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[shayan]

Is there a solution to engage the onboard charger along with the chargetank without having to plug it in separately?
I ask this as this could be useful if we plug into a station that can pump out more than 6kW. I guess some J1772 stations can give 7kW+ output.

-Shayan

[Auriga]

This is unlikely to happen because J1772 chargers signal how much current the bike can take. Even if you spliced in the onboard, you couldn't change the signaling.

[shayan]

Aah ok, somehow i thought that this could be made similar to how it worked with the previous version of the chargetank (it would engage the onboard charger by default without needing that to be connected separately).
I always assumed that the Charge Controller controlled the max power that it would pull based on the power rating of the station and the capability of the charger.

-Shayan

[Crissa]

I believe the Charge Tank already does this for itself?  It charges at the most it or the station can handle, whichever is lower.  I don't know that it can be augmented any further by the L1 stock charge controller or auxiliary chargers.

The old aux chargers and stock on-board L1 chargers don't talk to the station through the J-plug so you have to manage their input and use splitters.

-Crissa

[shayan]

I believe the Charge Tank already does this for itself?  It charges at the most it or the station can handle, whichever is lower.  I don't know that it can be augmented any further by the L1 stock charge controller or auxiliary chargers.

The old aux chargers and stock on-board L1 chargers don't talk to the station through the J-plug so you have to manage their input and use splitters.

-Crissa

From what i have seen, correct, it does charge at the min(6kW, <L2_station_power>). I was told previously that connecting the onboard L1 charger to another plug will augment the charge rate to ~7.3kW. But i was not sure if somehow both chargers could be used together with the same source. Right now i see no use of the onboard charger otherwise
I have a separate charger (much lighter and more versatile than the onboard charger) to connect to 110V and i can plug that in to the charge tank.

It would be good if its possible to, say, connect another 3.3kW diginow charger and have a double-J setup for a total of 9.3kW

-Shayan

[Crissa]

I can't say.  Wattage is a limitation of the coils and cables, so maybe?

But the Charge Tank needs to talk to the J-station to request the right voltage.  You could get an adapter for the L1 charger to talk to another L2 station... (That's basically how my Zero gets voltage from an L2.)  Maybe it's technically possible to make one that could steal some amps from the other connector, but it would be highly non-standard.  I would think that if it were easy to do, Zero would have added that side-path to use the additional wattage of the L1 charger.

-Crissa

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Zero in their communications has seemed pretty clear that these chargers aren't meant to work in parallel, unlike the earlier Charge Tank which made them run in parallel by design.

Just a few points to clarify to avoid confusion:
- The charge tank doesn't request a voltage. It can indicate what current it intends to draw, presumably having read the pilot signal from the J1772 or Type 2 station which indicates current.
- You could make or possibly buy a custom cable that split an extra outlet from a J1772 plug (Type 2 seems more sensible with more capacity), but the Charge Tank would be modulating only its own current draw to the pilot signal, and so 1.3kW + 6kW at least could in principle trip a 6.6kW station. Those stations often allow 7kW but higher demand might trigger a slow-trip setting.
- Some ChargePoint stations have had L2 and L1 inlets, but ChargePoint seems to be doing away with that, so I don't think this will be very common.
- J1772 adapters to the onboard charger inlet or similar plugs are available and Zero's pricing on this is now fair, so that's one route but still requires two plugs (if not two stations).
- The J pilot signal and switching power supply chargers like the Charge Tank are controlled by current supply and demand (A), not power (kW), which often explains varying power delivery from a plug. Especially if system voltage droops below 220V because of widespread load issues or bad equipment (like Blink Networks' chargers). Current-based control aims to ensure that the conductors in the cabling are not overheating.

[Crissa]

Well, without the base communications I don't believe the J-plug will provide any 250v at all.  Which is what I meant.

-Crissa

[shayan]

Zero in their communications has seemed pretty clear that these chargers aren't meant to work in parallel, unlike the earlier Charge Tank which made them run in parallel by design.

Just a few points to clarify to avoid confusion:
- The charge tank doesn't request a voltage. It can indicate what current it intends to draw, presumably having read the pilot signal from the J1772 or Type 2 station which indicates current.
- You could make or possibly buy a custom cable that split an extra outlet from a J1772 plug (Type 2 seems more sensible with more capacity), but the Charge Tank would be modulating only its own current draw to the pilot signal, and so 1.3kW + 6kW at least could in principle trip a 6.6kW station. Those stations often allow 7kW but higher demand might trigger a slow-trip setting.
- Some ChargePoint stations have had L2 and L1 inlets, but ChargePoint seems to be doing away with that, so I don't think this will be very common.
- J1772 adapters to the onboard charger inlet or similar plugs are available and Zero's pricing on this is now fair, so that's one route but still requires two plugs (if not two stations).
- The J pilot signal and switching power supply chargers like the Charge Tank are controlled by current supply and demand (A), not power (kW), which often explains varying power delivery from a plug. Especially if system voltage droops below 220V because of widespread load issues or bad equipment (like Blink Networks' chargers). Current-based control aims to ensure that the conductors in the cabling are not overheating.

So, seems like i will need to use 2 plugs as of now. A 1.3kW charger on a 6.6kW station is not an efficient usage of the station, so i'm just looking to optimize that.
Is the elcon HK-J 3.3kW charger a good option on the aux port with a Y cable to the onboard charger? Will i be able to get one of these preprogrammed for a Zero, without needing a separate CAN bus controller? If there's a reference video of an install that would be greatly helpful

-Shayan

[alpha1511]

Zero in their communications has seemed pretty clear that these chargers aren't meant to work in parallel, unlike the earlier Charge Tank which made them run in parallel by design.

Just a few points to clarify to avoid confusion:
- The charge tank doesn't request a voltage. It can indicate what current it intends to draw, presumably having read the pilot signal from the J1772 or Type 2 station which indicates current.
- You could make or possibly buy a custom cable that split an extra outlet from a J1772 plug (Type 2 seems more sensible with more capacity), but the Charge Tank would be modulating only its own current draw to the pilot signal, and so 1.3kW + 6kW at least could in principle trip a 6.6kW station. Those stations often allow 7kW but higher demand might trigger a slow-trip setting.
- Some ChargePoint stations have had L2 and L1 inlets, but ChargePoint seems to be doing away with that, so I don't think this will be very common.
- J1772 adapters to the onboard charger inlet or similar plugs are available and Zero's pricing on this is now fair, so that's one route but still requires two plugs (if not two stations).
- The J pilot signal and switching power supply chargers like the Charge Tank are controlled by current supply and demand (A), not power (kW), which often explains varying power delivery from a plug. Especially if system voltage droops below 220V because of widespread load issues or bad equipment (like Blink Networks' chargers). Current-based control aims to ensure that the conductors in the cabling are not overheating.

So, seems like i will need to use 2 plugs as of now. A 1.3kW charger on a 6.6kW station is not an efficient usage of the station, so i'm just looking to optimize that.
Is the elcon HK-J 3.3kW charger a good option on the aux port with a Y cable to the onboard charger? Will i be able to get one of these preprogrammed for a Zero, without needing a separate CAN bus controller? If there's a reference video of an install that would be greatly helpful

-Shayan

You can buy a HKJ3.3 kW that set to fit Zero battery by factory and with simple enable control. Therefore you don't need charger CAN controller. It's OK to use this setting since 3.3 + 1.2kW is unlikely to over wattage a L2 charging station.

我從使用 Tapatalk 的 SM-G970F 發送

[shayan]

Zero in their communications has seemed pretty clear that these chargers aren't meant to work in parallel, unlike the earlier Charge Tank which made them run in parallel by design.

Just a few points to clarify to avoid confusion:
- The charge tank doesn't request a voltage. It can indicate what current it intends to draw, presumably having read the pilot signal from the J1772 or Type 2 station which indicates current.
- You could make or possibly buy a custom cable that split an extra outlet from a J1772 plug (Type 2 seems more sensible with more capacity), but the Charge Tank would be modulating only its own current draw to the pilot signal, and so 1.3kW + 6kW at least could in principle trip a 6.6kW station. Those stations often allow 7kW but higher demand might trigger a slow-trip setting.
- Some ChargePoint stations have had L2 and L1 inlets, but ChargePoint seems to be doing away with that, so I don't think this will be very common.
- J1772 adapters to the onboard charger inlet or similar plugs are available and Zero's pricing on this is now fair, so that's one route but still requires two plugs (if not two stations).
- The J pilot signal and switching power supply chargers like the Charge Tank are controlled by current supply and demand (A), not power (kW), which often explains varying power delivery from a plug. Especially if system voltage droops below 220V because of widespread load issues or bad equipment (like Blink Networks' chargers). Current-based control aims to ensure that the conductors in the cabling are not overheating.

So, seems like i will need to use 2 plugs as of now. A 1.3kW charger on a 6.6kW station is not an efficient usage of the station, so i'm just looking to optimize that.
Is the elcon HK-J 3.3kW charger a good option on the aux port with a Y cable to the onboard charger? Will i be able to get one of these preprogrammed for a Zero, without needing a separate CAN bus controller? If there's a reference video of an install that would be greatly helpful

-Shayan

You can buy a HKJ3.3 kW that set to fit Zero battery by factory and with simple enable control. Therefore you don't need charger CAN controller. It's OK to use this setting since 3.3 + 1.2kW is unlikely to over wattage a L2 charging station.

我從使用 Tapatalk 的 SM-G970F 發送

Cool, that should be a good enough setup for a total of 10.3kW including chargetank if it works and this might be pretty close to 1C rate i think. The other thing left to figure out would be the place to mount the charger on the bike.

-Shayan

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Just FYI once you’re charging faster than 6.6kW, there will be some potentially surprising interaction with the main battery pack, and any power tank attached adds some wrinkles.

I’m assuming you’ve already provided the basic programming of CC-CV programming where each charger operates at a constant current target until output bus voltage reaches a target where it tapers. All the chargers we’re discussing do this, and you mainly set target voltage and taper rate.

The interaction I’m alluding to has to do with using these to charge at higher C rates.
- For one, the battery will produce more heat, so mind keeping it in the shade if the weather is hot and sunny.
- Another issue is that a main battery pack and power tank might not charge at the same proportional rate, leading to one topping off faster than the other, which might open a contactor and stop charging early, and then you have to restart charging to balance the batteries to get them to pair up. This happens more when the batteries are from different cell generations (usually just different years).
- The SoC indication might drift a lot, too, depending on how repeatedly you charge. This varies and you might not see it at all, but basically if the SoC prediction algorithms get out of their normal patterns, it can happen.
- Mixing OEM chargers with third party chargers is mostly fine, but the chargers once tapering might shift load around a bit. I haven’t explored this very often, but dual J charging on ChargePoint where you get power graphs shows this happening and it can be weird. Usually I just shut off one plug remotely if that plug’s charger tapered itself to zero too fast.

So, mostly just keep an eye out, and probably the safe thing is to stop or reduce charging near 1C before topping off (80-85%, say) to get the most benefit and get back on the road. Try not to push the battery hard right to the top, basically, or be more careful when you do.

[shayan]

Just FYI once you’re charging faster than 6.6kW, there will be some potentially surprising interaction with the main battery pack, and any power tank attached adds some wrinkles.

I’m assuming you’ve already provided the basic programming of CC-CV programming where each charger operates at a constant current target until output bus voltage reaches a target where it tapers. All the chargers we’re discussing do this, and you mainly set target voltage and taper rate.

The interaction I’m alluding to has to do with using these to charge at higher C rates.
- For one, the battery will produce more heat, so mind keeping it in the shade if the weather is hot and sunny.
- Another issue is that a main battery pack and power tank might not charge at the same proportional rate, leading to one topping off faster than the other, which might open a contactor and stop charging early, and then you have to restart charging to balance the batteries to get them to pair up. This happens more when the batteries are from different cell generations (usually just different years).
- The SoC indication might drift a lot, too, depending on how repeatedly you charge. This varies and you might not see it at all, but basically if the SoC prediction algorithms get out of their normal patterns, it can happen.
- Mixing OEM chargers with third party chargers is mostly fine, but the chargers once tapering might shift load around a bit. I haven’t explored this very often, but dual J charging on ChargePoint where you get power graphs shows this happening and it can be weird. Usually I just shut off one plug remotely if that plug’s charger tapered itself to zero too fast.

So, mostly just keep an eye out, and probably the safe thing is to stop or reduce charging near 1C before topping off (80-85%, say) to get the most benefit and get back on the road. Try not to push the battery hard right to the top, basically, or be more careful when you do.

Thanks for the response Brian!
Maybe it is safer not to actually engage the onboard charger if using a 3rd party CC-CV based charger and just use the external charger through the aux charge port.
Also as i do not have a power tank the disproportional charge rate will not occur (right?).

So if i were to get one of those preprogrammed 3.3kW chargers, what would the typical pre-programming looks like in terms of when the constant current phase would occur and constant voltage would occur for the ZF13.0 pack?

I'm guessing that Elcon would ask for all this info if i were to place an order. Is it available somewhere on http://zeromanual.com/ ?

-Shayan

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

The 6kW charge tank plus the onboard isn’t what I meant, exactly, but if you have a 7.2kWh long brick only, then yes it would absolutely be. More like 9kW and higher for a full monolith.

It’s C-rate anyway so I mean 0.7C or so. Maybe 0.8. It’s about the fraction of total current the battery allows, not the absolute quantity.

For programming a charger via Elcon, the unofficial manual covers the voltage range of the battery which is sufficient. Mainly the 116.4V limit, or 116.2V for a nicer taper. The lower limit is important, but is more like a safety cutoff to avoid charging too low a battery. The taper rate can often be programmed, but it’s a subtler setting. You can always just send them a description of the cell chemistry and the pack capacity and they’ll probably leave the default in or adjust it reasonably.