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Author Topic: Damon Motorcycles announces electric with 200mi range  (Read 11934 times)

Doug S

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Re: Damon Motorcycles announces electric with 200mi range
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2020, 11:00:35 PM »

We shall see. I think we're all hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.

As far as how much "proof testing" CES did, I'm guessing it was along the lines of "look how shiny it is!!!".
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NEW2elec

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Re: Damon Motorcycles announces electric with 200mi range
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2020, 09:53:40 PM »

Just shiny huh?  Ok good enough, I'll take it.   :)

So here is an interview with Derek Dorresteyn who was one of the founders of Alta and now COO and  Powertrain Development Manager of Damon.

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NEW2elec

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Re: Damon Motorcycles announces electric with 200mi range
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2020, 10:10:50 PM »

More info, well because I like it.

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togo

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Re: Damon Motorcycles announces electric with 200mi range
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2020, 11:49:15 PM »

"safe, secure, 200 mph"

who writes these things?
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wavelet

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Re: Damon Motorcycles announces electric with 200mi range
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2020, 03:09:21 AM »

"safe, secure, 200 mph"

who writes these things?
He's also being  hyperbolic and glib. It made a bad impression on me.
So a trip to Jakarta was the inspiration, when he found out motorcycles were the world's #1 form of transport (technically powered two-wheelers, as most aren't motorcycles but mopeds & scooters in terms of form factor) . And yet, the product isn't a safer Vespa-type scooter, it's a very high end motorcycle, which noone in the same Asian cities where scooters outnumber cars will ever be able to afford... Even here (Israel, an OECD member), scooters & mopeds outnumber actual motorcycles 10:1, the reverse ratio than in North America.

So a motorbike is "20ieth" the weight of a car? They're aiming at a 200kg bike, curb weight. 20x that, 4000kg, isn't car territory at all -- in most of the world outside North America, anything above 3500kg GVWR (realistically, 2500kg curb weight) would be a commercial vehicle. "10th" would be more like it.

Anyway, so a 200mi highway range is easy because of the low relative weight of a bike vs. car? That's glib, and he has to know it's completely false. Aerodynamics dominates  efficiency at those speeds. If it were so easy, how come no other e-motorcycle gets >100mi at highway speed (60mph per their definition)? And their specs talk about 160mi, not 200. Heck, ICE motorcycles don't do that well vs. ICE cars, given the weight ratio, at highway speeds?

He claims their current facility in downtown Vancouver can build 1500 bikes/year; that's pretty high for a startup which has yet to build a preproduction prototype bike, and looks like overkill at this stage, not to mention expensive to keep (that area is really expensive real-estate).

He disparages the dealership model without mention of how they expect to handle servicing a very complex, rare bike with electric drivetrain and lots of systems and components no other bike model has -- OTA updates can help with SW, sure, but HW fixes? Accident repair?
Ditto sales. They intend to sell direct-to-consumer ("like Tesla") -- how are they going to demonstrate the situational awareness & adjustable ergonomics aspects without test rides? No other bike has them.

Oh, way too many Tesla comparisons, as well.

They're raising $25M of financing, and are targeting 50 employees by year end, and 100 by end next year. That at least sounds reasonable.
Actually delivering production bikes in 18 months doesn't, but that can be treated as startup optimismTM.
 
 I hope this interview isn't representative of what Damon's trying to do... I actually like the idea of adjustable ergonomics as well as the situational awareness system, but don't think they make sense together with together with developing a from-scratch, high performance electric bike.

To the actual bike content:
Giraud says the situational awareness system tracks up to 64 objects 1.5-2 seconds ahead. That's seems insufficient for most reactions after receiving a warning, even at city speeds (in many cases, the correct reaction isn't braking, it's evasive maneuvers). The MSF courses, as well as other courses I've taken since outside the US,  use 12 seconds as the distance one should scan ahead, and I've generally found that to be good advice.
Granted, restrictions on processing power, memory or  cameras/sensors' range may make that infeasible, but IMO anything less than about 4-5 seconds would be basically worthless even at city speeds.

It'll be interesting to watch this develop...
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 04:20:12 AM by wavelet »
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Richard230

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Re: Damon Motorcycles announces electric with 200mi range
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2020, 05:52:18 AM »

Trolling for investor dollars, I bet.  ;)
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wavelet

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Re: Damon Motorcycles announces electric with 200mi range
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2020, 02:25:34 PM »

Trolling for investor dollars, I bet.  ;)
Yes, he also talked up the amount of investor interest they've been getting, which may be true, but who knows. I've met with hundreds of startup teams over the years, and I've yet to meet one that admitted otherwise to someone outside the company.
My post above probably  sounded quite harsh, so I should clarify. They do have a prototype that motojournalists have seen, ridden and reported on, as well as their Yamaha test mule for the situational awareness system (needs an acronym for brevity -- SAS), so it's certainly not vaporware.

But translating that into a working, sellable & maintainable bike product is a huge amount of work. Simply training the SAS SW on the many scenarios sounds like a huge job that would require data from tens of not hundreds of actual sensor & camera-equipped bikes on the road. Recall that bikes have lean angles, are capable of far more abrupt changes in orientation  than a car, as well as more extreme acceleration/deceleration, & more vibration. Just interpreting what the cameras/sensors are actually seeing is far problematic. Doing that high speeds yet more so.
Even if you're running a lot of the training on simulators rather a physical bike, the data still has to be collected. Where are they getting it?

Also, interestingly, Damon's using video cameras & radar as the sensors. I wonder if that's enough -- for autonomous cars, most companies working on them believe LIDAR is necessary; Tesla is the major exception.
Now SAS isn't positioned as a full SAE L4/L5 technology, so doesn't necessarily need to have the same level of object recognition, but if it identifies some objects but not others it could function in a manner not understandable to people, which is bad. Think of  cars' collision detection / automatic emergency braking systems: They're notoriously bad at detecting stationary objects, which is counter-intuitive for humans, since for us detecting a potential  collision with a stationary object is far easier than with a moving one.

One of the things I find puzzling about Damon is that I looks like they're targeting the most difficult P2W (powered 2-wheeler) type for an SAS to handle right off the bat: A high-end sportbike.
In their place, I would be thinking of the expensive, high end maxi-scooters like the Suzuki Burgman 650, BMW C650, Yamaha TMax etc.
They typically cost more than same-displacement bikes (the Burgman is $11K in the US). At least here, the people who buy them tend to be wealthy, experienced riders who want a comfortable traffic-beating longish-distance commuter, although many also tour on them.
Such scooters seem to be far easier to develop an SAS for than an extreme sportbike: Far slower speeds, less extreme maneuvers, more suburban riding than canyon-carving -- easier as initial goal. I also think it would be a very sellable extra-cost feature & differentiation for the scooter manufacturers.

Hopefully Damon will release more info about the capabilities & limitations of the SAS, actual or planned, as time goes by.
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Richard230

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Re: Damon Motorcycles announces electric with 200mi range
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2020, 04:26:56 AM »

It sounds to me like Damon Motorcycles is going to need more investors - a lot more - before their planned high-tech motorcycle can become real enough to hit the consumer market.
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NEW2elec

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Re: Damon Motorcycles announces electric with 200mi range
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2020, 05:59:20 AM »

I'm going to go ahead and defend them at this point and see what comes of it.  They say they are going to do a test ride tour through parts of the country and I signed up for their newsletter and I'll see how that goes.

So they list their investors on their website under the "team" tab as:
Round 3 Capital
Techstars
Extreme venture partners
Pallasite ventures
Oh and partnered with Blackberry.  Remember them?  They had phone things with a tiny little keyboard.   :)

Now how much that comes to?  Who knows.  Do they want/need more?  Very likely.

But as for "production ready" what does that even mean anymore?  Slap it together and get it out there and cover problems with warranties and recalls seems to be the norm for most all vehicle companies now.

Those plastic parts we put on to save weight vs the old metal parts we used to use have cracked and melted?  Here have a free one.
Endless software updates and fixes are the norm as well.  Body panels look like Michael Strahan's teeth, no biggie.
You say your not getting the EPA range for your vehicle?  Really?  Wow that's amazing.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 06:03:05 AM by NEW2elec »
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Frank

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Re: Damon Motorcycles announces electric with 200mi range
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2020, 07:20:22 PM »

Harsh, but they have already shown me more than Lightning.

Lightning has been racing for years (maybe not recently but their pedigree is well established).  I like their ideas and hope these guys do well but I don't think their performance claims are based on anything except hopes and dreams.
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NEW2elec

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Re: Damon Motorcycles announces electric with 200mi range
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2020, 09:22:36 PM »

Oh I know, I cheered Lightning on with their Pikes Peak win (from home) and salt flats run years ago.  The reference was towards the Strike which is coming up on their one year anniversary of the release of the Carbon Strike 20kWh, CCS charging, $20k sport bike that hasn't been made yet.
Damon's 200MPH claim is the one I'm not so sure of but the rest is very doable.  An Ego should do 150MPH so who knows with the right gearing maybe.

Damon is supposed to be at Daytona for bike week and maybe doing test rides, we'll see.

To me these are the kinds of jumps in specs startups should be able to achieve with advances in tech and not having to reinvent the wheel.
But if they prove to be all talk and no show I'll gladly admit I was wrong.
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wavelet

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Re: Damon Motorcycles announces electric with 200mi range
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2020, 12:36:11 AM »

Damon's 200MPH claim is the one I'm not so sure of but the rest is very doable. 
Actually, that's the easiest one to believe. If you sacrifice other characteristics, close to 200mph is provably doable on a production bike with appropriate tyres;
A 1999 Hayabusa approaches that, with 266 kg / 586 lb.  wet weight , as does a Panigale R. 

Now maintaining that speed for any length of time might be  a stretch on an EV bike due to cooling system or battery capacity, but noone claimed any specific distance or time at that speed.

The situational awareness system is IME the least doable, given how complex the SW and HW must be -- AFAICS, it requires a significant % of development work a car ADAS  does, and those take teams of many engineers many years.
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togo

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Re: Damon Motorcycles announces electric with 200mi range
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2020, 01:09:50 AM »

> Oh and partnered with Blackberry.  Remember them?  They had phone things with a tiny little keyboard.   :)

Blackberry bought QNX, which is a real-time unix-compatible operating system used in critical realtime controls applications, like artificial hearts and stuff, so that's what that is about.  A competitor to Wind River.  (In a previous professional life, I did Board Support Packages for ruggedized/industrial/embedded PCs.)


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Frank

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Re: Damon Motorcycles announces electric with 200mi range
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2020, 06:25:35 PM »

I believe the '99 and '00 Busa's (pre-restriction) were never tested to more than 190 mph or so.  It sounds close to 200 but it is not even close.  It takes about 200 hp to do 200 mph with the OEM bodywork and if Damon's aero is equivalent to a 'Busa (I don't believe it is) then that goal is possible.  I suspect their list of "specs" on the web page is a list of design goals, admirable ones though!

If their goal is LS-218 level performance and their hardware allows it, they'll end up geared for 150-160 mph and that *is* scary quick and fast.  OTOH, I think on-the-fly adjustable riding position and safety features are a game changer if they can pull it off.
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princec

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Re: Damon Motorcycles announces electric with 200mi range
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2020, 09:56:01 PM »

Not sure why they're bothering with these lofty speed ambitions... the motorcycling market has changed vastly in the last 20 years. Almost nobody cares about doing over a ton any more.

Cas :)
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