ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: JaimeC on March 28, 2020, 10:27:42 PM
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Since I've been pretty much "socially distancing" myself from everyone (both voluntarily and involuntarily) I've had PLENTY of time for reading. One thing that has me wondering: I've seen people talking about the 12v battery failing in the BMW eScooter and I've seen discussions here regarding the SR/F and it's 12v battery. A video I watched explaining electric vehicles (seriously though... even though they said "vehicles" it was ALL about CARS) said they all had a twelve volt battery.
However... I have NEVER heard of a 12v battery in either my 2016 or my 2018 S, even though it obviously has a 12 volt electrical circuit to drive the horn, headlights, tail lights, brake light and accessory socket.
Does it have a 12v battery? If not, how come they can get away with NOT having one and everyone else on the planet seems to feel they needed to add one when they designed their vehicle (INCLUDING Zero with their latest generation models)??
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SR/S and above have a 12v battery- earlier models not
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However... I have NEVER heard of a 12v battery in either my 2016 or my 2018 S, even though it obviously has a 12 volt electrical circuit to drive the horn, headlights, tail lights, brake light and accessory socket.
The older Zeros use a "DC to DC converter". It also regulates the voltage so it stays at 13.8 VDC regardless of the main battery voltage where it gets its power.
But some vehicles need power when the key is out. Or when no real key is involved, such as my Tesla. It has a 12 volt battery so it can receive updates and such when the car is off otherwise. The older Zeros have no such requirements and can be totally shut down when off. Key must even be in for the emergency blinkers, unlike most other vehicles.
IIRC, Energica does it a third way. I think it runs from a 12 volt tap from the main battery. The method used and why in each is a part of the design.
In my Tesla, if the 12 volt battery goes dead, I will not be able to open the doors from the outside. So they have two wires hidden behind a plug that I can use 12 volts on to open the doors. But I have also seen that happen in an ICE vehicle that I once owned. But there is no real key to use in Teslas. But in either case, you're not going anywhere without 12 volts from somewhere. So the Tesla issue is not really any larger than any other vehicle with a 12 volt battery.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I vote it's a redundant safety measure that was overlooked for weight savings and simplicity pre-SR/F. If my Zero dies at 0% and opens the contactor, the lights all go out. I had it happen at night once. Having to cycle the key to get seconds of hazard light while pushing a bike across a street SUCKS. As it sits now, I don't ride under 5% like you shouldn't ride an ICE bike on fumes--one less thing to replace regularly.
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Okay, another "12v Battery Question" then: For those vehicles that DO have an accessory 12v battery... is it also Lithium based, or a more traditional lead acid based? I ask because I understand the main battery is what keeps the 12v battery charged and I'm assuming that means it tries to keep the battery at or near 100%. As has been discussed here many times, keeping a lithium battery at 100% for prolonged periods of time shortens its life whereas the lead acid batteries welcome being kept at a full charge to avoid sulfation...
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Okay, another "12v Battery Question" then: For those vehicles that DO have an accessory 12v battery... is it also Lithium based, or a more traditional lead acid based? I ask because I understand the main battery is what keeps the 12v battery charged and I'm assuming that means it tries to keep the battery at or near 100%. As has been discussed here many times, keeping a lithium battery at 100% for prolonged periods of time shortens its life whereas the lead acid batteries welcome being kept at a full charge to avoid sulfation...
Again, that's a design question. Lead acid is a lot cheaper than lithium-ion. But li-ion can work also and it doesn't need to stay at its full capacity to work and even if it did, it wouldn't be a big deal. The 12 volt battery will not cost thousands of dollars to replace, so keeping at a full charge is not much of an issue. Besides that, there are some lit-ion batteries that like a full charge, such as the older Zeros use.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I would assume the SR/x accessory battery is also lithium, since many new bikes are choosing lithium for its durability and lightness.
I don't know, and didn't look, tho.
The older bikes also don't have safety gear like ABS that need to function if the main battery goes out. On my Mazda when the battery fails, everything goes out, and it's really bad.
An accessory battery can provide a low amount of current for longer time and greater efficiency than a DC-DC board can. The SR/x bikes just recharge the accessory battery from the DC-DC board while the bike is on.
-Crissa
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Okay, another "12v Battery Question" then: For those vehicles that DO have an accessory 12v battery... is it also Lithium based, or a more traditional lead acid based? I ask because I understand the main battery is what keeps the 12v battery charged and I'm assuming that means it tries to keep the battery at or near 100%. As has been discussed here many times, keeping a lithium battery at 100% for prolonged periods of time shortens its life whereas the lead acid batteries welcome being kept at a full charge to avoid sulfation...
SR/F and SR/S have a 12V battery.
Quoting from the (SR/F) manual :
"Your Zero motorcycle is equipped with a 12 volt maintenance free battery to power the motorcycle’s systems when the key switch is in the OFF position."
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"The 12 volt battery is charged from the motorcycle’s power pack. During regular operation and when connected to a charging cable, the MBB (Main Bike Board) will monitor the 12 volt battery’s charge level to ensure that it’s charge level is maintained."
The battery is LiFePO4 technology, and is required for (at least) the always-on cellular connectivity.
The battery does NOT feed the 12V accessory connectors.
I am not sure how well tested or reliable this new set-up is.
I got (trustworthy) word that out of 10 sold SR/F's, at least 2 (including mine) had a failing battery. This is anecdotal, but nevertheless something to keep in mind.
My case (still unsolved, bike at dealership for the past month) seems a bit more complex :
after a 12V battery failure in the course of 24 hours during the weekend (guess what : I did not receive any pre-failure warnings from the "always-on" monitoring system via the cellular connection), a replacement battery at the dealership also went down the drain (pun intended), so in my guess (no word yet from Zero Europe), there is an issue with the MBB.
I am not quite sure I would have bought the bike, had I known beforehand, there is a 20% (anecdotal) chance I would have issues ; which, in my case, Zero seems unprepared to cope with (if a customer is left in the dark without updates, there is no other option than not hoping for the best, but expecting the worst).
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A sample of ten units is not enough to make an estimate of failure rate, although that rate certainly sucks.
Of course they're unprepared for their global supply chain to be stuck at home for several months. What system would be?
-Crissa
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Okay, another "12v Battery Question" then: For those vehicles that DO have an accessory 12v battery... is it also Lithium based, or a more traditional lead acid based? I ask because I understand the main battery is what keeps the 12v battery charged and I'm assuming that means it tries to keep the battery at or near 100%. As has been discussed here many times, keeping a lithium battery at 100% for prolonged periods of time shortens its life whereas the lead acid batteries welcome being kept at a full charge to avoid sulfation...
SR/F and SR/S have a 12V battery.
Quoting from the (SR/F) manual :
"Your Zero motorcycle is equipped with a 12 volt maintenance free battery to power the motorcycle’s systems when the key switch is in the OFF position."
...
"The 12 volt battery is charged from the motorcycle’s power pack. During regular operation and when connected to a charging cable, the MBB (Main Bike Board) will monitor the 12 volt battery’s charge level to ensure that it’s charge level is maintained."
The battery is LiFePO4 technology, and is required for (at least) the always-on cellular connectivity.
The battery does NOT feed the 12V accessory connectors.
I am not sure how well tested or reliable this new set-up is.
I got (trustworthy) word that out of 10 sold SR/F's, at least 2 (including mine) had a failing battery. This is anecdotal, but nevertheless something to keep in mind.
My case (still unsolved, bike at dealership for the past month) seems a bit more complex :
after a 12V battery failure in the course of 24 hours during the weekend (guess what : I did not receive any pre-failure warnings from the "always-on" monitoring system via the cellular connection), a replacement battery at the dealership also went down the drain (pun intended), so in my guess (no word yet from Zero Europe), there is an issue with the MBB.
I am not quite sure I would have bought the bike, had I known beforehand, there is a 20% (anecdotal) chance I would have issues ; which, in my case, Zero seems unprepared to cope with (if a customer is left in the dark without updates, there is no other option than not hoping for the best, but expecting the worst).
My 12v battery is also not holding voltage (can't do a firmware update to 17 for example). I was thinking of trying to manually charge the LiFePO4, but have no idea what to use to do so. I have several hobby LiPo chargers, but sounds like it may be a different beast. That would help narrow down the problem between the battery and it's charging system (or some parasitic drain, like a bad cellular module).
Steve
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My 12v battery is also not holding voltage (can't do a firmware update to 17 for example). I was thinking of trying to manually charge the LiFePO4, but have no idea what to use to do so. I have several hobby LiPo chargers, but sounds like it may be a different beast. That would help narrow down the problem between the battery and it's charging system (or some parasitic drain, like a bad cellular module).
Steve
The manual mentions auxillary LiPo chargers (with a disconnected battery).
However, take heed of your warranty.
While I would have been perfectly able to change the defunct battery myself (and the procedure is documented in the manual, hence the battery could be considered a CRU), the dealership explicitly requested to bring the bike in , for reasons of warranty (the bike is 3 months old, 800 km).
After a battery replacement, my issue is not resolved.
Furthermore, I'd guess the MBB would take care of parasitic drains, and keep the 12V battery sufficiently charged. Failing to do so may be a sign of issues not at the battery, but perhaps further up the chain ?
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It's not legal in the US for a warranty to be voided by repairing a component.
-Crissa
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It's not legal in the US for a warranty to be voided by repairing a component.
-Crissa
True, but all warranty work must be done at dealers. IOW, they will not give you a part that failed while under warranty without them replacing it themselves. The vehicle has to be at the dealer to get the part under warranty.
My front ABS sensor crapped out on my SR while it was in warranty. I decided I will buy the part on line and install it myself, just because it is less hassle than bringing the bike to a dealer.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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The FTC doesn't say, but I don't believe they can make that requirement, either.
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0138-auto-warranties-routine-maintenance
Apple and Tesla have been getting in trouble for this, but enforcement has been weak.
They have to prove your repair did the damage, so generally charging or replacing the accessory battery should be something you can do and they cannot say voids the warranty. Those old stickers 'warranty void if opened' are no longer valid, basically.
-Crissa
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I think both Crissa and DomTom are right.
DomTom is correct in saying that a manufacturer can require warranty work be done at authorized dealers. For example, they are not required to ship a replacement charger under warranty to you individually or to pay you to replace it.
I imageine they make the argument that only trained techs have the tools and skills to properly diagnose and repair issues,
Crissa is right in that the warranty is still good unless they prove repair outside their dealer caused a problem . However, if they do so obviously they won't pay to get it fixed,
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Whilst we are on this subject, i have a quick question regarding this line in the manual "During regular operation and when connected to a charging cable.".
Given I'm currently working from home for the foreseeable future and seeing as the zero's 12v is always maintaining the Cellular connection, if it ONLY charges the 12v riding around (not doing that for the foreseeable future), or when it's charging (again, sitting in garage at 80% is gonna take a while to drain to a point i need to charge it up), Does that mean that the 12v will slowly go flat?
If that's the case, is it worth plugging in the zero to "charge" even though it'll not need to and leave it plugged in over night so the BMS can charge the 12v every now and then without charging the main pack. This then seems to defeat the "hibernation" thing after a month of inactivity. I'm confused as to how to maintain it, during our currently lock down.
Anyone got any knowledge on the maintence of the 12v so it's not heading to the dealer the minute i need to use it again.
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Apparently the DC to DC converter is turned on periodically to maintain the charge of the 12v battery. Also if it's a typical motorcycle battery then I would imagine that the cellular components would use so little power that it's not going to drain it at a significant rate.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/FST_Platform/12V_Battery
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Cheers,
I'll try not to get paranoid about it's long term storage prospects then.
;)
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I know someone had posted the replacement model number for the 12v batter on the SR/F, but I can't seem to find it. I'd like to replace mine to give it a shot before going to the dealer. Anyone got the info?
Thanks!
Steve
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item 79 on pages 30 and 33 called with caption ZEV0074 Electrical : 79 46-08245 12V System Battery with heater 1
https://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=3362&description=2020+Zero+SR%2FF+Spare+Parts+Catalog (https://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=3362&description=2020+Zero+SR%2FF+Spare+Parts+Catalog)
Unfortunately no info on AF1 regarding the price
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While I would have been perfectly able to change the defunct battery myself (and the procedure is documented in the manual, hence the battery could be considered a CRU), the dealership explicitly requested to bring the bike in , for reasons of warranty (the bike is 3 months old, 800 km).
After a battery replacement, my issue is not resolved.
After an outage of 3 months (2.5 months at dealer / Zero EU), I have my bike back.
(recap : SR/F 12V battery died in the course of one night)
At the dealership, the battery was replaced twice (each dying again within the day), after which the BMS assembly was sent to Zero EU and replaced, also to no avail.
Finally, the bike was shipped to Zero Netherlands, where it received a software update (both MBB and dashboard computer).
Dashboard FW version was upgraded from 5V02 to 6V26.
According to Zero Netherlands, the problem could not be fixed at the dealership (no further details).
How a software upgrade can fix this kind of issue, why that upgrade cannot be executed (eventually remotely by Zero EU) at the dealership, and why not more bikes experience this issue (it's not as if there are lots and lots of hardware/software combo's in the SR/F range), escapes me somewhat.
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While I would have been perfectly able to change the defunct battery myself (and the procedure is documented in the manual, hence the battery could be considered a CRU), the dealership explicitly requested to bring the bike in , for reasons of warranty (the bike is 3 months old, 800 km).
After a battery replacement, my issue is not resolved.
After an outage of 3 months (2.5 months at dealer / Zero EU), I have my bike back.
(recap : SR/F 12V battery died in the course of one night)
At the dealership, the battery was replaced twice (each dying again within the day), after which the BMS assembly was sent to Zero EU and replaced, also to no avail.
Finally, the bike was shipped to Zero Netherlands, where it received a software update (both MBB and dashboard computer).
Dashboard FW version was upgraded from 5V02 to 6V26.
According to Zero Netherlands, the problem could not be fixed at the dealership (no further details).
How a software upgrade can fix this kind of issue, why that upgrade cannot be executed (eventually remotely by Zero EU) at the dealership, and why not more bikes experience this issue (it's not as if there are lots and lots of hardware/software combo's in the SR/F range), escapes me somewhat.
That means the MBB was probably triggering some parasitic loads that would drain the battery while resting.
I don't like how Zero handled any of this, from the design level that made the MBB critical to battery protection at rest, to the way it was serviced, to the fact that the dealer lacked the ability to go through exercises that Zero privileges for itself.
This increases my wariness about the new platform, which is growing due to other technical issues and issues where Zero has decided to privilege its own knowledge and abilities over dealers and owners. I would like to see something better.
If this is the future of motorcycling, motorcycling will die.
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Exactly my opinion, Brian.
I specifically discarded Energica due to (next to the pricing proposition) the very limited number of dealerships (none in Belgium, at the time), and went again for Zero.
My current experience invalidates that train of thought.
The Zero utensils aren't free for the dealerships, neither (and I always had the impression Zero TS could do a lot remotely).
Of course, my 'evaluation' is based on the provided information (which is, notwithstanding my request : practically none).
Fortunately, :
- I wasn't harassed because of all the accessories I had/have installed at the 12V connectors (Gerbing, camera, GPS+LiPo, horn, ...) ;
- I experienced a friendly and professional dealership ;
- And : the bike is still absolutely tremendous.
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While I would have been perfectly able to change the defunct battery myself (and the procedure is documented in the manual, hence the battery could be considered a CRU), the dealership explicitly requested to bring the bike in , for reasons of warranty (the bike is 3 months old, 800 km).
After a battery replacement, my issue is not resolved.
After an outage of 3 months (2.5 months at dealer / Zero EU), I have my bike back.
(recap : SR/F 12V battery died in the course of one night)
At the dealership, the battery was replaced twice (each dying again within the day), after which the BMS assembly was sent to Zero EU and replaced, also to no avail.
Finally, the bike was shipped to Zero Netherlands, where it received a software update (both MBB and dashboard computer).
Dashboard FW version was upgraded from 5V02 to 6V26.
According to Zero Netherlands, the problem could not be fixed at the dealership (no further details).
How a software upgrade can fix this kind of issue, why that upgrade cannot be executed (eventually remotely by Zero EU) at the dealership, and why not more bikes experience this issue (it's not as if there are lots and lots of hardware/software combo's in the SR/F range), escapes me somewhat.
That means the MBB was probably triggering some parasitic loads that would drain the battery while resting.
I don't like how Zero handled any of this, from the design level that made the MBB critical to battery protection at rest, to the way it was serviced, to the fact that the dealer lacked the ability to go through exercises that Zero privileges for itself.
This increases my wariness about the new platform, which is growing due to other technical issues and issues where Zero has decided to privilege its own knowledge and abilities over dealers and owners. I would like to see something better.
If this is the future of motorcycling, motorcycling will die.
I;m not so sure this can't be done at dealers, this sounds more like Zero Netherlands was trying to investigate the cause. Weird issues affecting a limited population intermittently sounds very hard to diagnose at a motorcycle dealer. Especially if the issue was internal to the MBB or related to the software of one/multiple ECUs and their interaction. If it can't be reproduced on a test bike by Zero itself, this sounds like Zero going through extra effort.
Sucks they didn't give you a loner though while they tried to fix this.
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FWIW I don't have any evidence that Energica is better in this regard even with a dealer, other than that they're more aggressive in covering warranty issues, and generally the range of EV manufacturer-owner interactions is much like this. Everyone who has knowledge about their systems seems to be privileged by the manufacturer.
The Zero FST platform is largely good. The manufacturer needs to act qualitatively differently to make these bikes easier to keep on the road, though.
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The problem with the 12 volt battery is common to all manufacturers. The batteries are underchallenged because they are always full. Software-wise it would be no problem to discharge the battery.
But the battery is necessary to meet the new safety standards because the HV-System is completely decoupled from the body and therefore extremely safe.
My battery of the C is over 4 years old and is still fit. But I also service it every 14 days with an RC charger. It is an automatic program that discharges and recharges the battery.
But financially it does not pay off because such a battery costs only 20€.
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Zero describes a process of cycling the battery, but they are still a fallible part with moving chemicals.
-Crissa
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Zero describes a process of cycling the battery, but they are still a fallible part with moving chemicals.
Two replacement batteries failing in the same way ?
Looks to me the problem is to be found elsewhere, not with the batteries.
Notwithstanding, do you by any chance have a reference to Zero's cycling procedure ? Thanks.
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Zero describes a process of cycling the battery, but they are still a fallible part with moving chemicals.
Two replacement batteries failing in the same way ?
Looks to me the problem is to be found elsewhere, not with the batteries.
I would agree. Given that the board wasn't responding to update requests, it sounds like the software was corrupted.
My reference is comments made in regard to the battery in the manual and for keeping it in long-term storage. They say it turns on and off and requires the battery to be connected.
-Crissa
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Zero could have at least installed a battery with BMS. With any problem, the original is scrap if it is below 10 volts.
Also a readiness to drive in case of problems would be 100% possible.
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Zero could have at least installed a battery with BMS. With any problem, the original is scrap if it is below 10 volts.
If I understood well, the 12V battery is managed by the bike's main BMS (which isn't supposed to fail, I guess :( ).
Adding a second BMS at the 12V level was probably considered an avoidable cost and superfluous (unless you'd like to report its big brother's failure via cellular, but what are the chances ? ::) ).
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I'm not sure it's allowed for a manufacturer to put a low voltage cutoff on the brake management, without the brakes defaulting to 'locked', either. That's supposed to work down to the last drop.
The idea being that it exists when our main battery fails. Which if the main battery fails, well, the 12v is more likely to fail, so the logic kinda escapes me but whatever ^-^
-Crissa
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Don't think so complicated.
Shido offers its batteries with integrated BMS. Or even simpler, like BMW, where the 12 Volt battery only operates( DWA/Clock,Instruments) the ignition. No problem with the quiescent current and the 12 Volt power plug can be bridged.
I guess the battery used by Zero has about 2.0 Ah if at all. Even with the LED lighting an emergency lighting is not possible for long. :o
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I know someone had posted the replacement model number for the 12v batter on the SR/F, but I can't seem to find it. I'd like to replace mine to give it a shot before going to the dealer. Anyone got the info?
Thanks!
Steve
Quick update. I have not had a chance to get back to the dealer or get a replacement myself yet. I figured why not just leave it alone for a couple of months of riding after storage, and it seems that the battery recovered enough after lots of ride and recharge cycles to allow me to upgrade my firmware to 17 without issue (I was able to do so this morning with no under-voltage errors). I'll keep an eye on it, but I'm good for now.
I wonder if the 12v batteries are just not being kept charged enough while in storage?
Steve
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That's a good thought, Steve. Since the radios (for remote communication) also use the 12v battery, and radio usage could vary alot based upon storage location (the worse or inconsistent the cell network, the more times the radio transmits at a higher power to say 'hey') and this could easily multiple the battery usage beyond what estimate the software was designed around.
There are just alot of points at which the bike could use more power from the little battery between sleep cycles. And sometimes batteries just suck. This is why I have an isolated low-voltage cutoff on my car's battery, though that might be a bit bulky on a bike.
-Crissa
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The bike was in my basement with zero cell service all winter long. I topped off the main battery a couple of times since the main battery drain was more than I would have expected (2-3% every couple of weeks). Anyway, while it probably was not great for the Lithium battery, It's working fine now...
Steve
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The bike was in my basement with zero cell service all winter long. I topped off the main battery a couple of times since the main battery drain was more than I would have expected (2-3% every couple of weeks). Anyway, while it probably was not great for the Lithium battery, It's working fine now...
Steve
The ZeroNG app shows 12V battery voltage which might help me spot another developing problem. They really should charge for it. It's not useful with zero cell service, though. I also bought a 12V charger with a lithium setting, though a standard charger works with close monitoring. With my 12V battery recharged and since I added holes to keep the battery cover from collecting water, my bike has been normal since the March rainstorms.
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But how does the bike know it doesn't have cell service?
It doesn't.
So it keeps trying full power yells to the network and doesn't get any answers, so never turns down the radio power after the handshake.
-Crissa
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On Christmas day, there it was in my garage: a shiny new 2021 SR/S with a bow on it. Wow! Maybe someday, I'll get to ride it.
When I turned it on, the bike displayed Error Codes 27, 31, 33, and 43, along with a message about the 12V battery heater running and the voltage of the 12V battery being low. It seems the dealer delivered the bike with the main drive battery charged to 97%, which perhaps isn't ideal for storage but should be able to keep the 12V battery charged for some time. Let's face it, here in the Northeast with below-freezing temperatures and plenty of snow and ice, I probably won't ride much for a few months.
I tried to register the bike using the Zero app but kept getting an error message saying the unit was unrecognized. (I guess the dealer forgot to tell Zero they sold it.) I was, however, able to connect via Bluetooth and upgrade to the latest firmware. Being concerned about some of the error messages, especially the one about the low voltage on the 12V battery, I left the bike sitting with the key in the ON position for about half an hour, then plugged it into a charging station for a few hours before using the Zero app to enable Storage Mode.
The manual gives conflicting advice as to whether the bike should be left plugged in while being stored. So, I left it unplugged but checked back a week later. Whoops -- totally dead! Um, OK, how do I exit Storage Mode again? Turn the key ON then OFF then ON again, while raising the kickstand and cycling the kill switch? Nope, nothing worked. Eventually, I figured it was time to check the 12V battery and followed the instructions in the manual on removing it from under the seat.
When I first removed it, the voltage was 2.7V. After an hour, it was up to 3.5V, and after a day, 6.5V -- all without any charging, just sitting in my basement. Huh. A note written with a marker on the 12V battery says it was new in September 2021, so this isn't the first time this brand new bike (built about a year ago but just sitting in a showroom) had such an issue. I offered to bring the dead battery to the dealer, or let them use my garage to recharge or replace the battery, but they say Zero will only honor the warranty after bringing the whole bike to the dealer for service.
My situation sounds disturbingly similar to the one discussed earlier in this thread. Maybe engaging Storage Mode was a mistake, or maybe it would have happened anyway. I guess Zero has a problem with their firmware and their BMS where it just drains the 12V battery dead. Only, neither I nor the dealer can update that particular firmware? Moreover, Zero doesn't trust its customers or its dealers enough to honor a warranty claim without seeing pictures of the bike at the dealer being disassembled?
Oh, well. Maybe Santa should have brought a LiveWire. At least if my new SR/S spends 2.5 months at the dealer like the OP, it's a good time of year -- winter.
- M
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I haven't been able to find the 12V battery voltage in the app... where is it?
Also, I suspect there must be an issue with the BMS or MBB logic that recharges the 12V and main battery. I've noticed if I have scheduled charging turned on and leave the bike plugged into the charger, the BMS will charge as scheduled at the next charging window but will then let the main battery (and 12V) sit to slowly discharge thereafter. The bike will not wake up to charge at the following charging windows (once a day). After a couple weeks the main battery will loose ~10% charge and the 12V will be low. Seems the solution is to key on and off once a week, OR unplug and replug the charger, OR disable scheduled charging.
In all our cases, seems like the MMB or BMS firmware for main and 12v battery charging needs some attention.
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So... I suspect my 12V battery is now below a normal operating voltage (key on and the bike is dead).
It's garaged, always plugged in (not in storage mode), and ridden at least once a week. I don't see how under those circumstances the 12v lithium battery should EVER be low. The MBB and/or BMS should periodically wake and keep the 12V in good charge state.
I also doubt its the cold temps.. last winter the bike was also garaged, always plugged-in, and ridden weekly without issue. Points to a firmware issue I think.
Very frustrating on a commuter bike... who has time to deal with big firmware issues like this? Even if I get the 12v battery replaced the next one will discharge again!
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Speaking of 12V batteries, I notice that the new BMW CE 04 electric scooter also uses a "secondary" 12V 5Ah battery. It does appear to be a trend.
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I haven't been able to find the 12V battery voltage in the app... where is it?
You can view it in the third party zeroNG app:
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So... I suspect my 12V battery is now below a normal operating voltage (key on and the bike is dead).
It's garaged, always plugged in (not in storage mode), and ridden at least once a week. I don't see how under those circumstances the 12v lithium battery should EVER be low. The MBB and/or BMS should periodically wake and keep the 12V in good charge state.
I also doubt its the cold temps.. last winter the bike was also garaged, always plugged-in, and ridden weekly without issue. Points to a firmware issue I think.
Very frustrating on a commuter bike... who has time to deal with big firmware issues like this? Even if I get the 12v battery replaced the next one will discharge again!
I've been having similar troubles. I left my 2020 SR/F plugged in while I was away for a little under 1.5 months. I returned to a totally dead bike. Turning on the key did nothing.
I've encountered 12V issues with this bike before, so I knew where to find the 12V battery and check its voltage. It was dead, at a bit over 2 volts. I connected a Li-Ion charger, and brought it back to a full charge. Keyed on the bike, and it all came back to life. My only concern is that the 12V battery has been substantially degraded by sitting dead for a month or so.
I got a few 12V faults (code 27, I think?), and even a CEL since then. We'll see where this goes. The bike is only under warranty for another week or two.
- Fred
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It's good to know I'm not alone in facing multiple error codes, difficulty with firmware upgrades and Bluetooth pairing, and especially the dead 12V battery issue.
I thought about charging the battery myself with a LifePO4 charger but rejected the idea for three reasons: I was concerned that the battery might have been permanently damaged by being so deeply discharged, I wanted to preserve warranty coverage, and I wanted to make sure Zero was aware of the serious firmware problem to increase the chances they will correct it. From this forum, it's clear Zero owners are well aware of the problems. Does the manufacturer realize how widespread these firmware and battery issues are?
- M
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So... I suspect my 12V battery is now below a normal operating voltage (key on and the bike is dead).
It's garaged, always plugged in (not in storage mode), and ridden at least once a week. I don't see how under those circumstances the 12v lithium battery should EVER be low. The MBB and/or BMS should periodically wake and keep the 12V in good charge state.
I also doubt its the cold temps.. last winter the bike was also garaged, always plugged-in, and ridden weekly without issue. Points to a firmware issue I think.
Very frustrating on a commuter bike... who has time to deal with big firmware issues like this? Even if I get the 12v battery replaced the next one will discharge again!
Sorry if this is a "Captain Obvious" post, but did you try measuring current across each of the fuses in the panel to see if you could narrow down the source of a parasitic draw?...
If you did find some current flowing through one of those fuses that shouldn't be in a keyed off bike, a solution would be to pull that fuse and see if that fixes the issue, periodically checking the 12V battery (any fuse should do, I would imagine) to see if it's on still on a trajectory into the dead zone in in just a few days' time...
(Comparing keyed on vs. off amps through each fuse might yield some good info. https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Fuse_Block )
-S
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12V AGM batteries (in general) have left a bad taste in my mouth lately. During the past year I have bought two small 6 Ah 12V batteries for my KTM Duke and both have gone bad within just a few months. The one that came with the bike was made in India and the second one was made in China. Both failed to hold a charge more than a couple of days after being fully charged on a reliable battery maintainer. It is my belief that because they were sitting on a shelf (or on a boat) for many months before being placed into service without having been kept charged, it has affected their ability to hold a charge. Recently, I bought another Chinese-made AGM battery for the KTM for only $30 from Amazon and that battery came fully charged to 13.1 volts. It has been working perfectly for the past 6 months.
Perhaps Zero has managed to buy some cheap, poorly manufactured and stored batteries for their latest model bikes that use them to replace the likely more expensive DC-DC converter? ???
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The 12V batteries on the SRF and SRS and the new SR are lithium (not traditional AGM etc).
As for parasitic drain…there are no accessories on the bike and I wasn’t about to troubleshoot drain when it was going to have to trailer to the dealer anyway.
Dealer replaced battery and states everything else is ok. Apparently some of these 12v batteries haven’t been lasting.
Still seems like a firmware issue to me as even newer bikes are all of a sudden struggling with this issue on the forum.
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The 12V batteries on the SRF and SRS and the new SR are lithium (not traditional AGM etc).
As for parasitic drain…there are no accessories on the bike and I wasn’t about to troubleshoot drain when it was going to have to trailer to the dealer anyway.
Dealer replaced battery and states everything else is ok. Apparently some of these 12v batteries haven’t been lasting.
Still seems like a firmware issue to me as even newer bikes are all of a sudden struggling with this issue on the forum.
That is odd. I have several 12V lithium motorcycle batteries in my ICE bikes and have never had a problem keeping them charged and healthy. I wonder what is going on?
(I have been switching from AGM batteries to name-brand and somewhat expensive lithium as my lead-acid batteries crap out. I am now down to one AGM in my KTM Duke. If that goes south, I will replace it with a lithium. The small lithium battery in my Royal Enfield has been going strong for the past 10 years. :) )
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12V AGM batteries (in general) have left a bad taste in my mouth lately. During the past year I have bought two small 6 Ah 12V batteries for my KTM Duke and both have gone bad within just a few months. The one that came with the bike was made in India and the second one was made in China. Both failed to hold a charge more than a couple of days after being fully charged on a reliable battery maintainer. It is my belief that because they were sitting on a shelf (or on a boat) for many months before being placed into service without having been kept charged, it has affected their ability to hold a charge. Recently, I bought another Chinese-made AGM battery for the KTM for only $30 from Amazon and that battery came fully charged to 13.1 volts. It has been working perfectly for the past 6 months.
Perhaps Zero has managed to buy some cheap, poorly manufactured and stored batteries for their latest model bikes that use them to replace the likely more expensive DC-DC converter? ???
See this chart. (https://www.ukcampsite.co.uk/articles/images/722_6.jpg)
Do not let a 12v AGM or lead acid battery get below 50% charged (12.0 volts) for any reason. Only measure the battery's voltage after more than 30 minutes of it doing nothing at all. Not being charged, not being used. Disconnected from everything for 30 minutes or more. That is when the check its voltage.
It will recover if it's below 12V, if only done a few times, but it is very damaging to the battery. Never ask for more than 3 AH from a 6AH LA or AGM battery or it does damage faster. Each time it's done, you will have less AH left for the next time. You can get the full 6AH from a 6AH battery, but the next time you will only get around 5.8 AH, then 5.6 AM etc.
The nice thing about lith batteries is you can take them below 90% discharged and do no damage and still have near the same voltage as a fully charged LA or AGM.
-Don- OPCNM, AZ
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Here are the pictures from my dissected 12 V battery.
The white sticker on pic 1 is the only in the pack but each battery has one of the light green one seen in pic 2, with the same number at the top and a different one at the bottom (serial number).
This is a bare-bones battery: Nothing to balance the cells, protect them in case of overheating or monitor them, as far as I can tell.
I have not opened the cells themselves but doubt the electronics for the above would be inside the plastic pouch, but I could be wrong.
I am not a lithium battery guru but I feel Zero should have a battery with more advanced features, if nothing else, to make it last a bit longer and make them more reliable. After all, when the charge drops below the threshold, the bike is out of commission.
The fact that so many people have had this battery fail is proof that something was not engineered right: Maybe is the logic programed in the bike's firmware that is not maintaining them optimally but I, like many others, have nothing extra hooked up to the bike that could potentially cause early failures.
The shell is quite sturdy; good quality plastic 1/8 of an inch thick and the posts appear to be brass and are pretty heavy duty fora battery this size.
The wires are 10 AWG and the soldering was done very well. (Hard to tell by looking at pics 3 and 4 but I can tell you this is some of the best soldering I have seen for a while)
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This is a bare-bones battery
The fact that so many people have had this battery fail is proof that something was not engineered right
The lack of a BMS, will explain why they're failing so often.
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This is a bare-bones battery
The fact that so many people have had this battery fail is proof that something was not engineered right
The lack of a BMS, will explain why they're failing so often.
Indeed it does!
I opened one cell just now to see if there was anything inside (a long shot but possible) to provide thermal protection or anything of the sort, but there isn't.
This battery is as basic as it gets, folks: 4 cells soldered together and sealed in a case, not a doggone thing else (other than the heater stuck to the outside) :(
Shame on Zero!
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Er, why do you think there's no battery management going on? Of course there is! It's on the MBB or somewhere else.
Cas :)
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Er, why do you think there's no battery management going on? Of course there is! It's on the MBB or somewhere else.
Cas :)
Nope, the management is at the cell level, so, you need wires from each of the 4 cells to go to the management system, and there are none.
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This is such a PITA... my bike has been sitting in the garage since it got cold. Yesterday I checked the SoC and it was down to 37%. Since it was slightly above freezing the bike should've been able to charge but nothing happened. Oh wait, something did happen: I got an army of error messages, some of them telling me that the 12 V battery is low. Well that's helpful information, but why doesn't the bike charge it if it's low?
Anyway, so I took the 12 V battery inside and charged it for a while. AFAIK there is no information in the manual or on the battery itself what the max charge current should be or what the capacity is so I can figure out an appropriate charge current myself. Great job, Zero...
After I reconnected the 12 V battery, everything seemed normal except the main battery still wouldn't charge. I mean it sounds easy enough to do what the manual says, like "recharge to 60% when it's down to 30%" but alas, it is impossible while it's below 0 °C.
I don't have a heated garage so I had to take a calculated risk: I applied both brakes and opened throttle to a level that made me feel slightly uncomfortable. The idea was to run some current through the battery, hoping it would generate enough heat to allow for charging. Obviously that came with the risk of me draining the battery to 30% or less and still being unable to charge it. Luckily it all worked out. Charging started at 2.7 kW and eventually went up to the full 6 kW the bike can draw.
After I charged the battery to 90% I tried to apply the latest firmware update but ran into problems again. That's a whole different story though and I'm just going to read the many posts that deal with this situation instead of ranting about it here.
I love riding the bike but I'm getting pretty fed up with Zero as a company as well as my nearest dealership.
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AFAIK there is no information in the manual or on the battery itself what the max charge current should be or what the capacity is so I can figure out an appropriate charge current myself. Great job, Zero...
Just put it on a one-amp battery maintaine (https://www.amazon.com/STANLEY-BM1S-Battery-Maintainer-Trickle/dp/B06XXG4YT2/ref=sr_1_28?crid=2YP7JXK1WRTEU&keywords=1+amp+lithium+battery+maintainer&qid=1644634807&s=automotive&sprefix=1+amp+lithium+battery+maintainer%2Cautomotive%2C387&sr=1-28)r. The lower the charge current the better.
-Don- Reno, NV
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AFAIK there is no information in the manual or on the battery itself what the max charge current should be or what the capacity is so I can figure out an appropriate charge current myself. Great job, Zero...
Just put it on a one-amp battery maintaine (https://www.amazon.com/STANLEY-BM1S-Battery-Maintainer-Trickle/dp/B06XXG4YT2/ref=sr_1_28?crid=2YP7JXK1WRTEU&keywords=1+amp+lithium+battery+maintainer&qid=1644634807&s=automotive&sprefix=1+amp+lithium+battery+maintainer%2Cautomotive%2C387&sr=1-28)r. The lower the charge current the better.
Thanks Don, I might actually try something similar next winter season. I'll just take the 12 V battery and store it inside. That way I can monitor the voltage and recharge as necessary. As you mentioned, the charge current can be low, it won't matter. Yesterday it did matter though. The battery was already lower than it should be and I didn't want to spend days to recharge it since I also had to recharge the main battery while the temperature was above freezing.
I'm curious to see what will happen next winter. I'm planning on connecting the 12 V battery after about two months of inactivity to see how the main battery is doing. It should only discharge at an irrelevant rate with nothing connected to it. We'll see. Anything is better than having a bike stored in the cold with an almost empty battery and no way to charge it. I'll post the results here in about 12 months :P
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What I would like to do is find a battery of the same technology (LifePO4) and same dimensions, with a BMS and replace the piece of junk.
As for the maintainer, when I get my bike back from the dealer, I plan to use a 24 hour timer and set it up to charge daily for an hour, maybe two, though, if I remember correctly, Zero recommends not doing that as it could interfere with the bike's electronics.
Maybe I will build an automatic switch, with a relay, that will disconnect the battery from the bike when being charged and restore the connection when the charger goes off.
Need to think about this and see if there is room for such a thing. Space is so tight on motorcycles.
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Pretty sure this is the Zero battery, obviously without branding.
https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/small-case/ag-401/
As ya'll have said, it does not have a BMS
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I'll just take the 12 V battery and store it inside. That way I can monitor the voltage and recharge as necessary.
The battery maintainers take care of that for you. They switch off and on as necessary, automatically. So leave it on whenever the battery is not being used for more than a day or so. I have many vehicles. ALL of them that have a 12V battery are on a maintainer right now. You can keep them connected and on for years. The date of the battery on my pickup truck is year 2014, 8 years old and is still much like new as it is always on the maintainer when parked.
All L-A or AGM 12 volt batteries are best left on the maintainer at all times. But a lith battery will require a different type. (https://www.amazon.com/MOTOPOWER-MP00207A-Automatic-Maintainer-Batteries/dp/B01DYE5H9C/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?keywords=12v+lithium+ion+battery+charger&qid=1644688395&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFCMkYzTTFOV0lQUDkmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAzNDQyMTgzUDc1M1BVOUpVQllYJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA0ODQ3MDYzQTMyTTI5VVhMS1hMJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==) But some of these can work with any type of 12V battery. But with lith batteries, make sure the maintainer says it works with such.
-Don- Reno, NV
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if I remember correctly, Zero recommends not doing that as it could interfere with the bike's electronics.
Very unlikely. They are concerned about there being too much ripple in the charger. Just don't buy the cheapest one money can buy and all should be fine. The old cheap ones from HFT put out a lot of garbage. I would stay away from those, but even those are unlikely to cause a problem. The battery itself makes a good filter for the ripple.
Besides, I don't think HFT now even sells the old cheap ones I am referring to. I think they broke part 15 of the FCC rules and no longer may sell them.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I do have a charger mainly for LiPo batteries (I use it for my RC helicopter) and this charger can also charge LiFe and other types of batteries. I'd rather not have it plugged in at all times but I also don't think it will be necessary. I store my LiPo batteries at 60% SoC and they don't lose a lot of charge during the winter.
The problem as I see it is that the bike doesn't power down completely. There is always a little power draw that might look insignificant, but over the course of a couple months it's still enough to cause problems (during a Canadian winter anyway). I'm pretty sure that if I just disconnect the 12 V battery when I store the bike for the winter I won't have any problems at all. The only restriction I can think of is that I won't be able to check the SoC. That shouldn't be a problem though as the battery will only self-discharge at a very low rate instead of keeping components up that don't need to be up during the winter.
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if I remember correctly, Zero recommends not doing that as it could interfere with the bike's electronics.
Very unlikely. They are concerned about there being too much ripple in the charger. Just don't buy the cheapest one money can buy and all should be fine. The old cheap ones from HFT put out a lot of garbage. I would stay away from those, but even those are unlikely to cause a problem. The battery itself makes a good filter for the ripple.
Besides, I don't think HFT now even sells the old cheap ones I am referring to. I think they broke part 15 of the FCC rules and no longer may sell them.
-Don- Reno, NV
I bet Don, you are correct and the crappy chargers out there caused problems with something on the bike and Zero issued a blanket statement warning not to use them.
I will buy a high quality one and have it ready for next winter. By the time the dealer returns my bike fixed (with the BMS problem) it won't be winter any longer in southern North Carolina.
I had sent an email to the Antigravity folks asking if the AG-401, (the battery they make comparable to what Zero is putting on the SR/F) had a BMS and the response was NO.
They said the smallest battery they make with a BMS is the https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/restart-oem/atz7-rs/ (https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/restart-oem/atz7-rs/)
It is the same LifeP04 technology but it is quite a bit bigger: Just a bit over an inch thicker but it certainly won't fit in the little shelf Zero created for that purpose, at least not in my model-year.
Not sure I want to be monkeying around in the area where this battery is located, enlarging the drawer where it goes so, I will consider the charger as discussed earlier.
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Did they say anything about passive cell balancing via built-in resistors in the AG-401 battery? I find it hard to believe that anyone would just group four cells without any cell balancing. That's just asking for trouble.
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Did they say anything about passive cell balancing via built-in resistors in the AG-401 battery? I find it hard to believe that anyone would just group four cells without any cell balancing. That's just asking for trouble.
It does not appear it has any kind of cell balancing, as they would have added that to the response.
Here is the one-liner answer to my question:
"The small-case AG-401 does not come with a built-in BMS, so you would want to avoid draining it below 10 V. The smallest battery with a BMS is the ATZ7-RS."
It looks like size (and maybe weight) was the only important parameter when they designed that model.
What kills me is that Zero could & should have gone for the one with the BMS. There is room to design the battery holder about 1 inch larger, at least the '20 SR/F.
Not sure how much is the price difference but like you said, just soldering four cells together is asking for trouble, potentially after just a few months and very likely after a year or so.
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In case anyone is curious about what happened next...
Sure enough, my brand new SR/S spent over 2 months in the shop before I ever got to ride it. They replaced the 12V battery under warranty, and the Zero factory rep stopped in to the dealer to make sure all the firmware was current and the bike was functioning properly. They reportedly "wiped its brain" so completely that I had to bring in the yellow-headed key for them to reprogram the security settings so the computer would recognize the keys.
The dealer was kind enough to deliver the repaired bike to my home, but when I went to ride it the next day, it came up with error messages and refused to run: Error Code 25, 27, 28, 31, and 43. I shook my head, turned off the key, and tried again a few hours later. That time, the bike turned on enough that I could use the menu to individually clear each error code. The Check Engine Light was still on, but I was able to ride the bike a few miles. The next time I turned it on, the error codes were gone, and the CEL was off. The dealer thinks maybe all the errors were in "pending" status and showed up reflecting the problems from before the battery was replaced.
Did I get a lemon? It doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling, seeing all those errors and getting the impression that neither the technician at the dealer nor the Zero factory rep really understand how the bike works. But wow, oh wow, when it works, this thing is a total blast to ride!
- M
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Personally I don't get concerned over error codes that don't come back. I've had a handful in my less than 6 months with my bike so far, more after a few months in storage mode. As long as they don't come back, probably a non-issue.
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Just thought I would share my experience with the 12V in my SRS. Any time the temp gets below 32F the bike kicks on the 12v battery heater and as has been mentioned many times already has no BMS so it will drain the 12v clear to 0v or at least mine does. I had it go dead overnight a couple of weeks ago. I managed to save it with a LiPo charger at .5 amps (Somehow it went from 0v to "full" according to the LiPo charger in 45 minutes and I charged it in my LiPo charging box in case it exploded) then a dedicated lithium maintainer to top it off but it is still super annoying that the bike has no way to keep the 12v battery charged while the key is off. The main battery would have had more than enough power to keep the 12v charged for the 6 hours it was below freezing.
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The 12V batteries on the SRF and SRS and the new SR are lithium (not traditional AGM etc).
As for parasitic drain…there are no accessories on the bike and I wasn’t about to troubleshoot drain when it was going to have to trailer to the dealer anyway.
Dealer replaced battery and states everything else is ok. Apparently some of these 12v batteries haven’t been lasting.
Still seems like a firmware issue to me as even newer bikes are all of a sudden struggling with this issue on the forum.
So….it’s been almost a year since my 12v battery was replaced and today the 12v battery was dead again.
We had a very cold week recently…perhaps the battery heater is at issue.
As I commute on the SR/F I’m thinking of investing in both of these… thoughts?
https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/accessories/battery/chargers/optimate-tm-291/
https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/accessories/battery/chargers/bluetooth-tracker-lithium/
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Sorry if this has been asked already but I couldn't find any reference to it. Is the ZeNGo app good enough for keeping an eye on the 12V battery?
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I use zeroNG to monitor my 12v battery.
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Sorry if this has been asked already but I couldn't find any reference to it. Is the ZeNGo app good enough for keeping an eye on the 12V battery?
The five amp charger seems too high for a motorcycle battery. I would use one of these. (https://www.amazon.com/MOTOPOWER-MP00207A-Automatic-Maintainer-Batteries/dp/B01DYE5H9C/ref=sxin_16_pa_sp_search_thematic_sspa?content-id=amzn1.sym.d5d2dbeb-b217-4d41-ad6b-bc4af55d7521%3Aamzn1.sym.d5d2dbeb-b217-4d41-ad6b-bc4af55d7521&crid=2PU581UI9O855&cv_ct_cx=lithium+battery+maintainer&keywords=lithium+battery+maintainer&pd_rd_i=B01DYE5H9C&pd_rd_r=c2286b3c-d496-461a-93fc-47a2f6833e05&pd_rd_w=ugqLN&pd_rd_wg=Nfq83&pf_rd_p=d5d2dbeb-b217-4d41-ad6b-bc4af55d7521&pf_rd_r=5RC7A1DEH2S6J6H5SA3G&qid=1672867913&sprefix=lith+battery+mainatainer%2Caps%2C201&sr=1-3-a73d1c8c-2fd2-4f19-aa41-2df022bcb241-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFTQ0xTMjBWRldUVksmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA0ODM0ODgyT1E3M1NCQUxaQk41JmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA0ODQ3MDYzQTMyTTI5VVhMS1hMJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3Bfc2VhcmNoX3RoZW1hdGljJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==)
I expect the thingy to monitor the battery will work very well. But I never used that one, I use something like that for my 12volt house battery in my RVs that work very well.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I use zeroNG to monitor my 12v battery.
We may be talking about the same app. I think it got renamed due to Zero giving the developer grief. This is the link to the one I use for android:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=be.hcpl.android.zengo
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I'd be wary of using a charger unless we're talking about removing the 12V battery from the bike. I daily use the ZeroNG app, which @SandyGnomes notes is now called ZeNGo, to monitor the 12V and main batteries, especially during cold weather. It's important to regularly check the readings, and the "Actual date" of the data, so you catch if the cellular connection if broken and the data has gone stale. You want to see that the charge levels regularly change. My bike now sits outside for a month or two between rides so I use the app readings as a prompt for when to key on or charge the bike.
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Sorry if this has been asked already but I couldn't find any reference to it. Is the ZeNGo app good enough for keeping an eye on the 12V battery?
The five amp charger seems too high for a motorcycle battery. I would use one of these. (https://www.amazon.com/MOTOPOWER-MP00207A-Automatic-Maintainer-Batteries/dp/B01DYE5H9C/ref=sxin_16_pa_sp_search_thematic_sspa?content-id=amzn1.sym.d5d2dbeb-b217-4d41-ad6b-bc4af55d7521%3Aamzn1.sym.d5d2dbeb-b217-4d41-ad6b-bc4af55d7521&crid=2PU581UI9O855&cv_ct_cx=lithium+battery+maintainer&keywords=lithium+battery+maintainer&pd_rd_i=B01DYE5H9C&pd_rd_r=c2286b3c-d496-461a-93fc-47a2f6833e05&pd_rd_w=ugqLN&pd_rd_wg=Nfq83&pf_rd_p=d5d2dbeb-b217-4d41-ad6b-bc4af55d7521&pf_rd_r=5RC7A1DEH2S6J6H5SA3G&qid=1672867913&sprefix=lith+battery+mainatainer%2Caps%2C201&sr=1-3-a73d1c8c-2fd2-4f19-aa41-2df022bcb241-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFTQ0xTMjBWRldUVksmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA0ODM0ODgyT1E3M1NCQUxaQk41JmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA0ODQ3MDYzQTMyTTI5VVhMS1hMJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3Bfc2VhcmNoX3RoZW1hdGljJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==)
I expect the thingy to monitor the battery will work very well. But I never used that one, I use something like that for my 12volt house battery in my RVs that work very well.
-Don- Auburn, CA
That charger specifically says it's not for LiFePO4 batteries, which is the chemistry in our 12v packs. You need a LiFePO4 specific charger.
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That charger specifically says it's not for LiFePO4 batteries, which is the chemistry in our 12v packs. You need a LiFePO4 specific charger.
Thanks for pointing that out, I never noticed that before. But I now wonder why it cannot be used on LiFePO4. What is the major difference between it and a plain lith ion to such a small low current 12V charger?
But I know there are some differences such as mentioned here. (https://www.coremax-tech.com/differences-lithium-ion-battery-lifepo4-lithium-polymer-batteries/#:~:text=LiFePO4%20batteries%20are%20less%20energy%20dense%2C%20making%20them,lithium%20variety%20and%20have%20extremely%20long%20cycle%20life.)
"LiFePO4 batteries (http://coremax-tech.com/prismatic-lifepo4-batteries-battery-packs/) are less energy dense, making them bigger and heavier than li-ion. Most LiFePO4 varieties also have lower discharge ratings, making them less powerful. LiFePO4 are also more expensive than li-ion, but they are the safest lithium variety and have extremely long cycle life."
-Don- Auburn, CA