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[Richard230]

I also heard from a Zero employee years ago that there would have been  a substantial development and manufacturing cost to install a clutch and transmission in their bikes, as there was nothing suitable to buy off-the-shelf. They were also concerned regarding the likelihood of more complexity that might end up being a reliability and servicing issue for customers (and Zero) in the future.  KISS

Brammo selected a 6-speed transmission for their bikes as they found one available from a manufacturer in Italy, apparently at a reasonable price. However, I do note that Brammo owners are starting to have issues with various minor problems with their transmissions, such as leaking seals, that are not easy to resolve now that no one is selling or servicing their bikes anymore. And I am not even sure if the company that made the Brammo transmission is still in business. 

So I think Zero went the right way with their design. Keep things as simple as possible and don't put all of your eggs into one vendor's basket.

[NEW2elec]

Having gears could find a place in the electric bike world, but maybe just 2 or 3 rather than 5. It would provide some product differentiation and potentially longer range.

I've been wondering about that last aspect... Are you familiar with the relevant considerations?
I know torque curves for electric motors are very different than ICE's, but they're still not completely flat over the entire range. I thought maybe a lowish-power + high-geared mode might still be worth it for highish-speed motorway cruising, energy wise, like what used to be called an "overdrive" gear on cars.

After all, with current tech, electric bikes already have completely sufficient range for most commutes, and the primary missing piece is no-acceleration high speed riding.

I've been thinking about it too.
For quite some time in fact.  I started with the idea of a liquid filled, clutching, regular transmission was not an option and thought about it from there.
I wanted a simple two gear ratio setup.  I simply saw the old gear offerings from Zero, one for higher torque and the other for higher speed, and said YES.
Now there may be a system that could engauge one ratio and release the other at high speed without a clutch but I'm not aware of it.

So I've thought of going very simple but higher cost by using two different motors with two different gear ratios on either side of the rear wheel.  IOW the high torque setup on the rear left with a top speed of 70MPH (switching over to the other motor at 55MPH under normal riding) and the second motor geared on the right side of the rear wheel for 55 to a new higher top speed.

The MBB could be programed to switch the power from motor to motor at the desired speed "shift".

I think you could have a few benefits to balance out the cost of a second motor.  (I feel electric motor costs will drop greatly as volume numbers spike.)
First you simply have two drive systems so your far less likely to get stuck in the middle of no where which is always good.  Break one belt?  Turn on your override and the bike stays on the one good motor.

The next is heat management.  Only one motor is getting power at a time but both are getting air flow it's cooling one while the other works.   Again if one does reach a thermal cut back it could switch over to other motor until it cools.
 
The last is the range increase at highway speed from the high speed gearing needing less RPMs at speed.

Ok go ahead and tell me why this dosen''t work, I can take it. 

[caza]

The two motor ideas is novel, and maybe would work in a smaller ebike.

Problem with trying to do it with a model like the SR is that those motors are huge and heavy. You can't fit two motors in the same space without greatly sacrificing how powerful it is. You're talking literally cutting the motor in half.

They would need to be perfectly aligned with each other so the belt moves properly on both sides.

Since there's still no clutch and they're both direct drive, the motor not being used would have to still be spinning in line with the motor being used. Left motor is spinning the wheel with is spinning the right motor. Not particularly good for either motors, plus it would create a lot of drag. You feel the resistance when you push your zero even though it's off? It doesn't spin freely.

Then you have two belts, more weight, and you would have to mount the disk break on the same side as a belt which has its own host of issues.

Personally I don't miss gears on my zero. It does everything I need it to do. The minor difference in gear ratios is not worth the complexity, cost, or weight added.

[DonTom]

Personally I don't miss gears on my zero. It does everything I need it to do. The minor difference in gear ratios is not worth the complexity, cost, or weight added.

The wide torque range with no shifting is one of the main reasons I like EVs.

One practical reason is how we can use a cruise control in the mountains with no shifting back and forth. Between here in Auburn, I often use the cruise control in my Tesla. I would NEVER try to use it in any of my ICE vehicles on this same trip. It is also bad for the transmission. The transmission that we don't even have in our EVs.

I would never even consider an EV that has a clutch.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[JaimeC]

True dat.  Unnecessary complication.  Consider the Lightning LS-218 hit over 200 mph at Bonneville with a single gear, and the MotoE bikes currently racing in Grand Prix all have a single gear with no clutch and you quickly realize a clutch and transmission in an EV is a marketing gimmick and nothing more.

[DonTom]

True dat.  Unnecessary complication.  Consider the Lightning LS-218 hit over 200 mph at Bonneville with a single gear, and the MotoE bikes currently racing in Grand Prix all have a single gear with no clutch and you quickly realize a clutch and transmission in an EV is a marketing gimmick and nothing more.

That's also how I feel about my Harley. Why does it have six gears? Because of marketing as most Americans think "more is better".

It needs perhaps three gears since it has all that torque, six is a waste of time on that bike. Just more unnecessary shifting.

My 1971 BMW only has four gears  and that is all it needs. Even it could get by with three gears as there have been times then I was in 3rd thinking it was fourth  while on the freeway even on that small bike.

IMO, they should go for less gears, not more, as having more gears, IMO, is just a way of saying it has a low RPM range for the torque.

Only with the smaller bikes without a lot of  torque and power is where it is true the more gears the better. Such as my DR200SE and Kaw 650.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[wavelet]

True dat.  Unnecessary complication.  Consider the Lightning LS-218 hit over 200 mph at Bonneville with a single gear, and the MotoE bikes currently racing in Grand Prix all have a single gear with no clutch and you quickly realize a clutch and transmission in an EV is a marketing gimmick and nothing more.

(Aside: Yes, but the LS-218 wasn't "stock" for that run; unlike what Lightning likes to claim, it wasn't anything like a production bike, even if the LS-218 was a production bike in the first place, which it ain't. IIRC, for that Bonneville run they had special high-speed gearing, a streamlined surround fairing, and replaced various other parts with CF.)

That said, I certainly understand the advantages of KISS for reliaiblity, and "(almost) no fluids and no oiling the chain" is a big attraction maintenance-wise.
I was surprised to hear that Energicas have both oil- and coolant-based cooling systems (apparently for the motor & ECU/inverter respectively), that both need replacing at fixed intervals -- looks like an unnecessary complication.

So, re the gearbox I was just trying to educate myself on the potential (or not) advantages of gears on an e-motorcycle.
It's actually nice that on an e-bike you can have a system like the Energicas' Parking Assist without a gearbox -- basically, a very slow forward/reverse creep mode  (I expect they simply run the motor in reverse, and use very low amperage).

Can you tell I'm impatient for a reasonable-weight and -price e-bike to be capable of ~180mi @ 80mph? Until that happens, they're not relevant for me personally 

Thanks Bill822 and everyone else for their thoughts.

[DonTom]

I was surprised to hear that Energicas have both oil- and coolant-based cooling systems (apparently for the motor & ECU/inverter respectively), that both need replacing at fixed intervals -- looks like an unnecessary complication.

I don't think so.  In my Zero bikes, as it gets very hot from climbing up lots of hills, the power drops down enough to easily notice. The Energicas are more into performance so they need more than air cooling, to help prevent such from happening.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[wavelet]

I was surprised to hear that Energicas have both oil- and coolant-based cooling systems (apparently for the motor & ECU/inverter respectively), that both need replacing at fixed intervals -- looks like an unnecessary complication.

I don't think so.  In my Zero bikes, as it gets very hot from climbing up lots of hills, the power drops down enough to easily notice. The Energicas are more into performance so they need more than air cooling, to help prevent such from happening.

I didn't mean having active cooling was an unnecessary complication -- I've read lots of reports about Zeros overheating and thorttling power high speeds, esp. in hot weather, whereas that doesn't seem to be an issue with the Energicas.
I meant having two separate liquid cooling systems rather than just one.

[DonTom]

I meant having two separate liquid cooling systems rather than just one.

Oh, I have wondered about that as well, but I assume there is a reason.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[BigPoppa]

From my understanding the oil cooled motor is for performance reasons. More consistent performance and more predictable behavior. From what I’ve read (but yet to experience) is that the Energicas are more predictable when it comes to them going into limp-home mode vs the Zeros.

From what I’ve inferred from various articles is that the liquid cooling of the VCU is similar to the need/desire to liquid cool a high end gaming computer. The CPUs get very hot with the amount of data they’re processing and the liquid cooling helps avoid any kind of thermal lockup.

I could be wrong on any or all of the above but that’s the impression I’ve gotten from various articles.

[DonTom]

From my understanding the oil cooled motor is for performance reasons. More consistent performance and more predictable behavior. From what I’ve read (but yet to experience) is that the Energicas are more predictable when it comes to them going into limp-home mode vs the Zeros.

From what I’ve inferred from various articles is that the liquid cooling of the VCU is similar to the need/desire to liquid cool a high end gaming computer. The CPUs get very hot with the amount of data they’re processing and the liquid cooling helps avoid any kind of thermal lockup.

I could be wrong on any or all of the above but that’s the impression I’ve gotten from various articles.

So is it that oil cools the motor and the coolant cools the VCU (what does that stand for?). Does anything cool the battery other than air? And are there any heat related problems in charging (or anything else) after hard riding in very hot weather?

-Don-  Reno, NV


 

[BigPoppa]

VCU= vehicle control unit. I’m guessing it’s just Energica’s term for an ECU on steroids since the VCU has dual CPU’s for redundancy if I recall correctly and it runs a large amount of code which I believe is the main reason they don’t do over the air software updates and require any software/firmware updates to be done by a dealer.

And yes, oil is for cooling the electric motor and the coolant is for the VCU. The battery is air cooled only. There’s an opening for air that runs vertically from front to back that you can see when looking at the front of the battery pack.

The one time I did fast charge my EsseEsse9 the temp gauge did go yellow afterwards although I was a little confused since I believe it was the motor temp gauge, not the battery temp. Outside of that one time, the temp gauges have remained green, even when commuting in 100+ degree temps and charging at 110v immediately after getting home. We’ll see if it happens again next Saturday when I fast charge it at our meet up.

[DonTom]

VCU= vehicle control unit. I’m guessing it’s just Energica’s term for an ECU on steroids since the VCU has dual CPU’s for redundancy if I recall correctly and it runs a large amount of code which I believe is the main reason they don’t do over the air software updates and require any software/firmware updates to be done by a dealer.

I guess I will just have to make sure the bike has the latest updates before I buy. How long have you had yours? Is it a 2020 year model? What version is the latest and how do I check?

One thing I am concerned with is living so far from the dealer. I just wonder how much I can do myself of the routine maintenance and how much the dealer must do.

BTW, if there on on-line owner's manual (or more) for the SS9?

-Don-  Reno, NV

[BigPoppa]

Mine is a 2020 model and I’ve had it almost a month now. I’ll check my owner’s manual when I get home to see how to check the firmware version, it’s something I haven’t thought about to be honest.

Outside of firmware/software updates, I would imagine you could do pretty much everything depending on your comfort level with the electrical system. Since it is a high voltage system I would imagine there are safety concerns when working on any of the Energica’s electrical systems.

The only challenge is getting a copy of the service manual. I haven’t asked the dealer so I don’t know if it’s available to owners or if you have to be a dealer to get one. I haven’t been able to find either the owner’s manual nor the service manual online as a PDF.

If you can get a copy of the service manual and ensure your work meets the specifications outlined in there, then by law I don’t think a warranty claim can be denied due to lack of maintenance as long as you can provide receipts for supplies and affirm all work has been done according to published specifications.