Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[JaimeC]

At the time this article was written, the Strike is still very much "Vaporware."

https://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/2020-electric-motorcycle-spec-shootout

[BigPoppa]

True, although the Strike's competition is really the Energica Ego...sportbike to sportbike.

When I first read the initial info on the Strike I was very excited but now, nearly 6 months later it really feels like the Skully fiasco all over again. For the kind of HP and torque values they list and to not offer TC as at least an option is a non-starter for me. Not to mention no dealer network, no easy way to order other than signing over a check for $10k (let's face it, the Carbon version is the only version worth getting), and not a single "first ride review" or delivery to a real customer.

IMHO the only real players at the moment are Zero and Energica, I don't really count HD since I really don't see the Livewire selling in any real numbers to be considered a serious contender.

[RFlashman]

I agree with your thoughts, but I do consider Harley a serious contender. Their vast dealer network means they will likely move at least 500 units (I am assuming at least 5 per dealer). Their investment in those initial 150 dealers is substantial (L3 chargers, interactive displays, staff training, etc.). It will get them a foot in the market. Other than it's mostly charging related shortcomings and high price, it does seem to be a solid product. A follow up model with L2 support, improved L3 charging, and more competitive pricing could really light the market on fire.

[BigPoppa]

If HD does a follow-up to the LiveWire with competitive specs and at least a $5k lower price I would have to consider one the next time I'm in the market for an e-moto. I hope they don't let the LiveWire languish as is and focus on the smaller e-bikes instead.

[wavelet]

I agree with your thoughts, but I do consider Harley a serious contender. Their vast dealer network means they will likely move at least 500 units (I am assuming at least 5 per dealer). Their investment in those initial 150 dealers is substantial (L3 chargers, interactive displays, staff training, etc.). It will get them a foot in the market. Other than it's mostly charging related shortcomings and high price, it does seem to be a solid product. A follow up model with L2 support, improved L3 charging, and more competitive pricing could really light the market on fire.

The real risk is that if the first Livewire model fails in the market (as most people seem to think, including current EV bike owners who also ride Harleys) H-D and the mainstream manufacturers will conclude that the buying public isn't ready for EV bikes yet and/or that EV bikes aren't ready for prime time, not that it's just a pricing issue.

 

[Richard230]

I agree with your thoughts, but I do consider Harley a serious contender. Their vast dealer network means they will likely move at least 500 units (I am assuming at least 5 per dealer). Their investment in those initial 150 dealers is substantial (L3 chargers, interactive displays, staff training, etc.). It will get them a foot in the market. Other than it's mostly charging related shortcomings and high price, it does seem to be a solid product. A follow up model with L2 support, improved L3 charging, and more competitive pricing could really light the market on fire.

The real risk is that if the first Livewire model fails in the market (as most people seem to think, including current EV bike owners who also ride Harleys) H-D and the mainstream manufacturers will conclude that the buying public isn't ready for EV bikes yet and/or that EV bikes aren't ready for prime time, not that it's just a pricing issue.

What you describe sounds a lot like Victory's Brammo Empulse purchase and marketing experience.  It sure didn't take long for Polaris to throw the Victory brand and their just refurbished electric motorcycle into the trash can. 

[NEW2elec]

I think Polaris would like to think it's on the shelf not trash. 
An old post about Energica's IPO showed they had only sold 8 bikes up to that point which was like a year after it came out.  They had an over $30k price and then dropped the price and have had good sales ever since.
I think HD will go the same path.
With Triumph now getting into electric bikes and Honda starting up it's electric car models it's just a matter of WHEN, not IF any more.

[wavelet]

I think Polaris would like to think it's on the shelf not trash. 
An old post about Energica's IPO showed they had only sold 8 bikes up to that point which was like a year after it came out.  They had an over $30k price and then dropped the price and have had good sales ever since.
I think HD will go the same path.
With Triumph now getting into electric bikes and Honda starting up it's electric car models it's just a matter of WHEN, not IF any more.

Well, we all hope (-:
But the real question is when a company commits to volume (or at least lowish-volume but still series) production, rather than just toe-dipping in concepts.
Ducati also said back 2017 that's it's thinking about electrics, and their CEO said the beginning of this year that "the future is electric", but an interview like this one makes me think the vendors are being very cautious w.r.t. committment and that it's not going to happen anytime in the next 2-3 years.

In particular, the Big 4 have only been talking, at least publicly, about scooters and lightweight dirt bikes so far.
As for Triumph's TE-1 project, AFAIK, they're talking about an electric powertrain being ready mid-2021, which means an actual bike model for sale early 2022 at the earliest.

[Bill822]

The problem with Polaris/Brammo is that they bought a bike. they didn't develop it in house. The Brammo was essentially an unfinished project, not up to OEM standards. It would take considerable design and engineering effort to make the original Brammo a solid product. The Victory division clearly didn't have those resources and Polaris/Indian hasn't really shown the inclination yet.

I do think something could be done with the core Brammo product. Having gears could find a place in the electric bike world, but maybe just 2 or 3 rather than 5. It would provide some product differentiation and potentially longer range. Indian has seen some success stepping away from their core heavy cruiser market with the scout and flat tracker. Maybe they will start developing the Brammo design. Probably not, but could happen.

[wavelet]

Having gears could find a place in the electric bike world, but maybe just 2 or 3 rather than 5. It would provide some product differentiation and potentially longer range.

I've been wondering about that last aspect... Are you familiar with the relevant considerations?
I know torque curves for electric motors are very different than ICE's, but they're still not completely flat over the entire range. I thought maybe a lowish-power + high-geared mode might still be worth it for highish-speed motorway cruising, energy wise, like what used to be called an "overdrive" gear on cars.

After all, with current tech, electric bikes already have completely sufficient range for most commutes, and the primary missing piece is no-acceleration high speed riding.

[Richard230]

In 2010 Brammo announced that they would be producing the direct-drive Empulse.  After seeing the prototype and meeting Brammo Brian at a Scuderia in San Francisco in February 2011, I pre-ordered one. See attached photo. Then Brammo announced that they would not be manufacturing the direct-drive version but would be redesigning the Empulse to insert an Italian 6-speed transmission and clutch into the drive train system.  This process took another two years and most of those 1000 + pre-orders just kind of faded away.

Not long after the 6-speed version was announced I met the Brammo founder (Craig) at the Sonoma Racetrack and asked him why he would not be producing both the original direct-drive model first and follow it up with the 6-speed version later. That way they could enter the market quickly, build up a reputation for a performance EV and generate new customers and cash flow.  If the 6-speed bike was an improvement they could follow up with that version and up-sell it to their customers later.

What he told me was that he was in the business just for the fun of it and that he was sure that experienced motorcycle riders would want the fun of shifting a transmission and that was what he was going to do.  I told him that I was potentially a customer for the direct-drive Empulse and if he was going to add a lot of complexity to a completely new technology then I would have to rethink my EV purchase plans and go check out Zero's product.  Craig didn't seem too concerned about loosing a customer. (And that was when I started to realize that some EV startup founders were flakes when it came to building up a sustainable business.)

So, in 2012 I purchased my first direct-drive Zero S with a battery pack of about the same capacity as the original Empulse was claimed to have.

[Bill822]

...
I know torque curves for electric motors are very different than ICE's, 
...
After all, with current tech, electric bikes already have completely sufficient range for most commutes, and the primary missing piece is no-acceleration high speed riding.

There are a couple potential advantages to adding gearing, and a couple big downsides.

Using a lower gear ratio provides stronger acceleration as everyone knows, but it also reduces the current the motor draws when starting. This increases efficiency at low speed and potentially range. Using a higher gear at high speed keeps the motor in its sweet spot, again improving both performance and efficiency. Having lots of gears or a CVT would improve both performance and efficiency... but not really.

Aside from the mechanical complexity, cost, and weight (not minor considerations) each transition power takes between the motor shaft and the rear wheel comes at some cost of power loss. I have read many times that ICE engines lose 10-15% of crankshaft power to the driveline. This is unavoidable in ICE engines which provide peak performance in only one narrow RPM range.

Zero uses no gear reduction but uses a large diameter motor rotor to provide adequate torque. Energica and Harley each have a single fixed gear reduction before the belt or chain pulley. Adding a single additional gear option could allow the use of a smaller motor for longer range or provide better high and low speed performance for the same motor.

It seems to me that a single planetary gear set that can be be locked with a dog or friction clutch could be attached directly to the motor housing of new bike designs. A friction clutch could be managed seamlessly as in an automatic transmission while a more efficient dog clutch would require more careful engagement (as clutch and synchros provide in a manual automotive transmission). When locked the clutch makes the planetary gear a direct drive, eliminating mechanical losses. Additional clutches could reverse the power flow through the planetary gear set providing an overdrive but this isn't really needed.

Now, whether this would all be worth the cost in complexity, weight, and the almighty dollar, that may have already been decided by the market. Nobody thinks our bikes are cheap. Adding perhaps 1000USD and a maintenance schedule may not be worth it, especially in the small motor/small battery bikes where it would provide the greatest benefit. If someone only wants a higher top speed they can sacrifice low speed acceleration and change the pulley/sprocket final drive ratio. People do that today with both higher and lower ratios.

SR/F dyno chart: https://imgur.com/a/VyuVAf8

quick planetary gear 101:

[Richard230]

And don't forget the space that a clutch and transmission would take up on a very space-limited motorcycle chassis. Perhaps a larger battery pack would make better use of this space than a 6-speed transmission. 

[Bill822]

No doubt that's what Zero thought.  A two speed as I described above would add about 3 inches to the motor if built into the motor housing. That may be doable on the Energica and almost certainly could be fit into a design like the Livewire. Realistically though, anything like this would need to be in the bike design from the beginning.  OEMs (besides Brammo) have chosen not to use any variable ratio drives. I'm sure they have good reasons. Riding a Brammo once showed me that there are advantages to having a couple gears.

[Doug S]

...there are advantages to having a couple gears.

Of course there are. But with the extremely broad powerband (it's not really even a powerband like an ICE has) of these motors, the upsides just aren't that great. Some people think they'd get better range with a tall freeway gear, but I really don't believe so. The only real advantage you'd see would be torque multiplication at low speeds with a low gear. And there are downsides:

1) Addeed weight.
2) Loss of efficiency.
3) Need for lubrication.
4) Which means oil changes, or at least an occasional greasing. Possibly an oil filter that needs changing. Oil pump?
5) Possible leaks...one of the thing I love best about the Zeros is that there are NO fluids on the bike except for brake fluid and shock absorber fluid. Leaks suck.
6) Another drivetrain component that can fail. Granted, simple gearboxes are pretty reliable, but you're more than doubling the number of components in the drivetrain.

Why do that if the upsides aren't pretty substantial? I'm with Zero on this one -- no gearbox is necessary.