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[Demoni]

...A battery twice the size  means wait twice as long for it to charge...
-Don-  Reno, NV

Don so that's technically not true...

Max charge rate is based around the specified charge rate of the cells used and the capacity of the pack.

Let's say the cells used can be charged at 2c  (that's a charge rate 2x the capacity of the total pack).
A 10kWh pack would be able to charge at a rate of 20kWh (2*10), at 20kWh a 10kWh pack would be recharged in 30 minutes
A 20kWh pack would be able to charge at a rate of  40kWh (2*20), at 40kWh a 20kWh pack would also be recharged in 30 minutes.

*The above is a generalization and assumes the cells are the same and that packs do not charge slower from 0-10 and 90-100%.

[DonTom]

Don so that's technically not true...

Max charge rate is based around the specified charge rate of the cells used and the capacity of the pack.

Of course, I was talking about the same charge rate with each.  IOW, only the battery is changed,  not the charger. They don't always go together. Take the HD LW for an example. It has a larger battery than my SS9 but a smaller charger. So with the LW, the wait is  a lot  longer than my SS9 for a full charge. Also the HD won't get the same MPH of charge.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[wavelet]

I do hope Energica will upgrade the packs soon -- they seem the most polished and detail-oriented of the current vendors (e.g., parking brake, reverse/forward crawl mode, CCS), with the tw omain issues being range and weight.

What parking brake?

It's my understanding that on Energicas (have yet to see one in the flesh), engaging the sidestand also automatically mechanically engages the rear disc brake, which I thought was a nice idea. Maybe it's not on all models?

BTW, to me the size of the battery pack is rather meaningless as long as I am within range of CCS charging.  A battery twice the size  means wait twice as long for it to charge--but at half as many stops. Comes out near the same either way.

Problem is, CCS charging is mostly available on major freeways, and likely to remain that way since DC chargers are expensive and need lots of through traffic to justify them.
When riding day trips (sport-touring's my preferred style), I tend to avoid highways completely, except if necessary to get to the good bits (what we call here "administrative riding"  ).
I live in the middle of a dense urban area; a typical 300-400mi day ride for me consists of probably 100-200mi on freeways, with the rest on small backroads, mostly without even gasoline stations. Range is a big issue, and the max reasonable charging stops on such a day is two short 30min  ones, plus one longer ~1hr one during lunch.

[DonTom]

It's my understanding that on Energicas (have yet to see one in the flesh), engaging the sidestand also automatically mechanically engages the rear disc brake, which I thought was a nice idea. Maybe it's not on all models?

Not  on my 2020 Energica Eva EsseEsse9.  I cannot speak for the others.

Problem is, CCS charging is mostly available on major freeways, and likely to remain that way since DC chargers are expensive and need lots of through traffic to justify them.

Did you realize that CCS vehicles can also use J1772 AC  (@ 3KW on my SS9, but 25 KW on DC CCS)?

When riding day trips (sport-touring's my preferred style), I tend to avoid highways completely, except if necessary to get to the good bits (what we call here "administrative riding"  ).

I prefer my SS9 when on the freeway a lot and my Zeros when not.  The SS9 is a great bike to get me between here in Reno and my house in Auburn, CA. There are MANY CCS chargers on the way (A few J1772's also).

I live in the middle of a dense urban area; a typical 300-400mi day ride for me consists of probably 100-200mi on freeways, with the rest on small backroads, mostly without even gasoline stations. Range is a big issue, and the max reasonable charging stops on such a day is two short 30min  ones, plus one longer ~1hr one during lunch.

Sounds like a Moto Guzzi Stelvio day. It has an 8.5 gallon  fuel tank and is good for around 400 miles on a tank.

-Don-   Reno, NV

[JaimeC]

That "sidestand engaging the parking brake" feature is on BMW's scooters (gas and electric).  They MAY have a patent on that idea.

[wavelet]

That "sidestand engaging the parking brake" feature is on BMW's scooters (gas and electric).  They MAY have a patent on that idea.

Huh, could have sworn I read a review of an Energica which mentioned this, but I could be mistaken.

EDIT: Aha, found it here, but that was a prototype Ego 5 years ago, and looks like the parking brake didn't make it into the final bike. Sorry for the confusion.

[flar]

...A battery twice the size  means wait twice as long for it to charge...
-Don-  Reno, NV

Don so that's technically not true...

Max charge rate is based around the specified charge rate of the cells used and the capacity of the pack.

Let's say the cells used can be charged at 2c  (that's a charge rate 2x the capacity of the total pack).
A 10kWh pack would be able to charge at a rate of 20kWh (2*10), at 20kWh a 10kWh pack would be recharged in 30 minutes
A 20kWh pack would be able to charge at a rate of  40kWh (2*20), at 40kWh a 20kWh pack would also be recharged in 30 minutes.

*The above is a generalization and assumes the cells are the same and that packs do not charge slower from 0-10 and 90-100%.

Charge rates are measured in kW, not kWh.

[flar]

Don so that's technically not true...

Max charge rate is based around the specified charge rate of the cells used and the capacity of the pack.

Of course, I was talking about the same charge rate with each.  IOW, only the battery is changed,  not the charger. They don't always go together. Take the HD LW for an example. It has a larger battery than my SS9 but a smaller charger. So with the LW, the wait is  a lot  longer than my SS9 for a full charge. Also the HD won't get the same MPH of charge.

-Don-  Reno, NV

For L2 charging, the size of the onboard charger determines the charge rate.
For L3 charging, the power put out by the external L3 charger determines the maximum available charge rate.

L2 charging is just AC which must be run through the vehicle's on-board charger to get the DC needed to charge the batteries.
L3 charging is DC from the plug which means the the on-board charger is bypassed and has no impact on how fast the battery can charge. The factors that affect L3 charging are the power output of the charging station, and the power handling capability of the battery manager (not the charger) and the design of the batteries. It is possible for an EV to be limited by the power circuitry on L3 charging, but it won't be limited by the charger itself.

Pretty much the weakest L3 charger will put out at least 50kW and should be able to charge a 10 or 20kWh battery in half an hour easily, but that's assuming the manufacturer didn't skimp on the power distribution circuits.

[flar]

Don so that's technically not true...

Max charge rate is based around the specified charge rate of the cells used and the capacity of the pack.

Of course, I was talking about the same charge rate with each.  IOW, only the battery is changed,  not the charger. They don't always go together. Take the HD LW for an example. It has a larger battery than my SS9 but a smaller charger. So with the LW, the wait is  a lot  longer than my SS9 for a full charge. Also the HD won't get the same MPH of charge.

-Don-  Reno, NV

Looking at the CCS charge rates on the SS9 and the LW, they don't add up.

Energica claims 85% of an 11.7kWh battery at 24 kW in 20 minutes. But a 24kW charger can only deliver 8kWh in 20 minutes which is less than 70% of the battery capacity. Has anyone actually gotten 85% on an SS9 in 20 minutes?

[ultrarnr]

Except most CCS chargers are 50 kw or greater, not 24 kw.

[DonTom]

Except most CCS chargers are 50 kw or greater, not 24 kw.

But the Energica can only accept 25 KW max.  But that can still mean a 11.7 KWH battery could be up to full in less than 30 minutes, except for the fact that the charging current must  drop  lower near the full end, so they spec at 85% in 20 minutes. Seems like that could be close enough to claim 20 minutes to 85%, but could be a few minutes off.

BTW, Livewire chargers (which I have used here at the Reno Harley dealer) can only do 15 KW. That means my Energica will charge faster on a HD charger than will the Livewire which can only accept 12 KW.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[DonTom]

For L3 charging, the power put out by the external L3 charger determines the maximum available charge rate.

The HD LW has a larger battery than my SS9, but nothing near twice the size. The HD LW takes exacty twice as long to charge on the same CCS charger as my SS9.  Why?

-Don-  Reno, NV

[BigPoppa]

Looking at the CCS charge rates on the SS9 and the LW, they don't add up.

Energica claims 85% of an 11.7kWh battery at 24 kW in 20 minutes. But a 24kW charger can only deliver 8kWh in 20 minutes which is less than 70% of the battery capacity. Has anyone actually gotten 85% on an SS9 in 20 minutes?

The few times I've used DC charging it has taken 30 minutes to go from the low teens to 95% (my current SOC limit setting).

[DonTom]

The few times I've used DC charging it has taken 30 minutes to go from the low teens to 95% (my current SOC limit setting).

And that last 10 of your SOC  gain perhaps took  more than ten of those minutes.

I use CCS fairly often, since it's so common between here and Auburn, but I never bothered to time it. I used to charge to 100%, but I recently lowered it to 85%, so next time I will time it. However, I never get near zero SOC, I get too much range anxiety for that.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[BigPoppa]

You're probably right. My faulty memory seems to recall about 20 minutes to reach 80% or so from the low teens.