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Author Topic: I guess it’s official...bigger batteries  (Read 4081 times)

SBK74

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Re: I guess it’s official...bigger batteries
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2019, 01:17:21 PM »

Energica have kept DC speeds safe. My guess: max charge rate around 27 kW ( claimed 82% faster than competition) and 80% in 40 minutes, which make around 22kW average. It could be that they keep some slack for warm conditions, where the old Eva tapered charge rate.
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MVetter

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Re: I guess it’s official...bigger batteries
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2019, 02:00:44 PM »

80 amp request at a voltage between ~290-340. Tends to be around 26kW. Booyah
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Richard230

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Re: I guess it’s official...bigger batteries
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2019, 09:13:16 PM »

Speaking of tapering charging: I was watching my Kill A Watt meter the other day as my 2018 Zero S with PT was charging with its on-board charger and it didn't taper off when the charging ended.  The amps were increasing slightly as the SOC increased, until it almost hit 12 amps, at 100% SOC. After staying at 100%, for about 10 minutes, the charger suddenly cut off and dropped to 5 watts. No tapering. So I have no idea when the cell balancing occurred, unless the bike decided that the cells were already balanced and there was no need to perform that step during the charging procedure.  ???  My 2014 Zero S with PT would taper the charge for about 15 minutes to around 250 watts before shutting off.

Of course I understand that the Energica fast-charge system is much different and likely tapers the charge more for battery life than for balancing.
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

NEW2elec

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Re: I guess it’s official...bigger batteries
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2019, 09:44:27 PM »

Hey Richard same charging pattern with my 13 and 17 Brian Rice says it's all good.  :)

But how do you feel about the bigger battery?  Will there be a test ride in your future?
I love my Zeros and still ride and enjoy my 13 but for you guys in CA with all the DC charging it really does open up a whole new world of long weekend rides and highway commutes without having to baby the throttle.

Energica has done a great job and now we'll see if the others can match or beat it.

If they had an Atlanta dealership I'd love to test ride one.  (Hint Hint)  Big money on the north side and never a whole month that you can't ride.
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protomech

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I guess it’s official...bigger batteries
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2019, 09:46:07 PM »

The absolute charge rate is down, both in terms of C rate and miles per minute. 2019 could charge 0-85% in 20 minutes at  26 kW, about 3 highway miles per minute charging.

2020 Energica+ charges 0-80% in 40 minutes - presumably at around 20 kW, or a bit over 2 highway miles per minute. Energica models prior to 2019 also charged at about this rate. Perhaps Energica will validate higher charge rates in time.

The situation feels very similar to the Hyundai Ioniq Electric - newer version has a ~35% larger battery but charges almost half the speed as 2019.
My 2020 SS9  charges at (up to) 26KW. But I guess they mean the actual year, not what they call the model year.

But I cannot make any sense out of why a larger battery will only accept a lower charge rate. But your numbers don't seem to add up, 20 KW charging should not take more than twice as long as a 26 KW charge. But if it only charges at 12KW, Energica can keep their new battery, I won't want it.

BTW, the new charge times you're saying seems to match the Harley Livewire.

-Don-  Reno, NV

Energica refers to the new bikes as model year 2020. But you’re right, I’ve seen 2020 used to refer to bikes sold this year as well.

The average charge rate (C-rate) is halved, Energica claims 0-80% in 40 minutes (1.2C, ish). The previous bike claimed 0-85% in 20 minutes (2.55C, ish). In terms of actual miles gained per minute to mostly full, the old bike charges faster.

Assuming the charge curve is similar, that’s 26 kW x 160% battery capacity x ~45% c-rate = 18-20 kW.

But that’s a lot of assumptions without actually seeing the charge curve. My guess is it looks something like this:

10 minutes: old 35 miles, new 30 miles
20 minutes: old 60 miles, new 55 miles
40 minutes: old 70 miles (full), new 90 miles
60 minutes: old 70 miles (full), new 112 miles (full)

And yes, the new bike has similar C-rate to the Livewire, but the Livewire seems to be less efficient and has a smaller battery. It adds ~55 highway miles in 40 minutes.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 10:00:40 PM by protomech »
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DonTom

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Re: I guess it’s official...bigger batteries
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2019, 09:49:37 PM »

The amps were increasing slightly as the SOC increased, until it almost hit 12 amps, at 100% SOC. After staying at 100%, for about 10 minutes, the charger suddenly cut off and dropped to 5 watts. No tapering.
The SOC indication may not mean much. 100% SOC is not always where fully charged, especially if the green charging indicator LED  is still blinking instead of on solid. Or if the contactor has not yet opened.

Perhaps the sudden drop is when the charger switched from CC to CV.

-Don-  Reno, NV
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wavelet

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Re: I guess it’s official...bigger batteries
« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2019, 09:51:43 PM »

Really good new re the battery...
That said, personally, I'm disappointed they now have 3 naked models, but  no additional faired model except the Ego/Ego+ (and IME, adding a windshield to a naked bike is a poor substitute for a proper fairing -- even cockpit-only or quarter-fairing -- in terms of wind protection & fatigue over more-than-commuting distances.)

Re the price, on the international (Europe?) site, the difference between Ego & Ego+ or Eva EsseEsse9+ and Eva EsseEsse9 is ~4500 Euros (*); that seems pretty reasonable  to me.

Has anyone seen explicit drivetrain warranty info or weight specs info?

(*)oddly, the site says these are prices exclusive of VAT, which AFAIK is illegal in the EU for consumer-facing price info.
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DonTom

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Re: I guess it’s official...bigger batteries
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2019, 10:04:29 PM »

Energica refers to the new bikes as model year 2020. But you’re right, I’ve seen 2020 used to refer to bikes sold this year as well.

The charge rate (C-rate) is halved, Energica claims 0-80% in 40 minutes (1.2C, ish). The previous bike claimed 0-85% in 20 minutes (2.55C, ish). In terms of actual miles gained per minute to mostly full, the old bike charges faster.

Assuming the charge curve is similar, that’s 26 kW x 160% battery capacity x ~0.45% c-rate = 18-20 kW.

But that’s a lot of assumptions without actually seeing the charge curve. My guess is it looks something like this:

10 minutes: old 35 miles, new 30 miles
20 minutes: old 60 miles, new 55 miles
40 minutes: old 70 miles (full), new 90 miles
60 minutes: old 70 miles (full), new 112 miles (full)

And yes, the new bike has similar C-rate to the Livewire, but the Livewire seems to be less efficient and has a smaller battery. It adds ~55 highway miles in 40 minutes.
80% in 40 minutes on a battery almost twice the size of mine isn't all that bad, but I would expect a larger battery to allow more KWs of charging, not less.


-Don-  Reno, NV
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Richard230

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Re: I guess it’s official...bigger batteries
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2019, 12:21:47 AM »

The amps were increasing slightly as the SOC increased, until it almost hit 12 amps, at 100% SOC. After staying at 100%, for about 10 minutes, the charger suddenly cut off and dropped to 5 watts. No tapering.
The SOC indication may not mean much. 100% SOC is not always where fully charged, especially if the green charging indicator LED  is still blinking instead of on solid. Or if the contactor has not yet opened.

Perhaps the sudden drop is when the charger switched from CC to CV.

-Don-  Reno, NV

The green charging light goes solid as soon as the charger cuts power and goes into sleep mode (or whatever it does). 

The problem that I have with fast charging is that I am too cheap to pay for it and don't want to wait more than about 5 minutes before I get antsy and want to get on my bike and go riding again.  So a larger battery pack is what I want, but the Energica's 600+ pounds is just too much for me to handle at my age.  Anything over about 450 pounds is becoming a struggle for me to push around my garage and up my driveway.
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DonTom

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Re: I guess it’s official...bigger batteries
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2019, 12:48:12 AM »

  So a larger battery pack is what I want, but the Energica's 600+ pounds is just too much for me to handle at my age.  Anything over about 450 pounds is becoming a struggle for me to push around my garage and up my driveway.
Even with a reverse and slow forward as the Energicas all have?

Otherwise, I know what you mean. I wish my 1,000 lbs Harley had a reverse! But at least it is VERY easy to get on the (adjustable) centerstand. Harley does know how to do at least some things right.

-Don- Reno, NV
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MVetter

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Re: I guess it’s official...bigger batteries
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2019, 12:56:02 AM »

They not only massively increased the range with this new model, but they cut the weight. I’m expecting the low 500s but it’s not official yet. Also we’re still waiting on finalization of US prices.
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boardwalk

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Re: I guess it’s official...bigger batteries
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2019, 01:20:30 AM »

If they can get it to ~530 lbs like a 5% decrease (from ~570 for the EsseEsse9, I've read) implies, that's really much better and a stone's throw (not literally) from a Premium SR/F. I'm curious why Energica is seemingly cagey with weight -- just because it looks bad? 'Cause they don't have it listed under dimensions on their page. It's a single weight too, no dry weight/wet weight/what kind of wet weight confusion to be had.
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Richard230

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Re: I guess it’s official...bigger batteries
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2019, 02:55:25 AM »

If they can get it to ~530 lbs like a 5% decrease (from ~570 for the EsseEsse9, I've read) implies, that's really much better and a stone's throw (not literally) from a Premium SR/F. I'm curious why Energica is seemingly cagey with weight -- just because it looks bad? 'Cause they don't have it listed under dimensions on their page. It's a single weight too, no dry weight/wet weight/what kind of wet weight confusion to be had.

Energica has never listed weight as near as I can tell. I have four full-color brochures, one of which is many pages long and goes through every feature of their bikes, including a ton of specifications.  But not a single peep about weight.  However, I have read in a couple of written reviews that all of their models weigh over 600 pounds.  I assume that the reviewers weighed the bike on their own scales.  ???
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dittoalex

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Re: I guess it’s official...bigger batteries
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2019, 03:23:18 AM »

2019 Energica Ego weighs 645 lbs https://youtu.be/IZrHkzNlnRg?t=317
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