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[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

a 6kW chargetank and ~1C CCS charging would work great in a combo with an aerodynamic package. Even a 90-100 miles usable freeway range would be great with 1C charging. This would mean we only charge to ~80% and discharge to ~20% and get about 90-100 miles of freeway range. And that portion of the battery could possibly be charged in ~30 mins with 1C rates.

Yes, that's the next hilltop in Zero travel - get the range up at highway speeds so that the 20-80% range covers a nice long distance and then charge using 1 plug at 1C for ~35 minutes per stop, without stressing the battery too much so you can repeat it.

I should determine how many miles per day that should cover for an 18kWh total maximum pack (latest bike with power tank). What it should mean (napkin math until I update my simulation) is that one could cover 600 miles in 12 hours, which is enough for most people and would support an Iron Butt certification if the route has no charging station issues.

Would the DC-DC stepdown approach be configurable to any battery capacity 1C rates? Like ZF14.4, ZF13.0 and various combinations of PT's?
This would be a more scalable solution to retrofit existing battery pack as well.

It'd probably cost a good deal of R&D to adapt it between platforms, just as we've seen the Power Tank delayed for the SR/F, because the form factor, cable harness, and control systems are largely different. But we haven't seen the solution yet, so it's anyone's guess.

[shayan]

Yes, that's the next hilltop in Zero travel - get the range up at highway speeds so that the 20-80% range covers a nice long distance and then charge using 1 plug at 1C for ~35 minutes per stop, without stressing the battery too much so you can repeat it.

I should determine how many miles per day that should cover for an 18kWh total maximum pack (latest bike with power tank). What it should mean (napkin math until I update my simulation) is that one could cover 600 miles in 12 hours, which is enough for most people and would support an Iron Butt certification if the route has no charging station issues.

That would be a great estimate to have! And yes, it should be possible in 11.5-12hrs maybe, assuming: 1. that we start with a full tank. 2. Average speed 70mph.
The aerodynamics will also have lesser stress on the battery due to reduced discharge rate. So i guess repetitive 1C charging should not be too bad. Summer will be the only one that will make things tricky. But it wont be possible without a battery less than 18kWh i guess, because only this can give an ~10kWh usable energy between 20-80%. And with that, 100wH/mile can take us to 100 miles. On my setup i can do a ~80wH/mile when i'm fully tucked in, so to achieve 100wH/mile it should not be too uncomfortable ride position wise.

It'd probably cost a good deal of R&D to adapt it between platforms, just as we've seen the Power Tank delayed for the SR/F, because the form factor, cable harness, and control systems are largely different. But we haven't seen the solution yet, so it's anyone's guess.

Is it because the ZF14.4 on the SR/F is different from the ZF14.4 on the rest of the bikes?

[pacificcricket]

I don't expect much from this. Yes, some fairings could improve the range a bit and give it sexy looks (some want that), but what Zero needs is a DC charging compatible platform, or it never happened. Zero is lucky Elon is afraid of street bikes, or he'd bury them like he did with Chevy and alikes.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

I repeat: BOTH charging AND aerodynamics improve electric vehicle performance. Both curves matter in increasing the performance envelope. This is not an either/or proposition.

I'm also pretty sure that any attempt by the electric car industry to try to produce an electric motorcycle will run into quality issues and difficulty in getting what they're comfortable with it with only the equipment they can fit on the vehicle. Electric motorcycle engineering is inherently difficult. Cars have all sorts of natural robustness in terms of using mass and volume for weather protection, redundant components, over-engineering, etc.

[pacificcricket]

I repeat: BOTH charging AND aerodynamics improve electric vehicle performance. Both curves matter in increasing the performance envelope. This is not an either/or proposition.

Fairings don't require a significant engineering effort such as redesign of powertrain, especially when original powertrain is based on off-shelf components.

I'm also pretty sure that any attempt by the electric car industry to try to produce an electric motorcycle will run into quality issues and difficulty in getting what they're comfortable with it with only the equipment they can fit on the vehicle. Electric motorcycle engineering is inherently difficult. Cars have all sorts of natural robustness in terms of using mass and volume for weather protection, redundant components, over-engineering, etc.

Yeah, many industries feel special and immune to newcomers. Passenger cars, semi trucks, pickup trucks, all-terrain vehicles, rockets, satellites. It's nice to feel special and unique, all the way to the end

[Crissa]

Every implementation has its hurdles.

The weather and vibration proofing that a Zero needs is so many times more intense than a Tesla has.  And that's before the balancing act that a motorized bike is.  Just as a Tesla has so many more parts and steps to be built than a Zero.  There's a reason only a few companies straddle the automotive-motorcycle divide, and that's before getting into EV technology.

-Crissa

[JaimeC]

I'm also pretty sure that any attempt by the electric car industry to try to produce an electric motorcycle will run into quality issues and difficulty in getting what they're comfortable with it with only the equipment they can fit on the vehicle. Electric motorcycle engineering is inherently difficult. Cars have all sorts of natural robustness in terms of using mass and volume for weather protection, redundant components, over-engineering, etc.

BMW is an interesting case study.  Back when I first started riding, the car and motorcycle divisions were completely separate and both the cars and bikes were widely considered the best in class in terms of reliability and durability.  I rode BMWs almost exclusively since I bought my first one in 1985 up until my ill-fated 2013 C650GT.  In the late 20th century/early 21st century they melded the two divisions and the "Car Guys" basically took over both operations.

Now, instead of two separate lines of bikes (the air-cooled, push-rod "boxers" and the water-cooled, inline three and four "K-bikes") you have multiple engine configurations and models spanning multiple markets.  The downside is the fact that BMW motorcycles now rate at the BOTTOM of consumer reliability rankings.  In a recent "Customer loyalty" ranking amongst automobile manufacturers, Mercedes Benz and Subaru had the most repeat customers (if someone owned one, they'd be far more likely to buy another) and BMW was at the BOTTOM (if you owned one, your next car was PROBABLY going to be another brand).

[shayan]

Fairings don't require a significant engineering effort such as redesign of powertrain, especially when original powertrain is based on off-shelf components.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but as i understand aerodynamic development is pretty expensive. Wind tunnel testing is what eats up most of the expense. Not to mention a lot of the virtual wind tunnel testing that needs to be done alongside. Based on the number of iterations that needs to happen to get a good design, i guess it will require a good amount of engineering effort.

[pacificcricket]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but as i understand aerodynamic development is pretty expensive. Wind tunnel testing is what eats up most of the expense. Not to mention a lot of the virtual wind tunnel testing that needs to be done alongside. Based on the number of iterations that needs to happen to get a good design, i guess it will require a good amount of engineering effort.

Any college student can do aerodynamics modeling in software these days. Welcome to the 21st

[JaimeC]

That's what they WANT you to think.  There's a reason Honda spends MILLIONS testing their MotoGP bikes in the a wind tunnel with their riders aboard.  Software is still no substitute for actual human feedback.

[pacificcricket]

That's what they WANT you to think.  There's a reason Honda spends MILLIONS testing their MotoGP bikes in the a wind tunnel with their riders aboard.  Software is still no substitute for actual human feedback.

I like your logic. There always must a good reason somebody is spending more money on something.

NASA’s original contracts called for Boeing to receive $4.82 billion for Starliner development, while SpaceX was allotted $3.14 billion for Crew Dragon development. But the report said that in 2016, NASA agreed to pay Boeing $287.2 million above the previously agreed-upon fixed price in order to address a perceived 18-month flight gap for four crewed missions, starting with the third flight.

Boeing reported its fourth-quarter results this morning, and they included a $410 million charge specifically earmarked to cover the cost of an additional Commercial Crew mission, should NASA determine that another uncrewed launch is required after the first one didn’t go as planned last December.

"Congratulations to SpaceX and the entire NASA team on this final major flight milestone that we needed to accomplish," NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine said during a postlaunch news conference on Sunday.

Now needless to say Zero is not the caliber of a company that would try to polish aerodynamics to the point of needing a wind tunnel, but clearly I can't be right.

[Crissa]

Computer models are pretty good, especially now, but you still need pretty hefty investment in scanning and design.  A small change unreflected in the model can have some impacts.

It's not like there aren't wind tunnels to rent in the Bay Area, tho.

-Crissa

[TireFryer426]

LOL, I can definitely vouche for that sentiment.  We had an '08 BMW M6, which was a fantastic car.  When it worked.  By the time it had 40k miles on it, it was costing over 10 grand a year to keep it on the road.  One time specifically, I had just replaced a throttle actuator, and less than 24 hours later the car blew the slave cylinder and needed a clutch.  We'll never own another BMW.  Which *sucks* because I really like their bikes.  And I was really leaning towards a M4.  To be fair, I think that time frame was pretty bad for everyone, not just BMW. 

I'm also pretty sure that any attempt by the electric car industry to try to produce an electric motorcycle will run into quality issues and difficulty in getting what they're comfortable with it with only the equipment they can fit on the vehicle. Electric motorcycle engineering is inherently difficult. Cars have all sorts of natural robustness in terms of using mass and volume for weather protection, redundant components, over-engineering, etc.

BMW is an interesting case study.  Back when I first started riding, the car and motorcycle divisions were completely separate and both the cars and bikes were widely considered the best in class in terms of reliability and durability.  I rode BMWs almost exclusively since I bought my first one in 1985 up until my ill-fated 2013 C650GT.  In the late 20th century/early 21st century they melded the two divisions and the "Car Guys" basically took over both operations.

Now, instead of two separate lines of bikes (the air-cooled, push-rod "boxers" and the water-cooled, inline three and four "K-bikes") you have multiple engine configurations and models spanning multiple markets.  The downside is the fact that BMW motorcycles now rate at the BOTTOM of consumer reliability rankings.  In a recent "Customer loyalty" ranking amongst automobile manufacturers, Mercedes Benz and Subaru had the most repeat customers (if someone owned one, they'd be far more likely to buy another) and BMW was at the BOTTOM (if you owned one, your next car was PROBABLY going to be another brand).

[Richard230]

I just don't see Zero making any significant changes to the SR/F design anytime soon.  They put too much time and effort into the bike to do anything but make minor updates - like better waterproofing.  I still say that the "S" version will just be a styling exercise and have more sporty plastics, like a nose fairing and bold new graphics. 

[NEW2elec]

Second bike at the end of 2020:
Come on FXR!