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[Richard230]

I am curious about EV battery life.  As we all know, EV manufactures provide an estimated battery pack life expectancy down to 80% of the packs original capacity.  But my question is how does the average EV owner know when the battery pack has degraded to 80%.  No doubt that can be scientifically tested, but how does the owner know when to ask a shop to perform this testing to determine if the pack is at the end of its life and needs to be replaced?

And if that ever happens to a Zero, I wonder how much it would cost to replace the bike's battery pack?

[NEW2elec]

Well the big boys say you have to drain it down and fill it back up and watch your Kill a Watt meter to see how much it puts in.

I want to say a battery replacement for a full size pack is about $6000.  A Zero dealer could quote you a price I'm sure.

I've seen my 17's SOC % acting strange lately myself.  I think Don said he is having a similar issue.

In the summer I'm getting maybe 1.5 miles per % number and I know it's cooler and I lose range.  But the lowest I've ridden in is about 38F
and plenty in the 50s and 60s.  My work commute is 56 miles total with only 18 miles at 55-60MPH  the rest is 35-45 on little town back roads.
In the summer I might come home with 55-60% and now I've been getting home at 35%.
Here's the kicker, if I plug it in it jumps up pretty quick to 45-50-% in like 10 minutes.  The app shows the same info as the dash.
I had a few days where it sat after I got home with 36% and it showed 49% when I plugged it in.
I know the SOC % isn't super accurate for true remaining capacity but I don't remember it this far off.

[MostlyBonkers]

Hi Richard,

I've been quiet on here for quite a while but Tapatalk notified me of your post and I thought I had something to contribute. 

The 11.4 battery in my 2014 DSP was replaced about a year ago under warranty. As part of that process I learn that the cost of a new one is £4,000 here in the UK.

That’s about what the bike is worth if I were to sell it privately!

I hope you and the rest of the EMF community are keeping well.

[Crissa]

Well, the major cars - Leaf, Boot, Tesla - have battery management systems which test the battery health and then conservatively limit it, reporting the loss in range.

I don't think they have a testing process for Zeros, looking at how dealers seem to handle the question.

-Crissa

[Richard230]

Hi Richard,

I've been quiet on here for quite a while but Tapatalk notified me of your post and I thought I had something to contribute. 

The 11.4 battery in my 2014 DSP was replaced about a year ago under warranty. As part of that process I learn that the cost of a new one is £4,000 here in the UK.

That’s about what the bike is worth if I were to sell it privately!

I hope you and the rest of the EMF community are keeping well.

Thanks Bonkers. That price doesn't sound too bad to me, especially if it includes labor. Paying $5,200 to replace a battery pack sounds about right - especially if you get the 450,000 miles out of the original battery pack as claimed in Zero's 2017 paper brochure.   

[DonTom]

I am curious about EV battery life.  As we all know, EV manufactures provide an estimated battery pack life expectancy down to 80% of the packs original capacity.

Tesla uses 70% for their warranties, but Zero uses 80%.

They should have the equipment to test the battery under load at shop temperature. I assume if the battery tests bad under warranty it is all covered. But if it tests good, I assume we will have to pay the labor rate for their testing.

I don't think there is a way possible to know when you hit that 80% as a rider. Too many variables, even for the same ride on different days. But perhaps you can tell by a faster charge time. But that may not be consistent. But it is common for the charge time to decrease in proportion to the KWHs left in an EV battery. But not always. Depends on how the battery ages. There is more than one way for an EV battery to fail or age.  The charge time decrease happens  with my DS.

It charges twice as fast as the display says it will take, which is also twice as fast in real time to get to 100% SOC. And my range seems to average about 50% of what it was when new.

My main reason to come to Auburn was to pick up my RV (bad fuel pump inside 55 gallon tank). I rode my Zero DS to the repair place 12 miles from here. All down hill, to Newcastle today.  Took 50% of my charge at 50MPH average, all downhill to go that 12 miles. I put the bike on the RV hitch ramp and drove my RV  back here with the bike.

In a few days or so,  I will  take my DS back to Reno. On my Jeep, using the same cycle ramp.  I have an appointment with  EuroCycles in Reno  in less than a week from today.

Then I will know more about how all this works. My biggest fear is if they find it has 80.1% capacity left .

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[MostlyBonkers]

Have you had a look at the logs from your bike Don? In my case they flagged up a couple of bad cells. You could have the same issue, as the net effect was a considerable drop in range.

[Richard230]

While slightly off topic, one of my fears is that I will recollection of how far I can travel to a destination based upon previous experience only to find that battery capacity had degraded enough (without me being aware of it) to not get there without finding someplace to recharge - in my case at 1300 watts.

Case in point: When my bike was new I was able to ride for 150 miles on a route that took me from my home to Big Basin State Park, back up the coast highway to my town, where the SOC hit "00", but I was able to make it all the way back on the 10 mile "reserve" capacity, arriving home with a remaining range of 4 miles.  I don't think I would want to give that ride a try again as I bet my battery pack, which seems healthy enough, has lost enough capacity to not make that trip again on a single charge.

[DonTom]

I don't think they have a testing process for Zeros, looking at how dealers seem to handle the question.

I recall reading somewhere they have a way to load test the battery to see if it qualifies for a warranty repair.

Obviously they are not going to replace such an expensive item under warranty is they cannot be sure.

By far, the battery is the most expensive item in the bike.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[DonTom]

Have you had a look at the logs from your bike Don? In my case they flagged up a couple of bad cells. You could have the same issue, as the net effect was a considerable drop in range.

No, I haven't. I didn't even think about that. But I will soon do such and report back here what I find.

Thanks!

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[TheRan]

You can't judge the battery condition on the time to charge, it's not a constant rate. The best way to judge it is to use a kilowatt hour meter (such a a Kill-a-watt) and see just how much energy is going into it, then compare that to the nominal capacity that Zero gives.

[Richard230]

You can't judge the battery condition on the time to charge, it's not a constant rate. The best way to judge it is to use a kilowatt hour meter (such a a Kill-a-watt) and see just how much energy is going into it, then compare that to the nominal capacity that Zero gives.

Less a percentage factor for the inefficiency of the charger.  Probably something like 10%.   

[TheRan]

You can't judge the battery condition on the time to charge, it's not a constant rate. The best way to judge it is to use a kilowatt hour meter (such a a Kill-a-watt) and see just how much energy is going into it, then compare that to the nominal capacity that Zero gives.

Less a percentage factor for the inefficiency of the charger.  Probably something like 10%.   

92-94% efficiency on 115v and 220v respectively according to the specs. Ideally the test would be done when the battery is new to compare with so the efficiency doesn't need to be accounted for and you don't have to rely on Zero giving accurate numbers.

[DonTom]

You can't judge the battery condition on the time to charge, it's not a constant rate. The best way to judge it is to use a kilowatt hour meter (such a a Kill-a-watt) and see just how much energy is going into it, then compare that to the nominal capacity that Zero gives.

Charge time  was certainly a very good clue on my DS!

FWIW, an AC  kill-a-watt meter only tells you the KWH used going into the battery. Any load will give a reading.  Even if no battery is involved.

BTW, I do have one of those around here somewhere. But I can see I am charging at 1.4 KW with the Zero app. And that is the DC output power.

When  the display says it will take 2.0 hours to charge to 100% and it is at 100% in 45 minutes to get to 100% SOC, something is obviously  wrong. And since my range is also less and half, it's obvious it means a flaky battery in my case.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[TheRan]

You can't judge the battery condition on the time to charge, it's not a constant rate. The best way to judge it is to use a kilowatt hour meter (such a a Kill-a-watt) and see just how much energy is going into it, then compare that to the nominal capacity that Zero gives.

Charge time  was certainly a very good clue on my DS!

FWIW, an AC  kill-a-watt meter only tells you the KWH used going into the battery. Any load will give a reading.  Even if no battery is involved.

BTW, I do have one of those around here somewhere. But I can see I am charging at 1.4 KW with the Zero app. And that is the DC output power.

When  the display says it will take 2.0 hours to charge to 100% and it is at 100% in 45 minutes to get to 100% SOC, something is obviously  wrong. And since my range is also less and half, it's obvious it means a flaky battery in my case.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

When charging my bike it varies between a little over 800 watts to just over 1500 watts, without graphing that over time I can't possibly estimate how much energy has gone into the battery. Of course charging time will give you an idea if capacity is reduced, if comparing it to earlier times, but it can't be used to figure out by how much.