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[TheRan]

Perhaps wide spread was the wrong term to use, dukecola's description of being sparse would be a better fit.

[pacificcricket]

Perhaps wide spread was the wrong term to use, dukecola's description of being sparse would be a better fit.

Cool. Well, either way my take on this is irrelevant. Zero is going to do whatever they're going to do, without consulting with their customers, or without telling their customers about their plans. Unlike Tesla.

[wavelet]

I don't think it's difficult to understand, it's just that CCS chargers are not currently a reliable network everywhere a bike would want to charge yet.

-Crissa

You again ignored ChaDemo, but either way... Zero can talk to Elon, and get access to Tesla network. Problem solved.

CHAdeMO is dying outside Japan. Only two vehicle models sold in North America and three in Europe support it, and one of them (the Mitsu Outlander PHEV) doesn't really need DC charging -- it has an ICE and a fairly small battery. Also, the Leaf isn't selling very well; even Japanese carmakers are dropping support outside Japan: Honda is using CCS both in Europe (on the e) as well as in North America (Clarity BEV). Mazda will also not be using CHAdeMO, and the upcoming Lexus BEV (Toyota's first outside China) is also expected to use CCS.

While I expect existing CHAdeMO chargers to be maintained for now, there are going to be very few new ones going forward -- it doesn't make economic sense. In a recent interview with Electrify America execs they said they don't expect to change their policy of a single CHAdeMO charger per site. Ionity in Europe isn't even doing that.
Were I now shopping for a BEV car in either region, CHAdeMO cars would be eliminated on that basis alone.

Back to bikes:
I don't see DC chargers getting very cheap for a long time -- not until/unless storage batteries become very cheap or utility demand charges become very low (not really likely even on a grid mostly based on renewables -- someone has to pay for the grid itself). As a result, I don't see them becoming common where there isn't a lot of through traffic that needs the distance (e.g., scenic backroads). So once bikes with DC charging it'll become easier to get to the Good Roads^TM, but not much easier to recharge along them.

[Crissa]

You again ignored ChaDemo, but either way... Zero can talk to Elon, and get access to Tesla network. Problem solved.

https://chargedevs.com/features/zero-motorcycles-was-forced-to-abandon-a-dc-fast-charging-option-in-2013-better-interoperability-testing-is-needed/

I didn't ignore it, no one mentioned it.  It's a different standard with its own problems.

You might as well have asked why don't they try for Supercharger compatibility.  (Which I guess you did in a later post?  It was unclear.)  Although, I can't find any public caveats, but it's probably that any company that does so needs to also make their stuff open-source.  And they would have to be second-class Supercharger citizens, like owning a lower tier Android phone.  That might be worth it for such a robust network, tho.

-Crissa

[wavelet]

You again ignored ChaDemo, but either way... Zero can talk to Elon, and get access to Tesla network. Problem solved.

https://chargedevs.com/features/zero-motorcycles-was-forced-to-abandon-a-dc-fast-charging-option-in-2013-better-interoperability-testing-is-needed/

I didn't ignore it, no one mentioned it.  It's a different standard with its own problems.

You might as well have asked why don't they try for Supercharger compatibility.  Although, I can't find any public caveats, but it's probably that any company that does so needs to also make their stuff open-source.  And they would have to be second-class Supercharger citizens, like owning a lower tier Android phone.

-Crissa

Right now, AFAIK, the other significant issue with potentially using Superchargers by non-Tesla vehicles is that there's no provision for opportunistic billing on the spot via credit card, or any other billing at all except automatically identifying the car to Tesla's servers and having a pre-existing billing relationship with Tesla. Tesla would need to make some big changes in their system architecture and charger hardware to support that.

[pacificcricket]

You again ignored ChaDemo, but either way... Zero can talk to Elon, and get access to Tesla network. Problem solved.

https://chargedevs.com/features/zero-motorcycles-was-forced-to-abandon-a-dc-fast-charging-option-in-2013-better-interoperability-testing-is-needed/

I didn't ignore it, no one mentioned it.  It's a different standard with its own problems.

You might as well have asked why don't they try for Supercharger compatibility.  Although, I can't find any public caveats, but it's probably that any company that does so needs to also make their stuff open-source.  And they would have to be second-class Supercharger citizens, like owning a lower tier Android phone.

-Crissa

Ah, you're just not paying attention. My whole premise was around bumping up pack voltage. Chademo caused issues for Zero due to 100v being not lucrative for manufacturers of chargers to support, as most other vehicles on the road were quite a bit higher. If Zero matches voltages to such of say Leaf and Bolt, then Chademo will work just fine.

At least wavelet above is more serious with his comment

[wavelet]

My whole premise was around bumping up pack voltage. Chademo caused issues for Zero due to 100v being not lucrative for manufacturers of chargers to support, as most other vehicles on the road were quite a bit higher. If Zero matches voltages to such of say Leaf and Bolt, then Chademo will work just fine.

I don't think the issue was "not lucrative" per se, but rather that there were so few e-motorcycles around, that not only did CHAdeMO charger vendors not do any testing with them, but some weren't even aware that 100V BEVs existed. Unlike CCS, which does require 200V min (at least the current standard, IIRC), the CHAdeMO specs supports voltage down to 50V (not sure but I believe that's mandatory).  Yes, that means those chargers were not spec-compliant, but who cares what a few riders think?

There were some posts on EMF by Aaron from Zero a few years back, explaining that this is why Zero abandoned their CHAdeMO accessory charger: They discovered that compatibility varied so wildly, it would make for a bad customer experience. Eventually their only customers which bought the charger were bike fleets that were also willing to install their own known-compatible CHAdeMO charger.

[pacificcricket]

I don't think the issue was "not lucrative" per se

The problem is quite simple. If you make a variable power supply that supports 50-800V, it will be more complex and more expensive than a power supply that supports 200-800V. So why make more complicated and more expensive piece of equipment that is not really warranted by the market ?

[wavelet]

I don't think the issue was "not lucrative" per se

The problem is quite simple. If you make a variable power supply that supports 50-800V, it will be more complex and more expensive than a power supply that supports 200-800V. So why make more complicated and more expensive piece of equipment that is not really warranted by the market ?

That's really a legal/compliance issue. If a charger couldn't be imported or legally installed without a certificate of spec compliance from a certified test lab, they'd have to.
 I'd personally prefer that high-voltage equipment be required to undergo independent certification.

[Crissa]

Non-spec chargers should have never been installed.  They could have caused fires or destroyed equipment.

Tesla is going to have to support at-charger payments in California next year.  I don't know why, but our state mandated credit card machines.  VISA must have a powerful lobby.  But it may make some of these networks more reliable.

-Crissa

[wavelet]

Non-spec chargers should have never been installed.  They could have caused fires or destroyed equipment.

Fully agreed.

Tesla is going to have to support at-charger payments in California next year.  I don't know why, but our state mandated credit card machines.  VISA must have a powerful lobby.  But it may make some of these networks more reliable.

Not sure it's the CC lobby.
I see many complaints in EV forums about the large variety of networks that require each its own membership & card and/or smartphone app (not just DC charging -- all types); there's a  perception this makes charging much too burdensome to the point it's hindering EV adoption. After all, every publicly-accessible gas station (well, every one I've ever been to) allows opportunistic payment via CC, whatever other methods they support.

The UK already has such rules in process, and IIRC so do several other countries.
I suspect that the California law you mention will also require accepting one-off payments without any membership (although possibly at a higher price).

What is surprising to me is that this law applies to a private network such as Tesla's, rather than only to public networks. If this is because they wanted no exceptions, what are they going to do about completely private destination chargers (regardless of whether EV brand-specific or not) like at hotels, which don't charge money for charging, but are reserved for guest use only?

[Crissa]

I don't believe it applies to older chargers (so pre-existing chargers can stay the way they are, until the site is upgraded). And it doesn't apply to chargers that don't have direct fees.

So a charger that comes with parking or a room doesn't need a payment system.  No per-minute, per-kilowatt payment, no system needed.  So destination and free chargers are fine.

-Crissa

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Diginow managed to fit nearly 10kW into the space of the stock SDS charger (well, a tiny bit larger), and that's with 3 separate units. Zero themselves should be able to do better, at least better than they do at the moment.

I think it should be made clear that the units that DigiNow used for v2 and onwards are good units but were literally rejects from Zero R&D. They couldn't make the units work within regulations.

Zero aren't idiots, and DigiNow aren't geniuses.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Zero can talk to Elon, and get access to Tesla network. Problem solved.

This is a laughable suggestion. So, either name a company that has accomplished this, or explain why Tesla would even bother negotiating a deal with Zero.

[TheRan]

Diginow managed to fit nearly 10kW into the space of the stock SDS charger (well, a tiny bit larger), and that's with 3 separate units. Zero themselves should be able to do better, at least better than they do at the moment.

I think it should be made clear that the units that DigiNow used for v2 and onwards are good units but were literally rejects from Zero R&D. They couldn't make the units work within regulations.

Zero aren't idiots, and DigiNow aren't geniuses.

Interesting, never knew that. Do you know why Zero gave up on them, or do you mean Zero couldn't make them work (I know Diginow had problems with them)? In what way were they outside of regulations? It doesn't seem like something that should be too hard to get working well, at least just a single unit which would have been better than what we have now.