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[DonTom]

I've got 600 mile service scheduled for 8/12 for my SR/F.  I'll see if I can watch (planning on waiting for it anyway).  I'm at 1300 miles (oops).

Steve

I am at around  7,700 miles on both of my Zero bikes and never had it done. So a much bigger oops!

The Zero shop here in Reno (EuroCycles) has no idea how it is done. 

I cannot even get my FW updated, which is many versions behind.

The Zero name must mean the service. At least here in Reno.

OTOH, both of my bikes run as well as they did the day I purchased them.

But I will try to get this stuff done soon at Elk Grove Power Sports, but they are less convenient for me.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[alko]

But.. I dont understand why it cant figure this out dynamically and periodically update itself.

That and why does it drift?
I can understand the precision to which the calibration must be made but being this is electronics, why does it change overtime? What wears out or moves to cause the need to re calibrate?
This sounds a lot like the old ignition systems on ICE vehicles in days of yore, where you had to use a timing light to adjust the spark to near top dead center as the ignition points wore out.

Just bizarre

I agree. I've never heard of an electric motor needing anything more than brush replacement, but this is a brushless motor so what else is there? Never had my vacuum cleaner motor recommissioned either.😅

[DonTom]

I agree. I've never heard of an electric motor needing anything more than brush replacement, but this is a brushless motor so what else is there? Never had my vacuum cleaner motor recommissioned either.

Perhaps it is NOT the motor that changes, but the PWM--such as the timing circuit shown here, where the timing capacitor can change value in time as it ages.

IOW, the motor wants to see the exact same PWM signal it had from the factory, which can change and effect performance and efficiency.

Now that I have said that, I am no expert on this EV motor stuff, this is just a wild guess.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[NetPro]

As explained by Shadow in a different thread:

"Permanent magnets are not all identical (that is much more expensive material science and manufacturing yields), and can change properties when heat cycled. Some change is expected in the first 600mi and then none or very little change thereafter. The periodic commissioning can highlight problems like dirt and broken or shifted encoder magnets."

So, we have heat to blame for the slight drift that may occur with this calibration. Makes sense but I bet someday, they'll design it so it can auto-sense the deviation and compensate on its own.

[Richard230]

As explained by Shadow in a different thread:

"Permanent magnets are not all identical (that is much more expensive material science and manufacturing yields), and can change properties when heat cycled. Some change is expected in the first 600mi and then none or very little change thereafter. The periodic commissioning can highlight problems like dirt and broken or shifted encoder magnets."

So, we have heat to blame for the slight drift that may occur with this calibration. Makes sense but I bet someday, they'll design it so it can auto-sense the deviation and compensate on its own.

I thought Zero did this for the 2012 models? That year they had the "glitch" that would result when the motor and controller would get out of "sync" and cause the bike to suddenly vibrate and the power to shut down while you were riding.  To solve this problem it was my understanding that Zero had a recall that updated the firmware so that the controller would automatically synchronize the encoders and the controller. I know that my bike was reprogrammed by my dealer (or was it the factory, I think they might have picked it up at my home?) and I never had the "glitch" after that was done.  Of course that was a completely different motor than the 2013 and up versions.

[DonTom]

As explained by Shadow in a different thread:

"Permanent magnets are not all identical (that is much more expensive material science and manufacturing yields), and can change properties when heat cycled. Some change is expected in the first 600mi and then none or very little change thereafter. The periodic commissioning can highlight problems like dirt and broken or shifted encoder magnets."

So, we have heat to blame for the slight drift that may occur with this calibration. Makes sense but I bet someday, they'll design it so it can auto-sense the deviation and compensate on its own.

I would assume either  the waveform  timing or motor (or both) can cause the out of sync problem. They have to be in sync either way.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[Crilly]

All the 3 phase controlled motors with encoders I use to build machines sink them selves.

[stargazerinwg]

I had my 2017 FX (which I bought new in April of this year) recommissioned at about 700 miles.  The dealer didn't charge me anything for it because we included it in the purchase.  It took a little more than an hour and he also updated the firmware.  I didn't get to watch, but I could hear the motor running and the wheel spinning while he was doing the procedure.  I can not notice any difference from before and after ...

[kashography]

I'm at 12'000 miles on my 2016 SR and have never done it. I'll check with my dealer what he suggests

[Doug S]

I'm over 48,000 on my 2014 SR and to my knowledge, it's never been done. It's possible the dealer sneaked it in on me, but I doubt it -- in addition to never charging me for it, early on, I was educating him about the bike more than the other way around.

I suspect it's very non-critical, and I'm guessing maybe only needs to be done once, at 600 miles. I doubt it's a matter of anything wearing (there's nothing to wear except the bearings, which won't affect anything timing-wise). It's probably more a matter of things taking a final seat, epoxy fully setting, that sort of thing.

[DonTom]

I'm over 48,000 on my 2014 SR and to my knowledge, it's never been done. It's possible the dealer sneaked it in on me, but I doubt it -- in addition to never charging me for it, early on, I was educating him about the bike more than the other way around.

I suspect it's very non-critical, and I'm guessing maybe only needs to be done once, at 600 miles. I doubt it's a matter of anything wearing (there's nothing to wear except the bearings, which won't affect anything timing-wise). It's probably more a matter of things taking a final seat, epoxy fully setting, that sort of thing.

Be sure that your regen is always working normally. That is often the very first sign of it going way out of spec on the commissioning. If you loose all regen, do NOT ride the bike anymore.  Be towed home or to the closest Zero dealer!  And explain to the dealer without the key in the bike! It can be that dangerous!

What can happen is that the bike takes over the control and goes any speed it wants and the kill switch may not even work! You will not be able to slow down by the throttle (the key will still work to shut down the bike).

How do I know this?  I  was the one to have Shadow's bike towed when it happened to him in Reno, NV.  He says the bike tried to kill him, but he was able to turn off the key before an accident. The key can work when the kill switch has no effect, as the kill switch works by data. When  the motor is this far out , it may not even respond to the kill switch.

His very first symptom was when he lost all of his regen, a day or so before, while the bike was still running  well. So consider a loss of regen as a very serious safety issue.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Electric Cowboy]

If you ride hard, recommissioning is very important. There is a device that deals with motor position called an encoder. This can shift. You will lose or gain power from this.

I recently recommissioned a motor that would have killed the rider if he went over 110 mph. It immediately shot up to 160mph even with the kill switch hit.

I know it may not make sense to you, but I have witnessed the reason to have a properly commissioned motor in person. I had never even seen this at the race track. After testing this guys stock settings with a higher max RPM I now require safety checks for every change made during tuning.

Don't shrug it off, and for the love of God, don't do it yourself

Oh, also, after recommissioning, the bike now has a top speed in the 120s and some sweet sweet regen and power.

I mention it in this video :

[domingo3]

What can happen is that the bike takes over the control and goes any speed it wants and the kill switch may not even work! You will not be able to slow down by the throttle (the key will still work to shut down the bike).

How do I know this?  I  was the one to have Shadow's bike towed when it happened to him in Reno, NV.  He says the bike tried to kill him, but he was able to turn off the key before an accident. The key can work when the kill switch has no effect, as the kill switch works by data. When  the motor is this far out , it may not even respond to the kill switch.

His very first symptom was when he lost all of his regen, a day or so before, while the bike was still running  well. So consider a loss of regen as a very serious safety issue.

Very good to know!  I will try to adjust my anticipated reaction to turning the key rather than hitting the kill switch in the case of unexpected throttle response.

For what it's worth, my previous bike had rare intermittent cases where I lost regen, but it came back on its own minutes later or after a power cycle at the latest.   That bike went through three different motors due to other issues and was eventually bought back by Zero because they couldn't identify the problem.  I didn't put much thought into the loss of regen at the time and don't think I even mentioned that to the dealers or Zero as a symptom.  I would think/hope that if it was simply due to motor commissioning that Zero would have diagnosed it.

 Now I'll definitely pay attention if I notice loss of regen on my new bike.

[NetPro]

I think Shadow fed the gremlins after midnight and they were just having fun reprogramming his bike while he was dreaming about something nice.
Seriously now, this happened with a model several years old. Wonder if the current crop of bikes have somewhat evolved a bit and have some improved design or safety measures in place to avoid this from still happening.

[DonTom]

I recently recommissioned a motor that would have killed the rider if he went over 110 mph. It immediately shot up to 160mph even with the kill switch hit.

Doesn't that require access to the Zero dealer website? If not, how were you able to get the software to do such a job?

BTW, do You still plan on being in Elk Grove this Saturday?  I look forward to meeting you.

-Don-  Auburn, CA