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[Crissa]

"You put more voltage through a PC power supply and... It consumes less current."

A lamp is a resistor.  Also, you put more voltage through it and it'll blow up.  You put more voltage through a PC power supply and... It consumes less current.

I think at this point you're just trolling, Don.

-Crissa

[TheRan]

There is absolutely no reason why it wouldn't have the capability to limit itself to the designed wattage.

There is no reason to expect that  anybody to try to put 480 VAC on it. So why limit it outside of its expected ratings?

-Don-  Reno, NV

It won't be a software limit, the components just won't be able to handle it. Plug it into 480v and the first thing to go will be a fuse of some kind, but even if that fails or you bypass it there will be other stuff inside it that won't be rated for such a high voltage.

[DonTom]

It won't be a software limit, the components just won't be able to handle it. Plug it into 480v and the first thing to go will be a fuse of some kind, but even if that fails or you bypass it there will be other stuff inside it that won't be rated for such a high voltage.

I never said anything here was a software limit. I never mentioned the word "software" here, have I?

Not counting below . . .

Likewise, things designed for 120VAC max  will usually blow out at 240 VAC as the current and wattage will also double, making more destructive heat.  But there are ways for the design to prevent such (which can include software) which is quite common these days as many items are made for a world market today so 100 to 240 VAC input voltage is a common design these days. But if the maximum allowed  wattage will allow it, it can let the current double to get double the wattage output. Or else design to make sure that doesn't happen because the wattage cannot handle it (such as the 1.4 KW Zero OBCs).

-Don-   Reno, NV

[TheRan]

It won't be a software limit, the components just won't be able to handle it. Plug it into 480v and the first thing to go will be a fuse of some kind, but even if that fails or you bypass it there will be other stuff inside it that won't be rated for such a high voltage.

I never said anything here was a software limit. I never mentioned the word "software" here, have I?

I wasn't saying you did. If it was a software limit then it would be intentional but it's not, it's just not designed to handle higher voltages.

Likewise, things designed for 120VAC max  will usually blow out at 240 VAC as the current and wattage will also double, making more destructive heat.  But there are ways for the design to prevent such (which can include software) which is quite common these days as many items are made for a world market today so 100 to 240 VAC input voltage is a common design these days. But if the maximum allowed  wattage will allow it, it can let the current double to get double the wattage output. Or else design to make sure that doesn't happen because the wattage cannot handle it (such as the 1.4 KW Zero OBCs).

-Don-   Reno, NV

Sure, the Energica's max designed wattage output allows greater current draw at 240v versus 120v, Zero's max wattage doesn't. That's all it is, the only difference is the wattage output of the charger, nothing more. There's nothing special about the Energica charger, it has software controlling its output just like the Zero. That software is limiting its output on 120v, if it was safe to draw twice the current at that voltage then it would do so.

[DonTom]

There's nothing special about the Energica charger, it has software controlling its output just like the Zero. That software is limiting its output on 120v, if it was safe to draw twice the current at that voltage then it would do so.

I never said the Energica charger  was special. In fact, the Zero charger is more "special" because of the way it accepts any voltage for the same wattage by having the input current drop as the voltage raises. But yeah, that's how they design a low wattage charger to accept a higher voltage.

A higher wattage charger will let the input current increase as the voltage is increased, so there is more output wattage with the higher voltage than the lower voltage.

I don't understand how my simple true statement has caused so much confusion here.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[Crissa]

The Zero charger is just smaller.

Smaller in wattage, weight, size, and cost.

It's not special, as taking either input in is, as I pointed out, standard among consumer electronics.

-Crissa

[DonTom]

The Zero charger is just smaller.

Smaller in wattage, weight, size, and cost.

It's not special, as taking either input in is, as I pointed out, standard among consumer electronics.

-Crissa

Which I also pointed out. It is almost standard today because of a world market of different voltages. Back in the old days, almost any item (or perhaps every item) that would accept 120 VAC normally would be destroyed instantly by 240 VAC as the current and wattage would double and destroy it in seconds. It takes a "special" added circuit to prevent such, which is getting very common these days, but not many years ago.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[Crissa]

It takes a "special" added circuit to prevent such,

No, it does not.  It's not a 'special circuit' - it's literally in every computer that plugs in the wall.  Being able to accept these two steps of voltage does not require 'special' building because it already needs to create targeted, controlled voltage levels for the electronics and charging.

If it's in nearly everything, it's not special, is it?

It turns out that the coils needed to do one (and make it robust to deal with fluctuations) is the same as you need to do the other.

-Crissa

[NervEasy]

Let me join in this ridiculous discussion:

Switched Mode Power supply... This is what you guys are talking about.

They can be designed with a large "voltage in" spread. But there power rating is fixed (dictated by parts used, heat, ...) So that is what all electric vehicle chargers are, switched mode power supplies.

That is why they take the same time to charge with 110V in than with 220V in, they just get to their power rating by requiring less amps when on 220V or more amps when on 110V.

The reason the Energica chargers can charge faster with 220V in, is because if it would be doing the same thing on 110V it would require to much ampere to get the same power figure - watts as P= UxI - from the normal house powersocket and would trip breakers. So they limit it on 110V. If you would give it the amps it needs to reach the same power it can have on 220V it would do it no fuss as it is rated for this power.

[DonTom]

Let me join in this ridiculous discussion:

Switched Mode Power supply... This is what you guys are talking about.

I agree my simple statement as turned into something  ridiculous here.

Thanks for the name of the "special" circuit that does such! I am glad you joined in here!

It's really  simply a  characteristic  of a switching power supply.

IOW, the Zeros (except the SR/F) and the Harley LW uses switched mode chargers. The SR/F and my Enegica does NOT use such. They use LINEAR MODE. They use an external  transformer to go from 120 VAC to 240 VAC as 240 VAC is the only voltage the charger is designed for in the Energica and the SR/F.  But the Zero (non SR/F) and the LW use the Switched Mode chargers and can accept any voltage 90 to 250 VAC (IIRC) by switching modes which will drop the input current on higher voltages for the same output wattage very UNlike Linear Mode chargers.

If this doesn't clear it up, nothing will. And then I give up.

Thanks again for the name of the "special" circuit used. But perhaps not so "special" these days, for  around the last forty to fifty years. Switched Mode.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[Doug S]

Would it be possible for people to just let their computer mice cool down a bit? One of the main reasons I like the forum format rather than a social media format (e.g. Facebook) is because it's generally more information, less pissing war.

I feel like this thread (and a couple of others) have degenerated into "No, it's not like you said, it's this way!" and back again. It's tiresome, uninformative, and often inaccurate all around. A fairly simple and newbie question ("why can't I just plug the battery straight into the wall?") has become a mosh pit fight over some pretty irrelevant minutiae. Much of the discussion is incorrect and invalid, and all of it is pretty pointless and irrelevant.

Let's just back off a bit, okay?

[Crissa]

No matter what the input voltage is, Don, the charger is only rated for a certain wattage.  That's the limitation.  Neither has a 'special' anything.  The standard Zero charger is just smaller.  That's all.  It couldn't be 'just larger' or it would be larger and not fit in the space they gave it.

The power supply is not special or unique, it's required to create the voltage that the battery itself wants.  It would be there regardless of the input voltage, unless the station itself managed it (which is basically how DC quick charging stations work).

Doug's right, this is a pretty pointless argument.

-Crissa

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Well, it might result in a few links and sentences added to the unofficial manual, just to sort out peoples' thinking. But only because of the hyperlinks to external explanations worth citing.

[Richard230]

I would love to jump into a ridiculous discussion, or contribute to a thread creep, but I have no idea what you are talking about.   

[DonTom]

Doug's right, this is a pretty pointless argument.

What "argument"?   I may debate a subject, but I will try to not  argue anything.  IMO, there is a big difference between a debate and an argument.

I was considering not replying here any more a while back when i discovered we were not communicating all that well, and i see we still are not. So I give up here and I will not bring up the issue again. I am done with this thread.

-Don-  Reno, NV