider than me for use on a race track and they never worked well for my light weight, solo riding on public streets - in spite of me requesting their lightest spring and softest damping. Unfortunately, Ohlins never seemed to have acted upon my request. :(
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Suspension. I found both the SRF and SS9 to feel somewhat harsh. I was more surprised by the SS9, as I figured the weight would mean the suspension had an easier time of it. It could have just been set up for someone heavier than me (mind you I'm 100kg/14st or so, so kinda normal).
Mind you I am spoiled by my 690. And my X-Adv come to think of it. And 15 years on GSes...
Cas :)
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Hang on a second... choppy ride quality? Explain what that means to you, please. Do you mean suspension or an issue with power delivery?
Suspension, see above replies.
I've had a few pucker moments on the SR/F. OTOH, on smooth pavement, it's a dream to ride.
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I live in the Milwaukee area, keep that in mind. My SR/F has 3700 miles on it. My Livewire has 5200 miles on it. The Livewire has more even pull than the Zero. Both are set up the same. Tour pack, heated grips, jacket heater controllers, pull back handle bars, and both have Zero touring windshields. The SR/F had about 3200 miles when I bought the Livewire.
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I have a few comments on this thread, will attempt to keep coherent. As far as L2 vs DCFS in the U.S., L2 are plentiful NOW but, upcoming installs seem to be leaning towards DCFS.
Riding the Zero around town is fine with existing L2s. Attempting to take the Zero on the road can be iffy if DCFS or L1 are the only choices. I live in Las Vegas. There are hundreds of
L2s all over the place, most still free. I have been to two ribbon cuttings this year along the Interstate 15 and both were DCFS. One of our Senators leans Green and arranged to have
a Zero SR/F there for photo ops. There was nowhere for it to be charged ( 110 was there but not available to us ). In Mesquite where the latest DCFS was, there appear
to be more DCFS options than L2( at least 3 locations ). Fortunately, I brought my Bolt, so did not need to charge. There was only ONE SLOW L2 and a Tesla destination charger available besides the DCFS
( that we could find ). Most of the stations that charge a fee are similarly priced between L2 and DCFS. Per KW I would rather take an average break than a LONG one and get in more riding.
While the SR/F and SR/S spec to 12 KW, most L2s in the U.S. charge at less than 7 KW ( from MY experience ). If I am just going around town, charging with L1 at night would work.
Not sure if this is the same article that I read a week or so ago, but, they were surprised as well by the Livewire beating the Zero. I THOUGHT that I had read that the Livewire only had a top speed of
around 100 mph, which was far surpassed by the 1/4 mile time.
A week or so before that, I read where someone took a Livewire on some German roads and easily did the Iron Butt. The first leg claimed to be about twice the distance that HD claimed, so I agree
with poster above who said that they should be tested with multiple riders testing both bikes. I have been offered the Livewire for a test ride, but, with 3 Zeros and no intention of buying, I passed.
As far as price, A fully loaded SR/F SR/S isn't THAT far off of the price for Livewire entry. However, I don't believe that there is that much to upgrade on the Livewire.
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. I THOUGHT that I had read that the Livewire only had a top speed of
around 100 mph, which was far surpassed by the 1/4 mile time.
A week or so before that, I read where someone took a Livewire on some German roads and easily did the Iron Butt. The first leg claimed to be about twice the distance that HD claimed
LiveWire's top speed is, again, 114mph. The Swiss rider has little to no details about his ride available other than it went back and forth between two points 6 times aka not an iron butt. Also the math on the ride is incredibly suspicious. As I am quite familiar with the range and charging on the bikes what was reported is virtually impossible unless the rider had a big fat vehicle behind which to draft the entire way. Numbers just do not add up, and they won't get back to me with data and specifics.
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People aren't going to be adding CCS chargers to their homes or places of work any time soon. They're just much bigger and more expensive than L2 AC as they require more physical hardware.
L1 charging should be sufficient for nearly all commuting, given enough charge points, but it will be frustratingly slow for anyone at the long end of a commute. And having to add in a special stop to a charger is also frustrating, CCS fast or not.
-Crissa
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People aren't going to be adding CCS chargers to their homes or places of work any time soon. They're just much bigger and more expensive than L2 AC as they require more physical hardware.
L1 charging should be sufficient for nearly all commuting, given enough charge points, but it will be frustratingly slow for anyone at the long end of a commute. And having to add in a special stop to a charger is also frustrating, CCS fast or not.
-Crissa
I'll agree that Level 1 is "good enough" for most commuting. At least it was for me with a 50 mile one way. The bike would always be topped off a little after lunch on a normal day (2016 DSR, I get in early!). Level 2 is nice to have though so that if I need to run an errand during the day (like running to the bike dealer, closer to work than home), it's not a problem, and I can go for an evening ride with full power a little over an hour after I get home from work, rather than not having that option with level 1.
I understand it's different in other areas of the country, but there are NO dc fast charging stations any where near my home, or near my office, and there won't likely be one in my garage any time soon either. I can't see that changing overnight either.
Steve
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I live in the Milwaukee area, keep that in mind. My SR/F has 3700 miles on it. My Livewire has 5200 miles on it. The Livewire has more even pull than the Zero. Both are set up the same. Tour pack, heated grips, jacket heater controllers, pull back handle bars, and both have Zero touring windshields. The SR/F had about 3200 miles when I bought the Livewire.
Heated grips on the LW, how did you do it? The dealer I test rode with says not an option.
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Harley does not like it, but tuff.
You buy a 30 amp relay from an auto parts store. Hook it to the blue wire from the 40 amp fuse.
I used a battery tender wire so I could fuse it with a 20 amp fuse.
I took a wire from the bottom wire on the head light to trip the relay.
The handle bar is wired for the heated grips.
You need the relay so you never drain the 12 volt battery.
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Thanks.
I confess I was hoping for a non pirate version. Cold hands is a fatal flaw for the LW for me. Hope they fix this with the next upgrade.
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Good luck with that.
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I'll hold that thought. HD announces upgrades in August. A local dealer tells me HD has gotten the word about luggage and grip heaters.
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Does LiveWire do ‘over the air updates’ to its firmware?
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Did my first test ride on a Live Wire this afternoon. It's a really nice bike. Great handling and fit and finish was outstanding. While I liked the handling a little better than my SR/F, the acceleration in Sport mode felt pretty close to the same as the SR/F to me. The riding position seemed to be a little less cramped than the SR/F, but it was a short ride (and I have a bar riser and the lower pegs on my SR/F). The center of gravity feels much lower on the Live Wire, probably one of the reasons for the better handling.
Anyway, for me, the lack of 6KW Level 2 is a bit of a deal breaker (unlike most folks). I have 6KW level 2 at home and work and would really miss it, and we have next to no DC fast charging around here (other than at the harley dealer). It's a great bike, but not worth the extra 10K, to me anyway.
Steve
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It would certainly have been clearer if the power and torque graphs in that article had the same scale!
One thing it does show though is how Zero tame down the low end power - a little too much in my opinion. The only reason the power graph for an electric motor is lower at low rpm is because they've decided to sacrifice acceleration for rider safety. I can see why, but it would be nice to be able to decide for yourself with the equivalent of Tesla's ludicrous mode.
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Interesting that they used Zero’s entry-level SR/F, rather than the top-of-the-line (i.e. PowerTank). The range comparisons would be a lot different.
Just the fact that it is possible to add a second battery pack is a huge advantage, IMO.
I, too, would love to see a three-way comparison between the Livewire, SR/F, and an Energica.
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You can't get the Powertank for the SR/F yet can you?
Cas :)
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The SR/F puts its charger up there, I don't think it ever will.
-Crissa
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The SR/F puts its charger up there, I don't think it ever will.
-Crissa
I think you're confused with the charge tank that gives 12KW. IIRC, the SR/F puts their one (Std models) or two 3 KW chargers (Premium models) under the seat, so it will NOT interfere with the charge tank or the power tank. But between 12 KW and the power tank, one most choose. You can charge as high as 6KW with the power tank added (Premium models) or can charge at 12 KW with the charge tank added, but not both.
Since I am not an SR/F owner, perhaps such should confirm this.
-Don- Reno, NV
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For the SR/S and the SR/F Zero uses the term 3KW Rapid Charger and 6KW Rapid Charger in the accessories-PDF.
Instead of Charge Tank for the older models.
I guess 'Rapid Charger' is better as it describes more unambiguously what it does and therefore hopefully does less often lead to confusion with the Power Tank.
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Don, the plugs go where the Power Tank would.
I don't think they have any plans to put a small battery into their tank location.
-Crissa
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Don, the plugs go where the Power Tank would.
I don't think they have any plans to put a small battery into their tank location.
-Crissa
I cannot say if they have it available, but I know Zero lists the power tank as an option on the SR/S and SR/F. It says here it (https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-srf) "should be" available in March 2020, which is already past.
The SR/F has a 200 mile city range with the power tank, it says.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I rode last weekend with Carla - she told me she had the PowerTank battery in her SR/S. I think Terry Hershner also has the PowerTank?
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I rode last weekend with Carla - she told me she had the PowerTank battery in her SR/S. I think Terry Hershner also has the PowerTank?
Beta testers? ;)
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A couple posters mentioned Track Days / Racing, and it being air cooled; if anyone has any questions about the Race Weapon of the Zero, please watch this video, and remember, it was recorded over 5 years ago, when the Live Wire was still just a spark. Like the video says, try and count the number of bikes it passes - easier to count the bikes that pass it, I count Zero:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMVwtJWoFkI
Warren, the 'S' owner.
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A couple posters mentioned Track Days / Racing, and it being air cooled; if anyone has any questions about the Race Weapon of the Zero, please watch this video, and remember, it was recorded over 5 years ago, when the Live Wire was still just a spark. Like the video says, try and count the number of bikes it passes - easier to count the bikes that pass it, I count Zero:
uhhhh
Zeros overheat almost immediately on the track. A video of that guy passing a bunch of tiny old cafe racers is not what one might call compelling evidence. Fun fact: Zeros can do two laps at Seca before thermal cutback happens and power is limited. Look, the air-cooled IPM motor they designed and built is phenomenal for 99% of regular riding. But no, it can't handle sustained full power laps at the track. That's why Refuel is a single lap Time Trial.
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Having ridden both and opted for a LiveWire because it came with dealer support and - still to me after a year's ownership - terrific performance on a flawlessly finished product - I can confirm that when I was in the EU for work and got stuck there due to border closures, I rented a LW from an EU dealership and besides just commuting, took it out on the autobahn, where it kept up close to 180km/hr for 20 minutes (with very short periods of braking back to 130-140 to overtake) and it ran absolutely fine flat-out. Mind you, had to find a Level 3 charging station quite soon thereafter :-)