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[Richard230]

Here is some VIN trivia for you.  I went back through my motorcycle purchase records and found the VIN of my first electric motorcycle. It was a 2008 Electric Motorsport GPR-S, produced in a home garage-sized "factory" by a small company in Oakland, California. This company only produced a handful of motorcycles that year, but they were actually purchased by customers all over the U.S. and I bought mine from an electric vehicle retailer, The Electric Green Showroom, in San Carlos (or was it Redwood City?), CA.  (Photo attached). 

The VIN of this bike (long since dissolved into its component parts) was: 1E9GSR16581456016  (My guess is that it was probably the 16th model that they produced that year, which I believe was their first year of electric motorcycle production, other than specialty and pre-production vehicles.) 

At that time the company was selling through both retailers like the Electric Green Showroom and directly from the factory.  However, when I went to purchase my 2010 GPR-S in the fall of 2009, I was told by the factory that they had lost their CA DMV retail selling license and I would have to make my purchase directly from one of their independent retailers like The Electric Green Store or Hollywood Electrics.

[togo]

Contrast their nhtsa filings with Lightning Rod Motorcycles, who at least submitted a VIN decoding document.

https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov/mid/manufacturer/details/8685

https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov/mid/manufacturer/details/14773

[mistasam]

There's too much instigating going on here and not enough investigating.  Back when I put my deposit in for a Strike (in October 2018), I did as much research as I could.  I emailed ex-coworkers to ask about the company.  I hunted down the elusive LS218 owners to ask them about their bikes and their experience riding them.  Everything I heard checked out.  Every story that sounded suspicious, or too convenient (my bike is in the shop so I can't show you), ended up not being suspicious at all.  I went to the shop.  I saw the bike there.

We've built up this idea that the company is a huge scam operation just because they've been quiet online.  When in reality, they're too busy building bikes.

You have to realize, I'm just a normal guy who called up a motorcycle company and asked for a tour.  And everyone else's tour and test ride has also been guided by the CEO, so I didn't get special treatment.  I put in a reservation partly as a test, to see if it was possible for a normal, non-investor, non-racer, average electric motorcycle enthusiast to buy a Lightning, and that's what I'm in the process of doing.  And documenting that process for everyone else to see.

[Crissa]

And we're seen them on the street in California, ridden by someone who probably just thought it was cool, not someone anywhere near the factory.

It's a weird bike, sure, but just because there's not a huge number if videos of people riding say Arch motorcycles doesn't mean they're a scam.

-Crissa

[wavelet]

And we're seen them on the street in California, ridden by someone who probably just thought it was cool, not someone anywhere near the factory.

It's a weird bike, sure, but just because there's not a huge number if videos of people riding say Arch motorcycles doesn't mean they're a scam.

-Crissa

I don't think Lightning are an explicit scam -- there are far better ways of scamming money out of people with  less  work  .
They do seem to have the startup malaise / bug / feature (depending on whether you're the startup or its customers  ) of being very over-optimistic about their capabilities & timelines, and, unfortunately, also being quite bad at communications with the outside world.

That said, they are IMO certainly guilty of making fraudulent claims about the LS-218 (calling it the "fastest production motorcycle" when that record was made with a one-off version of the bike,  and claiming it has a specific EPA electric range, when in fact the EPA does not test or publish any efficiency/range figures for motorcycles at all, electric or ICE.

[NEW2elec]

Wavelet quote:I don't think Lightning are an explicit scam -- there are far better ways of scamming money out of people with  less  work.

Yes I 100% agree.

Richard has had great racing success.  I think if a group of investors wanted to start an open class electric motorcycle racing series he would be a great guy to be one of the leaders.
But that's not what we're talking about so we have to address what is here now and what is likely to happen in the future with production motorcycles.

The LS218 was/is a custom bike.  People can argue the use of "production" but that seems to be a loose definition that's hard to nail down.
On their website they have an * and state the salt flat run was with a aero pod and high speed gearing so I feel that isn't lying in any way they admit what they used to get that speed.  Gates be damned, records by such and such group be damned the bike went real damn fast period.
That doesn't mean a street LS218 will go 218 MPH.  The only issue there should be a full disclosure for the real world or even track specs of a street LS218 so a buyer would know what THEY are getting and not what the company can achieve through their racing efforts.
If someone has $40-60k and wants a super fast electric motorcycle Lightning could likely make you one.

But that's not the real issue either.  It's the Strike, and in my opinion the results are from someone thinking a group in China was going to be this wonderful godsend.
 They believed China could make super cheap batteries and components to make a 150MPH, 20kWh battery, Brembo-Onlins having, CCS charging, 6kw AC charging, liquid cooled, sub 500lbs electric sport bike for $20k.
 Not only did they think this could happen they announced that it would happen in March of 2019 but there doesn't seem to be even a single example of THAT bike anywhere. Not even a demo.  That is the part that gets me.
I think they thought it could happen but when it clearly wasn't going to happen that way they didn't come out and say we got duped and this China factory can't make a bike of this high quaility that we thought they could. 

China can make cheap short range weak powered city bikes like they use in China but if they could produce a world class super bike they'd be making and selling it themselves.
There are videos of the knock markets in China where they sell all the things they make for US companies but for a fraction of the cost because there is no R&D they just steal the product idea and churn them out.

I STILL hope it gets made but I don't see how at this point.  The excuses and reasons of tariffs and things are long gone, maybe the virus now?  To me they don't need to be making a thousand a week or something like that but they should have 15 or so finished full spec Carbon Strikes at this point if they can make them at all.  Lightning was small but the China factory wasn't so no excuse there.

That's my feelings on Lightning at this point yours may differ.

[Fran K]

……...On their website they have an * and state the salt flat run was with a aero pod and high speed gearing so I feel that isn't lying in any way they admit what they used to get that speed.  Gates be damned, records by such and such group be damned the bike went real damn fast period.

I don't see the askerisk.  I think I found the record on the internet site of http://nebula.wsimg.com/b314ca8f5567116ebfbffbec7755fae8?AccessKeyId=1B489604A3781742F233&disposition=0&alloworigin=1
Isn't there AMA/FIM and everything else is kind of outlaw.

[Crissa]

China produces the parts they use to make our bikes.

So why wouldn't they be able to make the bikes?

Well, because assembly and quality control is not as easy at all.  You order assemblies, and you hope that the parts you get back are right.  And all I've had manufactured is a few wiring jigs, and even then, half were wired together upside down.  *shrug*  A bike is soo much more complex.

-Crissa

PS, no star today, but they do use the careful wording of 'potential':  https://lightningmotorcycle.com/product/performance/

[mistasam]

Just so everybody is clear, the bikes have been designed and built in California.  They have a full CNC setup there.  All the testing is done before sending the files over to China to get the parts mass-produced in a larger facility.  So it's not like they send plans to China without making the parts first.

As far as a 20kWh test bike, they have it.  I've seen it.  Richard posted a photo of one charging at 28kW.  And better yet, the bikes that have been delivered with temporary batteries are being upgraded as we speak!

There is still too much speculation going on here.  Why not email the company to ask what they're doing?  Get a friend to go take a tour.  Have a chat with one of the owners on facebook.  There are better ways of figuring out what's going on than guessing.

[MVetter]

Technically he posted a picture of a station charge screen.

[mistasam]

Technically he posted a picture of a station charge screen.

Yeah what happened when people thought they didn't have a running bike?  Someone went on a test ride.  What happened when people thought they weren't delivering bikes?  Someone took delivery of a bike.  At what point do we stop doubting them?

[Crissa]

And I assembled my wiring jigs before sending the plans over to China, too.

It's just not so easy to get things done.  Those last little bits are always difficult!

-Crissa

[MVetter]

Yeah what happened when people thought they didn't have a running bike?  Someone went on a test ride.  What happened when people thought they weren't delivering bikes?  Someone took delivery of a bike.  At what point do we stop doubting them?

I guess when I'm able to see it do all the promised things. I've obviously seen at least one of these bikes up close. I feel is it very poorly constructed and dangerous in many ways. People versed in motorcycles and batteries who saw it also all agreed. It is full of FLAGRANT safety violations. It is also way under-spec for what was promised.

As soon as we saw the bike we admitted that bikes are being delivered. We were wrong and freely admit that. Are they anywhere near the specs that were promised? No. Are they safe? In our, and many other people's opinions, no. I'm willing to bet that the Brammo Empulse we have here will outperform it.

Brandon was skeptical of Energica until he rode one. Bike delivered. We've both been HIGHLY skeptical and critical of the LiveWire until we rode one. Bike delivers. We've both been highly skeptical and critical of Lightning. We rode one. Bike did not deliver.

[Crissa]

I disagreed with the electric danger, M.

-Crissa

[mistasam]

Yeah as was said before, Guido crashed his bike.. carbon fiber everywhere.. even his swing arm broke in half, to paint a picture of how bad the accident was.. and yet the battery did not catch on fire.  I get that there are safety precautions when designing a battery (potting like Zero does, or building a 2 ton vault like Energica does) but saying the Strike could be killed with a garden hose is hugely exaggerating.

This is getting way off topic though.  Real life actual Lightning owners exist, and we should be excited that there are more electric sportbike options available now!